Yeah...I wouldn't hold your breath if changing the staleness involves any sort of unforgiving game play mechanics.
You might take a look at Salem or Dominus. Salem especially seems to espouse a much less forgiving play style. Salem is very much a sandbox and Dominus looks to be a spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot, but in space with space bugs.
Nah, it doesn't necessarily have to be through a unforgiving gameplay mechanic. I just want something that feels very different from WoW and is still AAA. SWTOR was not different enough, so that's why I set my hopes for Guild Wars 2 and TSW.
Originally posted by InFaVilla Originally posted by lizardbones [quotes]
Yeah...I wouldn't hold your breath if changing the staleness involves any sort of unforgiving game play mechanics.
You might take a look at Salem or Dominus. Salem especially seems to espouse a much less forgiving play style. Salem is very much a sandbox and Dominus looks to be a spiritual successor to Dark Age of Camelot, but in space with space bugs.
Nah, it doesn't necessarily have to be through a unforgiving gameplay mechanic. I just want something that feels very different from WoW and is still AAA. SWTOR was not different enough, so that's why I set my hopes for Guild Wars 2 and TSW.
Both of those games are on my watch list. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So today's "It's cool to hate SWTOR thread" comes up with the fact that the game sucks because it doesn't have the death penalty of 12 year old EQ1 which the majority of MMO gamers don't want anyway? Oh please...
Even EQ1 doesn't have that penalty anymore, since your corpse ends up in Shadowrest instead of disappearing completely.
Will people stop over-reacting. This is not a hate thread. At no point have I said I hate this game, and I'm not going to play it. It's just something missing from the game that I wanted to discuss.
What do you call it when you stretch the truth to imply something that is untrue?
If you wanted to discuss mickey mouse death penalties in modern MMOs, id agree 100%. The moment you start trying to imply SWTOR somehow has LESS of a penalty than wow, even claiming WoW doesnt have the option for any class in the game to res you, something is wrong.
What? I'm not the one stretching the truth.
I have never said that you could not res in WoW, I said that in this game ANYONE can res. Not that nobody in WoW can.
I doubt many people here would agree with you that the death penalty in this game is equal to WoW, and WoW was easy. I've pointed out around 4 things that WoW had that this game does not, that you have either ignored or disagreed with (which is personal opinion, not fact).
The fact that you actually compared EvE as being less death punishment than SWTOR shows how deluded you are. That isn't even stretching the truth, it's running away from it.
Umm, no, what you are actually doing is ignore everyintg else that refutes your claims. At no point did I say that you implied NOBODY can res in WoW.
You said : "Plus anyone can revive in a group, so thats only an issue if you all die. Unlike WoW."
I then pointed out that in WoW too, anyone can revive in a group. Since Cata, Hunters can rez after combat, Rogues can rez after combat, warlocks can rez+Battle rez etc etc, ANYONE/CLASS in WoW can rez, just like SWTOR.
So, what do you call it one someone completly ignores mechanis to push an agenda?
Why do internet discussions always end up being bitchy arguments rather than actual discussions. If you don't agree, fine, I was merely asking for the general concensus. This has become hostile for absolutely no reason.
There is little point in continuing this back and forth MMOMainiac. We disagree, but there is no need to be so aggressive.
I can quite easily dispute every point you have just made, but where will it get us? Certainly off topic, that's for sure. You can pick up on minor mistakes I may have made, or jump on things you've missread, and I can retaliate.
SWTOR isn't easy. At all. It's the hardest MMO I've played since EQ1 and I died dozens of times on the way to 50, even at 50 I get pwnt by mobs in Ilum on daily quests and such. A 32,000 credit repair bill isn't very trivial either.
Why do internet discussions always end up being bitchy arguments rather than actual discussions. If you don't agree, fine, I was merely asking for the general concensus. This has become hostile for absolutely no reason.
Because you chose to walk an already well-trodden path my friend. The one where people make up stuff to hate on SWTOR for absolutely no good reason. Perhaps you weren't aware of just how many times a day this happens on these forums.
Objective constructive criticism is good, but very seldom seen in these threads.
Why do internet discussions always end up being bitchy arguments rather than actual discussions. If you don't agree, fine, I was merely asking for the general concensus. This has become hostile for absolutely no reason.
Because you chose to walk an already well-trodden path my friend. The one where people make up stuff to hate on SWTOR for absolutely no good reason. Perhaps you weren't aware of just how many times a day this happens on these forums.
Objective constructive criticism is good, but very seldom seen in these threads.
This is my first time on this forum. I couldn't see any topics related to this so I made it. I purposefully pointed out many times that I do not "hate" this game. Unlike many of the "Why I quit" threads that go on, I'm continuing to play.
It's not my fault you're all so defensive about a game.
Why do internet discussions always end up being bitchy arguments rather than actual discussions. If you don't agree, fine, I was merely asking for the general concensus. This has become hostile for absolutely no reason.
Because you chose to walk an already well-trodden path my friend. The one where people make up stuff to hate on SWTOR for absolutely no good reason. Perhaps you weren't aware of just how many times a day this happens on these forums.
Objective constructive criticism is good, but very seldom seen in these threads.
Objective constructive criticism is good, but objective criticism is sufficient regardless and sometimes subjective criticism is of interest as well.
How exactly is not having to wait a long time between attempts at something making the game easier? It's not like an enemy retains the damage you inflicted on it when you die and come back. Getting another shot at an enemy that killed you quickly doesn't make that fight any easier. You can't zerg it by yourself. I get the argument that a game where you lose something when you die makes you more cautious. But let's think about that. That means I will never ever EVER take on something that I'm not sure I can beat. I will never go into a fight without full hp. I will never get that invincible feeling of tearing through one pack after another. Every single area will take longer to get through. And this would only work if mobs were less clustered together. Otherwise, every time a patrol wandered by in mid battle, I would almost have to run away, instead of taking a chance and fighting it out. The risk would substantially outweigh the reward.
