I am old enough to have played the first mmos but I didn't get started until 2005 with WoW. Since that time I played GW, AOC (max level), COH (40s and several alts), Rift (max level) and SWTOR (level 21). By no means am I a mmo vet like some folks on here, but I've played my share. Rewind to Rift. I bought a 6 month sub somehow thinking that it was a different game. It was like I was under a spell. After a month and a half, I hit max level, maxed out my crafting and suddenly it dawned on me that I was just going through the motions. I didn't play for most of the remaining 4 months of my sub time. Now with SWTOR, I had the same burnout at the 3 week mark. I was only level 21 but I maxed out a crafting tier and had the same realization. Fortunately, I only had 30 days of included box time so I was able to cancel today. I realized that I was just chasing that carrot on a stick. No matter what the game, whether you are level 5, 10, 50 or max level, you are on an endless treadmill with no purpose other than to hit the next level, tier, etc.
I think I am finally ready to say good bye to the same tired old theme park formula and just wait for the right mmo to come out. Who knows when it will be. Due to the SWTOR beta and early access, I didn't get a chance to fully explore Skyrim so at least I have that to provide some sandbox entertainment, albeit non-mmo. I can't count the number of times I saw someone trash theme park games in favor of sandbox games on here.... now I understand why. I never played any of the pre 2005 sandbox mmos so I feel like I have missed out. Maybe Archage will be that game. Do we even know enough about TSW, Tera or GW2 to determine if they will be just the same old formula? I am no longer going to be a paying lab rat for these mad scientist theme park mmo creating devs. No more carrots!
What you describe usually happens to MMO gamers that play more than a few hours a week.
A kill quest is a kill quest & a delivery quest is a delivery quest....regardless if you're in WOW, Aion or SWTOR.
There might be some subtle differences in mechanics, LFD tool, wings, or companions....but at the core, its the same treadmill. YOU (as a player) are defined by the gear you wear. As a requirement to wear the good gear, you need levels. So you run dungeons that gives gear that enables you to run the next set of dungeons that drop the next set of gear.....that allows you to run the NEXT set of dungeons...etc.
Thats an over simplified view, but essentiall that is what exists at the core....and that's why your burnout rate carries over from themepark game to themepark game.
I am old enough to have played the first mmos but I didn't get started until 2005 with WoW. Since that time I played GW, AOC (max level), COH (40s and several alts), Rift (max level) and SWTOR (level 21). By no means am I a mmo vet like some folks on here, but I've played my share. Rewind to Rift. I bought a 6 month sub somehow thinking that it was a different game. It was like I was under a spell. After a month and a half, I hit max level, maxed out my crafting and suddenly it dawned on me that I was just going through the motions. I didn't play for most of the remaining 4 months of my sub time. Now with SWTOR, I had the same burnout at the 3 week mark. I was only level 21 but I maxed out a crafting tier and had the same realization. Fortunately, I only had 30 days of included box time so I was able to cancel today. I realized that I was just chasing that carrot on a stick. No matter what the game, whether you are level 5, 10, 50 or max level, you are on an endless treadmill with no purpose other than to hit the next level, tier, etc.
I think I am finally ready to say good bye to the same tired old theme park formula and just wait for the right mmo to come out. Who knows when it will be. Due to the SWTOR beta and early access, I didn't get a chance to fully explore Skyrim so at least I have that to provide some sandbox entertainment, albeit non-mmo. I can't count the number of times I saw someone trash theme park games in favor of sandbox games on here.... now I understand why. I never played any of the pre 2005 sandbox mmos so I feel like I have missed out. Maybe Archage will be that game. Do we even know enough about TSW, Tera or GW2 to determine if they will be just the same old formula? I am no longer going to be a paying lab rat for these mad scientist theme park mmo creating devs. No more carrots!
What you describe usually happens to MMO gamers that play more than a few hours a week.
A kill quest is a kill quest & a delivery quest is a delivery quest....regardless if you're in WOW, Aion or SWTOR.
There might be some subtle differences in mechanics, LFD tool, wings, or companions....but at the core, its the same treadmill. YOU (as a player) are defined by the gear you wear. As a requirement to wear the good gear, you need levels. So you run dungeons that gives gear that enables you to run the next set of dungeons that drop the next set of gear.....that allows you to run the NEXT set of dungeons...etc.
