It's not that the big bosses cannot move around the zone. It's more like during the battle, they have to limit the movement of big bosses. It's not that the don't want them to move, it's more along the lines of technical constraints. Attempting to render the movements of 100+ people, all the spells everyone's using, the boss attacks, and the boss movements (who happens to take up your entire screen) would be a complete nightmare. They've said that the smaller bosses will be more mobile in fights, but it's just not feasible for larger bosses, such as the dragons, to move a lot.
Why is it not feasible, RIFT manages it as well as countless others...
Back on topic: it is still way too early to say that bosses are static. From what little we have seen of them so far, they don't appear to be any more static than any other MMO. But we have seen, one, maybe two different bosses so far? Remember this game is in closed beta, what we saw we saw while the game was in ALPHA state. And they were not all that static.
hmm well so far i've seen like 6 gw2-bosses in videos.. all were more or less static and stayed mainly on the same place:
- 2 big dragons
- a giant ice worm
- some kind of demonic face
- that skeleton arm with the object flying around
- a bigger giant-boss half stuck in stone
of course we havent seen all bosses yet.. gw2 is still not out.. but static-bosses might be a downside of the combat-system with no holy trinity (=you dont need a real tank when you have bosses which dont/cant move around lot) or the staged massively events (f.e. seen at the gc2011-dragon.. it would be quite hard to shot that big laser on a much-moving-around dragon).. but well lets see..
What about the broodmother? That was a boss that certainly moved around quite a bit. 3 of your examples are the end encounter of the tutorials by the way, I'm not sure if you can really cite those level 1 encounters as evidence that all bosses will be static.
It's not that the big bosses cannot move around the zone. It's more like during the battle, they have to limit the movement of big bosses. It's not that the don't want them to move, it's more along the lines of technical constraints. Attempting to render the movements of 100+ people, all the spells everyone's using, the boss attacks, and the boss movements (who happens to take up your entire screen) would be a complete nightmare. They've said that the smaller bosses will be more mobile in fights, but it's just not feasible for larger bosses, such as the dragons, to move a lot.
Why is it not feasible, RIFT manages it as well as countless others...
And this is open world boss so potentially every player in game to attack it at same time...
Cool looking boss, although it seems about as much movement as I saw in the GW2 Shatterer videos.
Its a decent tank keeping it in place for once, no other tank aggro whores! lol
Other similar large bosses can change form, go underground, teleport, split, with however many players in zone at once. So it should be easily technically possible for boss movements in games coming out now.
But this isn't Rift, it's Guild Wars 2. So even if the huge dragons in Rift can move around, they generally stay in place, thanks to the Tank holding aggro. Guild Wars 2 doesn't have Tanks or any viable way for a player to hold aggro without dying instantly. So the arguement in favour of moving huge bosses becomes mute, when when typical the bosses don't move much in Rift either and only the mechanics force players to move, just like in Guild Wars 2. Let's compare this similar bosses:
Both seem to have about the same movement, but Guild Wars 2 tries to keep all players engaged, with mechanics aimed at everyone and not just the tank and a few melee DPS. Also the bosses you mentioned that do stuff like go underground and teleport, only happen in the Dungeons & Raids of Rift. So lets wait and see the Dungeons of GW2.
Back on topic: it is still way too early to say that bosses are static. From what little we have seen of them so far, they don't appear to be any more static than any other MMO. But we have seen, one, maybe two different bosses so far? Remember this game is in closed beta, what we saw we saw while the game was in ALPHA state. And they were not all that static.
hmm well so far i've seen like 6 gw2-bosses in videos.. all were more or less static and stayed mainly on the same place:
- 2 big dragons
- a giant ice worm
- some kind of demonic face
- that skeleton arm with the object flying around
- a bigger giant-boss half stuck in stone
of course we havent seen all bosses yet.. gw2 is still not out.. but static-bosses might be a downside of the combat-system with no holy trinity (=you dont need a real tank when you have bosses which dont/cant move around lot) or the staged massively events (f.e. seen at the gc2011-dragon.. it would be quite hard to shot that big laser on a much-moving-around dragon).. but well lets see..