Playing like a coward is not particularly fun and I have no desire to do so.
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
Well, it is a video game. It's not a personality test. People who are brave and heroic in a video game are just as likely to wet their pants as video game cowards if a bunch of guys with guns shows up at the local bank while they're trying to get $20 out of the ATM.
Also, it makes more sense financially to use reward rather than punishment to encourage game play. It's statistically more effective and it's less likely to turn your audience away.
Show me a study that proves that it is always more effective to only use rewards rather than using a combination of both punishment and rewards.
The goal is to get more people to play and play more. If having a harsh death penalty encouraged players to play more, then you would see more harsh death penalties in more video games. I can accept the possibility that mmorpg designers are stupid. They don't cover a huge chunk of all the video game designers that exist. I don't find it likely that the majority of video game designers are stupid.
Forgive my ignorance if I've missed something in this conversation but who said the goal of MMORPGs is to get more people playing, and playing often?
It may be the goal of games like WOW (and we have plenty of evidence of failed systems within WOW to support this), but for the gamer, easy isn't allways the most rewarding gaming experience. The carrot without the stick is often times less effective than using both.
I'm not sugesting that the WOW developers are stuipid....infact they are very smart to exploit an untapped "Casual MMO" area of the MMORPG genere. But that doesn't neccessarily mean that Blizzard has created the best PvE or PvP game possible. It also doesn't mean that Blizzards goal to maximize the number of players playing their game has created the best community in their game either.
Again, I'll point to other MMOs with more severe death penalties.....as in real life, consequences make people critically think about what they are doing. A lack of consequences allows people / players to continue using, or acting in a way that may not be condusive to performing better or changing failed behaviors.
And again, I'll point to my experience playing UO, where the hard knocks created a knowledgeable and resourceful community that displayed a higher level of game intelligence and awareness than you can attribute to the average WOW playerbase.
Any person who has experience playing in WOW battlegrounds can attest to how moronic and mind numbing many of the players can be. It baffles the mind that something that seems so simple and common sense can be so hard to grasp by a staggering number of players.
Originally posted by RajCaj Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by InFaVilla
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by InFaVilla
Originally posted by Athcear How exactly is not having to wait a long time between attempts at something making the game easier? It's not like an enemy retains the damage you inflicted on it when you die and come back. Getting another shot at an enemy that killed you quickly doesn't make that fight any easier. You can't zerg it by yourself. I get the argument that a game where you lose something when you die makes you more cautious. But let's think about that. That means I will never ever EVER take on something that I'm not sure I can beat. I will never go into a fight without full hp. I will never get that invincible feeling of tearing through one pack after another. Every single area will take longer to get through. And this would only work if mobs were less clustered together. Otherwise, every time a patrol wandered by in mid battle, I would almost have to run away, instead of taking a chance and fighting it out. The risk would substantially outweigh the reward. Playing like a coward is not particularly fun and I have no desire to do so.
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
Well, it is a video game. It's not a personality test. People who are brave and heroic in a video game are just as likely to wet their pants as video game cowards if a bunch of guys with guns shows up at the local bank while they're trying to get $20 out of the ATM.
Also, it makes more sense financially to use reward rather than punishment to encourage game play. It's statistically more effective and it's less likely to turn your audience away.
Show me a study that proves that it is always more effective to only use rewards rather than using a combination of both punishment and rewards.
The goal is to get more people to play and play more. If having a harsh death penalty encouraged players to play more, then you would see more harsh death penalties in more video games. I can accept the possibility that mmorpg designers are stupid. They don't cover a huge chunk of all the video game designers that exist. I don't find it likely that the majority of video game designers are stupid.
Forgive my ignorance if I've missed something in this conversation but who said the goal of MMORPGs is to get more people playing, and playing often?
It may be the goal of games like WOW (and we have plenty of evidence of failed systems within WOW to support this), but for the gamer, easy isn't allways the most rewarding gaming experience. The carrot without the stick is often times less effective than using both.
I'm not sugesting that the WOW developers are stuipid....infact they are very smart to exploit an untapped "Casual MMO" area of the MMORPG genere. But that doesn't neccessarily mean that Blizzard has created the best PvE or PvP game possible. It also doesn't mean that Blizzards goal to maximize the number of players playing their game has created the best community in their game either.
Again, I'll point to other MMOs with more severe death penalties.....as in real life, consequences make people critically think about what they are doing. A lack of consequences allows people / players to continue using, or acting in a way that may not be condusive to performing better or changing failed behaviors.
And again, I'll point to my experience playing UO, where the hard knocks created a knowledgeable and resourceful community that displayed a higher level of game intelligence and awareness than you can attribute to the average WOW playerbase.
Any person who has experience playing in WOW battlegrounds can attest to how moronic and mind numbing many of the players can be. It baffles the mind that something that seems so simple and common sense can be so hard to grasp by a staggering number of players.
One game used the stick, the other game didn't.
There are more skilled and brilliant players playing WoW right now than are playing (or played) Ultima Online. The reason is not that many people played Ultima Online. The only way to get the type of player base you're referencing is to get rid of the players you don't like. You're not going to create good players by instituting harsher penalties. If you did that in WoW, you wouldn't make better players, you'd make fewer players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
ill just post here real quick that i agree with you even though i forsee axehilt posting here soon saying something about rose colored glasses and how those were worthless timesinks
What else were they? How can people not see them for what they were, they kept you playing (read paying) longer.
It's no secret that most MMO players (fans) will finish out the leveling game, been that way since the start. The longer you make that, and the more you set back those trying to achieve and the more you give them to "achieve", the longer they will play.
