Let me add what specificly I (so it does not apply to everyone) find fun in terms of combat mechanics.
Toon-side:
- on demand abilities with CDs. For example, on-demand burst DPS from a arcane mage in WOW (arcane power, trinket, ...), get out of a situation abilities (blink, invisibility, ice block ...). I need to judge when to use the abilities the best to stay alive and maximize my DPS.
- procs .. like magic missles .. and you have to decide if you want to use the ability in a small time window
- interactions of different abilities .. for example, the tier 13 mage armor has a set bonus to reduce the CD of an ability depending on the number of stacks of a benefitial buff, so i have to decide on WHEN to use the ability depending on the stack number.
Boss fight side:
- phases with DPS buff, or phases that need lots of movement .... so i have to know when to do burst DPS and not. It often make a HUGE amount of difference in terms of the DPS output.
- an there are many special mechanics that many MMOs have dreamt up. The deathwing fight splitting into two parts is fun. The healing dragon raid boss back in WOTLK is pretty different. And i remember the vampire biting mechanics fondly.
I like those too, or, let me put it this way, as for toon mechanics, it is all fun and games until you realize that due to streamlining, anything what seems to be fun is in reality "mandatory", lets just say we have a class with 6 attack moves and 3 cooldowns, then a class with 2 attack moves and one cooldown, balance dictates that they have comparable dps, thus , in some cases, we are not actually playing against the boss, but against our toon, for no reason...
And yes, i am a bit cynical in this
I have no problem playing against my own, or other toons. In fact, if you play WOW, the "challenge" of playign a DPS is very seldom to down the boss, but to stay on top of the chart and do better DPS than last time.
THere is NOTHING wrong with that design approach. And I would also say that at least in WOW, while each class are using these ideas, they "feel" very different. i played both a arcane mage and a marksman hunter. BOTH range DPS, but the things you pay attention to, and the way you use your abiltiies are completely different.
Yes, you have described your OPINION quite thoroughly, but while one has to admire your writing style, it still misses some study or source, or examples (preferably something more complex).
For instance, you used poker as a example, but within the confines of a mmo system we are not playing against humans (outside pvp, the unknown element), but against predefined scripts, you accept random variance from the boss (a weak poker player with a strong hand, or a strong poker player with a weak hand, someone having a tell or not), but why not from the toon (you read the opponent incorrectly, get a weak hand, you drop your hand because you are too nervous) ?
Um, I'm not talking about my opinion. I'm talking about what other players observably, objectively have shown preference for. Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems where player skill is highly rewarded. Most important, they don't involve the game randomly screwing them in the form of abilities randomly failing to work as advertised.
In Mario your jump button never randomly fails.
In Ninja Gaiden your attack button never randomly fails.
In any good FPS your gun never randomly jams.
In any good RTS your units never randomly disobey orders.
In any good RPG your spells never fizzle.
In Chess your moves never fail to happen.
Player commands always work in good, well-made games.
Well, apart from the "my opinion is the truth" paragraph, because you cannot really claim to know what all the other players have preference for without anything supporting it, lets see:
Ninja Gaiden & Mario , action game and a platform jumper? Really? You bash a slot machine and then this? How about we talk about throwing dice vs guessing a number?
FPS - bullets disperse, say CS, in realistic ones your hand with the gun sways, PvP aspect dominant
RTS - in C&C units miss (a good example, artillery can "miss" one square further than its max range, which was out of range of defense towers, nice fun mechanic, what i was talking about from the start), PvP aspect dominant
RPG - thac0, saving throws in the older ones, resists in the newer ones (i specifically made a difference in a older post between your spell not going off and it not "landing", but you brushed it off, well, here you go...)
Chess - PvP aspect dominant (and i heard the players can be so under stress that a random heart attack can happen )
That you take games that dont have failing abilities (in any way) as the only ones which are good and well made, is again, YOUR OPINION.
I am really starting to feel like i am talking to a crazed environmentalist, who while is not entirely wrong, tryes to make me go live in the woods because IT IS GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE ONE AND ONLY WAY TO SAVE THE PLANET!
Um, I'm not talking about my opinion. I'm talking about what other players observably, objectively have shown preference for. Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems where player skill is highly rewarded. Most important, they don't involve the game randomly screwing them in the form of abilities randomly failing to work as advertised.
In Mario your jump button never randomly fails.
In Ninja Gaiden your attack button never randomly fails.
In any good FPS your gun never randomly jams.
In any good RTS your units never randomly disobey orders.
