Because mmo are huge projects, they need a lot of brain, experience and cohesion.
Also mmo can't be done like this, as the OP seam to think, you need some real brains with some experience that took years to think about their project before even gathering a team. Its not just "lets gather some data from the net and forum, shake it baby and throw the dice", that will never work for mmo because it need more cohesion than any other project.
Look at some of the last mmo, don't need to point anything. They took some really great elements, those elements are even better than the "gathered data from the net" the OP talk about, those are hard data coming from real commercial success. Well they took those, shake it baby and roll in. And you see what we got? Some "not that good" game. This just don't work like this, it's a bit like cooking (ye i like cooking). Well everyone love salt, meat and bread, but with those some people will make shitty food they'll barely be able to eat, other will have a good dish and will ask more of it.
I think developpers listen WAY TOO MUCH to their so called customers.
And the endresult is a bland product, that does not excell in anything, while trying to cater to as many as possible.
Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot were games that were made by people with a vision. They made the game like they wanted it to be, games they wanted to play themselves and have have a good time wasting time with. If you didn't like it, well too bad, you didn't play...simple as that. And to be honest, both games went downhill when the developpers started to "listen" to what the players wanted, most times fragmented ideas of people that didn't like a, b or c.
lol
UO got the AOS (Age of Shit) patch as the lead developer thought it woule be cool to implement Diablo 2 features into UO.
No one really asked for that stuff.. the developer decided it was the way to go ....
As for Trammel Sunswords said it would not be a mirror but as downloads were hard those days they still mirrored it :P
Ah yes, developers ... the animal that thinks they know it all, just to fail at reality :P
I think developpers listen WAY TOO MUCH to their so called customers.
And the endresult is a bland product, that does not excell in anything, while trying to cater to as many as possible.
Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot were games that were made by people with a vision. They made the game like they wanted it to be, games they wanted to play themselves and have have a good time wasting time with. If you didn't like it, well too bad, you didn't play...simple as that. And to be honest, both games went downhill when the developpers started to "listen" to what the players wanted, most times fragmented ideas of people that didn't like a, b or c.
Yes and no.
YES - games and especially mmropg's need VISIONARIES not just good workers that will copy & paste some ideas.
NO - It is not "we should carefully listen to consumers and do what they tell" vs. "we should do only what WE think is best".
Real mastery is knowing WHICH community ideas should be listened to AND having balls to shun off some community ideas as well.
Listening to everything / almost everything = 'enslaving' game to community and spiral downwards + losing core game concepts sooner or later
Not listening at all / almost at all = sooner or later failing hard like SWG failed with NGE.
Here is what i think. I think developpers listen WAY TOO MUCH to their so called customers. And the endresult is a bland product, that does not excell in anything, while trying to cater to as many as possible. Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot were games that were made by people with a vision. They made the game like they wanted it to be, games they wanted to play themselves and have have a good time wasting time with. If you didn't like it, well too bad, you didn't play...simple as that. And to be honest, both games went downhill when the developpers started to "listen" to what the players wanted, most times fragmented ideas of people that didn't like a, b or c.
lol UO got the AOS (Age of Shit) patch as the lead developer thought it woule be cool to implement Diablo 2 features into UO. No one really asked for that stuff.. the developer decided it was the way to go .... As for Trammel Sunswords said it would not be a mirror but as downloads were hard those days they still mirrored it :P Ah yes, developers ... the animal that thinks they know it all, just to fail at reality :P
Uo like SWG was literally massacred for commercial reasons. They saw other games getting more succeed so they wanted to do the same. So silly, especially for mmos. But i guess its a common behavior among game developers as the history shows us.
The big issue is that game companies are trying remake other MMOs.
What they need to do is have a clear vision of what THEY want to make, the vision should have clear goals and specific ideas, not the jumbled a something for everyone approach. Then each MMO , "love or Leave it", will have it's own soul, its own play style, it's own objectives. Players will gravitate to the MMO they like, rather than the entire community being forced to play the same old game and fighting with each other about how the opposed playstyles (pve vs. pvp) (solo vs. group) (casual vs. hardcore) (themepark vs sandbox) (crafting vs killing) are ruinning their MMO.
Imagine if a company followed Cryptic with thier 1.5 - 2 year MMO dev model but instead fthey had a vision to make say... a community world building game. The vision focuced on: Sandbox, World building, Exploring, and crafting. They would have a stable game with a unique playstyle that wouldn't worry that there wasn't any end game raids, no PvP, no PvE. Insead they would build around what thier ( Sandbox, World building, Exploring, and crafting) players wanted.
With the cheap game engines out there and the cheap hardware, it can be profitable to run a small MMO with less than 30,000 subs. A nice niche like Eve started with that can grow and evolve and innvoate rather than copy and paste.
Originally posted by Manarix Here is what i think. I think developpers listen WAY TOO MUCH to their so called customers. And the endresult is a bland product, that does not excell in anything, while trying to cater to as many as possible
While you largely oversimplify the problem, I agree with the vision part.
MMOs in early days had no other choice but try out their own ways, there was no competition, no other products to learn from but as the market grew up, it was becoming more apparent what players actually want, lead by examples of EQ and WoW.
But that was not the only thing that grew up, the rising development costs and player demands has become an issue. Regardless of vision you have, you need to deliver certain features or quality to make your product competitive. This has put strong pressure on developers as they needed larger revenues, revenues they might not achieve if they tried out something untested, something too different.
And that is what is great about BioWare and SWTOR. They do have a vision but instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, they focused on significant improvement of core gameplay and got something fresh, something new to the MMO genre.
I wasn't thinking we could see such large budget game to be released and it will be interesting to watch how BioWare's approach turns out.
Originally posted by rutaq Imagine if a company followed Cryptic with thier 1.5 - 2 year MMO dev model but instead fthey had a vision to make say... a community world building game.
Using middleware can significantly reduce development time but it will also severely limits and/or make very expensive any development shifting too much from original engine design.
You won't get diversity with middleware solutions.
I really like what Cryptic did with STO but it will not work for intentions you highlighted.
Polls, forums, etc. Just look at some of the polls here, and youwill see what so many would like. But they settle for dumbed down games and just go along with it.
If you want absolutely surefire guaranteed way to "get it so wrong" and be "so far off the mark on what players wanted", here it is:
Base your game on what people on the mmorpg.com forums demand.
Lol so true. Remember that car that homer simpson designed? Its kind of like that haha
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
kids, they want to make games as easy as possible for the little ones.
As some of the community want indepth, crafting, exploration, open world, streategy, skill, death penalties, and features galore.
They keep making these console style rpg games with tons of eye candy and lack of innovation for the kiddies which now take up most the community.