Well the game has more mobile bosses and they are smaller than the more static ones. Like this dog thing and don't say it isn't a boss. If it's capable of one-shotting players, then it is a boss. So I expect to see a variety of massive static bosses taking up the whole screen and some not-so-massive more mobile bosses.
But this isn't Rift, it's Guild Wars 2. So even if the huge dragons in Rift can move around, they generally stay in place, thanks to the Tank holding aggro. Guild Wars 2 doesn't have Tanks or any viable way for a player to hold aggro without dying instantly. So the arguement in favour of moving huge bosses becomes mute, when when typical the bosses don't move much in Rift either and only the mechanics force players to move, just like in Guild Wars 2. Let's compare this similar bosses:
Both seem to have about the same movement, but Guild Wars 2 tries to keep all players engaged, with mechanics aimed at everyone and not just the tank and a few melee DPS. Also the bosses you mentioned that do stuff like go underground and teleport, only happen in the Dungeons & Raids of Rift. So lets wait and see the Dungeons of GW2.
Highlighted the part that nailed it. Exactly what I was thinking when I read some of the responses. Whith the classic holy trinity design, the bosses were not only stationary due to tank holding threat, but you had verry little to worry about in regards to the big attacks because the tank took it while healers just kept him standing and dps just.....well..... dps'd. Aside form some AOE's and random attacks that would target someone other than the tank, it could be a snoozefest.
Even if the bosses are static because of some design reasons, you may have to payy attention more than you had to in previouse games. All speculation at this point but still my 2 cents on the subject.
I don't consider this a downside, personally. I've played games where Bosses leap all over the map and never once found that fun. To this day I've never beaten Grogg in Champions Online, he keeps bouncing around and it annoys the shit out of me. I lose interest before he's even remotely dead.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
My concern is that the "dynamic" boss fights will only happen in the one placement for each boss as designed. Okay, the problem with this far as I see it is that the game would have more interesting options if these epic fights could spawn one boss mob in random locations (e.g., one big skeletal dragon always attacking near the water but never the same dragon etc attacking a different place). This is where I say the static portion of the fights may turn stale and if possible gw2 I believe should consider much more open possibilities instead of static spawn points.
I notice something about GW2, is that the big boss fights the boss is always static. This seem to be immersion breaking. Maybe this is due to poor design, but it's a major concern about the game. I hope this issue can be address before release, and that the boss fights we seen so far are just place holders.
what's your opinion on this?
mmoexposed is getting fucking annoying! I doubt this is even his opinion.. Starting arguments just gets him off..
Isn't that the very definition of a troll ?
I mean, I usually don't mind his posts because they are at least kind of thought provoking...if sometimes misguided. But it does seem like he is trolling sometimes.
Well I guess trolling is saying anything negative...
I second your concern, however most bosses I've seen in WoW aren't that dynamic either. I am comparing them to raid bosses for 25 or 40 players. You have to keep in mind, that huge boss encounters need to be designed in a way they make sense for the game mechanics. In WoW they don't move that much, because a tank absorbs most of the damage and - well - tanks the boss. in GW2 you cannot tank, because there is no aggro mechanic in the traditional sense. Hence bosses in the open world need to be static or let's say mostly pinned to one point in order to keep combat interesting. If the boss would move around and attack one player after another, the whole event group would die in an instant. In order to replace the dynamic of a boss moving around, ANet needs to make sure there are other boss mechanics, which keep the encounter dynamic. Like flying high in the air, raining down fire and landing on the same spot again, which can be seen in both dragon leutenant boss encounters, adds, tentacles which pick you up and hurl you toward the boss and others. They also have said, that the engine limits movement of huge mobs. So you won't see them fly around in the open world. I wouldn't say it's poor design to go that route, but since combat is chaotic in GW2 you need to make sure every or most encounter(s) in the open world can be experienced by anyone. I guess, a little movement wouldn't hurt, but you can't make them roam the area...unlike boss encounters in the dungeons. Those will be much more dynamic and difficult.