They do the same thing today, except instead of grinding numbers, you're grinding for items ( gear) (read: MMO companies learned a thing or two from diablo).
I disagree...
Every opponent of harsher death penalties will always argue that they do nothing but make you spend more time, and don't really change gameplay at all. This is just so wrong.
I encourage all of you guys to play Dark Souls, Minecraft, or Terraria.
All of those games have severe death penalties and it DRASTICALLY changes the way the game is played. In Minecraft, if you die you drop all your stuff on your person and may very well lose it. Believe me, this makes you EXTRA CAUTIOUS when you are digging down to make sure you don't fall in lava, or digging up to make sure you don't flood your tunnel.
And in Dark Souls, if you die you lose all of your current "souls" (spendable exp) and have to start back at a checkpoint that can be far away. Believe me...it makes you think critically about each fight you engage. Instead of just running in blindly and hoping to win, you will always tactically assess the situation beforehand and try to figure out the best way to handle it. You're always EXTREMELY cautious when traveling to a new area because you never know what kind of nasty surprises await you.
The death penalty in these games define the play experience. Without it, I wouldn't care about digging into lava in Minecraft...I would just dig where I want, and if I die? Who cares. And in Dark Souls, I would just run through the levels repeatedly bashing my head against each fight until I win. The element of caution, danger, and planning would be gone from each of these games.
I'm not saying that harsher death penalties are always the best thing, but they DO change the play experience, and they CAN add something meaningful to a game.
The "death penalties just make you grind more" argument only works if you assume that the player has absolutely no control over whether or not they die. Because, if this were true, then death would be completely random and essentially just an exp-sink. This is never the case in video games.
Only part I dont agree with is the death is never random part. When you get PvP ganked, in some games, it is usually out of your control and random. Unless you consider being in a PvP enabled area to be something that falls under the players control about dying or not.
Yeah I agree about the PvP ganking. But really, if you can get ganked frequently completely at random and you can do absolutely nothing to stop it...then that's probably bad design harsh death penalty or no .
Even in UO, you could do things to prevent ganking like putting your reagents in a box (unstealable), having magic reflect up at all times, traveling with a group, or hunting in more highly populated areas.
ill just post here real quick that i agree with you even though i forsee axehilt posting here soon saying something about rose colored glasses and how those were worthless timesinks
What else were they? How can people not see them for what they were, they kept you playing (read paying) longer.
It's no secret that most MMO players (fans) will finish out the leveling game, been that way since the start. The longer you make that, and the more you set back those trying to achieve and the more you give them to "achieve", the longer they will play.
They do the same thing today, except instead of grinding numbers, you're grinding for items ( gear) (read: MMO companies learned a thing or two from diablo).
I disagree...
Every opponent of harsher death penalties will always argue that they do nothing but make you spend more time, and don't really change gameplay at all. This is just so wrong.
... snip ...
I usually argue that death penalties need to match the game that they are currently active in. The death penalty from Minecraft would not make sense in WoW, and the death penalty in WoW would not make sense in Minecraft. This discussion didn't really seem to go in that direction.
But I'm not really an opponent of harsh death penalties...just an opponent of applying to them to every single new game that comes out that doesn't have one.
Yes, I agree. The death penalty should make sense in the context of the game.
Obviously, losing all your stuff when you die would not work in WoW . But exp loss would...
Why do internet discussions always end up being bitchy arguments rather than actual discussions. If you don't agree, fine, I was merely asking for the general concensus. This has become hostile for absolutely no reason.
Because you chose to walk an already well-trodden path my friend. The one where people make up stuff to hate on SWTOR for absolutely no good reason. Perhaps you weren't aware of just how many times a day this happens on these forums.
Objective constructive criticism is good, but very seldom seen in these threads.
This is my first time on this forum. I couldn't see any topics related to this so I made it. I purposefully pointed out many times that I do not "hate" this game. Unlike many of the "Why I quit" threads that go on, I'm continuing to play.
It's not my fault you're all so defensive about a game.
sorry you're finding out via your first posts what a cesspool these forums are. 8)
but to get on topic, i would be considered old school in alot of ways, but i don't like death penalties in any form. even a forced 10 seconds of waiting before i can respawn.
i got alot of real life things on my plate. as much as i love immersion, real life and my precious real life time trumps it. therefore i don't need any added adrenaline that extra death penalties can give you. thats the only positive aspect i see in extra death penalties. making you're heart beat faster and making danger feel more real. i don't need that. my heart pumps fast enough when i'm dying. of course restricting myself to games based on real life skill rather than mindless whack-a-mole helps in that area.
death in and of itself is enough punishment. not only did i fail, but when i respawn i am being removed from the location that i chose to be in. that's PLENTY of punishment for me. i don't need to lose anymore than it will take to go back to where i want to be, and to retry whatever i was doing, hopefully with more success.
We all knew this wasn't going to be EVE or Darkfall in regards to death penalties. How about you guys support the games that support your play style instead of trying to turn every game that doesn't support your playstyle into something it isn't? Just a thought.
Yes, I agree. The death penalty should make sense in the context of the game.
Obviously, losing all your stuff when you die would not work in WoW . But exp loss would...
XP loss on the other hand just add another grind to the game.
I agree that there should be some death penalty to keep you on the edge but XP loss does not make things really harder or more fun.
Quizz had an idea in an earlier thread that you should get a time out when you die, I like that better. Of course he wanted 24 hours and that isn´t fun, but 5 minutes to respawn would be perfect, it is enough to make you feel that dying is bad without adding any grind to it. Or 10 minutes for that matter, it is really something you would need to try out to find the perfect time.
Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by PKJackCrow ill just post here real quick that i agree with you even though i forsee axehilt posting here soon saying something about rose colored glasses and how those were worthless timesinks
What else were they? How can people not see them for what they were, they kept you playing (read paying) longer. It's no secret that most MMO players (fans) will finish out the leveling game, been that way since the start. The longer you make that, and the more you set back those trying to achieve and the more you give them to "achieve", the longer they will play. They do the same thing today, except instead of grinding numbers, you're grinding for items ( gear) (read: MMO companies learned a thing or two from diablo).
I disagree... Every opponent of harsher death penalties will always argue that they do nothing but make you spend more time, and don't really change gameplay at all. This is just so wrong. ... snip ...
I usually argue that death penalties need to match the game that they are currently active in. The death penalty from Minecraft would not make sense in WoW, and the death penalty in WoW would not make sense in Minecraft. This discussion didn't really seem to go in that direction.
But I'm not really an opponent of harsh death penalties...just an opponent of applying to them to every single new game that comes out that doesn't have one.
Yes, I agree. The death penalty should make sense in the context of the game. Obviously, losing all your stuff when you die would not work in WoW . But exp loss would...
XP loss would be a functional death penalty. If you did it now though, you'd just get rid of a lot more players than are going to leave anyway. If they had implemented it when the game first launched...I dunno. Not sure if it would change much, if anything, except max level characters questing in max level zones to get back into raids. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Balance pvp around 1v1 then i say give me a harsh death penalty, so untill the stop coming out with MMO's that's balanced around Group pvp balance I say no death penalty at all.
Originally posted by Loke666 Originally posted by Creslin321 Yes, I agree. The death penalty should make sense in the context of the game. Obviously, losing all your stuff when you die would not work in WoW . But exp loss would...
XP loss on the other hand just add another grind to the game. I agree that there should be some death penalty to keep you on the edge but XP loss does not make things really harder or more fun. Quizz had an idea in an earlier thread that you should get a time out when you die, I like that better. Of course he wanted 24 hours and that isn´t fun, but 5 minutes to respawn would be perfect, it is enough to make you feel that dying is bad without adding any grind to it. Or 10 minutes for that matter, it is really something you would need to try out to find the perfect time.
I know it's possible to get up to a 2 minute respawn timer in SWToR. *whistles*
It was an experiment.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It was called motivation to make friends. need to travel get with a druid or wizard to get somewhere, build a good list of tanks healers dps and pullers (i was an enchanter and a damn good one) and group came easy and fast and i got to run around seeing lots of places trading services to get where i need to do things i wanted. or as others might call it being part of the community
Funny how in modern MMOs, I make friends with those I find interesting, not because the game forces me too. It's sad that having a game force friendship is the only way some people can make friends.
I played EQ1. Corpse runs were pretty much stupid. Period. It didn't make the game hard. It made the game tedious.
You want this game to be more difficult? There are a number of ways to accomplish that on your own, or does everyone need the game to hand-hold them? Here's just one idea: hand craft all your gear. When you die, delete your equipment and start over.
How exactly is not having to wait a long time between attempts at something making the game easier? It's not like an enemy retains the damage you inflicted on it when you die and come back. Getting another shot at an enemy that killed you quickly doesn't make that fight any easier. You can't zerg it by yourself. I get the argument that a game where you lose something when you die makes you more cautious. But let's think about that. That means I will never ever EVER take on something that I'm not sure I can beat. I will never go into a fight without full hp. I will never get that invincible feeling of tearing through one pack after another. Every single area will take longer to get through. And this would only work if mobs were less clustered together. Otherwise, every time a patrol wandered by in mid battle, I would almost have to run away, instead of taking a chance and fighting it out. The risk would substantially outweigh the reward.
Playing like a coward is not particularly fun and I have no desire to do so.
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
Well, it is a video game. It's not a personality test. People who are brave and heroic in a video game are just as likely to wet their pants as video game cowards if a bunch of guys with guns shows up at the local bank while they're trying to get $20 out of the ATM.
Also, it makes more sense financially to use reward rather than punishment to encourage game play. It's statistically more effective and it's less likely to turn your audience away.
Show me a study that proves that it is always more effective to only use rewards rather than using a combination of both punishment and rewards.
The goal is to get more people to play and play more. If having a harsh death penalty encouraged players to play more, then you would see more harsh death penalties in more video games. I can accept the possibility that mmorpg designers are stupid. They don't cover a huge chunk of all the video game designers that exist. I don't find it likely that the majority of video game designers are stupid.
Forgive my ignorance if I've missed something in this conversation but who said the goal of MMORPGs is to get more people playing, and playing often?
It may be the goal of games like WOW (and we have plenty of evidence of failed systems within WOW to support this), but for the gamer, easy isn't allways the most rewarding gaming experience. The carrot without the stick is often times less effective than using both.
I'm not sugesting that the WOW developers are stuipid....infact they are very smart to exploit an untapped "Casual MMO" area of the MMORPG genere. But that doesn't neccessarily mean that Blizzard has created the best PvE or PvP game possible. It also doesn't mean that Blizzards goal to maximize the number of players playing their game has created the best community in their game either.
Again, I'll point to other MMOs with more severe death penalties.....as in real life, consequences make people critically think about what they are doing. A lack of consequences allows people / players to continue using, or acting in a way that may not be condusive to performing better or changing failed behaviors.
And again, I'll point to my experience playing UO, where the hard knocks created a knowledgeable and resourceful community that displayed a higher level of game intelligence and awareness than you can attribute to the average WOW playerbase.
Any person who has experience playing in WOW battlegrounds can attest to how moronic and mind numbing many of the players can be. It baffles the mind that something that seems so simple and common sense can be so hard to grasp by a staggering number of players.
One game used the stick, the other game didn't.