In any good RPG your spells never fizzle.
In Chess your moves never fail to happen.
Player commands always work in good, well-made games.
Well that is not true. WOW is obviously "doing well" by any measure. There are a lot of random elements in the combat mechanics. Examples:
- procs .. many abilities (arcane missle, pyroblast...) and buffs are triggered randomly and you need to react to it (and in my opinion, that ADDS to the fun of the combat).
- critical damage. This is obviously random.
- there also random boss mecahnics that will target a RANDOM player.
So nope. Your assertation that " Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems" is simply not true.
In fact, if you look at theorycrafting in WOW, stochastic modeling and monte carlo simulations are used, instead of deterministic models. The key reason is that the stochastic aspect is important in WOW's mechanics.
Um, I'm not talking about my opinion. I'm talking about what other players observably, objectively have shown preference for. Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems where player skill is highly rewarded. Most important, they don't involve the game randomly screwing them in the form of abilities randomly failing to work as advertised.
In Mario your jump button never randomly fails.
In Ninja Gaiden your attack button never randomly fails.
In any good FPS your gun never randomly jams.
In any good RTS your units never randomly disobey orders.
In any good RPG your spells never fizzle.
In Chess your moves never fail to happen.
Player commands always work in good, well-made games.
Well that is not true. WOW is obviously "doing well" by any measure. There are a lot of random elements in the combat mechanics. Examples:
- procs .. many abilities (arcane missle, pyroblast...) and buffs are triggered randomly and you need to react to it (and in my opinion, that ADDS to the fun of the combat).
- critical damage. This is obviously random.
- there also random boss mecahnics that will target a RANDOM player.
So nope. Your assertation that " Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems" is simply not true.
In fact, if you look at theorycrafting in WOW, stochastic modeling and monte carlo simulations are used, instead of deterministic models. The key reason is that the stochastic aspect is important in WOW's mechanics.
WoW, for once I am in full support of something Narius posted.
I have no problem playing against my own, or other toons. In fact, if you play WOW, the "challenge" of playign a DPS is very seldom to down the boss, but to stay on top of the chart and do better DPS than last time.
THere is NOTHING wrong with that design approach. And I would also say that at least in WOW, while each class are using these ideas, they "feel" very different. i played both a arcane mage and a marksman hunter. BOTH range DPS, but the things you pay attention to, and the way you use your abiltiies are completely different.
I meant it more like playing against your own toon, the one you are controlling, not in terms of playing against someone else with the same toon type.
Its the old cost-benefit balance problem if applyed to a specific toon, if we say the cost is the effort put in (more abilities can mean a more complex rotation, more effort to do it correctly), and the benefit is your dps (since in the recent years we have eliminated nearly all other benefits AND many players discount all other benefits except dps), should this be balanced? Should a more easy to play toon have the same benefit as the harder to play?
You can probably guess what my opinion is, and if you want, start a thread, this is a very flammable topic, and i was hoping to avoid it Sorry.
I have no problem playing against my own, or other toons. In fact, if you play WOW, the "challenge" of playign a DPS is very seldom to down the boss, but to stay on top of the chart and do better DPS than last time.
THere is NOTHING wrong with that design approach. And I would also say that at least in WOW, while each class are using these ideas, they "feel" very different. i played both a arcane mage and a marksman hunter. BOTH range DPS, but the things you pay attention to, and the way you use your abiltiies are completely different.
I meant it more like playing against your own toon, the one you are controlling, not in terms of playing against someone else with the same toon type.
Its the old cost-benefit balance problem if applyed to a specific toon, if we say the cost is the effort put in (more abilities can mean a more complex rotation, more effort to do it correctly), and the benefit is your dps (since in the recent years we have eliminated nearly all other benefits AND many players discount all other benefits except dps), should this be balanced? Should a more easy to play toon have the same benefit as the harder to play?
You can probably guess what my opinion is, and if you want, start a thread, this is a very flammable topic, and i was hoping to avoid it Sorry.
I probably won't disagree with you on THIS point. A game can be assessible but yet optimal DPS is difficult to achieve. WOW does this to certain extent by making boss easy to down (in some modes) and while many cannot optimize their DPS.
If you just look at the fire mage. It has a rotation (keeping DOT up), reacting to proc and more importantly, making a decision of when to use combustion. So a good player and a bad player can play the same toon with the same gear but have a very different dps result.
In fact, this is further complicate by the boss mechanics.