Thats an over simplified view, but essentiall that is what exists at the core....and that's why your burnout rate carries over from themepark game to themepark game.
personally I dont have a problem with a gear based centric game. If you think outside of the box a gear centered game could be created that looks nothing at all like any game we have ever experienced as an MMO.
As a radical example take the Sims which is basically the same forumla as an RPG with gear focus as its core engine, but clearly COMPLETELY different from 'kill 100 rats'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Money is king. Publishers are making all the calls for this genre. None of the major contenders (EA, Activision, Ubisoft ect...) are going to chance money on a Sandbox game that has to this point - no real proven forumla for success. I hate to say it, but I honestly think we're stuck with Themepark MMOs for the foreseeable future.
The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project. They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.
The indie developers have tried to fill this gap, but have fallen short in most cases because they are trying to compete with the likes of Blizzard, EA, and NCSoft in the polish & asthetics department and don't have the funds to create a fully fledged massive 3D world, award winning soundtrack, and complicated & advanced technologies. Mortal Online tries to solve world hunger on a facebook game budget and fails misserably. Sandbox gaming gets the blame when its the bad launch, bugs, glitches, and half of the advertised features inplemented.
Indie developers need to understand their audience. You think EVE players are concerned with how sweet their gear looks, or that they get grouped with players from other servers?
Indie developers need to pull the scope in of their projects and reduce cost on the fluff items that mainstream MMO gamers find important...but aren't that important to MMO gamers that want to live & breathe in a virtual world.
Instead of spending a ton of money on the industries most advanced 3D engine, use a nice looking isometric view (think Diablo, Torch Light, Battle of Immortals) and save money there.
Instead of spending a ton of money on award winning orchestras to lay down the game soundtrack......find a good rennesance band that gets paid shillings to perform at festivals to put something together for a fantasy based game.
Instead of spending a ton of money on network engineers & complicated netowork technology to make cross server grouping, and instance farms....make a large persistant world where people have to interact with their own communities to overcome challenges in the game.
You don't have to spend a lot of time and resources on coming up with balanced rulesets.....just take Ultima Online's notiery system & overall game structure (minus the bugs) and BAM, problem solved on the cheap.
The formula is there.....its just that every indie developer that has tried to do something in the last 3-4 years have been trying to compete in areas of MMO gaming that aren't important to sandbox fans....and as a result have fallen short of development and had terrible launches.
As far as the sandbox deal goes, I'm in the same boat as a lot of you guys. Played Darkfall for a while, then went to play WoW again after Cata came out. Couldn't take the themepark way of doing things. Went back to Darkfall. Tried Rift, got to about 30ish, couldn't take the themepark deal any more, went back to Darkfall. Hopped on the TORtanic (I love that, btw whoever it was who previously quipped it), enjoyd it for a few weeks, and am now unsubbed. And...back to Darkfall.
This makes the 5th or 6th "Return of Pink Floyd". Feel free to kill me - doesn't take much. Especially on a Friday night when I'm quite well knackered.
The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project. They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.
Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?
The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project. They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.
Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?
It's just short-sighted and lazy.
Nobody really knows how big or small the audience for a good sandbox (or even sandbox/themepark hybrid) game will be.
We might get some idea if Archeage ever launches in the West, but even then it's leaning toward FFA-PVP might be a limiting factor on sub numbers.
The biggest obstacle is that the numbers are totally unknown, therefore it's a huge financial risk...
Ummm...::shakes her head::: wait...what? Is this the same guy that was trumpeting the greatness of SWTOR less than a month ago? Also saying it would retain lots of players and you have all ready given up and teh first month is not even gone by?
What are you trying to show in this link and the following post ? The guy didn't say SWTOR was the "greatest ever" he only acknowledged the things it did differently, he didn't attack anyone in that thread, nor call you haters that I could see anyway, wth?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I can't find a good video of female character creation, but this picture should get the point across.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project. They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.
Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?
It's just short-sighted and lazy.
Nobody really knows how big or small the audience for a good sandbox (or even sandbox/themepark hybrid) game will be.
We might get some idea if Archeage ever launches in the West, but even then it's leaning toward FFA-PVP might be a limiting factor on sub numbers.
The biggest obstacle is that the numbers are totally unknown, therefore it's a huge financial risk...
That I can agree with- there's certainly a risk, but it's just ignorant to say that the audience is too small, because that's unknown which is why I wanted to comment on his post.
no idea bout TSW but Tera and Guild wars will definately not be sandboxes. Tera i know for sure cause i've played it and i'm pretty sure GW2 will be exactly like GW1 with better graphics.