I wish a company would go back to old school mmos and actualy make a real mmo for a change. WOW realy hurt the mmo community by attracting the kids and the need for easy single player eye candy games
Dead horse...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
@posting this as a thread elsewhere because I believe this topic deserves more consideration
THEM
Mmorpgs are mostly created by developers who have spent their undergrad and graduate degree focus on programming, and business applications. Now add them to the corporate investor. This is a person who has either an MBA, a law degree, both, or is someone who grew up with wealth. Neither of these individuals studied history, understand the basics of human psychology, probably drank through their gen eds in their first year of university until they got to the coursework that interested them, i.e., programming and or business admin.
US, the vocal minority
Meanwhile, we, the consumers, read fantasy fiction by the hundreds of lbs annually (George R.R. Martin and Robert Jordan books make up some pretty heavy weight on my shelves). Some of us are from the old school (those who have not left the mmorpg genre completely), and recall our days in EQ, Ultima, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call). We are a vocal minority however, because there isn't one developing company that looks to our needs, interests, and academic capability, i.e., our level of intellectualism in regards to just what type of mmorpg we would enjoy.
The issue with the genre
Hence it's all easy quest, 2 faction mmorpgs where soloing to end game is the norm if not the expectation since even classes themselves are built for the independent player, i.e., the player who has little interest or capability in grouping with others. Mirrored classes save arguments between the smaller minded consumer and the overworked developer. Basic gratification through familiar entities that remind us of American football, i.e., capture the flag and Huttball, along with red vs blue team pvp in instanced environments where no one but us benefits (I mean, who really cares how xyz guild is doing in pvp these days, the maps will stay the same and your guild will never benefit from your own faction's victories).
The genre died when WoW made a billion dollars a year. Every dev tried to copy this as the cut and paste corporate model of success in the same way the Ford assembly line changed production during American's industrial revolution.
A New Hope
Keep your eyes on 38 Studios (previously, Green Monster Games), however. They are following the Blizzard format of success (i.e., create a very good RPG before you use that same world for an mmorpg). Here you have Tod McFarland on art, R.A. Salvatore on writing (good Lord if you don't know this man than you might want to look at the Drizzt Do'urden/Forgotten Realms novels (20 years of product to sift through at your leisure).
Point is, we have an able company here that will most likely rewrite the corporate model. People will see this company's mmorpg arguably by around 2015-2017. I am guessing these folks are the Messiah of the industry that a pariah people, namely, the better educated consumers of this market, have been waiting for to lead us out of the wilderness of mediocrity.
kids, they want to make games as easy as possible for the little ones.
As some of the community want indepth, crafting, exploration, open world, streategy, skill, death penalties, and features galore.
They keep making these console style rpg games with tons of eye candy and lack of innovation for the kiddies which now take up most the community.
I wish a company would go back to old school mmos and actualy make a real mmo for a change. WOW realy hurt the mmo community by attracting the kids and the need for easy single player eye candy games
The community is too divided to even agree on one game. SWTOR was someones savior, the way STO, AOC, CoC, MineCraft, EvE. ect...
Archage, GW2, Tera, TSW will do the same.
To many of you have your own vision of what an MMO should be or how it should feel, even what it should or shouldn't include.
@posting this as a thread elsewhere because I believe this topic deserves more consideration
THEM
Mmorpgs are mostly created by developers who have spent their undergrad and graduate degree focus on programming, and business applications. Now add them to the corporate investor. This is a person who has either an MBA, a law degree, both, or is someone who grew up with wealth. Neither of these individuals studied history, understand the basics of human psychology, probably drank through their gen eds in their first year of university until they got to the coursework that interested them, i.e., programming and or business admin.
US, the vocal minority
Meanwhile, we, the consumers, read fantasy fiction by the hundreds of lbs annually (George R.R. Martin and Robert Jordan books make up some pretty heavy weight on my shelves). Some of us are from the old school (those who have not left the mmorpg genre completely), and recall our days in EQ, Ultima, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call). We are a vocal minority however, because there isn't one developing company that looks to our needs, interests, and academic capability, i.e., our level of intellectualism in regards to just what type of mmorpg we would enjoy.
The issue with the genre
Hence it's all easy quest, 2 faction mmorpgs where soloing to end game is the norm if not the expectation since even classes themselves are built for the independent player, i.e., the player who has little interest or capability in grouping with others. Mirrored classes save arguments between the smaller minded consumer and the overworked developer. Basic gratification through familiar entities that remind us of American football, i.e., capture the flag and Huttball, along with red vs blue team pvp in instanced environments where no one but us benefits (I mean, who really cares how xyz guild is doing in pvp these days, the maps will stay the same and your guild will never benefit from your own faction's victories).
The genre died when WoW made a billion dollars a year. Every dev tried to copy this as the cut and paste corporate model of success in the same way the Ford assembly line changed production during American's industrial revolution.
A New Hope
Keep your eyes on 38 Studios (previously, Green Monster Games), however. They are following the Blizzard format of success (i.e., create a very good RPG before you use that same world for an mmorpg). Here you have Tod McFarland on art, R.A. Salvatore on writing (good Lord if you don't know this man than you might want to look at the Drizzt Do'urden/Forgotten Realms novels (20 years of product to sift through at your leisure).
Point is, we have an able company here that will most likely rewrite the corporate model. People will see this company's mmorpg arguably by around 2015-2017. I am guessing these folks are the Messiah of the industry that a pariah people, namely, the better educated consumers of this market, have been waiting for to lead us out of the wilderness of mediocrity.
One can only hope.
Comaf = Curt Schilling(baseball legend and 38 Studios founder)?
Seriously, 38 Studios has a deep talent pool and I am excited for their product, but I think it is a bit premature to declare them the messiah. Let's first see how Kingdoms of Amalur turns out in Feb.
kids, they want to make games as easy as possible for the little ones.
As some of the community want indepth, crafting, exploration, open world, streategy, skill, death penalties, and features galore.
They keep making these console style rpg games with tons of eye candy and lack of innovation for the kiddies which now take up most the community.
I wish a company would go back to old school mmos and actualy make a real mmo for a change. WOW realy hurt the mmo community by attracting the kids and the need for easy single player eye candy games
The community is too divided to even agree on one game. SWTOR was someones savior, the way STO, AOC, CoC, MineCraft, EvE. ect...
Archage, GW2, Tera, TSW will do the same.
To many of you have your own vision of what an MMO should be or how it should feel, even what it should or shouldn't include.
That sounded extremely corporate of you. You are right about many of us having a vision. What is your vision of a viable, high quality mmorpg? Does the industry appease you or do you have issues with cut and paste pvp and the same gear grind year after year?
Did you reach end game in Dark Age of Camelot? Everquest 1? If you did, then you can join our argument. See things as we see it. You will note the lack of immersion in today's mmorpgs - period. We have multi player video games today - not mmoRPGs.
Surely you can see that if you grew up with the industry as we, the vocal minority have. Otherwise, if Age of Conan and Eve are your first mmorpgs, than I can understand your confusion.