There are more skilled and brilliant players playing WoW right now than are playing (or played) Ultima Online. The reason is not that many people played Ultima Online. The only way to get the type of player base you're referencing is to get rid of the players you don't like. You're not going to create good players by instituting harsher penalties. If you did that in WoW, you wouldn't make better players, you'd make fewer players.
IMO, the PvP system (where players really displayed their skill) in UO required way more twitch & planning than you see in WOW....mostly due to the fact that UO's combat system WASN'T (can't say that now) based on gear, but well timed intruptions, and anticipating the opponets moves..while the PvP system in WOW is largely a Paper Rock Scissors Match that heavily favors who has the best gear...but I digress
Secondly, the WOW players that do display a high level of competency of their characters abilities (and other classes ablities) ARE those folks Raiding & running Arenas.....which make up a LARGE minority of WOW players.
The General populous of WOW, that queue up for 5 man dungeon crawls and single queue for Battle Grounds, show their ignorance and/or lack of interest on a regular basis.
I've run more 5 man dungeons & BGs I can begin to count.....and time after time there are always the people that will stand in the fire, Damage Dealer pulling things they aren't supposed to pull and people mindlessly running into a proverbial brick wall of opponets in Battle Grounds.
If players got a ruler to the knuckles Catholic School Style for playing poorly, they'd probably have to change their play style (for example....IMPROVE IT) or yes.....they would quit. If a player doesn't like dieing, but refuses to make changes to the way they play so they wouldn't die so much (I think that's called "getting better")......yes, I'd imagine a person playing a game doesn't enjoy dieing and would quit if they felt that was their only option. And quite frankly, why would you want to play with or against another player that would quit a game before taking steps to improve their skills?
This just proves the point that Blizzard doing things like drasticly reducing punative measures in the game that are used to shape player behavior did so to accomodate the masses, and their subscriptions over a smart and resourceful playerbase.
I don't know about you all, but my experiences in MMORPGs have been MUCH better playing with (and against) people that play well and not poorly.
The "new" games have been dumbed down. Sorry but thats the simple truth. Instant gratification is what ALOT of people want, just like zapping the TV.
I remember in AO: Raids took a long time, mercs/SMUGs. you got to socialize while waiting for spawns could take hours.Sometime you where bored shitless, but then you invited fun stuff to do while waiting. You know DOING STUFF with your guild. Non of this instateleport into dungeons or instateleport into so called "PVP". Tarasque awsome encounter: Shared dungeon with clan 18 hour respawn, crazy fighting over loot. Camping NPC's for rare drops. Roaming about trying to pick a fight with other groups. YES it took ages, yes loot was sparse (in some ways) BUT when you got a piece of nice loot you were oh so happy.
You had fun in groups and fun with the guild in the towerwars (yesyes instapopp 1 shots and sometimes it lagged like hell) BUT you forgave all that because you actually had to think and you had fun while doing it. Stacking implants to put on that shining armor waaaay above your level, running around for buffs and finding out that you had miscalculated and had to do it all over, it was great! Most games these days its just warp here, warp there: SWTOR even worse, because people are now watching theire STORY on top. Whatever happened to making you OWN story? You be a badass pvp'er, wicked raid leader , the servers best tank whatever.
NOW it dont mean shit, you just sit there waiting to be entertained. I MISS gameplay like this, it TOOK AGES to level, and it really didnt matter much.
Only thing i find myself logging into regularely these days is EVE, it still has that feeling: Your never done, you make your own fortune or go down trying like a champ..
yeye rantrant "the good old times", but come on: i have kids these days and i would LOVE to play a real sandbox again, or at least something looking like a sandbox, even if i didnt reach max level in 5 days played (like alot of players in this POS of a game Swtor) i would play it, and have fun with my mates and guildies.
My first MMORPG was Everquest 1. The death penalty in EQ was very harsh. Corpse runs, lost equipment, massive xp hit. Then WoW turned up and toned it down a lot, simple short corpse runs, slight money hit. I personally prefered EQs style since it made the game incredibly tense, with real strategy required. I can see why some people thought it was too hard however, and WoW was certainly more accessible because of this.
However, there is no death penalty at all in SWTOR (waiting 10 seconds isn't a punishment). This makes the game so easy, I may aswell just be clicking for 50 hours or so. I only die when I forget to heal after 50 or so enemies, and then I just get to respawn on the spot, stealthed, no xp hit, no stat damage, nothing. I play games for the challenge, but I find very little challenge in SWTOR, which is a shame because it has lots of great features and ideas.
I personally feel that devs making games easier to appeal to more people is ruining the games, at least for me.
Am I alone in this?
So punish yourself when you die. Eat a can of dog food or trash one item your character is wearing. Don't sit around waiting for the devs to do everything for you; get creative.
That would work to a certain extent if it was a single player game. SWTOR is though a co-op game, so unless you make your allies eat the can too, it isn't as effective. Also it significantely breaks immersion, which is bad.
This is when the backpeddling begins. Ok, you want a harsh death penalty but not when team members cause it. Later, you excuses like "game bugs" and the every so frequent "network problems" which caused the death. Funny how those network connections happen only at critical times.
If there were potions of truthfullness, I'd bet when questioned the real truth would come out. Harsh death penalties are not about making the game exciting for you (as normally claimed but excused away as YOU DID) but are really about a psych-sadisitic desire to inflict those harsh pentaties on others.
I wish people would have the guts to just come out and say it instead of trying to run around the truth.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
My first MMORPG was Everquest 1. The death penalty in EQ was very harsh. Corpse runs, lost equipment, massive xp hit. Then WoW turned up and toned it down a lot, simple short corpse runs, slight money hit. I personally prefered EQs style since it made the game incredibly tense, with real strategy required. I can see why some people thought it was too hard however, and WoW was certainly more accessible because of this.