All bosses in WoW are static as mentioned, because of the tanking. Well GW2 doesn't have Tanking correct? So why are the bosses even more static? They stay in a single location with different phases processes going on around the players. If any of you played Rift, I expect bosses to move around with positional attacks like the death boss in the first Chronicle. It moves around, jumps, and has positional attacks. Why is it that this wouldn't work in a MMO that doesn't have tanking mechanics? That's basically the same thing going on in the chronicle fight. I can understand that Rift is on a different engine than GW2, which could be holding it back, but that's not still a reasonable point of concern to discuss?
My concern is that the "dynamic" boss fights will only happen in the one placement for each boss as designed. Okay, the problem with this far as I see it is that the game would have more interesting options if these epic fights could spawn one boss mob in random locations (e.g., one big skeletal dragon always attacking near the water but never the same dragon etc attacking a different place). This is where I say the static portion of the fights may turn stale and if possible gw2 I believe should consider much more open possibilities instead of static spawn points.
I agree with this. Static bosses are one thing that I can see little wrong with when comparing to other games. Static spawn points I could see an argument going either way though. I think it would have more flavor if there were some randomness to spawning.
You know, one thing I would like to add is that not every single system in GW2 has to be amazingly innovative and groundbreakingly fun for it to be a good and innovative game. Even if boss fights are static (whatever that means), this does not immediately take away GW2's innovative card or make it non-immersive. I can guarantee you right now, that there will be parts of GW2 that are not innovative at all. This may be one of them...I don't really know. But the point is that it may not even matter. So long as the overall game is fun and fresh...then the fact that an individual feature is not fresh doesn't matter.
I didn't say anything about innovation here. You did. I just stated that I feel that bosses shouldn't be so static in a game like this which has it's focus points on both nonTanking gameplay as well as positional attacking.
There are no tanks in GW2. People need to think for a moment what that means for boss fight design and movement.
Guild Wars 2 is designed around no tank and spanking, as well as positional attacking.
How does static bosses fit into this? If positions is an important part of the gameplay, why would the main targets be stationary? Pretty counterproductive dont you think?
It's not that the big bosses cannot move around the zone. It's more like during the battle, they have to limit the movement of big bosses. It's not that the don't want them to move, it's more along the lines of technical constraints. Attempting to render the movements of 100+ people, all the spells everyone's using, the boss attacks, and the boss movements (who happens to take up your entire screen) would be a complete nightmare. They've said that the smaller bosses will be more mobile in fights, but it's just not feasible for larger bosses, such as the dragons, to move a lot.
Why is it not feasible, RIFT manages it as well as countless others...
Awesome looking fight. Don't get me wrong I am so looking forward to GW2, can't come soon enough
But is that fight scripted - will it always be in the same place - jump on the same mountain bit?
The same can be said for the major Ember Isle bosses in RIFT, they end up in the same place. But the rest can invade and be fought anywhere in the zone, atacks npc's ect.. So there still is no technical constraints imo.
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I assume you are trying to make a point, but it flew over my head. Care to try again, but a bit on the topic of GW2 instead of World of Warcraft?
Sure. <cough> Sorry 'bout that.
There, in the WoW example, you see the marquis fight against Deathwing himself. Well... you see people fighting these burning finger things on it's back... but you get the point.
In GW2, although some of the bigger event bosses (The Shatterer, for example) are relatively stationary due to their size, other smaller world bosses not so much. For example, ANet likes to mention people finding places, opening things they shouldn't, now there's a boss released and rampaging across the landscape.
The largest bosses, in this game without tanks, need to be relatively stationary just to make the mechanics work. Imagine Tequatl, for example, getting hungry during a battle, seeing a deer a quarter mile away and running off to eat it. Now everyone eitiher has to hope he comes back or start the long, slow run to catch up to him. That really doesn't fit in the mechanics well at all.
If i remember coreclty, in one interview anet devs said that those realy huge bosses will be static becouse it would create a lot of problems in various open world surrounding if they would let them move around . Smaller bosses will have more freedom .