I stopped reading right there. You are obviously speculating without researching.
GW2 will be ***NOTHING*** like GW1!! Please go learn more about GW2 and get your facts....errr OPINIONS straight.
I WILL see you in GW2 when it releases.
Please do not speculate, it really upsets the facts about games in production. There is alot of info and judging by your comment, you really did not look into GW2 at all. If you played all the others you will Love GW2.
I was where you were a few years back but I have done a full circle.
The problem was that I was looking for an MMO that didn't exist. I then returned back to single player games and the odd PS3 RPG.
After getting over my dissapointment I returned and picked up Fallen Earth which I really enjoyed and now popped over to SWTOR. Somehow knowing that there isn't an MMO that is a true sandbox game without 'go and kill X' mobs etc. I have started to enjoy MMO's again as I look at them for a short term (3-6 months) gaming fix rather than trying to find an epic MMO where I can really make a difference and build my own corner in the universe.
I personally think single player RPG games are really making inroads and we even started up old pen and paper games as that is truly bespoke.
The MMO genre really needs a game that bucks the trend but problem is no one will take that much of a risk. For now I play through them like a walk in the park, basically checking out the scenary.
p.s. Fallen Earth may be something you could look at. Its not truly sandbox but very much free roam with massive crafting trees etc.
It's not so much sandboxes themselves that are the problem with modern AAA mmos. It's sandboxes that try so hard to be WOW that is the problem. Instead of growing their own audience they try and steal wows, but theres more people out there that don't play wow than play it, seems odd to me to take that approach.
I see what GW2 and TSW are doing as encouraging, sure they are still themeparks, but GW2 is giving a more freeform experience in leveling (and getting rid of the trinity), TSW is giving a more freeform experience in character speccing (and getting rid of leveling altogether). Both should have better PVP than the "wow standard" also.
for newish sandbox game, I recommend giving perpetuum a try.
The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project. They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.
Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?
It's just short-sighted and lazy.
I don't have a source other than the collection of knowledge about MMOs over the last 10 years, and my business experience from school and practice.
EVE is regarded as one of the generes most successful examples of a sandbox game and it sits somewhere around 300k subscribers. Ultima Online topped out in around 2000 at around 200k subs (in the 2000 guiness book of world records)
What we regard as traditional "virtual world" MMORPGs are NOT for the every day gamer. Blizzard said so much in one of their early development interviews. When they set out to make a MMO based on the Warcraft IP, they said one of the things they wanted to focus on in their game was increasing the accessibility to ALL gamers. They wanted to lower the learning curve, reduce the time commitment, and remove other barriers to entry that kept many casual gamers away from MMORPGs.
Blizzard recognized that the gaming industries most profitable pricing methodology (Box Sales + Reoccuring Monthly Fees) was being wasited on gamings most niche genere...MMORPGs. If you build it, they will come....and they did. Blizzard succeeded at making one of the first casual MMORPGs. I'm not denying that marketing and polish helped seal the deal for Blizzard....but make no mistake, the reason Blizzard pulled in over 10x the subs that Ever Quest did WAS because of the audience they created & marketed the game to.
You reference the millions and millions of Zynga gamers. Look at Zynga games....they are very simple and cheap gaming experiences that you can pick up and put down in 20-30 minute play cycles. The reason they have so many customers is because they appeal to the casual gaming audience....which is the largest subsection of the gamer pie. There are more people that can wrap their heads around Angry Birds than a game like EVE. There are more people that have 30 minutes or so to spend on Farmville than there are people that have a few hours to dump into a game like SWG.
And by the way, SWG failed because the developers looked at what WOW was doing (pulling in casual gamers from other game generes by making the first casual MMORPG) and quickly abandoned the Sandbox features of the game in the hopes of increasing subscribers & revenue. They just didn't arbitrarily f*ck up the whole thing cause they wanted to. There was a reason behind implementing the CU & NGE patches.
Look up the Blue Oceans marketing theory....Blizzard created a new market for casual MMORPGs, and being first to market (and having a superior product) has allowed them to fend off all of the copy cats that have followed suit....including the revised version of SWG.
Look up the Blue Oceans marketing theory....Blizzard created a new market for casual MMORPGs, and being first to market (and having a superior product) has allowed them to fend off all of the copy cats that have followed suit....including the revised version of SWG.
And having a ready-made fanbase of a few million WarCraft RTS fans didn't hurt them either
The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project. They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.
Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?
It's just short-sighted and lazy.
Source? You have no information, just like RajCaj. Don't have a double standard. If you ask the other person for source, you should provide it to support YOUR claims.
Neither of you have any hard information and it is pure guess work. If that is the case, since no one knows, the risk is HIGH and you can't blame developers of not investing 10s of millions of dollars.
Would people please stop with the stupid claims about how no major developer or publisher is going to take on a sandbox? If Tecmo-Koei isn't a major developer, in spite of about 30 years of experience in making games and several hundred million dollars in annual revenue, then you've got an awfully narrow definition of "major" game developers.
Sadly the last real sandbox died with SWG-PreCU. EVE is good but its time consuming and very deep and alot of people including myself dont feel at home in the EVE universe. Its an amasing game though!
Would people please stop with the stupid claims about how no major developer or publisher is going to take on a sandbox? If Tecmo-Koei isn't a major developer, in spite of about 30 years of experience in making games and several hundred million dollars in annual revenue, then you've got an awfully narrow definition of "major" game developers.
Remember, on this site major developer is defined as P2P and/or Western Developers.
F2P / Eastern Developers need not apply.
I was checking around, UWO is largely ignored, not just by western players but the larger gaming media community.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project. They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.
Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?
It's just short-sighted and lazy.
Source? You have no information, just like RajCaj. Don't have a double standard. If you ask the other person for source, you should provide it to support YOUR claims.
Neither of you have any hard information and it is pure guess work. If that is the case, since no one knows, the risk is HIGH and you can't blame developers of not investing 10s of millions of dollars.
The first person stated it as a fact the other "there is no doubt in my mind" so it's an opinion. And my opinion would be the same, I find it highly unlikely the sandbox style would be unable to ever go above 1mill subs with the right formula.
Just like I find it highly unlikely we are alone in the universe, doesn't necessarily mean I state it as a fact that we aren't.
However with a slight modification to the first post it could very well be a fact "The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because they think the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project."
Would people please stop with the stupid claims about how no major developer or publisher is going to take on a sandbox? If Tecmo-Koei isn't a major developer, in spite of about 30 years of experience in making games and several hundred million dollars in annual revenue, then you've got an awfully narrow definition of "major" game developers.
Remember, on this site major developer is defined as P2P and/or Western Developers.
F2P / Eastern Developers need not apply.
I was checking around, UWO is largely ignored, not just by western players but the larger gaming media community.
Major developer means P2P only? So EverQuest II, Champions Online, and LotRO are now minor indie titles?
And Western only? So the various Mario and Zelda games are just minor indie titles that happened to sell millions of copies in the US alone?
It's one thing to not want to play a game. It's entirely another to insist that it doesn't exist. I don't play SWTOR, but I wouldn't go around insisting that there aren't any Star Wars MMORPGs.
Comments
What you describe usually happens to MMO gamers that play more than a few hours a week.
A kill quest is a kill quest & a delivery quest is a delivery quest....regardless if you're in WOW, Aion or SWTOR.
There might be some subtle differences in mechanics, LFD tool, wings, or companions....but at the core, its the same treadmill. YOU (as a player) are defined by the gear you wear. As a requirement to wear the good gear, you need levels. So you run dungeons that gives gear that enables you to run the next set of dungeons that drop the next set of gear.....that allows you to run the NEXT set of dungeons...etc.
Thats an over simplified view, but essentiall that is what exists at the core....and that's why your burnout rate carries over from themepark game to themepark game.
personally I dont have a problem with a gear based centric game. If you think outside of the box a gear centered game could be created that looks nothing at all like any game we have ever experienced as an MMO.
As a radical example take the Sims which is basically the same forumla as an RPG with gear focus as its core engine, but clearly COMPLETELY different from 'kill 100 rats'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project. They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.
The indie developers have tried to fill this gap, but have fallen short in most cases because they are trying to compete with the likes of Blizzard, EA, and NCSoft in the polish & asthetics department and don't have the funds to create a fully fledged massive 3D world, award winning soundtrack, and complicated & advanced technologies. Mortal Online tries to solve world hunger on a facebook game budget and fails misserably. Sandbox gaming gets the blame when its the bad launch, bugs, glitches, and half of the advertised features inplemented.
Indie developers need to understand their audience. You think EVE players are concerned with how sweet their gear looks, or that they get grouped with players from other servers?