I have no problem playing against my own, or other toons. In fact, if you play WOW, the "challenge" of playign a DPS is very seldom to down the boss, but to stay on top of the chart and do better DPS than last time.
THere is NOTHING wrong with that design approach. And I would also say that at least in WOW, while each class are using these ideas, they "feel" very different. i played both a arcane mage and a marksman hunter. BOTH range DPS, but the things you pay attention to, and the way you use your abiltiies are completely different.
I meant it more like playing against your own toon, the one you are controlling, not in terms of playing against someone else with the same toon type.
Its the old cost-benefit balance problem if applyed to a specific toon, if we say the cost is the effort put in (more abilities can mean a more complex rotation, more effort to do it correctly), and the benefit is your dps (since in the recent years we have eliminated nearly all other benefits AND many players discount all other benefits except dps), should this be balanced? Should a more easy to play toon have the same benefit as the harder to play?
You can probably guess what my opinion is, and if you want, start a thread, this is a very flammable topic, and i was hoping to avoid it Sorry.
I probably won't disagree with you on THIS point. A game can be assessible but yet optimal DPS is difficult to achieve. WOW does this to certain extent by making boss easy to down (in some modes) and while many cannot optimize their DPS.
If you just look at the fire mage. It has a rotation (keeping DOT up), reacting to proc and more importantly, making a decision of when to use combustion. So a good player and a bad player can play the same toon with the same gear but have a very different dps result.
In fact, this is further complicate by the boss mechanics.
A game that requires that kind of leader board system to keep people playing is fundamentally flawed. Yes you can make the whole game experience about optimizing DPS, but its not supposed to be that way. Just because you can do it like that doesn't mean you should.
I think another reason communities aren't as strong today as they were back then is the huge mass of abilities you're constantly button-mashing to get the combat over with as quickly as possible.
Having played a tank and a healer in EQ, I could take part in a group or even raid encounter and still chat w/ my group or guild, and carry on in private tells, too. While I appreciate having lots of interesting abilities, I think it detracts from the social aspect of grouping - NOT GAMING - but grouping, because you're caught up in button-mashing and if you're not constantly firing your abilities someone will give you grief for it.
One of my all-time favorite jokes to play on my guildies in EQ was to pull too many mobs in a heavily camped area so the enchanter (crowd-control class) would get frantic trying to mezz/lull/charm all the adds, and then asking him questions which I know he couldn't answer in chat because he was too busy trying to keep us alive. Good times!
I really enjoyed your post Maelstrom. It brought me back to playing Final Fantasy 11. I love how in that game you can be fighting And chatting at the same time. The combat is slower where you can hold a conversation and really have a relaxing time with your group. It allowed you to meet and make friends. Nothing like finding an awesome group you really like and sit in a spot chopping away at mobs for 8 hours all whilst chatting, laughing and having a fun time. The combat was made no less difficult because of the slower pace as well. Thank you for sharing this anecdote Maelstrom, really made me smile.
OP I approve and agree with many of your sentiments.
A game that requires that kind of leader board system to keep people playing is fundamentally flawed. Yes you can make the whole game experience about optimizing DPS, but its not supposed to be that way. Just because you can do it like that doesn't mean you should.
Who decide what is fundamental and what is flawed? It is a GAME. If a lot of players think it is fun .. then it is fun and a legitimate way to play. In fact, if i play this way, you canNOT stop me from doing so, can you?
It is arrogant to dictate what a player "should" do in a GAME. We are not talking about a job here. Whatever is fun is fair game. Certainly you do not agree and you want a game that you dictate "normative behavior".
Sorry i just won't play that game. What about freedom and choices? I thought you are for freedom in games?
Well that is not true. WOW is obviously "doing well" by any measure. There are a lot of random elements in the combat mechanics. Examples:
- procs .. many abilities (arcane missle, pyroblast...) and buffs are triggered randomly and you need to react to it (and in my opinion, that ADDS to the fun of the combat).
- critical damage. This is obviously random.
- there also random boss mecahnics that will target a RANDOM player.
So nope. Your assertation that " Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems" is simply not true.
In fact, if you look at theorycrafting in WOW, stochastic modeling and monte carlo simulations are used, instead of deterministic models. The key reason is that the stochastic aspect is important in WOW's mechanics.
How many times in WOW do you press a button and that ability doesn't function?
If you have sufficient +hit, the answer is never.
Random isn't bad. Randomly having your abilities fail to work is terrible.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well that is not true. WOW is obviously "doing well" by any measure. There are a lot of random elements in the combat mechanics. Examples:
- procs .. many abilities (arcane missle, pyroblast...) and buffs are triggered randomly and you need to react to it (and in my opinion, that ADDS to the fun of the combat).
