MMORPGs are no longer immersive (+ Raph Koster Article)

AutemOx

I just came across a recent artcie by Raph Koster, known for his work in MUDs, UO, and SWG.  It is about immersion, what it is, and how developers have lost video games immersion in exchange for a wider audience.

"Is immersion a core game virtue?" - Raph Koster (LINK)

Games didn’t start out immersive. Nobody was getting sucked into the world of Mancala or the intricate world building of Go. Oh, people could be mesmerized, certainly, or in a state of flow whilst playing. But they were not immersed in the sense of being transported to another world. For that we had books.    

...   Things that we once considered essential to games drift in and out of fashion. And I think immersion is one of those.

 

Immersion does not make a lot of sense in a mobile, interruptible world. It comes from spending hours at something. An the fact is that as games go mainstream, they are played in small bites far more often than they are played in long solo sessions. The market adapts — this reaches more people, so the budgets divert, the publishers’ attention diverts, the developers’ creative attention diverts.    ...

Read More >>

I thought that the article was incredibly insightful and and chilling.  It really does describe the current climate of MMOs and the way that things have changed from making virtual worlds that players can lose themselves in into making quick cash.  It probably started in 2002 and 2003, when MEO was cancelled to be replaced by the linear LOTRO and WoW was released.  And of course in 2004 when SWG was changed to be more mainstream.

In my opinion, what it really comes down to is the industry selling out.  The people in charge of these companies are gamers (like Smedley of SoE), and once contributed to quality immersive games.  Now they squabble to follow mainstream market trends and copy previous successes to a T.

 

Heres something interesting that reveals some of Raph's feelings about the direction his industry has gone in:

I mourn. I mourn the gradual loss of deep immersion and the trappings of geekery that I love. I see the ways in which the worlds I once dove into headlong have become incredibly expensive endeavors, movies-with-button-presses far more invested in telling me their story, rather than letting me tell my own.

 I really feel sorry for him...  I have always been a game designer at heart and now I am very glad that I am going to optometry school instead of attempting to participate in the game industry.  I often wonder why it has been so long since Raph has worked on  a AAA mmorpg; he could probably get a decent job as a designer; he has a ton of experience.  And I think I understand now that he is unwilling to sell out the way other MUD/game designers have.

 

UPDATE:  Koster has added another article on his site on the same topic:

http://www.raphkoster.com/2012/01/14/faq-on-the-immersion-post/#more-4027

Bladestrom

Wonderful.  There have been many debates where raph's arguements have been taken out of context to actually argue the benefits of fast rewards themepark hell blah blah blah.  The man knows his stuff and is respected, and he has elequently decsribed what many of us 'sandbox lovers' have talked about. 

Bossalinie

This is basically stating that the industry saved us from ourselves....


I am thankful actually...

Teala

He should have been preaching this stuff years ago, like some of us have been doing.  Just saying...

Icewhite

Originally posted by Teala

He should have been preaching this stuff years ago, like some of us have been doing.  Just saying...

He did.  He's been preaching it since 2004 (earlier, really).

Wormy's little Koster worship party has always disturbed me, considering how many of those "theory of fun" concepts directly contributed to the "dumbing down" of MMOs over the years.

fenistil

Yeah and lack of immersion correlates with lack of my willingness to play mmorpg's for over a half year now.

 

Biggest immersion breakers for me currently:

- cash shop-s

- cross server LFG with queuing and auto-teleports

 

+ many many other things.

 

Just current mmorpg's are not TYPE of games I want to play anymore. 

I will throw my money at any decent developer that will give me GOOD game without above things and that is not just instance grinder but create immersive world and is not feature-less indie cr*p.  Please take my moneyz !

Bossalinie

The thumbing down of MMOs spawned from what everything in this world has been touched by and suffered the same fate...

Money, and not necessarily greed...

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Teala

He should have been preaching this stuff years ago, like some of us have been doing.  Just saying...

He did.  He's been preaching it since 2004 (earlier, really).

Wormy's little Koster worship party has always disturbed me, considering how many of those "theory of fun" concepts directly contributed to the "dumbing down" of MMOs over the years.

it is poor interpretation and failure to uderstand that you have to look at the full picture not just pick out soundbites from the theories and implement in isolation that is the issue, his theories are grounded in common sense and good awareness of human behaviour and HCI from what I can tell.