@posting this as a thread elsewhere because I believe this topic deserves more consideration
THEM
Mmorpgs are mostly created by developers who have spent their undergrad and graduate degree focus on programming, and business applications. Now add them to the corporate investor. This is a person who has either an MBA, a law degree, both, or is someone who grew up with wealth. Neither of these individuals studied history, understand the basics of human psychology, probably drank through their gen eds in their first year of university until they got to the coursework that interested them, i.e., programming and or business admin.
US, the vocal minority
Meanwhile, we, the consumers, read fantasy fiction by the hundreds of lbs annually (George R.R. Martin and Robert Jordan books make up some pretty heavy weight on my shelves). Some of us are from the old school (those who have not left the mmorpg genre completely), and recall our days in EQ, Ultima, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call). We are a vocal minority however, because there isn't one developing company that looks to our needs, interests, and academic capability, i.e., our level of intellectualism in regards to just what type of mmorpg we would enjoy.
The issue with the genre
Hence it's all easy quest, 2 faction mmorpgs where soloing to end game is the norm if not the expectation since even classes themselves are built for the independent player, i.e., the player who has little interest or capability in grouping with others. Mirrored classes save arguments between the smaller minded consumer and the overworked developer. Basic gratification through familiar entities that remind us of American football, i.e., capture the flag and Huttball, along with red vs blue team pvp in instanced environments where no one but us benefits (I mean, who really cares how xyz guild is doing in pvp these days, the maps will stay the same and your guild will never benefit from your own faction's victories).
The genre died when WoW made a billion dollars a year. Every dev tried to copy this as the cut and paste corporate model of success in the same way the Ford assembly line changed production during American's industrial revolution.
A New Hope
Keep your eyes on 38 Studios (previously, Green Monster Games), however. They are following the Blizzard format of success (i.e., create a very good RPG before you use that same world for an mmorpg). Here you have Tod McFarland on art, R.A. Salvatore on writing (good Lord if you don't know this man than you might want to look at the Drizzt Do'urden/Forgotten Realms novels (20 years of product to sift through at your leisure).
Point is, we have an able company here that will most likely rewrite the corporate model. People will see this company's mmorpg arguably by around 2015-2017. I am guessing these folks are the Messiah of the industry that a pariah people, namely, the better educated consumers of this market, have been waiting for to lead us out of the wilderness of mediocrity.
One can only hope.
Comaf = Curt Schilling(baseball legend and 38 Studios founder)?
Seriously, 38 Studios has a deep talent pool and I am excited for their product, but I think it is a bit premature to declare them the messiah. Let's first see how Kingdoms of Amalur turns out in Feb.
I have no relation to Mr. Schilling. I am just (probably too vocal) a gamer from the old school days that really loves a good fiction read and seeks to see some similarity in epic quality in the mmoprg I purchase and spend hours on. Sadly, as I pointed out in my post, many of us are still waiting for an mmorpg to be made for a more adult group of gamers who apparently have very high expectations (i.e., we want a continuation of what was started when the mmorpg industry released the titles I mentioned).
And to sound less eloquent here, I swear if I see one more mmorpg with an elementary school playground pvp mechanic where I have to capture a flag or run a ball, tooth, flag, what have you from point A to B, I'm going to chop off my hands.
In all seriousness, as much as even the younger generation enjoys the three to six months of a particular game before something new comes out, even THEY must get bored of cut and paste instanced pvp mechanics.
Companies need to focus on immersion, and enabling players to make the world affected by their actions. This is why something as mundane as territorial control, even if it shifts hands non stop, is still a much more functional pvp event than pushing a "find the instanced pvp event" button on your screen and knocking off ten minutes of your life.
Secondly, and here's a perfect example of developers NOT learning from past mistakes, players need more factions. Sandbox is great, you have TONS of factions in theory because of the guild options being fairly unlimited. In a factional model, however, the 2 faction model is especially broken due to players tending to migrate to what they perceive as the stronger faction. In SW:ToR we already have this effect. Some servers are so Empire heavy that Repub players are non-stop migrating. You need a THIRD FACTION to break this up. Even if it is a small faction, it will still be a wild card. This means that when faction A is tearing up faction B...that faction C can come in and ruin the lockdown, or even possible statelmate. (stale is part of the word stalemate, I find that interesting ;p).
Developers need to take a fresh look at the genre, rethink the mechanics, and move forward. We have been a stagnant genre for years now. Let's try something new, or as in the case of my post, something old?
There is so much more potential to this industry, and yet, so few companies have the vision to see that. They have literally built a market around a very low expectation audience who more than likely knows very little of the background behind the genre and ficition/sci fi in general.
kids, they want to make games as easy as possible for the little ones.
As some of the community want indepth, crafting, exploration, open world, streategy, skill, death penalties, and features galore.
They keep making these console style rpg games with tons of eye candy and lack of innovation for the kiddies which now take up most the community.
I wish a company would go back to old school mmos and actualy make a real mmo for a change. WOW realy hurt the mmo community by attracting the kids and the need for easy single player eye candy games
The community is too divided to even agree on one game. SWTOR was someones savior, the way STO, AOC, CoC, MineCraft, EvE. ect...
Archage, GW2, Tera, TSW will do the same.
To many of you have your own vision of what an MMO should be or how it should feel, even what it should or shouldn't include.
That sounded extremely corporate of you. You are right about many of us having a vision. What is your vision of a viable, high quality mmorpg? Does the industry appease you or do you have issues with cut and paste pvp and the same gear grind year after year?
Did you reach end game in Dark Age of Camelot? Everquest 1? If you did, then you can join our argument. See things as we see it. You will note the lack of immersion in today's mmorpgs - period. We have multi player video games today - not mmoRPGs.
Surely you can see that if you grew up with the industry as we, the vocal minority have. Otherwise, if Age of Conan and Eve are your first mmorpgs, than I can understand your confusion.
kids, they want to make games as easy as possible for the little ones.
As some of the community want indepth, crafting, exploration, open world, streategy, skill, death penalties, and features galore.
They keep making these console style rpg games with tons of eye candy and lack of innovation for the kiddies which now take up most the community.
I wish a company would go back to old school mmos and actualy make a real mmo for a change. WOW realy hurt the mmo community by attracting the kids and the need for easy single player eye candy games
The community is too divided to even agree on one game. SWTOR was someones savior, the way STO, AOC, CoC, MineCraft, EvE. ect...
Archage, GW2, Tera, TSW will do the same.
To many of you have your own vision of what an MMO should be or how it should feel, even what it should or shouldn't include.
That sounded extremely corporate of you. You are right about many of us having a vision. What is your vision of a viable, high quality mmorpg? Does the industry appease you or do you have issues with cut and paste pvp and the same gear grind year after year?
Did you reach end game in Dark Age of Camelot? Everquest 1? If you did, then you can join our argument. See things as we see it. You will note the lack of immersion in today's mmorpgs - period. We have multi player video games today - not mmoRPGs.