- critical damage. This is obviously random.
- there also random boss mecahnics that will target a RANDOM player.
So nope. Your assertation that " Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems" is simply not true.
In fact, if you look at theorycrafting in WOW, stochastic modeling and monte carlo simulations are used, instead of deterministic models. The key reason is that the stochastic aspect is important in WOW's mechanics.
How many times in WOW do you press a button and that ability doesn't function?
If you have sufficient +hit, the answer is never.
Random isn't bad. Randomly having your abilities fail to work is terrible.
That is irrelevant to the statement "Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems" which claims WOW is "overwhelmingly deterministic".
Proc is not deterministic.
Crit is not.
Targeting a RANDOM player is not.
The point is very clean. I said NOTHING about if ability random to fail is good or bad. I am merely pointing out characterizing WOW as "overwhelming deterministic" is just WRONG.
Yes we need this, I am playing the trial for Istaria currently (Horizons) and am having 10x the fun then I had in SWTOR. The in-depth sandboxy character customization of schools and crafting and combine that it actually feels like a "World" as oppose to the game I mentioned above.
THANK YOU!!!!! been trying to remember the name of that MMO. Was having a talk about good crafting systems in another thread and wanted to add that game to the list.
You can't scale the difficulty or change the objectives in many games. I know games like WoW now have scaled dungeons and most is soloable, but that didn't used to be the case and one of those example of the OP is EQ, but there are plenty more examples of games where you can't just scale the difficulty as you please.
Of course you can scale the difficulty. I change the difficulty of every game I play simply by changing my goals of what I will attempt to accomplish and what taboos my character follows.
Disclaimer: I do tend to prefer easier content and simply avoid games that force grouping
This isent ment to be a rude comment. i just wanted to add that befor i posted my responce to your post.
If you tend to perfer easier content and avoid games that force you to group then why even play MMOs in the first place?
Originally posted by kantseeme Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by CalmOceans
You can't scale the difficulty or change the objectives in many games. I know games like WoW now have scaled dungeons and most is soloable, but that didn't used to be the case and one of those example of the OP is EQ, but there are plenty more examples of games where you can't just scale the difficulty as you please.
Of course you can scale the difficulty. I change the difficulty of every game I play simply by changing my goals of what I will attempt to accomplish and what taboos my character follows. Disclaimer: I do tend to prefer easier content and simply avoid games that force grouping This isent ment to be a rude comment. i just wanted to add that befor i posted my responce to your post.
If you tend to perfer easier content and avoid games that force you to group then why even play MMOs in the first place?
MMOs, in general, are not really hard. They never have been. Not in terms of ability to complete the content. They've always been hard in a, "I really need more time to do this" kind of way. So 'easier' MMOs are really just MMOs that take less time to do something you want to do. 'Harder' MMOs are really just MMOs where it takes longer to something you want to do, and where possibly the amount of time it takes to do it is part of the fun.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That is irrelevant to the statement "Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems" which claims WOW is "overwhelmingly deterministic".
Proc is not deterministic.
Crit is not.
Targeting a RANDOM player is not.
The point is very clean. I said NOTHING about if ability random to fail is good or bad. I am merely pointing out characterizing WOW as "overwhelming deterministic" is just WRONG.
The entire thread of this discussion is rooted in abilities randomly not doing what they're supposed to do without a clear reason why.
If you jump in mid-stream and take something out of contenxt, you're going to jump to the wrong conclusion like that. Random is fine. Abilities randomly not doing what they say they'll do isn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That is irrelevant to the statement "Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems" which claims WOW is "overwhelmingly deterministic".
Proc is not deterministic.
Crit is not.
Targeting a RANDOM player is not.
The point is very clean. I said NOTHING about if ability random to fail is good or bad. I am merely pointing out characterizing WOW as "overwhelming deterministic" is just WRONG.
The entire thread of this discussion is rooted in abilities randomly not doing what they're supposed to do without a clear reason why.
If you jump in mid-stream and take something out of contenxt, you're going to jump to the wrong conclusion like that. Random is fine. Abilities randomly not doing what they say they'll do isn't.
Well, we started with resists, so within that frame of reference, the reason is clear, the ability was resisted
Just as nariusseldon said, the difference between that and ther other random things is mostly the cosmetic effect (you dont get "proc failed" message after every spell) and the magnitude of impact a single occurence or a "streak" has on combat.