The biggest bosses doesn;t move b/c there are a lot of other factors to think about in their fights. there are additional monsters comming from other directions, there is siege weaponry which you should be able to use to attack them, they summon defences etc. The whole dynamics of the boss fight are high so it would be too easy to destroy the balance if they started to move around. The smaller bosses which doesn;t have that sophisticatedly arranged fights with a lot of additional mechanics will move around battlefiled.
Have you ever asked yourself why most of the time bosses in games like Devil May Cry or Bayonnetta doesn't move? For the same reasons the biggest bosses in GW2 won't move. I bet they could make them move, but then we can forget about a lot of neat additional mechanics during the fight.
Something tells me there will be alot more "staticity" to this game than many people believe.
But we're all just guessing here. We'll just have to wait and see. Even if I'm right, maybe they'll be clever enough to create a good illusion of non-static content.
I notice something about GW2, is that the big boss fights the boss is always static. This seem to be immersion breaking. Maybe this is due to poor design, but it's a major concern about the game. I hope this issue can be address before release, and that the boss fights we seen so far are just place holders.
what's your opinion on this?
My opinion...
Let the game release first.
Agree...
This is too specific of an issue to intelligently discuss at this point. All we know is what we've seen from a few videos. It's hard to know if a fight "feels" static without actually participating in it.
I have to agree in this.
It may look like static but if u participate in a battle like this it may make u feel right.
Truth be told we cant judge a game from videos reviews advertisments cg's etc.
We must play the game and see how it feels.The only problem is that we have every time to spent 60 euro for a game in order to see if it suits our needs.Till now i haven't find an mmo that satisfies me 75%.
I notice something about GW2, is that the big boss fights the boss is always static. This seem to be immersion breaking. Maybe this is due to poor design, but it's a major concern about the game. I hope this issue can be address before release, and that the boss fights we seen so far are just place holders.
what's your opinion on this?
mmoexposed is getting fucking annoying! I doubt this is even his opinion.. Starting arguments just gets him off..
Isn't that the very definition of a troll ?
I mean, I usually don't mind his posts because they are at least kind of thought provoking...if sometimes misguided. But it does seem like he is trolling sometimes.
Well I guess trolling is saying anything negative...
trolling is saying something negative with no substance to back it
In a game with no tanks and healers is pretty much only one strategy possible when you are fighting huge boss. And that is zerging. For which the boss has to be more or less static.
There is a reason why GW2 has no raids. Raiding and complicated boss mechanincs don`t work without tanks and healers.
In a game with no tanks and healers is pretty much only one strategy possible when you are fighting huge boss. And that is zerging. For which the boss has to be more or less static.
There is a reason why GW2 has no raids. Raiding and complicated boss mechanincs don`t work without tanks and healers.
Sry but thats ignorance. Ther is an aggro mechanic, sry if it's not a tank n spank style for you. And how does a no holy trinity, which there is still heals and dmg mitigation just no heal spamming or center aggro holder, equate to a static boss requirement? Both SWTOR and WoW have plenty of static bosses so don't see why people are griping about this. Already GW2 showss a lot more mechanics to a boss than most MMOs in the world DEs. And it's laughable to think people claiming this will apply to dungeons when their designed for challenges.
In a game with no tanks and healers is pretty much only one strategy possible when you are fighting huge boss. And that is zerging. For which the boss has to be more or less static.
There is a reason why GW2 has no raids. Raiding and complicated boss mechanincs don`t work without tanks and healers.
No.. it's actually quite the opposite. The holy trinity encourages a very static gameplay. The healers heal, tanks tank and everyone else just spams damage. There's nothing dynamic here. And like others said, tanks hold the enemy in one spot anyway so your point is moot.
In GW2, players will have to improvise constantly to counter small and large enemies so the combat is going to be more interesting. Calling it a "zerg" really doesn't do it justice. There's a lot more behind it than that.
I do agree with you, the bosses do feel very static but I also am under the mindset that, "the game isn't even done yet". I imagine they'll make the bosses not-so-static if enough people complain about it (arenanet is pretty awesome). I mean they already re-worked alot of The Shatterer already so give it some time.
Comments
but its not as impressive as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX8GJcGIVbI or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1JfSbKjHHI
both fly down and both are open world bosses.