Surely you can see that if you grew up with the industry as we, the vocal minority have. Otherwise, if Age of Conan and Eve are your first mmorpgs, than I can understand your confusion.
Eq/Dark Age of Camelot's immersive quality, the very reason so many gamers have these intense memories that make them dream of the old gaming days, in no way can be compared to PONG lol.
What you have done is looked at the cosmetic. You see pong, which promoted part of the video game industry, and then it's final successor, Virtual Tennis, and said, "look, Pong was good in its time, but this is where it's at now..."
That is a different argument. I am pointing out beyond the purely cosmetic and looking at the depth of the product itself. Pong had nearly 0 depth due to programming constraints of the period. Everquest, Ultima, Dark Age, Asheron's Call, were epic in proportion when you compare them to the crap on the shelf we have now.
And if you want to go for programming potential, SW:ToR is slaughtered by games made in Korea that I can't even pronounce. So we are not talking about a simple format that birthed an industry, i.e, PONG, we are talkiing about massively multi player in depth gaming, and trying to see a solution to the failure of the industry to continue from that level of quality.
Unfortunately, as you know, progress in the genre moves at the speed of glaciers at best. The reason is that the big studios can't take huge risks with investors money(hundreds of millions) on a totally new and unproven model. The smaller companies who try totally new mechanics fail hard for a number of reasons. The primary reason for their failure is that the majority of gamers want their familiar flavor in every game, while still demanding totally new ideas(the obvious contradiction facing the industry). Games like Darkfall Online, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth, Xsyon and others all try something new but can't draw in enough customers to have enough money to polish the games, which would in turn draw more customers. If 38 Studios makes an MMO, you can be sure it will only slightly tweak the WoW/Rift/SWTOR formula or it will fall to the wayside like DF, MO, Xsyon, etc.
The reason is that the big studios can't take huge risks with investors money(hundreds of millions) on a totally new and unproven model.
----------------
Thank you Huskie. Is the three faction immersive mmorpg unproven though? Upgrade a game like Dark Age of Camelot to today's graphical standards and create a few fresh start servers and you'd have an overnight sucess. It may never be the 12,000,000 players of some mmorpgs like Perfect World or Wow, just like you'll never have a nice Italian restaurant reach the same peak of patrons as McDonald's, but you can have a very viable product.
Another proven market is the Everquest market. These gamers aren't so much into in depth pvp with siege warfare and territorial battles, along with zero mirrored classes and truly dedicated cultures to each race, but they love complex pve and questing. So there's another market that is as of now been proven to be successful - albeit 10 years ago, but I am sure still exists.
kids, they want to make games as easy as possible for the little ones.
As some of the community want indepth, crafting, exploration, open world, streategy, skill, death penalties, and features galore.
They keep making these console style rpg games with tons of eye candy and lack of innovation for the kiddies which now take up most the community.
I wish a company would go back to old school mmos and actualy make a real mmo for a change. WOW realy hurt the mmo community by attracting the kids and the need for easy single player eye candy games
The community is too divided to even agree on one game. SWTOR was someones savior, the way STO, AOC, CoC, MineCraft, EvE. ect...
Archage, GW2, Tera, TSW will do the same.
To many of you have your own vision of what an MMO should be or how it should feel, even what it should or shouldn't include.
That sounded extremely corporate of you. You are right about many of us having a vision. What is your vision of a viable, high quality mmorpg? Does the industry appease you or do you have issues with cut and paste pvp and the same gear grind year after year?
Did you reach end game in Dark Age of Camelot? Everquest 1? If you did, then you can join our argument. See things as we see it. You will note the lack of immersion in today's mmorpgs - period. We have multi player video games today - not mmoRPGs.
Surely you can see that if you grew up with the industry as we, the vocal minority have. Otherwise, if Age of Conan and Eve are your first mmorpgs, than I can understand your confusion.
Eq/Dark Age of Camelot's immersive quality, the very reason so many gamers have these intense memories that make them dream of the old gaming days, in no way can be compared to PONG lol.
What you have done is looked at the cosmetic. You see pong, which promoted part of the video game industry, and then it's final successor, Virtual Tennis, and said, "look, Pong was good in its time, but this is where it's at now..."
That is a different argument. I am pointing out beyond the purely cosmetic and looking at the depth of the product itself. Pong had nearly 0 depth due to programming constraints of the period. Everquest, Ultima, Dark Age, Asheron's Call, were epic in proportion when you compare them to the crap on the shelf we have now.
And if you want to go for programming potential, SW:ToR is slaughtered by games made in Korea that I can't even pronounce. So we are not talking about a simple format that birthed an industry, i.e, PONG, we are talkiing about massively multi player in depth gaming, and trying to see a solution to the failure of the industry to continue from that level of quality.
This is exactlly what you are doing now!
Its really not hard to see how much more depth one has one over the other. If it's too much info for you to grasp at this time, take a break walk outside maybe when you are ready you will understand.
kids, they want to make games as easy as possible for the little ones.
As some of the community want indepth, crafting, exploration, open world, streategy, skill, death penalties, and features galore.
They keep making these console style rpg games with tons of eye candy and lack of innovation for the kiddies which now take up most the community.
I wish a company would go back to old school mmos and actualy make a real mmo for a change. WOW realy hurt the mmo community by attracting the kids and the need for easy single player eye candy games
The community is too divided to even agree on one game. SWTOR was someones savior, the way STO, AOC, CoC, MineCraft, EvE. ect...
Archage, GW2, Tera, TSW will do the same.
To many of you have your own vision of what an MMO should be or how it should feel, even what it should or shouldn't include.
That sounded extremely corporate of you. You are right about many of us having a vision. What is your vision of a viable, high quality mmorpg? Does the industry appease you or do you have issues with cut and paste pvp and the same gear grind year after year?
Did you reach end game in Dark Age of Camelot? Everquest 1? If you did, then you can join our argument. See things as we see it. You will note the lack of immersion in today's mmorpgs - period. We have multi player video games today - not mmoRPGs.
Surely you can see that if you grew up with the industry as we, the vocal minority have. Otherwise, if Age of Conan and Eve are your first mmorpgs, than I can understand your confusion.
Eq/Dark Age of Camelot's immersive quality, the very reason so many gamers have these intense memories that make them dream of the old gaming days, in no way can be compared to PONG lol.
What you have done is looked at the cosmetic. You see pong, which promoted part of the video game industry, and then it's final successor, Virtual Tennis, and said, "look, Pong was good in its time, but this is where it's at now..."
That is a different argument. I am pointing out beyond the purely cosmetic and looking at the depth of the product itself. Pong had nearly 0 depth due to programming constraints of the period. Everquest, Ultima, Dark Age, Asheron's Call, were epic in proportion when you compare them to the crap on the shelf we have now.
