Reading the OP feels so strange since I have the same feeling when playing Sith.
In fact, the Bounty Hunter aside, all "Imperial Citizen" classes make me wanna puke. You're bound to support a regime - which is fortunately imaginary - that's literally worse than the Third Reich. Slaves, forced labor, discrimination, genocide, forced medical experiments, extreme hierarchy - you name it.
I played through level 20 with my Sith Inquisitor until I got so sick of supporting all the dissocial screw-ups and powerhungry monsters I happily logged back to my Jedi Consular.
Not that the Republic choices are all nice and cozy, but at least I as a player get a sense of companionship with my companions (whereas I loathed every single ar*ehole I met on Imp side) and a renewed sense of purpose after my trip to Dromund Kaas...
BTW the Jedi Code is very close to some forms of buddhism, e.g. the one the Shaolin monks are following. In fact, the Jedi is pretty much a friar with a saber. Someone who'd love to stroll through the gardens of the abby and think about the purpose of life but can't because there are people in the world who "just don't get it"...
I find this concept a lot more credible than the idea of a ruthless police state where nobody seems to have any friends not falling apart in seconds...
Playing the Empire classes is just the same. You get sick of the shallowness of the darkside choices, how utterly without motivation they are and how they are written to be evil for the sake of being evil.
The problem here isn't about being a 'goody goody', which in reality is easily as interesting (and a harder life choice then 'evil') if written well, it's the mundane job based 'quests' in games like this.
An issue that SWTOR could have easily solved, but ofc chose not to.
TBH, SWTOR hasn't solved a single problem design issue of the classic themepark, which is a missed opportunity to say the least.
Jedi aren't goody goody they're one dimensional morons. The absurd construct that Lucas introduced into the prequals of being good is a denial of everything it means to be human. You can be an extremely powerful force for good but you can never enjoy any of it. Uh what? This has nothing to do with being a themepark. It has everything to do with the flawed concept of what being Jedi has to be. The really idiotic notion that love is inherently evil. Jedi are cardboard cut outs and it's not interesting.
Your blaming SWTOR's reliance on mundane job style 'questing' on SW lore? Your not even willing to acknowledge that jedi can be written interestingly, and that 'quests' can be more then making you into an errand boy or janitor?
I used speech marks around 'goody goody' because I realise the Jedi are not about 'good' btw... But them being one dimensional? well.. have to disagree... Sure, the 'perfect' Jedi might be that, but even at their best these are real flawed beings struggling with their base natures all their lives while they strive for an (impossible?) ideal. That really should be really pretty easy to write a quest line about that isn't boring, but somehow SWTOR fails to do so. Instead they fall back on cliche quest chores and clearing up what others can't be arsed with
(I never said the problem with the Jedi quests in this game was about the game being themepark BTW... I said 'in games like these' when talking about the Jedi quests, meaning quest based MMOs. The statement I made about SWTOR as a themepark was a seperate point, thats why it was given a seperate paragraph. Sorry for not being clearer.)
Swtor's treatment is of the light side is right out of the Lucas playbook. It's horribly written. They made no attempt at all to do anything even slightly different. I'm sure Lucas insisted on that. It's why I groaned years ago when Bioware announced their MMO would be Star Wars. Sith are evil but understandable. Jedi are Booooooring and incomprehensable. One of the first things you find out in the side quests is an entire race is facing genocide and the Jedi Council is standing by doing nothing because they don't want to encorage them. WTF?
Yeah, I get what your saying here, especially about it being horribly written in general. No doubt they sides were broken up into 'quest teams' to write and that probably accounts for why most think theres such a difference in the quality of the quests of the two factions.
I played a trooper in beta mainly though so I didn't see that particular quest... didn't it make sense in what the Jedi are at all? These guys are disspassionate agents of law, continiously putting the need for order and peace above the needs of a few... was it not in character?
Playing the Empire classes is just the same. You get sick of the shallowness of the darkside choices, how utterly without motivation they are and how they are written to be evil for the sake of being evil.
Two words - it's Bioware.
Yea well that was to be expected.
Bioware games were never very deep, they just had a story-heavy gameplay and lots of dialogue choices. But even back in Baldurs Gates days, there weren't any really unexpected or multi-facetted characters.
If you want political/personal intrigue and really guess who's who you need to load "The Witcher"-games or go play PnP RPG. ATM I play Call of Cthulhu with my RPG-group and a female gamemaster and the story arcs she's pulling out of her sleeve make Bioware look like some teenage fanfiction. And she's not even a professional.