SpottyGekko

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Teala

He should have been preaching this stuff years ago, like some of us have been doing.  Just saying...

He did.  He's been preaching it since 2004 (earlier, really).

Wormy's little Koster worship party has always disturbed me, considering how many of those "theory of fun" concepts directly contributed to the "dumbing down" of MMOs over the years.

it is poor interpretation and failure to uderstand that you have to look at the full picture not just pick out soundbites from the theories and implement in isolation that is the issue, his theories are grounded in common sense and good awareness of human behaviour and HCI from what I can tell.

Yes, true, but that's very much part of human nature, isn't it ?

 

We will climb the seven thousand steps to get to the mountaintop, so we can hear the wise words of the guru answer our questions. But if we don't like the answers, we'll pick out those bits that we DO like, and that will become "what he really meant"...

Icewhite

Originally posted by Bladestrom

it is poor interpretation and failure to uderstand that you have to look at the full picture not just pick out soundbites from the theories and implement in isolation that is the issue, his theories are grounded in common sense and good awareness of human behaviour and HCI from what I can tell.

Exactly.  Unless you've read Koster's cartoon and the published work of his contemporaries, you might be tempted to accept anything he says at face value.

nariusseldon

I agree with the fact that immersion is no longer a virtue but i disagree with the reasons.

I think many like Raph loses sight that games are just entertainment products. Immerision is all good if that adds to the enjoyment of the game.

What people do not (and many here do not) realize is that sometimes entertainment value (at least for the masses) goes UP with immersion breaking features. Like theorycrafting and DPS. Numbers are certainly immersion breaking but it feels another need ... the feel of power. Moreoever, the craft of maximizing DPS is fun (to some at least).

You can say the same thing about other types of games. COD single player campaign is not very immersing but a lot of fun, since the game is essentially on rail.

I think people need to think about what will be FUN to people. Immersion is a) not the only thing, and b) sometimes it gets in the way of fun.

 

nariusseldon

RK talks a lot. However, how many successful games does he really have? UO is eclipsed by EQ once EQ is out. I would chalk UO's mini success up to being the first one out of the gate.

I was in the beta and it was not that great a game.

kakasaki

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Teala

He should have been preaching this stuff years ago, like some of us have been doing.  Just saying...

He did.  He's been preaching it since 2004 (earlier, really).

Wormy's little Koster worship party has always disturbed me, considering how many of those "theory of fun" concepts directly contributed to the "dumbing down" of MMOs over the years.

it is poor interpretation and failure to uderstand that you have to look at the full picture not just pick out soundbites from the theories and implement in isolation that is the issue, his theories are grounded in common sense and good awareness of human behaviour and HCI from what I can tell.

Yes, true, but that's very much part of human nature, isn't it ?

 

We will climb the seven thousand steps to get to the mountaintop, so we can hear the wise words of the guru answer our questions. But if we don't like the answers, we'll pick out those bits that we DO like, and that will become "what he really meant"...

The MMO market reminds me more of the buddhist parable of the elephant:

"THERE was a mighty white elephant with a strong trunk and long tusks, trained by a good master, and willing and serviceable. This elephant, led by his trainer, came to the land of the blind. Very soon the rumours went in the land of the blind that an elephant had come to their country. So the wise men and teachers of the blind came up to the elephant and began to investigate him. And when the elephant was gone they met and discussed the animal among themselves.

 

There were some who said he was like a great thick snake; others said he was like a snake of medium size. The former had felt the trunk, the latter the tail.

Further, there were some who claimed that his figure was like a high column, others declared he was large and bulky like a big barrel, still others maintained he was smooth and hard but tapering. Some of the blind had taken hold of one of the legs, others had reached the main body, and still others had touched the tusks.

 

In the end they abused and scolded one another over their disagreements, and finally every one of them swore that everyone else was a liar and was cursed on account of his heresies.

 

Everyone of these blind men was honest in his contentions, sure of having the truth and relying on his own experience. But the elephant trainer knows that every one of them has a parcel of the truth, that every one is right in his way, but wrong in believing his outlook to be the whole truth.