And if you want to go for programming potential, SW:ToR is slaughtered by games made in Korea that I can't even pronounce. So we are not talking about a simple format that birthed an industry, i.e, PONG, we are talkiing about massively multi player in depth gaming, and trying to see a solution to the failure of the industry to continue from that level of quality.
This is exactlly what you are doing now!
Its really not hard to see how much more depth one has one over the other. If it's too much info for you to grasp at this time, take a break walk outside maybe when you are ready you will understand.
I'm sorry friend, I am not even sure why you are defending mediocrity in the genre. I am also not really following the few sentences of your argument, and I can already see that you are leaning on a line of commentary that leads to nowhere, ie., telling me this might be too much to grasp.
I think grad school years ago taught me to really look at an argument with some fair examples prepared for my side of the debate. A few comments and a final sputtering that says I can't grasp my own topic shows failure in the discussion. However, if you want to list some fine points and defend why you feel that your Pong evolves to Virtual Tennis is the same as a quality mmorpg like Dark Age of Camelot evolves to SW:ToR, be my guest But put some effort into it man!
Just think of a debate class and how that experience might help here. We want to progress this into something viable, maybe even get lucky if a developer is reading this. We don't want to go into cutting each other down because that just won't get us anywhere.
If you put something with some depth here to explain your position, then I'll reply. Until then, it won't be fair to the topic to make further comments on your behalf. /salute
I oversimplify the industry as a comparison between the big box store and the local hardware store. I go to the big boxes all the time. There I can buy groceries, ammo, shoes, movies and legos all in one stop.
But I still go to the hardware store for specific needs. No, it doesn't sell movies, has a limited shoe selection and its prices on ammo are five-dollars higher, but I can have a conversation with the owner about specific tools and projects. I am paying for more than just an object.
There are lots of big-box MMOs out there. Seems that's the goal of most game companies. If they can't get filthy rich off their product, then it isn't worth doing. It's not enough just to stay in business and keep your family fed and sheltered. They need to afford three cars and home-entertainment systems that rival movie theatres. They need to live in homes that have extra rooms.
I could rant that we are all slaves to media-driven consumerism and put Lenin and Mao to shame.
My frustration with the gaming industry is that I can't find my product: no one is selling a pair of shoes that fits, neither the indies or the big boxes. I can't find a good, local hardware store. I am subscribing to a couple of themeparks, but they start to frustrate me in cycles. I tried a few sandboxes but got tired of having sand constantly kicked in my face.
I am better off logging out and going for a run with my dog.
kids, they want to make games as easy as possible for the little ones.
As some of the community want indepth, crafting, exploration, open world, streategy, skill, death penalties, and features galore.
They keep making these console style rpg games with tons of eye candy and lack of innovation for the kiddies which now take up most the community.
I wish a company would go back to old school mmos and actualy make a real mmo for a change. WOW realy hurt the mmo community by attracting the kids and the need for easy single player eye candy games
The community is too divided to even agree on one game. SWTOR was someones savior, the way STO, AOC, CoC, MineCraft, EvE. ect...
Archage, GW2, Tera, TSW will do the same.
To many of you have your own vision of what an MMO should be or how it should feel, even what it should or shouldn't include.
That sounded extremely corporate of you. You are right about many of us having a vision. What is your vision of a viable, high quality mmorpg? Does the industry appease you or do you have issues with cut and paste pvp and the same gear grind year after year?
Did you reach end game in Dark Age of Camelot? Everquest 1? If you did, then you can join our argument. See things as we see it. You will note the lack of immersion in today's mmorpgs - period. We have multi player video games today - not mmoRPGs.
Surely you can see that if you grew up with the industry as we, the vocal minority have. Otherwise, if Age of Conan and Eve are your first mmorpgs, than I can understand your confusion.
Eq/Dark Age of Camelot's immersive quality, the very reason so many gamers have these intense memories that make them dream of the old gaming days, in no way can be compared to PONG lol.
What you have done is looked at the cosmetic. You see pong, which promoted part of the video game industry, and then it's final successor, Virtual Tennis, and said, "look, Pong was good in its time, but this is where it's at now..."
That is a different argument. I am pointing out beyond the purely cosmetic and looking at the depth of the product itself. Pong had nearly 0 depth due to programming constraints of the period. Everquest, Ultima, Dark Age, Asheron's Call, were epic in proportion when you compare them to the crap on the shelf we have now.
And if you want to go for programming potential, SW:ToR is slaughtered by games made in Korea that I can't even pronounce. So we are not talking about a simple format that birthed an industry, i.e, PONG, we are talkiing about massively multi player in depth gaming, and trying to see a solution to the failure of the industry to continue from that level of quality.
This is exactlly what you are doing now!
Its really not hard to see how much more depth one has one over the other. If it's too much info for you to grasp at this time, take a break walk outside maybe when you are ready you will understand.
I'm sorry friend, I am not even sure why you are defending mediocrity in the genre. I am also not really following the few sentences of your argument, and I can already see that you are leaning on a line of commentary that leads to nowhere, ie., telling me this might be too much to grasp.
I think grad school years ago taught me to really look at an argument with some fair examples prepared for my side of the debate. A few comments and a final sputtering that says I can't grasp my own topic shows failure in the discussion. However, if you want to list some fine points and defend why you feel that your Pong evolves to Virtual Tennis is the same as a quality mmorpg like Dark Age of Camelot evolves to SW:ToR, be my guest But put some effort into it man!
Just think of a debate class and how that experience might help here. We want to progress this into something viable, maybe even get lucky if a developer is reading this. We don't want to go into cutting each other down because that just won't get us anywhere.
If you put something with some depth here to explain your position, then I'll reply. Until then, it won't be fair to the topic to make further comments on your behalf. /salute
Video games are suppose to be fun and entertaining.
Next thing you know someone here will start Lobbying Congress to pass some kind of Barvarian Purity Law to try and keep MMORPG original and true.
Eq/Dark Age of Camelot's immersive quality, the very reason so many gamers have these intense memories that make them dream of the old gaming days, in no way can be compared to PONG lol.
What you have done is looked at the cosmetic. You see pong, which promoted part of the video game industry, and then it's final successor, Virtual Tennis, and said, "look, Pong was good in its time, but this is where it's at now..."
That is a different argument. I am pointing out beyond the purely cosmetic and looking at the depth of the product itself. Pong had nearly 0 depth due to programming constraints of the period. Everquest, Ultima, Dark Age, Asheron's Call, were epic in proportion when you compare them to the crap on the shelf we have now.
And if you want to go for programming potential, SW:ToR is slaughtered by games made in Korea that I can't even pronounce. So we are not talking about a simple format that birthed an industry, i.e, PONG, we are talkiing about massively multi player in depth gaming, and trying to see a solution to the failure of the industry to continue from that level of quality.