What about the broodmother? That was a boss that certainly moved around quite a bit. 3 of your examples are the end encounter of the tutorials by the way, I'm not sure if you can really cite those level 1 encounters as evidence that all bosses will be static.
But this isn't Rift, it's Guild Wars 2. So even if the huge dragons in Rift can move around, they generally stay in place, thanks to the Tank holding aggro. Guild Wars 2 doesn't have Tanks or any viable way for a player to hold aggro without dying instantly. So the arguement in favour of moving huge bosses becomes mute, when when typical the bosses don't move much in Rift either and only the mechanics force players to move, just like in Guild Wars 2. Let's compare this similar bosses:
- Rift openworld raid boss
- Guild Wars 2 latest iteration of the Shatterer boss
Both seem to have about the same movement, but Guild Wars 2 tries to keep all players engaged, with mechanics aimed at everyone and not just the tank and a few melee DPS. Also the bosses you mentioned that do stuff like go underground and teleport, only happen in the Dungeons & Raids of Rift. So lets wait and see the Dungeons of GW2.
Well the game has more mobile bosses and they are smaller than the more static ones. Like this dog thing and don't say it isn't a boss. If it's capable of one-shotting players, then it is a boss. So I expect to see a variety of massive static bosses taking up the whole screen and some not-so-massive more mobile bosses.
Highlighted the part that nailed it. Exactly what I was thinking when I read some of the responses. Whith the classic holy trinity design, the bosses were not only stationary due to tank holding threat, but you had verry little to worry about in regards to the big attacks because the tank took it while healers just kept him standing and dps just.....well..... dps'd. Aside form some AOE's and random attacks that would target someone other than the tank, it could be a snoozefest.
Even if the bosses are static because of some design reasons, you may have to payy attention more than you had to in previouse games. All speculation at this point but still my 2 cents on the subject.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I don't consider this a downside, personally. I've played games where Bosses leap all over the map and never once found that fun. To this day I've never beaten Grogg in Champions Online, he keeps bouncing around and it annoys the shit out of me. I lose interest before he's even remotely dead.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Thinking back to EQ, if you had the raid bosses moving around, it basically meant they were in the process of wiping the raid
My concern is that the "dynamic" boss fights will only happen in the one placement for each boss as designed. Okay, the problem with this far as I see it is that the game would have more interesting options if these epic fights could spawn one boss mob in random locations (e.g., one big skeletal dragon always attacking near the water but never the same dragon etc attacking a different place). This is where I say the static portion of the fights may turn stale and if possible gw2 I believe should consider much more open possibilities instead of static spawn points.
mmoexposed is getting fucking annoying! I doubt this is even his opinion.. Starting arguments just gets him off..
Isn't that the very definition of a troll
?
I mean, I usually don't mind his posts because they are at least kind of thought provoking...if sometimes misguided. But it does seem like he is trolling sometimes.
Well I guess trolling is saying anything negative...Philosophy of MMO Game Design
All bosses in WoW are static as mentioned, because of the tanking. Well GW2 doesn't have Tanking correct? So why are the bosses even more static? They stay in a single location with different phases processes going on around the players. If any of you played Rift, I expect bosses to move around with positional attacks like the death boss in the first Chronicle. It moves around, jumps, and has positional attacks. Why is it that this wouldn't work in a MMO that doesn't have tanking mechanics? That's basically the same thing going on in the chronicle fight. I can understand that Rift is on a different engine than GW2, which could be holding it back, but that's not still a reasonable point of concern to discuss?Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I agree with this. Static bosses are one thing that I can see little wrong with when comparing to other games. Static spawn points I could see an argument going either way though. I think it would have more flavor if there were some randomness to spawning.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I didn't say anything about innovation here. You did. I just stated that I feel that bosses shouldn't be so static in a game like this which has it's focus points on both nonTanking gameplay as well as positional attacking.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I assume you are trying to make a point, but it flew over my head. Care to try again, but a bit on the topic of GW2 instead of World of Warcraft?Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Guild Wars 2 is designed around no tank and spanking, as well as positional attacking.How does static bosses fit into this? If positions is an important part of the gameplay, why would the main targets be stationary? Pretty counterproductive dont you think?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Awesome looking fight. Don't get me wrong I am so looking forward to GW2, can't come soon enough
But is that fight scripted - will it always be in the same place - jump on the same mountain bit?