We may argue about the "best" impact size, but in the end its about you liking bananas of the same size and i like mine different sizes (and mine require less time to sort ).
Even if EVE is not your kind of game, it can be a beast to learn and even tougher to master, but it's also very rewarding, both for PvE and PvP. I've played it off and on for years, the reason I always go back is becuase todays MMO's are weaksauce in comparison.
The shear amount of options available to you in EVE, beatdown everyone else, and isnt that what we really want in an MMO? Not being lead around on a linear path is something every MMO player shares.
Will we ever see another MMO with this kind of depth? I hope so!!
I havn't play wow for 3 years. But it's funny how everyone call wow easy.
I remember the dev on wow forum says something like 1% of the population were able to complete all the raid instance. If only 1% of the population can finish all the raid instance it's not easy.
The arena combat is also not easy. Let's say you want to be the top 5% PvPer, then you have to beat 95% of the population, that's not easy.
Anyway, that's a long time ago, I heard they make wow raid alot easier. That's just my comment. I havn't play EQ, maybe raiding in there is even harder and 0.00001% of the population can complete all the raids. But to me things like exp loss isn't hard, it's just inconvenient.
Comments
I have no problem playing against my own, or other toons. In fact, if you play WOW, the "challenge" of playign a DPS is very seldom to down the boss, but to stay on top of the chart and do better DPS than last time.
THere is NOTHING wrong with that design approach. And I would also say that at least in WOW, while each class are using these ideas, they "feel" very different. i played both a arcane mage and a marksman hunter. BOTH range DPS, but the things you pay attention to, and the way you use your abiltiies are completely different.
Well, apart from the "my opinion is the truth" paragraph, because you cannot really claim to know what all the other players have preference for without anything supporting it, lets see:
Ninja Gaiden & Mario , action game and a platform jumper? Really? You bash a slot machine and then this? How about we talk about throwing dice vs guessing a number?
FPS - bullets disperse, say CS, in realistic ones your hand with the gun sways, PvP aspect dominant
RTS - in C&C units miss (a good example, artillery can "miss" one square further than its max range, which was out of range of defense towers, nice fun mechanic, what i was talking about from the start), PvP aspect dominant
RPG - thac0, saving throws in the older ones, resists in the newer ones (i specifically made a difference in a older post between your spell not going off and it not "landing", but you brushed it off, well, here you go...)
Chess - PvP aspect dominant (and i heard the players can be so under stress that a random heart attack can happen
)
That you take games that dont have failing abilities (in any way) as the only ones which are good and well made, is again, YOUR OPINION.
I am really starting to feel like i am talking to a crazed environmentalist, who while is not entirely wrong, tryes to make me go live in the woods because IT IS GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE ONE AND ONLY WAY TO SAVE THE PLANET!
Well that is not true. WOW is obviously "doing well" by any measure. There are a lot of random elements in the combat mechanics. Examples:
- procs .. many abilities (arcane missle, pyroblast...) and buffs are triggered randomly and you need to react to it (and in my opinion, that ADDS to the fun of the combat).
- critical damage. This is obviously random.
- there also random boss mecahnics that will target a RANDOM player.
So nope. Your assertation that " Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems" is simply not true.
In fact, if you look at theorycrafting in WOW, stochastic modeling and monte carlo simulations are used, instead of deterministic models. The key reason is that the stochastic aspect is important in WOW's mechanics.
WoW, for once I am in full support of something Narius posted.
I meant it more like playing against your own toon, the one you are controlling, not in terms of playing against someone else with the same toon type.
Its the old cost-benefit balance problem if applyed to a specific toon, if we say the cost is the effort put in (more abilities can mean a more complex rotation, more effort to do it correctly), and the benefit is your dps (since in the recent years we have eliminated nearly all other benefits AND many players discount all other benefits except dps), should this be balanced? Should a more easy to play toon have the same benefit as the harder to play?
You can probably guess what my opinion is, and if you want, start a thread, this is a very flammable topic, and i was hoping to avoid it
Sorry.
I probably won't disagree with you on THIS point. A game can be assessible but yet optimal DPS is difficult to achieve. WOW does this to certain extent by making boss easy to down (in some modes) and while many cannot optimize their DPS.
If you just look at the fire mage. It has a rotation (keeping DOT up), reacting to proc and more importantly, making a decision of when to use combustion. So a good player and a bad player can play the same toon with the same gear but have a very different dps result.
In fact, this is further complicate by the boss mechanics.