There is a very odd perception issue with a lot of people (not the person I'm quoting).
One of the responses I see the most when people talk about the decline of MMO's is "easy mode" gaming. That perception is entirely wrong... Even if you accept it as true there is no reason for the quality of that product to be as bad as it is. Just because I make it easier for you to do something does not mean by default the game is crap. Its just an easier version.
If you look at a game like Ultima Online or EQ in comparison to a modern MMO you will see a lot less of everything. (in the "modern" MMO)
However, what will stand out the most is how ugly those games are. (big UO fan here by the way).
So that gives people the idea it was easier to make those games. It is actually much easier to design a "modern MMO". The tools we have available now either eclipse any previous tool or there was nothing comparable then.
That goes from the artist right down to the programmer.
To me the largest problem is you take that "easy mode gaming" phrase and turn it into "easy mode development".
Point being they remove as much as they think they can get away with and cut as many corners as they think they can... so they can ship something as soon as possible.
Just because you make encounters "easier" or make it so I can solo most things.. should not by default mean that all options for character advancement are largely taken away... that class choice is largely non existant or that all classes start to become the same. Some of the most complex games with great depth were designed for a single player audience.. there is absolutely no reason an MMO designed to be "easy mode" cannot have depth and complexity.
I just wish people would stop trying to blame other "customers" or gamers.. for things that should be put directly on developers.
*edit* To be honest I think the main reason for givng the least possible is current companies have a very dificult time fixing things that go wrong. So they need to keep it as simple as possible. When you think how complex older games were and they had no other examples to look at... they just seemed to have people capable of doing much more.
Perhaps a lot of it... comes down to the quality of talent available or people willing to work for what a development company pays. In the older days there may have been a much higher factor of people who just liked programming/art and wanted to make a game... where income wasn't high on their list of important things. /shrug
Eq/Dark Age of Camelot's immersive quality, the very reason so many gamers have these intense memories that make them dream of the old gaming days, in no way can be compared to PONG lol.
What you have done is looked at the cosmetic. You see pong, which promoted part of the video game industry, and then it's final successor, Virtual Tennis, and said, "look, Pong was good in its time, but this is where it's at now..."
That is a different argument. I am pointing out beyond the purely cosmetic and looking at the depth of the product itself. Pong had nearly 0 depth due to programming constraints of the period. Everquest, Ultima, Dark Age, Asheron's Call, were epic in proportion when you compare them to the crap on the shelf we have now.
And if you want to go for programming potential, SW:ToR is slaughtered by games made in Korea that I can't even pronounce. So we are not talking about a simple format that birthed an industry, i.e, PONG, we are talkiing about massively multi player in depth gaming, and trying to see a solution to the failure of the industry to continue from that level of quality.
There is a very odd perception issue with a lot of people (not the person I'm quoting).
One of the responses I see the most when people talk about the decline of MMO's is "easy mode" gaming. That perception is entirely wrong... Even if you accept it as true there is no reason for the quality of that product to be as bad as it is. Just because I make it easier for you to do something does not mean by default the game is crap. Its just an easier version.
If you look at a game like Ultima Online or EQ in comparison to a modern MMO you will see a lot less of everything. (in the "modern" MMO)
However, what will stand out the most is how ugly those games are. (big UO fan here by the way).
So that gives people the idea it was easier to make those games. It is actually much easier to design a "modern MMO". The tools we have available now either eclipse any previous tool or there was nothing comparable then.
That goes from the artist right down to the programmer.
To me the largest problem is you take that "easy mode gaming" phrase and turn it into "easy mode development".
Point being they remove as much as they think they can get away with and cut as many corners as they think they can... so they can ship something as soon as possible.
Just because you make encounters "easier" or make it so I can solo most things.. should not by default mean that all options for character advancement are largely taken away... that class choice is largely non existant or that all classes start to become the same. Some of the most complex games with great depth were designed for a single player audience.. there is absolutely no reason an MMO designed to be "easy mode" cannot have depth and complexity.
I just wish people would stop trying to blame other "customers" or gamers.. for things that should be put directly on developers.
Volume over quality, not the first industry to do it.
one reason they could miss so badly is because you have x number of million players and each one have their opinion of the perfect game and how it should be.
Comments
Because mmo are huge projects, they need a lot of brain, experience and cohesion.
Also mmo can't be done like this, as the OP seam to think, you need some real brains with some experience that took years to think about their project before even gathering a team. Its not just "lets gather some data from the net and forum, shake it baby and throw the dice", that will never work for mmo because it need more cohesion than any other project.
Look at some of the last mmo, don't need to point anything. They took some really great elements, those elements are even better than the "gathered data from the net" the OP talk about, those are hard data coming from real commercial success. Well they took those, shake it baby and roll in. And you see what we got? Some "not that good" game. This just don't work like this, it's a bit like cooking (ye i like cooking). Well everyone love salt, meat and bread, but with those some people will make shitty food they'll barely be able to eat, other will have a good dish and will ask more of it.
lol
UO got the AOS (Age of Shit) patch as the lead developer thought it woule be cool to implement Diablo 2 features into UO.
No one really asked for that stuff.. the developer decided it was the way to go ....
As for Trammel Sunswords said it would not be a mirror but as downloads were hard those days they still mirrored it :P
Ah yes, developers ... the animal that thinks they know it all, just to fail at reality :P
Yes and no.
YES - games and especially mmropg's need VISIONARIES not just good workers that will copy & paste some ideas.
NO - It is not "we should carefully listen to consumers and do what they tell" vs. "we should do only what WE think is best".
Real mastery is knowing WHICH community ideas should be listened to AND having balls to shun off some community ideas as well.
Listening to everything / almost everything = 'enslaving' game to community and spiral downwards + losing core game concepts sooner or later
Not listening at all / almost at all = sooner or later failing hard like SWG failed with NGE.
Uo like SWG was literally massacred for commercial reasons. They saw other games getting more succeed so they wanted to do the same. So silly, especially for mmos. But i guess its a common behavior among game developers as the history shows us.
The big issue is that game companies are trying remake other MMOs.
What they need to do is have a clear vision of what THEY want to make, the vision should have clear goals and specific ideas, not the jumbled a something for everyone approach. Then each MMO , "love or Leave it", will have it's own soul, its own play style, it's own objectives. Players will gravitate to the MMO they like, rather than the entire community being forced to play the same old game and fighting with each other about how the opposed playstyles (pve vs. pvp) (solo vs. group) (casual vs. hardcore) (themepark vs sandbox) (crafting vs killing) are ruinning their MMO.
Imagine if a company followed Cryptic with thier 1.5 - 2 year MMO dev model but instead fthey had a vision to make say... a community world building game. The vision focuced on: Sandbox, World building, Exploring, and crafting. They would have a stable game with a unique playstyle that wouldn't worry that there wasn't any end game raids, no PvP, no PvE. Insead they would build around what thier ( Sandbox, World building, Exploring, and crafting) players wanted.