However, there is no death penalty at all in SWTOR (waiting 10 seconds isn't a punishment). This makes the game so easy, I may aswell just be clicking for 50 hours or so. I only die when I forget to heal after 50 or so enemies, and then I just get to respawn on the spot, stealthed, no xp hit, no stat damage, nothing. I play games for the challenge, but I find very little challenge in SWTOR, which is a shame because it has lots of great features and ideas.
I personally feel that devs making games easier to appeal to more people is ruining the games, at least for me.
Am I alone in this?
So punish yourself when you die. Eat a can of dog food or trash one item your character is wearing. Don't sit around waiting for the devs to do everything for you; get creative.
That would work to a certain extent if it was a single player game. SWTOR is though a co-op game, so unless you make your allies eat the can too, it isn't as effective. Also it significantely breaks immersion, which is bad.
This is when the backpeddling begins. Ok, you want a harsh death penalty but not when team members cause it. Later, you excuses like "game bugs" and the every so frequent "network problems" which caused the death. Funny how those network connections happen only at critical times.
If there were potions of truthfullness, I'd bet when questioned the real truth would come out. Harsh death penalties are not about making the game exciting for you (as normally claimed but excused away as YOU DID) but are really about a psych-sadisitic desire to inflict those harsh pentaties on others.
I wish people would have the guts to just come out and say it instead of trying to run around the truth.
The point is that I want the harsh penalties to affect the whole group so that we apply a modified strategy. If we only impose out-of-game penalty on one member, the rest of the group will not adjust their strategy to that. It is not like you can say "Hey, guys, if I die I have to eat a can of dog food, so keep that in mind, okay?".
The same reasoning can be used in world PvP. It defeats the meaning of wanting to create a shift of paradigm, if you just apply the out-of-game penalties to a selected few of all involved.
Comments
Nah, it doesn't necessarily have to be through a unforgiving gameplay mechanic. I just want something that feels very different from WoW and is still AAA. SWTOR was not different enough, so that's why I set my hopes for Guild Wars 2 and TSW.
Nah, it doesn't necessarily have to be through a unforgiving gameplay mechanic. I just want something that feels very different from WoW and is still AAA. SWTOR was not different enough, so that's why I set my hopes for Guild Wars 2 and TSW.
Both of those games are on my watch list. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Umm, no, what you are actually doing is ignore everyintg else that refutes your claims. At no point did I say that you implied NOBODY can res in WoW.
You said : "Plus anyone can revive in a group, so thats only an issue if you all die. Unlike WoW."
I then pointed out that in WoW too, anyone can revive in a group. Since Cata, Hunters can rez after combat, Rogues can rez after combat, warlocks can rez+Battle rez etc etc, ANYONE/CLASS in WoW can rez, just like SWTOR.
So, what do you call it one someone completly ignores mechanis to push an agenda?
Why do internet discussions always end up being bitchy arguments rather than actual discussions. If you don't agree, fine, I was merely asking for the general concensus. This has become hostile for absolutely no reason.
There is little point in continuing this back and forth MMOMainiac. We disagree, but there is no need to be so aggressive.
I can quite easily dispute every point you have just made, but where will it get us? Certainly off topic, that's for sure. You can pick up on minor mistakes I may have made, or jump on things you've missread, and I can retaliate.
Internet discussions = fail.
SWTOR isn't easy. At all. It's the hardest MMO I've played since EQ1 and I died dozens of times on the way to 50, even at 50 I get pwnt by mobs in Ilum on daily quests and such. A 32,000 credit repair bill isn't very trivial either.
Because you chose to walk an already well-trodden path my friend. The one where people make up stuff to hate on SWTOR for absolutely no good reason. Perhaps you weren't aware of just how many times a day this happens on these forums.
Objective constructive criticism is good, but very seldom seen in these threads.
This is my first time on this forum. I couldn't see any topics related to this so I made it. I purposefully pointed out many times that I do not "hate" this game. Unlike many of the "Why I quit" threads that go on, I'm continuing to play.
It's not my fault you're all so defensive about a game.
Objective constructive criticism is good, but objective criticism is sufficient regardless and sometimes subjective criticism is of interest as well.
Forgive my ignorance if I've missed something in this conversation but who said the goal of MMORPGs is to get more people playing, and playing often?
It may be the goal of games like WOW (and we have plenty of evidence of failed systems within WOW to support this), but for the gamer, easy isn't allways the most rewarding gaming experience. The carrot without the stick is often times less effective than using both.
I'm not sugesting that the WOW developers are stuipid....infact they are very smart to exploit an untapped "Casual MMO" area of the MMORPG genere. But that doesn't neccessarily mean that Blizzard has created the best PvE or PvP game possible. It also doesn't mean that Blizzards goal to maximize the number of players playing their game has created the best community in their game either.
Again, I'll point to other MMOs with more severe death penalties.....as in real life, consequences make people critically think about what they are doing. A lack of consequences allows people / players to continue using, or acting in a way that may not be condusive to performing better or changing failed behaviors.
And again, I'll point to my experience playing UO, where the hard knocks created a knowledgeable and resourceful community that displayed a higher level of game intelligence and awareness than you can attribute to the average WOW playerbase.
Any person who has experience playing in WOW battlegrounds can attest to how moronic and mind numbing many of the players can be. It baffles the mind that something that seems so simple and common sense can be so hard to grasp by a staggering number of players.
One game used the stick, the other game didn't.
You would only play like a coward, if you actually are one. Those who are not cowards, would not play as such even in games with higher death penalties. In the case with SWTOR, we cannot seperate the cowards from the rest due to "friendly" mechanics. You ought to accept your inner nature, but SWTOR doesn't allow you to do that.