 

Not one of these sectarians observed that the elephant was white, for all of them were blind who had investigated the truth to the best of their ability.

The master of the elephant is an Enlightened One. He has brought the white elephant of truth into the land of the blind, and he who listens to him well will understand all the claimants who have parcels of the truth. He who takes refuge in His doctrine will cease to bicker and quarrel."

 

I sometimes feel like we the hard-core fans are like the teachers and wise men of the blind...

Bladestrom

Originally posted by nariusseldon

RK talks a lot. However, how many successful games does he really have? UO is eclipsed by EQ once EQ is out. I would chalk UO's mini success up to being the first one out of the gate.

I was in the beta and it was not that great a game.

Well does he mae sense to you or not, because that is what matters, not points scoring.

SpottyGekko

Originally posted by nariusseldon

RK talks a lot. However, how many successful games does he really have? UO is eclipsed by EQ once EQ is out. I would chalk UO's mini success up to being the first one out of the gate.

I was in the beta and it was not that great a game.

UO and StarWars:Galaxies, arguably the best two attempts at creating a "virtual world" in an MMO.

 

But you probably didn't read his whole article, otherwise you would have noted the observation that "virtual worlds only seem to appeal to a specific personality type". Raph was writing about dreamers, and what they have lost in the modern MMO gaming world.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by kakasaki

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Teala

He should have been preaching this stuff years ago, like some of us have been doing.  Just saying...

He did.  He's been preaching it since 2004 (earlier, really).

Wormy's little Koster worship party has always disturbed me, considering how many of those "theory of fun" concepts directly contributed to the "dumbing down" of MMOs over the years.

it is poor interpretation and failure to uderstand that you have to look at the full picture not just pick out soundbites from the theories and implement in isolation that is the issue, his theories are grounded in common sense and good awareness of human behaviour and HCI from what I can tell.

Yes, true, but that's very much part of human nature, isn't it ?

 

We will climb the seven thousand steps to get to the mountaintop, so we can hear the wise words of the guru answer our questions. But if we don't like the answers, we'll pick out those bits that we DO like, and that will become "what he really meant"...

The MMO market reminds me more of the buddhist parable of the elephant:

"THERE was a mighty white elephant with a strong trunk and long tusks, trained by a good master, and willing and serviceable. This elephant, led by his trainer, came to the land of the blind. Very soon the rumours went in the land of the blind that an elephant had come to their country. So the wise men and teachers of the blind came up to the elephant and began to investigate him. And when the elephant was gone they met and discussed the animal among themselves.

 

There were some who said he was like a great thick snake; others said he was like a snake of medium size. The former had felt the trunk, the latter the tail.

Further, there were some who claimed that his figure was like a high column, others declared he was large and bulky like a big barrel, still others maintained he was smooth and hard but tapering. Some of the blind had taken hold of one of the legs, others had reached the main body, and still others had touched the tusks.

 

In the end they abused and scolded one another over their disagreements, and finally every one of them swore that everyone else was a liar and was cursed on account of his heresies.

 

Everyone of these blind men was honest in his contentions, sure of having the truth and relying on his own experience. But the elephant trainer knows that every one of them has a parcel of the truth, that every one is right in his way, but wrong in believing his outlook to be the whole truth.

 

Not one of these sectarians observed that the elephant was white, for all of them were blind who had investigated the truth to the best of their ability.

The master of the elephant is an Enlightened One. He has brought the white elephant of truth into the land of the blind, and he who listens to him well will understand all the claimants who have parcels of the truth. He who takes refuge in His doctrine will cease to bicker and quarrel."

 

I sometimes feel like we the hard-core fans are like the teachers and wise men of the blind...

   *bows*

nariusseldon

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by nariusseldon

RK talks a lot. However, how many successful games does he really have? UO is eclipsed by EQ once EQ is out. I would chalk UO's mini success up to being the first one out of the gate.

I was in the beta and it was not that great a game.

UO and StarWars:Galaxies, arguably the best two attempts at creating a "virtual world" in an MMO.

 

But you probably didn't read his whole article, otherwise you would have noted the observation that "virtual worlds only seem to appeal to a specific personality type". Raph was writing about dreamers, and what they have lost in the modern MMO gaming world.