So yea, was to be expected, you just need to roll with Biowares Hollywood cliché fest ...
Bioware games were never very deep, they just had a story-heavy gameplay and lots of dialogue choices. But even back in Baldurs Gates days, there weren't any really unexpected or multi-facetted characters.
If you want political/personal intrigue and really guess who's who you need to load "The Witcher"-games or go play PnP RPG. ATM I play Call of Cthulhu with my RPG-group and a female gamemaster and the story arcs she's pulling out of her sleeve make Bioware look like some teenage fanfiction. And she's not even a professional.
So yea, was to be expected, you just need to roll with Biowares Hollywood cliché fest ...
M
Ha, I once said this exact thing on the Bioware forums, which isn't surprising because many people feel the same. I said that the Witcher was an example of deeper, more gritty writing, an unsurprising opinion given it was written by a bona-fide writer, and that their games always treaded Hollywood storylines and one-dimensional stereotypes. Crucially, I said that I still enjoyed their games for what they are, but the community ripped me a new one anyway.
Apparently Bioware games have no literary equal - not even Chaucer! And this is why Bioware will never improve on their story-telling, despite their games being based on story-telling - a large percentage of people think the writing is a lot better than it is. A bit like Star Wars *ducks*
Playing the Empire classes is just the same. You get sick of the shallowness of the darkside choices, how utterly without motivation they are and how they are written to be evil for the sake of being evil.
Two words - it's Bioware.
Well typically I hate stereotypes but - yes, it's Bioware. Nowadays. Those people who left once made this company legend. They aren't anymore.
But why did you actually buy the game then, when you detest Bioware?
Playing the Empire classes is just the same. You get sick of the shallowness of the darkside choices, how utterly without motivation they are and how they are written to be evil for the sake of being evil.
Two words - it's Bioware.
Well typically I hate stereotypes but - yes, it's Bioware. Nowadays. Those people who left once made this company legend. They aren't anymore.
But why did you actually buy the game then, when you detest Bioware?
I don't hate Bioware, I quite enjoy their games. Doesn't mean that I need to absolutely adore everything about them, though. I can enjoy playing a RPG with mediocre writing, it is allowed. Or it ought to be: some folks hate people who like Bioware games (but not unconditionally) more than the trolls whose sole purpose is to bankrupt the company.
tbh, i thinkmost of the people praising BW for their glorious storytelling think your next door fantasy novel is a great work of art...
that's also fortified by the notion of not being able to distinguish between thinking it is Hollywood cliche garbage and nit liking it...
I really Luke Hollywood garbage most of the times. Still, I wouldn't go ahead and claim that mission imposible 4 is right up there with pride and prejudice....
tbh, i thinkmost of the people praising BW for their glorious storytelling think your next door fantasy novel is a great work of art...
that's also fortified by the notion of not being able to distinguish between thinking it is Hollywood cliche garbage and nit liking it...
I really Luke Hollywood garbage most of the times. Still, I wouldn't go ahead and claim that mission imposible 4 is right up there with pride and prejudice....
m
I don't think anyone was under the impression that they were buying Shakespeare when they picked up this game, in the same way that no one would confuse Lady GaGa with Beethoven, as far as modern music goes.
Everyone who knows Bioware knows to expect linear, on-rails worlds with limited dialogue choices, and any shallow options provided being more nice guy vs jerk, rather than good vs evil.
I think people bought the game and enjoy playing it because it is Star Wars, and because it is a fun game. Regardless of whether it is comparable to WoW, or any other mmo, I think it should stand and be judged on it's own merits. What sucks me in and keeps me engaged are the obvious references to other media with which I am familiar, whether it be Starship Troopers, or James Bond, or Dawn of War 2. It's obvious that the devs took a lot more inspiration for the game design than just the Star Wars universe.
I mean yes I COULD be evil, but somehow it doesn't make sense. If my Jedi became darkside, he would leave the order and go to the Empire. But... GAAAH all this PC talk, all this "oh yes, I serve all people, and all for free, no matter what WHINERS and QQers everyone is!" All this goody goodness makes me so sick after a while. Sir yes Sir, of course I help you find your lost socks, can I vacuum your rooms while I am hear because I live to serve!
Lightside Sith on the other hand is way more fun. You still can be mean now and then, it still makes SENSE, and you don't have such cheesy, goody good PC talk dialogues as Jedi!
*shudders*
Playing Jedi a longer time just makes me feel like I need to say something highly un-PC. Goodness.
I made a Consular/healer for the republic. I made him as chubby as I could, green and bald. He looks like a monk. So I play the part and try to help whoever I quest for.