A game that requires that kind of leader board system to keep people playing is fundamentally flawed. Yes you can make the whole game experience about optimizing DPS, but its not supposed to be that way. Just because you can do it like that doesn't mean you should.
I really enjoyed your post Maelstrom. It brought me back to playing Final Fantasy 11. I love how in that game you can be fighting And chatting at the same time. The combat is slower where you can hold a conversation and really have a relaxing time with your group. It allowed you to meet and make friends. Nothing like finding an awesome group you really like and sit in a spot chopping away at mobs for 8 hours all whilst chatting, laughing and having a fun time. The combat was made no less difficult because of the slower pace as well. Thank you for sharing this anecdote Maelstrom, really made me smile.
OP I approve and agree with many of your sentiments.
Who decide what is fundamental and what is flawed? It is a GAME. If a lot of players think it is fun .. then it is fun and a legitimate way to play. In fact, if i play this way, you canNOT stop me from doing so, can you?
It is arrogant to dictate what a player "should" do in a GAME. We are not talking about a job here. Whatever is fun is fair game. Certainly you do not agree and you want a game that you dictate "normative behavior".
Sorry i just won't play that game. What about freedom and choices? I thought you are for freedom in games?
How many times in WOW do you press a button and that ability doesn't function?
If you have sufficient +hit, the answer is never.
Random isn't bad. Randomly having your abilities fail to work is terrible.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That is irrelevant to the statement "Look at the PVE games that do well (including those outside MMORPGs, as this is a universal trait of game design): they are overwhelmingly deterministic systems" which claims WOW is "overwhelmingly deterministic".
Proc is not deterministic.
Crit is not.
Targeting a RANDOM player is not.
The point is very clean. I said NOTHING about if ability random to fail is good or bad. I am merely pointing out characterizing WOW as "overwhelming deterministic" is just WRONG.
THANK YOU!!!!! been trying to remember the name of that MMO. Was having a talk about good crafting systems in another thread and wanted to add that game to the list.
This isent ment to be a rude comment. i just wanted to add that befor i posted my responce to your post.
If you tend to perfer easier content and avoid games that force you to group then why even play MMOs in the first place?
Disclaimer: I do tend to prefer easier content and simply avoid games that force grouping
This isent ment to be a rude comment. i just wanted to add that befor i posted my responce to your post.
If you tend to perfer easier content and avoid games that force you to group then why even play MMOs in the first place?
MMOs, in general, are not really hard. They never have been. Not in terms of ability to complete the content. They've always been hard in a, "I really need more time to do this" kind of way. So 'easier' MMOs are really just MMOs that take less time to do something you want to do. 'Harder' MMOs are really just MMOs where it takes longer to something you want to do, and where possibly the amount of time it takes to do it is part of the fun.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The entire thread of this discussion is rooted in abilities randomly not doing what they're supposed to do without a clear reason why.
If you jump in mid-stream and take something out of contenxt, you're going to jump to the wrong conclusion like that. Random is fine. Abilities randomly not doing what they say they'll do isn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well, we started with resists, so within that frame of reference, the reason is clear, the ability was resisted
Just as nariusseldon said, the difference between that and ther other random things is mostly the cosmetic effect (you dont get "proc failed" message after every spell) and the magnitude of impact a single occurence or a "streak" has on combat.
We may argue about the "best" impact size, but in the end its about you liking bananas of the same size and i like mine different sizes (and mine require less time to sort
).
Nothing tops EVE online for "meaty" MMO's.
Even if EVE is not your kind of game, it can be a beast to learn and even tougher to master, but it's also very rewarding, both for PvE and PvP. I've played it off and on for years, the reason I always go back is becuase todays MMO's are weaksauce in comparison.
The shear amount of options available to you in EVE, beatdown everyone else, and isnt that what we really want in an MMO? Not being lead around on a linear path is something every MMO player shares.
Will we ever see another MMO with this kind of depth? I hope so!!
I havn't play wow for 3 years. But it's funny how everyone call wow easy.
I remember the dev on wow forum says something like 1% of the population were able to complete all the raid instance. If only 1% of the population can finish all the raid instance it's not easy.
The arena combat is also not easy. Let's say you want to be the top 5% PvPer, then you have to beat 95% of the population, that's not easy.
Anyway, that's a long time ago, I heard they make wow raid alot easier. That's just my comment. I havn't play EQ, maybe raiding in there is even harder and 0.00001% of the population can complete all the raids. But to me things like exp loss isn't hard, it's just inconvenient.