Indie developers need to pull the scope in of their projects and reduce cost on the fluff items that mainstream MMO gamers find important...but aren't that important to MMO gamers that want to live & breathe in a virtual world.
Instead of spending a ton of money on the industries most advanced 3D engine, use a nice looking isometric view (think Diablo, Torch Light, Battle of Immortals) and save money there.
Instead of spending a ton of money on award winning orchestras to lay down the game soundtrack......find a good rennesance band that gets paid shillings to perform at festivals to put something together for a fantasy based game.
Instead of spending a ton of money on network engineers & complicated netowork technology to make cross server grouping, and instance farms....make a large persistant world where people have to interact with their own communities to overcome challenges in the game.
You don't have to spend a lot of time and resources on coming up with balanced rulesets.....just take Ultima Online's notiery system & overall game structure (minus the bugs) and BAM, problem solved on the cheap.
The formula is there.....its just that every indie developer that has tried to do something in the last 3-4 years have been trying to compete in areas of MMO gaming that aren't important to sandbox fans....and as a result have fallen short of development and had terrible launches.
As far as the sandbox deal goes, I'm in the same boat as a lot of you guys. Played Darkfall for a while, then went to play WoW again after Cata came out. Couldn't take the themepark way of doing things. Went back to Darkfall. Tried Rift, got to about 30ish, couldn't take the themepark deal any more, went back to Darkfall. Hopped on the TORtanic (I love that, btw whoever it was who previously quipped it), enjoyd it for a few weeks, and am now unsubbed. And...back to Darkfall.
This makes the 5th or 6th "Return of Pink Floyd". Feel free to kill me - doesn't take much. Especially on a Friday night when I'm quite well knackered.
Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?
It's just short-sighted and lazy.
Nobody really knows how big or small the audience for a good sandbox (or even sandbox/themepark hybrid) game will be.
We might get some idea if Archeage ever launches in the West, but even then it's leaning toward FFA-PVP might be a limiting factor on sub numbers.
The biggest obstacle is that the numbers are totally unknown, therefore it's a huge financial risk...
What are you trying to show in this link and the following post ? The guy didn't say SWTOR was the "greatest ever" he only acknowledged the things it did differently, he didn't attack anyone in that thread, nor call you haters that I could see anyway, wth?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's actually more of a cat. It has horns for some reason, but also claws, fangs and catlike fur. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gMceI9FaAf8#t=202s
I can't find a good video of female character creation, but this picture should get the point across.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I shall call it MooCat, and it shall produce milk and purr when I rub its belly.
DOAC is still a sandbox game* in a lot of ways*
I would say try ryzom, i loved the game, but the community is small*good and bad*
MYSPACE ACCOUNT
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=80721225
Which FF Character Are You?
That I can agree with- there's certainly a risk, but it's just ignorant to say that the audience is too small, because that's unknown which is why I wanted to comment on his post.
I stopped reading right there. You are obviously speculating without researching.
GW2 will be ***NOTHING*** like GW1!! Please go learn more about GW2 and get your facts....errr OPINIONS straight.
I WILL see you in GW2 when it releases.
Please do not speculate, it really upsets the facts about games in production. There is alot of info and judging by your comment, you really did not look into GW2 at all. If you played all the others you will Love GW2.
EDIT: Here you go....
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/guild-wars-2-mass-info-t25557.html
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
Wow, I think I will actually last longer in SWTOR than its fans!
Probably because I haven't put that many hours into it.
As a result, I haven't been able to finish the content, so I might sub for a second month to see it through.
It's really not a game many will get a high amount of /played though. More of a single run-through business.
I was where you were a few years back but I have done a full circle.
The problem was that I was looking for an MMO that didn't exist. I then returned back to single player games and the odd PS3 RPG.
After getting over my dissapointment I returned and picked up Fallen Earth which I really enjoyed and now popped over to SWTOR. Somehow knowing that there isn't an MMO that is a true sandbox game without 'go and kill X' mobs etc. I have started to enjoy MMO's again as I look at them for a short term (3-6 months) gaming fix rather than trying to find an epic MMO where I can really make a difference and build my own corner in the universe.
I personally think single player RPG games are really making inroads and we even started up old pen and paper games as that is truly bespoke.
The MMO genre really needs a game that bucks the trend but problem is no one will take that much of a risk. For now I play through them like a walk in the park, basically checking out the scenary.
p.s. Fallen Earth may be something you could look at. Its not truly sandbox but very much free roam with massive crafting trees etc.