I love being a good guy.
My 18 yr old Daughter, on the other hand, likes to be a bitch when she plays, so she is always being snippy and cruel to everyone. Cracks me up.
You don't really need to always pick light side choices, even if you want to play a lightside character. Sometimes a mix is good. I've made choices on my character that went against my chosen side because the decision in question required it.
If getting enough points is your concern, don't worry, it's very very easy to cap out either light or dark side. You usually get there before max level. So don't worry and make a few dark decision if the good ones don't fit what you want to do. You'll enjoy it more.
But...there is a achievement/title for going full Dark/Light guess you didnt know that and mixed it up before hand. For me that's a reason to go full Dark. Your choice if ya don't but I know some people remade there toon after making the wrong choice. I had the same with GW for not being killed first 20 levels, made tons of new ones cause I got careless at lvl 18 or 19.
I doubt this is accurate. You do not get anything from picking every light or dark side option. You get a title when you max out either side (light or dark V), but you can easily max out either even if you picked the opposite option here and there.
For example, I picked dark sides here and there even if I was going for light. I am now maxed in light (10k light) with 0 dark. When you get 10k total points, divided among both, when you start getting more points, they just shift to either side. If I currently pick a dark side option of 100, I'll have 9900 light/100 dark. Then later, when I pick a 100 light, I'll go max light again.
What I'm saying is that don't be afraid to pick the opposite to what you're going for if the story fits. You won't miss out on anything at endgame, gear, titles or anything otherwise.
This isn't about points so much, it is about dialogues. They feel SO cheesy and cliche. I don't want to be darkside Jedi, but I don't want to be nice to every whiner and always "Oh yes sir I LOVE to help, thats what I do, all of you in your tiny, meaningless problems you can't do because YOU ARE DUMB".
When Qui-Gon stranded on Tatooine, he "didn't actually come to free slaves". And he only used Anakin because he had midichlorians. If Anakin would have been a normal kid without the Force and without any connections or skills, Qui-Gon wouldn't have cared about his fate a damn. Because Jedi do important stuff! Ok sometimes they also do small stuff. But its like every QQer of the whole galaxy comes to me, and I am always "oh yes I help for free" "can I do anything ELSE for you?", its so feeling like bootlicking and PC talk. Where is the humor, the irony, the sarcasm and still being good? I mean, even a Jedi doesn't have to be dull and servile!
This is what I had to say about some of the Jedi Consular missions from my blog.
"You say we’re suppose to be heroes of our own story, yet you force us to do silly, lowly quest that any nearby peon should be doing. I do not think a Jedi is to high and mighty to clean toilets, but to have to clean toilet after toilet...please. If I wanted to be the hero of cleaning toilets I’d would have asked you to put in a janitorial class. Do you get what I am saying here? "
So I know what you are saying and I felt the same way while playing my Consular.
Actually if you dont want to be the toilet cleaner hero, you refuse the toilet cleaning quests. I find my self outleveling everything anyway all the time if I do every quest out there, and I very rarely accept the toilet quests.
I havent played much either of the Jedi classes so I dont know if the problem is in their main story lines, if it is, then I guess it explains why Empire outnumbers the Republic (which is bad design).
Comments
Reading the OP feels so strange since I have the same feeling when playing Sith.
In fact, the Bounty Hunter aside, all "Imperial Citizen" classes make me wanna puke. You're bound to support a regime - which is fortunately imaginary - that's literally worse than the Third Reich. Slaves, forced labor, discrimination, genocide, forced medical experiments, extreme hierarchy - you name it.
I played through level 20 with my Sith Inquisitor until I got so sick of supporting all the dissocial screw-ups and powerhungry monsters I happily logged back to my Jedi Consular.
Not that the Republic choices are all nice and cozy, but at least I as a player get a sense of companionship with my companions (whereas I loathed every single ar*ehole I met on Imp side) and a renewed sense of purpose after my trip to Dromund Kaas...
BTW the Jedi Code is very close to some forms of buddhism, e.g. the one the Shaolin monks are following. In fact, the Jedi is pretty much a friar with a saber. Someone who'd love to stroll through the gardens of the abby and think about the purpose of life but can't because there are people in the world who "just don't get it"...
I find this concept a lot more credible than the idea of a ruthless police state where nobody seems to have any friends not falling apart in seconds...
M
Playing the Empire classes is just the same. You get sick of the shallowness of the darkside choices, how utterly without motivation they are and how they are written to be evil for the sake of being evil.
Two words - it's Bioware.