With the cheap game engines out there and the cheap hardware, it can be profitable to run a small MMO with less than 30,000 subs. A nice niche like Eve started with that can grow and evolve and innvoate rather than copy and paste.
While you largely oversimplify the problem, I agree with the vision part.
MMOs in early days had no other choice but try out their own ways, there was no competition, no other products to learn from but as the market grew up, it was becoming more apparent what players actually want, lead by examples of EQ and WoW.
But that was not the only thing that grew up, the rising development costs and player demands has become an issue. Regardless of vision you have, you need to deliver certain features or quality to make your product competitive. This has put strong pressure on developers as they needed larger revenues, revenues they might not achieve if they tried out something untested, something too different.
And that is what is great about BioWare and SWTOR. They do have a vision but instead of trying to re-invent the wheel, they focused on significant improvement of core gameplay and got something fresh, something new to the MMO genre.
I wasn't thinking we could see such large budget game to be released and it will be interesting to watch how BioWare's approach turns out.
Using middleware can significantly reduce development time but it will also severely limits and/or make very expensive any development shifting too much from original engine design.
You won't get diversity with middleware solutions.
I really like what Cryptic did with STO but it will not work for intentions you highlighted.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Dead horse...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
@posting this as a thread elsewhere because I believe this topic deserves more consideration
THEM
Mmorpgs are mostly created by developers who have spent their undergrad and graduate degree focus on programming, and business applications. Now add them to the corporate investor. This is a person who has either an MBA, a law degree, both, or is someone who grew up with wealth. Neither of these individuals studied history, understand the basics of human psychology, probably drank through their gen eds in their first year of university until they got to the coursework that interested them, i.e., programming and or business admin.
US, the vocal minority
Meanwhile, we, the consumers, read fantasy fiction by the hundreds of lbs annually (George R.R. Martin and Robert Jordan books make up some pretty heavy weight on my shelves). Some of us are from the old school (those who have not left the mmorpg genre completely), and recall our days in EQ, Ultima, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call). We are a vocal minority however, because there isn't one developing company that looks to our needs, interests, and academic capability, i.e., our level of intellectualism in regards to just what type of mmorpg we would enjoy.
The issue with the genre
Hence it's all easy quest, 2 faction mmorpgs where soloing to end game is the norm if not the expectation since even classes themselves are built for the independent player, i.e., the player who has little interest or capability in grouping with others. Mirrored classes save arguments between the smaller minded consumer and the overworked developer. Basic gratification through familiar entities that remind us of American football, i.e., capture the flag and Huttball, along with red vs blue team pvp in instanced environments where no one but us benefits (I mean, who really cares how xyz guild is doing in pvp these days, the maps will stay the same and your guild will never benefit from your own faction's victories).
The genre died when WoW made a billion dollars a year. Every dev tried to copy this as the cut and paste corporate model of success in the same way the Ford assembly line changed production during American's industrial revolution.
A New Hope
Keep your eyes on 38 Studios (previously, Green Monster Games), however. They are following the Blizzard format of success (i.e., create a very good RPG before you use that same world for an mmorpg). Here you have Tod McFarland on art, R.A. Salvatore on writing (good Lord if you don't know this man than you might want to look at the Drizzt Do'urden/Forgotten Realms novels (20 years of product to sift through at your leisure).
Point is, we have an able company here that will most likely rewrite the corporate model. People will see this company's mmorpg arguably by around 2015-2017. I am guessing these folks are the Messiah of the industry that a pariah people, namely, the better educated consumers of this market, have been waiting for to lead us out of the wilderness of mediocrity.
One can only hope.
The community is too divided to even agree on one game. SWTOR was someones savior, the way STO, AOC, CoC, MineCraft, EvE. ect...
Archage, GW2, Tera, TSW will do the same.
To many of you have your own vision of what an MMO should be or how it should feel, even what it should or shouldn't include.
Comaf = Curt Schilling(baseball legend and 38 Studios founder)?
Seriously, 38 Studios has a deep talent pool and I am excited for their product, but I think it is a bit premature to declare them the messiah. Let's first see how Kingdoms of Amalur turns out in Feb.
That sounded extremely corporate of you. You are right about many of us having a vision. What is your vision of a viable, high quality mmorpg? Does the industry appease you or do you have issues with cut and paste pvp and the same gear grind year after year?
Did you reach end game in Dark Age of Camelot? Everquest 1? If you did, then you can join our argument. See things as we see it. You will note the lack of immersion in today's mmorpgs - period. We have multi player video games today - not mmoRPGs.
Surely you can see that if you grew up with the industry as we, the vocal minority have. Otherwise, if Age of Conan and Eve are your first mmorpgs, than I can understand your confusion.
I have no relation to Mr. Schilling. I am just (probably too vocal) a gamer from the old school days that really loves a good fiction read and seeks to see some similarity in epic quality in the mmoprg I purchase and spend hours on. Sadly, as I pointed out in my post, many of us are still waiting for an mmorpg to be made for a more adult group of gamers who apparently have very high expectations (i.e., we want a continuation of what was started when the mmorpg industry released the titles I mentioned).
And to sound less eloquent here, I swear if I see one more mmorpg with an elementary school playground pvp mechanic where I have to capture a flag or run a ball, tooth, flag, what have you from point A to B, I'm going to chop off my hands.
In all seriousness, as much as even the younger generation enjoys the three to six months of a particular game before something new comes out, even THEY must get bored of cut and paste instanced pvp mechanics.
Companies need to focus on immersion, and enabling players to make the world affected by their actions. This is why something as mundane as territorial control, even if it shifts hands non stop, is still a much more functional pvp event than pushing a "find the instanced pvp event" button on your screen and knocking off ten minutes of your life.
Secondly, and here's a perfect example of developers NOT learning from past mistakes, players need more factions. Sandbox is great, you have TONS of factions in theory because of the guild options being fairly unlimited. In a factional model, however, the 2 faction model is especially broken due to players tending to migrate to what they perceive as the stronger faction. In SW:ToR we already have this effect. Some servers are so Empire heavy that Repub players are non-stop migrating. You need a THIRD FACTION to break this up. Even if it is a small faction, it will still be a wild card. This means that when faction A is tearing up faction B...that faction C can come in and ruin the lockdown, or even possible statelmate. (stale is part of the word stalemate, I find that interesting ;p).
Developers need to take a fresh look at the genre, rethink the mechanics, and move forward. We have been a stagnant genre for years now. Let's try something new, or as in the case of my post, something old?
There is so much more potential to this industry, and yet, so few companies have the vision to see that. They have literally built a market around a very low expectation audience who more than likely knows very little of the background behind the genre and ficition/sci fi in general.
Pong vs Virtual Tennis
Pac-Man vs Sunday Lawn
See how that works?