So? That will be like monday night quarterbacking. Is he trying to explain why UO does not take off as big as the competition? It does not take a genius to know that ""virtual worlds only seem to appeal to a specific personality type". Just look at WOW success, or Diablo and we already know it.

My comments are also general. RK seems to be quite revered but he does not have that many hit, does he? I mean it is a lot easier to talk about what is wrong (or at least one's version of what is wrong). Heck, there are people doing that all day here. But it takes a lot more to really make a successful game.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by nariusseldon

RK talks a lot. However, how many successful games does he really have? UO is eclipsed by EQ once EQ is out. I would chalk UO's mini success up to being the first one out of the gate.

I was in the beta and it was not that great a game.

UO and StarWars:Galaxies, arguably the best two attempts at creating a "virtual world" in an MMO.

 

But you probably didn't read his whole article, otherwise you would have noted the observation that "virtual worlds only seem to appeal to a specific personality type". Raph was writing about dreamers, and what they have lost in the modern MMO gaming world.

So? That will be like monday night quarterbacking. Is he trying to explain why UO does not take off as big as the competition? It does not take a genius to know that ""virtual worlds only seem to appeal to a specific personality type". Just look at WOW success, or Diablo and we already know it.

My comments are also general. RK seems to be quite revered but he does not have that many hit, does he? I mean it is a lot easier to talk about what is wrong (or at least one's version of what is wrong). Heck, there are people doing that all day here. But it takes a lot more to really make a successful game.

so do you disagree with what he says or not?

SpottyGekko

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by nariusseldon

RK talks a lot. However, how many successful games does he really have? UO is eclipsed by EQ once EQ is out. I would chalk UO's mini success up to being the first one out of the gate.

I was in the beta and it was not that great a game.

UO and StarWars:Galaxies, arguably the best two attempts at creating a "virtual world" in an MMO.

 

But you probably didn't read his whole article, otherwise you would have noted the observation that "virtual worlds only seem to appeal to a specific personality type". Raph was writing about dreamers, and what they have lost in the modern MMO gaming world.

So? That will be like monday night quarterbacking. Is he trying to explain why UO does not take off as big as the competition? It does not take a genius to know that ""virtual worlds only seem to appeal to a specific personality type". Just look at WOW success, or Diablo and we already know it.

My comments are also general. RK seems to be quite revered but he does not have that many hit, does he? I mean it is a lot easier to talk about what is wrong (or at least one's version of what is wrong). Heck, there are people doing that all day here. But it takes a lot more to really make a successful game.

You don't like virtual world MMO's, I get it

 

As far as Raph's status is concerned, how many other lead designers can you name that worked on TWO very successfull MMO's, and both of them in totally different genre's ?

 

Raph is revered by those of us who are dreamers, who like being totally immersed in their game worlds. People who like virtual worlds, and all the trappings that go with them, because he gave us those kinds of games.

Classicstar

---

Originally posted by wormywyrm
I just came across a recent artcie by Raph Koster, known for his work in MUDs, UO, and SWG.  It is about immersion, what it is, and how developers have lost video games immersion in exchange for a wider audience.
"Is immersion a core game virtue?" - Raph Koster (LINK)
Games didn’t start out immersive. Nobody was getting sucked into the world of Mancala or the intricate world building of Go. Oh, people could be mesmerized, certainly, or in a state of flow whilst playing. But they were not immersed in the sense of being transported to another world. For that we had books.    

...   Things that we once considered essential to games drift in and out of fashion. And I think immersion is one of those.

 

Immersion does not make a lot of sense in a mobile, interruptible world. It comes from spending hours at something. An the fact is that as games go mainstream, they are played in small bites far more often than they are played in long solo sessions. The market adapts — this reaches more people, so the budgets divert, the publishers’ attention diverts, the developers’ creative attention diverts.    ...