Yeah, I get what your saying here, especially about it being horribly written in general. No doubt they sides were broken up into 'quest teams' to write and that probably accounts for why most think theres such a difference in the quality of the quests of the two factions.
I played a trooper in beta mainly though so I didn't see that particular quest... didn't it make sense in what the Jedi are at all? These guys are disspassionate agents of law, continiously putting the need for order and peace above the needs of a few... was it not in character?
Yea well that was to be expected.
Bioware games were never very deep, they just had a story-heavy gameplay and lots of dialogue choices. But even back in Baldurs Gates days, there weren't any really unexpected or multi-facetted characters.
If you want political/personal intrigue and really guess who's who you need to load "The Witcher"-games or go play PnP RPG. ATM I play Call of Cthulhu with my RPG-group and a female gamemaster and the story arcs she's pulling out of her sleeve make Bioware look like some teenage fanfiction. And she's not even a professional.
So yea, was to be expected, you just need to roll with Biowares Hollywood cliché fest ...
M
Ha, I once said this exact thing on the Bioware forums, which isn't surprising because many people feel the same. I said that the Witcher was an example of deeper, more gritty writing, an unsurprising opinion given it was written by a bona-fide writer, and that their games always treaded Hollywood storylines and one-dimensional stereotypes. Crucially, I said that I still enjoyed their games for what they are, but the community ripped me a new one anyway.
Apparently Bioware games have no literary equal - not even Chaucer! And this is why Bioware will never improve on their story-telling, despite their games being based on story-telling - a large percentage of people think the writing is a lot better than it is. A bit like Star Wars *ducks*
Don't cruxify me, I do like Star Wars!
Well typically I hate stereotypes but - yes, it's Bioware. Nowadays. Those people who left once made this company legend. They aren't anymore.
But why did you actually buy the game then, when you detest Bioware?
I don't hate Bioware, I quite enjoy their games. Doesn't mean that I need to absolutely adore everything about them, though. I can enjoy playing a RPG with mediocre writing, it is allowed. Or it ought to be: some folks hate people who like Bioware games (but not unconditionally) more than the trolls whose sole purpose is to bankrupt the company.
It's a strange world =P
that's also fortified by the notion of not being able to distinguish between thinking it is Hollywood cliche garbage and nit liking it...
I really Luke Hollywood garbage most of the times. Still, I wouldn't go ahead and claim that mission imposible 4 is right up there with pride and prejudice....
m
I don't think anyone was under the impression that they were buying Shakespeare when they picked up this game, in the same way that no one would confuse Lady GaGa with Beethoven, as far as modern music goes.
Everyone who knows Bioware knows to expect linear, on-rails worlds with limited dialogue choices, and any shallow options provided being more nice guy vs jerk, rather than good vs evil.
I think people bought the game and enjoy playing it because it is Star Wars, and because it is a fun game. Regardless of whether it is comparable to WoW, or any other mmo, I think it should stand and be judged on it's own merits. What sucks me in and keeps me engaged are the obvious references to other media with which I am familiar, whether it be Starship Troopers, or James Bond, or Dawn of War 2. It's obvious that the devs took a lot more inspiration for the game design than just the Star Wars universe.
I made a Consular/healer for the republic. I made him as chubby as I could, green and bald. He looks like a monk. So I play the part and try to help whoever I quest for.
I love being a good guy.
My 18 yr old Daughter, on the other hand, likes to be a bitch when she plays, so she is always being snippy and cruel to everyone. Cracks me up.
I doubt this is accurate. You do not get anything from picking every light or dark side option. You get a title when you max out either side (light or dark V), but you can easily max out either even if you picked the opposite option here and there.
For example, I picked dark sides here and there even if I was going for light. I am now maxed in light (10k light) with 0 dark. When you get 10k total points, divided among both, when you start getting more points, they just shift to either side. If I currently pick a dark side option of 100, I'll have 9900 light/100 dark. Then later, when I pick a 100 light, I'll go max light again.
What I'm saying is that don't be afraid to pick the opposite to what you're going for if the story fits. You won't miss out on anything at endgame, gear, titles or anything otherwise.
Besides you can use the diplomacy craft to farm either light/dark asmuch as you want.
Actually if you dont want to be the toilet cleaner hero, you refuse the toilet cleaning quests. I find my self outleveling everything anyway all the time if I do every quest out there, and I very rarely accept the toilet quests.
I havent played much either of the Jedi classes so I dont know if the problem is in their main story lines, if it is, then I guess it explains why Empire outnumbers the Republic (which is bad design).