See my favourite MMOs are DAOC and EVE
ones a themepark the others a sandbox
It's not so much sandboxes themselves that are the problem with modern AAA mmos. It's sandboxes that try so hard to be WOW that is the problem. Instead of growing their own audience they try and steal wows, but theres more people out there that don't play wow than play it, seems odd to me to take that approach.
I see what GW2 and TSW are doing as encouraging, sure they are still themeparks, but GW2 is giving a more freeform experience in leveling (and getting rid of the trinity), TSW is giving a more freeform experience in character speccing (and getting rid of leveling altogether). Both should have better PVP than the "wow standard" also.
for newish sandbox game, I recommend giving perpetuum a try.
I don't have a source other than the collection of knowledge about MMOs over the last 10 years, and my business experience from school and practice.
EVE is regarded as one of the generes most successful examples of a sandbox game and it sits somewhere around 300k subscribers. Ultima Online topped out in around 2000 at around 200k subs (in the 2000 guiness book of world records)
What we regard as traditional "virtual world" MMORPGs are NOT for the every day gamer. Blizzard said so much in one of their early development interviews. When they set out to make a MMO based on the Warcraft IP, they said one of the things they wanted to focus on in their game was increasing the accessibility to ALL gamers. They wanted to lower the learning curve, reduce the time commitment, and remove other barriers to entry that kept many casual gamers away from MMORPGs.
Blizzard recognized that the gaming industries most profitable pricing methodology (Box Sales + Reoccuring Monthly Fees) was being wasited on gamings most niche genere...MMORPGs. If you build it, they will come....and they did. Blizzard succeeded at making one of the first casual MMORPGs. I'm not denying that marketing and polish helped seal the deal for Blizzard....but make no mistake, the reason Blizzard pulled in over 10x the subs that Ever Quest did WAS because of the audience they created & marketed the game to.
You reference the millions and millions of Zynga gamers. Look at Zynga games....they are very simple and cheap gaming experiences that you can pick up and put down in 20-30 minute play cycles. The reason they have so many customers is because they appeal to the casual gaming audience....which is the largest subsection of the gamer pie. There are more people that can wrap their heads around Angry Birds than a game like EVE. There are more people that have 30 minutes or so to spend on Farmville than there are people that have a few hours to dump into a game like SWG.
And by the way, SWG failed because the developers looked at what WOW was doing (pulling in casual gamers from other game generes by making the first casual MMORPG) and quickly abandoned the Sandbox features of the game in the hopes of increasing subscribers & revenue. They just didn't arbitrarily f*ck up the whole thing cause they wanted to. There was a reason behind implementing the CU & NGE patches.
Look up the Blue Oceans marketing theory....Blizzard created a new market for casual MMORPGs, and being first to market (and having a superior product) has allowed them to fend off all of the copy cats that have followed suit....including the revised version of SWG.
And having a ready-made fanbase of a few million WarCraft RTS fans didn't hurt them either
Wow... That was just... lol
Source? You have no information, just like RajCaj. Don't have a double standard. If you ask the other person for source, you should provide it to support YOUR claims.
Neither of you have any hard information and it is pure guess work. If that is the case, since no one knows, the risk is HIGH and you can't blame developers of not investing 10s of millions of dollars.
Would people please stop with the stupid claims about how no major developer or publisher is going to take on a sandbox? If Tecmo-Koei isn't a major developer, in spite of about 30 years of experience in making games and several hundred million dollars in annual revenue, then you've got an awfully narrow definition of "major" game developers.
Remember, on this site major developer is defined as P2P and/or Western Developers.
F2P / Eastern Developers need not apply.
I was checking around, UWO is largely ignored, not just by western players but the larger gaming media community.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The first person stated it as a fact the other "there is no doubt in my mind" so it's an opinion. And my opinion would be the same, I find it highly unlikely the sandbox style would be unable to ever go above 1mill subs with the right formula.
Just like I find it highly unlikely we are alone in the universe, doesn't necessarily mean I state it as a fact that we aren't.
However with a slight modification to the first post it could very well be a fact "The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because they think the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project."
Major developer means P2P only? So EverQuest II, Champions Online, and LotRO are now minor indie titles?
And Western only? So the various Mario and Zelda games are just minor indie titles that happened to sell millions of copies in the US alone?
It's one thing to not want to play a game. It's entirely another to insist that it doesn't exist. I don't play SWTOR, but I wouldn't go around insisting that there aren't any Star Wars MMORPGs.