The same can be said for the major Ember Isle bosses in RIFT, they end up in the same place. But the rest can invade and be fought anywhere in the zone, atacks npc's ect.. So there still is no technical constraints imo.
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Sure. <cough> Sorry 'bout that.
There, in the WoW example, you see the marquis fight against Deathwing himself. Well... you see people fighting these burning finger things on it's back... but you get the point.
In GW2, although some of the bigger event bosses (The Shatterer, for example) are relatively stationary due to their size, other smaller world bosses not so much. For example, ANet likes to mention people finding places, opening things they shouldn't, now there's a boss released and rampaging across the landscape.
The largest bosses, in this game without tanks, need to be relatively stationary just to make the mechanics work. Imagine Tequatl, for example, getting hungry during a battle, seeing a deer a quarter mile away and running off to eat it. Now everyone eitiher has to hope he comes back or start the long, slow run to catch up to him. That really doesn't fit in the mechanics well at all.
Oderint, dum metuant.
If i remember coreclty, in one interview anet devs said that those realy huge bosses will be static becouse it would create a lot of problems in various open world surrounding if they would let them move around . Smaller bosses will have more freedom
.
Anyway this is limitation i can live with
The biggest bosses doesn;t move b/c there are a lot of other factors to think about in their fights. there are additional monsters comming from other directions, there is siege weaponry which you should be able to use to attack them, they summon defences etc. The whole dynamics of the boss fight are high so it would be too easy to destroy the balance if they started to move around. The smaller bosses which doesn;t have that sophisticatedly arranged fights with a lot of additional mechanics will move around battlefiled.
Have you ever asked yourself why most of the time bosses in games like Devil May Cry or Bayonnetta doesn't move? For the same reasons the biggest bosses in GW2 won't move. I bet they could make them move, but then we can forget about a lot of neat additional mechanics during the fight.
Something tells me there will be alot more "staticity" to this game than many people believe.
But we're all just guessing here. We'll just have to wait and see. Even if I'm right, maybe they'll be clever enough to create a good illusion of non-static content.
I have to agree in this.
It may look like static but if u participate in a battle like this it may make u feel right.
Truth be told we cant judge a game from videos reviews advertisments cg's etc.
We must play the game and see how it feels.The only problem is that we have every time to spent 60 euro for a game in order to see if it suits our needs.Till now i haven't find an mmo that satisfies me 75%.
Maybe gw 2 do the trick.
trolling is saying something negative with no substance to back it
Well, what did you expect?
In a game with no tanks and healers is pretty much only one strategy possible when you are fighting huge boss. And that is zerging. For which the boss has to be more or less static.
There is a reason why GW2 has no raids. Raiding and complicated boss mechanincs don`t work without tanks and healers.
Sry but thats ignorance. Ther is an aggro mechanic, sry if it's not a tank n spank style for you. And how does a no holy trinity, which there is still heals and dmg mitigation just no heal spamming or center aggro holder, equate to a static boss requirement? Both SWTOR and WoW have plenty of static bosses so don't see why people are griping about this. Already GW2 showss a lot more mechanics to a boss than most MMOs in the world DEs. And it's laughable to think people claiming this will apply to dungeons when their designed for challenges.
No.. it's actually quite the opposite. The holy trinity encourages a very static gameplay. The healers heal, tanks tank and everyone else just spams damage. There's nothing dynamic here. And like others said, tanks hold the enemy in one spot anyway so your point is moot.
In GW2, players will have to improvise constantly to counter small and large enemies so the combat is going to be more interesting. Calling it a "zerg" really doesn't do it justice. There's a lot more behind it than that.
Eat me!
I do agree with you, the bosses do feel very static but I also am under the mindset that, "the game isn't even done yet". I imagine they'll make the bosses not-so-static if enough people complain about it (arenanet is pretty awesome). I mean they already re-worked alot of The Shatterer already so give it some time.