Well, it is a video game. It's not a personality test. People who are brave and heroic in a video game are just as likely to wet their pants as video game cowards if a bunch of guys with guns shows up at the local bank while they're trying to get $20 out of the ATM.
Also, it makes more sense financially to use reward rather than punishment to encourage game play. It's statistically more effective and it's less likely to turn your audience away.
Show me a study that proves that it is always more effective to only use rewards rather than using a combination of both punishment and rewards.
The goal is to get more people to play and play more. If having a harsh death penalty encouraged players to play more, then you would see more harsh death penalties in more video games. I can accept the possibility that mmorpg designers are stupid. They don't cover a huge chunk of all the video game designers that exist. I don't find it likely that the majority of video game designers are stupid.
Forgive my ignorance if I've missed something in this conversation but who said the goal of MMORPGs is to get more people playing, and playing often?
It may be the goal of games like WOW (and we have plenty of evidence of failed systems within WOW to support this), but for the gamer, easy isn't allways the most rewarding gaming experience. The carrot without the stick is often times less effective than using both.
I'm not sugesting that the WOW developers are stuipid....infact they are very smart to exploit an untapped "Casual MMO" area of the MMORPG genere. But that doesn't neccessarily mean that Blizzard has created the best PvE or PvP game possible. It also doesn't mean that Blizzards goal to maximize the number of players playing their game has created the best community in their game either.
Again, I'll point to other MMOs with more severe death penalties.....as in real life, consequences make people critically think about what they are doing. A lack of consequences allows people / players to continue using, or acting in a way that may not be condusive to performing better or changing failed behaviors.
And again, I'll point to my experience playing UO, where the hard knocks created a knowledgeable and resourceful community that displayed a higher level of game intelligence and awareness than you can attribute to the average WOW playerbase.
Any person who has experience playing in WOW battlegrounds can attest to how moronic and mind numbing many of the players can be. It baffles the mind that something that seems so simple and common sense can be so hard to grasp by a staggering number of players.
One game used the stick, the other game didn't.
There are more skilled and brilliant players playing WoW right now than are playing (or played) Ultima Online. The reason is not that many people played Ultima Online. The only way to get the type of player base you're referencing is to get rid of the players you don't like. You're not going to create good players by instituting harsher penalties. If you did that in WoW, you wouldn't make better players, you'd make fewer players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yeah I agree about the PvP ganking. But really, if you can get ganked frequently completely at random and you can do absolutely nothing to stop it...then that's probably bad design harsh death penalty or no
.
Even in UO, you could do things to prevent ganking like putting your reagents in a box (unstealable), having magic reflect up at all times, traveling with a group, or hunting in more highly populated areas.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Yes, I agree. The death penalty should make sense in the context of the game.
Obviously, losing all your stuff when you die would not work in WoW
. But exp loss would...
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Death penalties always pissed me off. Dying sucks enough for me. I don't need any artificial penalty to kick me when I'm down.
Most mmos have moved away from death penalties and I'm glad for it.
sorry you're finding out via your first posts what a cesspool these forums are. 8)
but to get on topic, i would be considered old school in alot of ways, but i don't like death penalties in any form. even a forced 10 seconds of waiting before i can respawn.
i got alot of real life things on my plate. as much as i love immersion, real life and my precious real life time trumps it. therefore i don't need any added adrenaline that extra death penalties can give you. thats the only positive aspect i see in extra death penalties. making you're heart beat faster and making danger feel more real. i don't need that. my heart pumps fast enough when i'm dying. of course restricting myself to games based on real life skill rather than mindless whack-a-mole helps in that area.
death in and of itself is enough punishment. not only did i fail, but when i respawn i am being removed from the location that i chose to be in. that's PLENTY of punishment for me. i don't need to lose anymore than it will take to go back to where i want to be, and to retry whatever i was doing, hopefully with more success.
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Corpus Callosum
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We all knew this wasn't going to be EVE or Darkfall in regards to death penalties. How about you guys support the games that support your play style instead of trying to turn every game that doesn't support your playstyle into something it isn't? Just a thought.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
XP loss on the other hand just add another grind to the game.
I agree that there should be some death penalty to keep you on the edge but XP loss does not make things really harder or more fun.
Quizz had an idea in an earlier thread that you should get a time out when you die, I like that better. Of course he wanted 24 hours and that isn´t fun, but 5 minutes to respawn would be perfect, it is enough to make you feel that dying is bad without adding any grind to it. Or 10 minutes for that matter, it is really something you would need to try out to find the perfect time.
What happened when you died in KOTOR?
You reloaded your game.
What happens when you die in SW:TOR?
You reload your game either at your last place (last save) or at a medical checkpoint (a nearby auto-save).
Its just another example of how this is a Single Player game, masked in a thin layer of multiplayer.
What else were they? How can people not see them for what they were, they kept you playing (read paying) longer.
It's no secret that most MMO players (fans) will finish out the leveling game, been that way since the start. The longer you make that, and the more you set back those trying to achieve and the more you give them to "achieve", the longer they will play.
They do the same thing today, except instead of grinding numbers, you're grinding for items ( gear) (read: MMO companies learned a thing or two from diablo).
I disagree...
Every opponent of harsher death penalties will always argue that they do nothing but make you spend more time, and don't really change gameplay at all. This is just so wrong.
... snip ...
I usually argue that death penalties need to match the game that they are currently active in. The death penalty from Minecraft would not make sense in WoW, and the death penalty in WoW would not make sense in Minecraft. This discussion didn't really seem to go in that direction.
But I'm not really an opponent of harsh death penalties...just an opponent of applying to them to every single new game that comes out that doesn't have one.
Yes, I agree. The death penalty should make sense in the context of the game.