Read More >>
I thought that the article was incredibly insightful and and chilling.  It really does describe the current climate of MMOs and the way that things have changed from making virtual worlds that players can lose themselves in into making quick cash.  It probably started in 2002 and 2003, when MEO was cancelled to be replaced by the linear LOTRO and WoW was released.  And of course in 2004 when SWG was changed to be more mainstream.
In my opinion, what it really comes down to is the industry selling out.  The people in charge of these companies are gamers (like Smedley of SoE), and once contributed to quality immersive games.  Now they squabble to follow mainstream market trends and copy previous successes to a T.
 
Heres something interesting that reveals some of Raph's feelings about the direction his industry has gone in:
I mourn. I mourn the gradual loss of deep immersion and the trappings of geekery that I love. I see the ways in which the worlds I once dove into headlong have become incredibly expensive endeavors, movies-with-button-presses far more invested in telling me their story, rather than letting me tell my own.

 I really feel sorry for him...  I have always been a game designer at heart and now I am very glad that I am going to optometry school instead of attempting to participate in the game industry.  I often wonder why it has been so long since Raph has worked on  a AAA mmorpg; he could probably get a decent job as a designer; he has a ton of experience.  And I think I understand now that he is unwilling to sell out the way other MUD/game designers have.

---

Capitalism is couse of all of this MONEY $$$ nothing else matters these days.

AutemOx

I think if a game company can do wonders with a commited fanbase.  EVE is an example of this, to some extent.  It requires more than just making a fun game...  It requires integrity & immersion.  There are still games from the early 90's that people pay monthly fees for.  I believe a game could last forever if it is built right...  And there is a good chance that me or Koster is going to make it

 

 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

RK talks a lot. However, how many successful games does he really have? UO is eclipsed by EQ once EQ is out. I would chalk UO's mini success up to being the first one out of the gate.

I was in the beta and it was not that great a game.

I think that if given the money and the creative control Koster would do another MMO.  He seems willing.  And what he has done has changed the industry, both via his lectures and the games he has had a hand in. 

Koster doesn't have to make a lot of $$ to make amazing games; in fact his article points to how immersive games are not mainstream.  So if success=$$, then he is moderately successful.  If sucess were something less tangiable then he may be a smash hit.

 

Originally posted by Icewhite

Wormy's little Koster worship party has always disturbed me, considering how many of those "theory of fun" concepts directly contributed to the "dumbing down" of MMOs over the years.

I guess he seems a bit like Einstein and the atomic bomb.  A certain brilliance and understanding about his topic, but that does not mean he can control the people in power and the things they do.  Lol @ Koster Worhsip

Cuathon

Narius is one of the reasons I wanted a sandbox only forum. Because we know what he thinks and we can guess what he will say, so it is no longer helpful to read his post because its predictable.

I will explain:

He considers WoW to be his ideal game.

He does not like virtual worlds.

He does not like forced grouping.

 

Now you know everything about him, and can predict how he will respond to any sandbox post.

He will say look at WoW's subs. That is the extent of his argument. He is not willing to consider marketing either. He believes that WoW is successful purely because of its gameplay. Which makes little sense because the core goal of WoW constantly shifts to GW, but w/e.

 

 

 

Amphib_Ian

This would explain why, as time goes on, I play MMO's less and less than I used to, even when I have the time. Why It becomes undesireable to me to log in, and why after I do log in I only spend a little bit of time playing before wanting to log back out and do something else. Yet I can read a book in only a couple days. Thanks for pointing this out OP

BCuse

i enjoyed reading that and have to agree with him!

wizyy

Yes, the immersiveness in MMORPG is going the way of the dinosaur, and if Jake Song can't save some of it in ArcheAge (which tries to balance sandbox with themepark elements), then I just don't see any quality, fun and immersive MMORPG in any foreseeable future.

AutemOx

Originally posted by zymurgeist

I'm extremely wary of people who speak in such generalities on topics particular to the individual. People find very different things immersive.

The world immersive could be used in different ways, but I think if you accept the way that Koster is using then you would recognize theres a certain tendency/consensus about what creates immersion.

For instance, people were complaining that SWTOR isnt immersive because the trees and environment are too stationary, with no animation, interaction or ambient sounds.  That isn't the type of immersion that Koster is talking about in his article, that is more like 'aliveness', 'animate environment', 'graphical realism', or 'environmental immersion'.  Koster is referring to players getting emotionally and physically invested in a virtual world, ie: immersed.