Eq/Dark Age of Camelot's immersive quality, the very reason so many gamers have these intense memories that make them dream of the old gaming days, in no way can be compared to PONG lol.
What you have done is looked at the cosmetic. You see pong, which promoted part of the video game industry, and then it's final successor, Virtual Tennis, and said, "look, Pong was good in its time, but this is where it's at now..."
That is a different argument. I am pointing out beyond the purely cosmetic and looking at the depth of the product itself. Pong had nearly 0 depth due to programming constraints of the period. Everquest, Ultima, Dark Age, Asheron's Call, were epic in proportion when you compare them to the crap on the shelf we have now.
And if you want to go for programming potential, SW:ToR is slaughtered by games made in Korea that I can't even pronounce. So we are not talking about a simple format that birthed an industry, i.e, PONG, we are talkiing about massively multi player in depth gaming, and trying to see a solution to the failure of the industry to continue from that level of quality.
Comaf, that was very well said.
Unfortunately, as you know, progress in the genre moves at the speed of glaciers at best. The reason is that the big studios can't take huge risks with investors money(hundreds of millions) on a totally new and unproven model. The smaller companies who try totally new mechanics fail hard for a number of reasons. The primary reason for their failure is that the majority of gamers want their familiar flavor in every game, while still demanding totally new ideas(the obvious contradiction facing the industry). Games like Darkfall Online, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth, Xsyon and others all try something new but can't draw in enough customers to have enough money to polish the games, which would in turn draw more customers. If 38 Studios makes an MMO, you can be sure it will only slightly tweak the WoW/Rift/SWTOR formula or it will fall to the wayside like DF, MO, Xsyon, etc.
The reason is that the big studios can't take huge risks with investors money(hundreds of millions) on a totally new and unproven model.
----------------
Thank you Huskie. Is the three faction immersive mmorpg unproven though? Upgrade a game like Dark Age of Camelot to today's graphical standards and create a few fresh start servers and you'd have an overnight sucess. It may never be the 12,000,000 players of some mmorpgs like Perfect World or Wow, just like you'll never have a nice Italian restaurant reach the same peak of patrons as McDonald's, but you can have a very viable product.
Another proven market is the Everquest market. These gamers aren't so much into in depth pvp with siege warfare and territorial battles, along with zero mirrored classes and truly dedicated cultures to each race, but they love complex pve and questing. So there's another market that is as of now been proven to be successful - albeit 10 years ago, but I am sure still exists.
Just my 2 cents
/salute
This is exactlly what you are doing now!
Its really not hard to see how much more depth one has one over the other. If it's too much info for you to grasp at this time, take a break walk outside maybe when you are ready you will understand.
I'm sorry friend, I am not even sure why you are defending mediocrity in the genre. I am also not really following the few sentences of your argument, and I can already see that you are leaning on a line of commentary that leads to nowhere, ie., telling me this might be too much to grasp.
I think grad school years ago taught me to really look at an argument with some fair examples prepared for my side of the debate. A few comments and a final sputtering that says I can't grasp my own topic shows failure in the discussion. However, if you want to list some fine points and defend why you feel that your Pong evolves to Virtual Tennis is the same as a quality mmorpg like Dark Age of Camelot evolves to SW:ToR, be my guest
But put some effort into it man! 
Just think of a debate class and how that experience might help here. We want to progress this into something viable, maybe even get lucky if a developer is reading this. We don't want to go into cutting each other down because that just won't get us anywhere.
If you put something with some depth here to explain your position, then I'll reply. Until then, it won't be fair to the topic to make further comments on your behalf. /salute
Good post, thanks.
I oversimplify the industry as a comparison between the big box store and the local hardware store. I go to the big boxes all the time. There I can buy groceries, ammo, shoes, movies and legos all in one stop.
But I still go to the hardware store for specific needs. No, it doesn't sell movies, has a limited shoe selection and its prices on ammo are five-dollars higher, but I can have a conversation with the owner about specific tools and projects. I am paying for more than just an object.
There are lots of big-box MMOs out there. Seems that's the goal of most game companies. If they can't get filthy rich off their product, then it isn't worth doing. It's not enough just to stay in business and keep your family fed and sheltered. They need to afford three cars and home-entertainment systems that rival movie theatres. They need to live in homes that have extra rooms.
I could rant that we are all slaves to media-driven consumerism and put Lenin and Mao to shame.
My frustration with the gaming industry is that I can't find my product: no one is selling a pair of shoes that fits, neither the indies or the big boxes. I can't find a good, local hardware store. I am subscribing to a couple of themeparks, but they start to frustrate me in cycles. I tried a few sandboxes but got tired of having sand constantly kicked in my face.
I am better off logging out and going for a run with my dog.
TSW, LotRO, EQ2, SWTOR, GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO, BDO, SotA, B&S, ESO,
Video games are suppose to be fun and entertaining.
Next thing you know someone here will start Lobbying Congress to pass some kind of Barvarian Purity Law to try and keep MMORPG original and true.
There is a very odd perception issue with a lot of people (not the person I'm quoting).
One of the responses I see the most when people talk about the decline of MMO's is "easy mode" gaming. That perception is entirely wrong... Even if you accept it as true there is no reason for the quality of that product to be as bad as it is. Just because I make it easier for you to do something does not mean by default the game is crap. Its just an easier version.
If you look at a game like Ultima Online or EQ in comparison to a modern MMO you will see a lot less of everything. (in the "modern" MMO)
However, what will stand out the most is how ugly those games are. (big UO fan here by the way).
So that gives people the idea it was easier to make those games. It is actually much easier to design a "modern MMO". The tools we have available now either eclipse any previous tool or there was nothing comparable then.
That goes from the artist right down to the programmer.
To me the largest problem is you take that "easy mode gaming" phrase and turn it into "easy mode development".
Point being they remove as much as they think they can get away with and cut as many corners as they think they can... so they can ship something as soon as possible.
Just because you make encounters "easier" or make it so I can solo most things.. should not by default mean that all options for character advancement are largely taken away... that class choice is largely non existant or that all classes start to become the same. Some of the most complex games with great depth were designed for a single player audience.. there is absolutely no reason an MMO designed to be "easy mode" cannot have depth and complexity.
I just wish people would stop trying to blame other "customers" or gamers.. for things that should be put directly on developers.
*edit* To be honest I think the main reason for givng the least possible is current companies have a very dificult time fixing things that go wrong. So they need to keep it as simple as possible. When you think how complex older games were and they had no other examples to look at... they just seemed to have people capable of doing much more.
Perhaps a lot of it... comes down to the quality of talent available or people willing to work for what a development company pays. In the older days there may have been a much higher factor of people who just liked programming/art and wanted to make a game... where income wasn't high on their list of important things. /shrug
Volume over quality, not the first industry to do it.
one reason they could miss so badly is because you have x number of million players and each one have their opinion of the perfect game and how it should be.