Obviously, losing all your stuff when you die would not work in WoW
XP loss would be a functional death penalty. If you did it now though, you'd just get rid of a lot more players than are going to leave anyway. If they had implemented it when the game first launched...I dunno. Not sure if it would change much, if anything, except max level characters questing in max level zones to get back into raids. :-)
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Balance pvp around 1v1 then i say give me a harsh death penalty, so untill the stop coming out with MMO's that's balanced around Group pvp balance I say no death penalty at all.
I agree that there should be some death penalty to keep you on the edge but XP loss does not make things really harder or more fun.
Quizz had an idea in an earlier thread that you should get a time out when you die, I like that better. Of course he wanted 24 hours and that isn´t fun, but 5 minutes to respawn would be perfect, it is enough to make you feel that dying is bad without adding any grind to it. Or 10 minutes for that matter, it is really something you would need to try out to find the perfect time.
I know it's possible to get up to a 2 minute respawn timer in SWToR. *whistles*
It was an experiment.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Funny how in modern MMOs, I make friends with those I find interesting, not because the game forces me too. It's sad that having a game force friendship is the only way some people can make friends.
I played EQ1. Corpse runs were pretty much stupid. Period. It didn't make the game hard. It made the game tedious.
You want this game to be more difficult? There are a number of ways to accomplish that on your own, or does everyone need the game to hand-hold them? Here's just one idea: hand craft all your gear. When you die, delete your equipment and start over.
IMO, the PvP system (where players really displayed their skill) in UO required way more twitch & planning than you see in WOW....mostly due to the fact that UO's combat system WASN'T (can't say that now) based on gear, but well timed intruptions, and anticipating the opponets moves..while the PvP system in WOW is largely a Paper Rock Scissors Match that heavily favors who has the best gear...but I digress
Secondly, the WOW players that do display a high level of competency of their characters abilities (and other classes ablities) ARE those folks Raiding & running Arenas.....which make up a LARGE minority of WOW players.
The General populous of WOW, that queue up for 5 man dungeon crawls and single queue for Battle Grounds, show their ignorance and/or lack of interest on a regular basis.
I've run more 5 man dungeons & BGs I can begin to count.....and time after time there are always the people that will stand in the fire, Damage Dealer pulling things they aren't supposed to pull and people mindlessly running into a proverbial brick wall of opponets in Battle Grounds.
If players got a ruler to the knuckles Catholic School Style for playing poorly, they'd probably have to change their play style (for example....IMPROVE IT) or yes.....they would quit. If a player doesn't like dieing, but refuses to make changes to the way they play so they wouldn't die so much (I think that's called "getting better")......yes, I'd imagine a person playing a game doesn't enjoy dieing and would quit if they felt that was their only option. And quite frankly, why would you want to play with or against another player that would quit a game before taking steps to improve their skills?
This just proves the point that Blizzard doing things like drasticly reducing punative measures in the game that are used to shape player behavior did so to accomodate the masses, and their subscriptions over a smart and resourceful playerbase.
I don't know about you all, but my experiences in MMORPGs have been MUCH better playing with (and against) people that play well and not poorly.
The "new" games have been dumbed down. Sorry but thats the simple truth. Instant gratification is what ALOT of people want, just like zapping the TV.
I remember in AO: Raids took a long time, mercs/SMUGs. you got to socialize while waiting for spawns could take hours.Sometime you where bored shitless, but then you invited fun stuff to do while waiting. You know DOING STUFF with your guild. Non of this instateleport into dungeons or instateleport into so called "PVP". Tarasque awsome encounter: Shared dungeon with clan 18 hour respawn, crazy fighting over loot. Camping NPC's for rare drops. Roaming about trying to pick a fight with other groups. YES it took ages, yes loot was sparse (in some ways) BUT when you got a piece of nice loot you were oh so happy.
You had fun in groups and fun with the guild in the towerwars (yesyes instapopp 1 shots and sometimes it lagged like hell) BUT you forgave all that because you actually had to think and you had fun while doing it. Stacking implants to put on that shining armor waaaay above your level, running around for buffs and finding out that you had miscalculated and had to do it all over, it was great! Most games these days its just warp here, warp there: SWTOR even worse, because people are now watching theire STORY on top. Whatever happened to making you OWN story? You be a badass pvp'er, wicked raid leader , the servers best tank whatever.
NOW it dont mean shit, you just sit there waiting to be entertained. I MISS gameplay like this, it TOOK AGES to level, and it really didnt matter much.
Only thing i find myself logging into regularely these days is EVE, it still has that feeling: Your never done, you make your own fortune or go down trying like a champ..
yeye rantrant "the good old times", but come on: i have kids these days and i would LOVE to play a real sandbox again, or at least something looking like a sandbox, even if i didnt reach max level in 5 days played (like alot of players in this POS of a game Swtor) i would play it, and have fun with my mates and guildies.
This is when the backpeddling begins. Ok, you want a harsh death penalty but not when team members cause it. Later, you excuses like "game bugs" and the every so frequent "network problems" which caused the death. Funny how those network connections happen only at critical times.
If there were potions of truthfullness, I'd bet when questioned the real truth would come out. Harsh death penalties are not about making the game exciting for you (as normally claimed but excused away as YOU DID) but are really about a psych-sadisitic desire to inflict those harsh pentaties on others.
I wish people would have the guts to just come out and say it instead of trying to run around the truth.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The point is that I want the harsh penalties to affect the whole group so that we apply a modified strategy. If we only impose out-of-game penalty on one member, the rest of the group will not adjust their strategy to that. It is not like you can say "Hey, guys, if I die I have to eat a can of dog food, so keep that in mind, okay?".
The same reasoning can be used in world PvP. It defeats the meaning of wanting to create a shift of paradigm, if you just apply the out-of-game penalties to a selected few of all involved.