Originally posted by Zekiah Exploration in Theme Park designs...
...if you're lucky.
Sad but true. But the TOR fans will tell you it comes in the form of looking for the datacrons. The sad part is they really beleive this is what exploration is all about.
No, not exactly. For people with the idea that exploration is "All or Nothing", SWToR has none. Which is not true...you can explore. The amount of content you can explore is small, very true. But it exists.
The thread's title would be more accurate as "Where's the Open World?" Then people could quickly say, "Duh, it's a theme park. Why did you expect an open world?"
I woulda left the picture in since it prety much said it all . It did show a very little amount of exploration as well haha.
I don't agree that just because it is a themepark that it cannot have open world explorations. What about GW2 then? It is constantly called a themepark yet the game is all anbout exploration and as unlinear as they can make it? Only bringing GW2 up because it is an example of exploration. FFXI? Rare spawns that dropped rare gear so people explored to find them. Just 2 examples of games that are conciddered "themeparks" but have a good amount of exploration. I don't think it is all or nothing myself. I don't concidder WoW to have no exploration though there was really very little in that game as well. But TOR is so tunneled that it really really stands out. Title seems fitting.
I didn't take it out...the editor did that for me. Just imagine a picture of a mouse in a maze.
** edit ** The title is somewhat misleading. Is the game linear? Yes. Is the game an 'open world' style game? No. Not at all. It is a cinematic, story driven game.
However, does exploration exist? Yes. You can explore, you can find things outside of your story line and the side quest story lines. There is content in the game that serves no purpose other than for people to find it or walk into it and look around. You have to look for it though. You're not going to just wander into that stuff. You're going to have to find it.
'Exploration' in old school games was the only way to get around. If you didn't wander around without a map or any directions, you weren't playing the game. You could remove all the quest question marks and the map from SWToR and people could call it 'exploration'.
** edit ** For that matter, players could skip most of the quests and 'explore' the game. There is a lot of real estate to walk around in.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I haven't played SWTOR but if it's anything like Rift in how linear it is, or worse, then I'm extra glad I didn't pick it up.
One of the best things about SWG was map-rollover because it made you feel like it was a real planet and not just a gimmick with linear walls of magic protection. Games that are heavily linear are atrocious to play for me and I'm sure others like yourself. It just kills immersion.
Some can disagree with me if they want, but TOR actually feels more linear when it comes to the exploration. In rifts they gave people all of those little artifacts to find and some felt that it was enough to make the game feel like exploration and in some ways I guess it was. You also could wind up at a different quest hub than was expected if you decided to explore instead of following the bread crumbs and that wasn't too bad. But the fact that all toons leveled the exact same pathway through zones and each zone seemed small for some reason made the game seem pretty limiting.
TOR is the exact same with a few exceptions. In some regards there can be an argument it is less linear because you can do these space flight simulator minigames for exp and money so it feels like you dont have to go to a planet when it says to, but I found myself getting ahead of my quests and that made the game boring since content doesnt scale and you were now fighting mobs that are lower than you. When in the zones it is so railed that you dont find yourself wandering to a different quest hub until the game tells you to because the game is full of these zones within zones that are dedicated to hoeroic, or group quests and the mobs can be pretty rough on anyone that is just wanting to explore the area. While the mobs aren't to tough to kill for some classes, they are pretty annoying if you aren't looking to fight them because the fights can take a bit. This almost felt like a boudary in the game without being a boundary and I would only go in the heroic zones if I had a quest to, but once that quest was done there was never a reason to go back. Not to mention these zones are meant for groups and when you do group for them, the other members arent really interested in exploring because they want to get the quest done and go on with their leveling.
IMO TOR is actually worse than Rift in regards to exploration and railed gameplay, but not by much. If this was a big turnoff for you in Rift, it will bother you in TOR as well.
Just an idea but is not a bit to early to claim the GW2 have lots of exploration card?
Just an opinion
Actually it isn't because the game has shown in demos that there are bosses that can only be found through exploration. Not to mention that some DE's only will be set off by the explorer types who do go into places that are really tough to get to. I understand that maybe you may not like the game, I don't know, but GW2 plays a perfect example of this and you should go read up on it before posting.
I didn't take it out...the editor did that for me. Just imagine a picture of a mouse in a maze.
** edit **
The title is somewhat misleading. Is the game linear? Yes. Is the game an 'open world' style game? No. Not at all. It is a cinematic, story driven game.
However, does exploration exist? Yes. You can explore, you can find things outside of your story line and the side quest story lines. There is content in the game that serves no purpose other than for people to find it or walk into it and look around. You have to look for it though. You're not going to just wander into that stuff. You're going to have to find it.
'Exploration' in old school games was the only way to get around. If you didn't wander around without a map or any directions, you weren't playing the game. You could remove all the quest question marks and the map from SWToR and people could call it 'exploration'.
** edit **
For that matter, players could skip most of the quests and 'explore' the game. There is a lot of real estate to walk around in.
I can agree with you on your points. I wasn't saying it is completely non existent, only that aside from the datacrons the game is not designed to encourage it. There are guides out to gather thes datacrons so even calling it exploration at this point is a stretch since they are always there and don't randomly spawn. Just look them up and go to them. But other than that there is no real reason since the questing paths are designed to lead you from point A - X and along the way you open areas of the map and get the exp from that as well so there is never a darked out portion that makes you wonder what is in there. My highest is only 34 so maybe I just haven't hit the zone but I don't feel it will change. The only place that has had real estate was the desert and if you think walking around a large area is the same as exploration then I guess we just think differently on what exploratin actually is.
Actually, their reasoning was actually fairly good. If you looked at their maps, they followed exactly who went where and found almost NOT (as in next to zero) players were remotely interested in exploration. If I can find the article I'll repost it.
Those aren't the particular article but they follow the same idea.
I would completely agree with their reasoning. Having said that, I feel that if a game's developers don't say "there is stuff to find" players aren't going to go looking for it. Especially since more recent games don't have a lot in the way of discovery. Personally I love exploring. And though I love the feel of some of SWToR's more open spaces I don't get the sense that exploring will yield anything of interest other than a hidden datacron.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
And btw, how's that space exploration coming along?
I think you are confusing Star Trek with Star Wars. Trek is all about space exploration, sw is all about exploring individual heroic journeys.
Ahh, well it's kinda hard to be a hero when you're on rails though, let alone explore like that. Fly-by exploration perhaps?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
@FlawSGI: Demos being the critical part. Even for hardcore GW2 followers like you claiming to know everything about that game now is a bit of a stretch.
Don't hype yourself to much or you are going to end disappointed. Keep your head cool and it's going to end better for you.
Exploration, like so many MMO features some of us remember fondly from our days in games like EQ, is a thing of the past. Today's MMO player wants something different, something that gets him easily through the content and to max level so he can PVP, raid, chase gear or whatever. Hence the rise of the themepark. WoW is probably the last of its kind in offering anything more than a streamlined handheld journey to the top. Plus, us older gamers just don't have the time to spend in MMOs that we used to, between work, family etc. Yes I look back at EQ with very happy memories, but the reality is I wouldn't be able to play it now with the couple of hours each day I can spend in game. BW is just following the modern trend and not wasting time and resources on giant, rich environments that only a very small number of players would take time to explore or even take notice of.
Nope; WOW is not the last game that does not offer streamlined mmo gaming.Vanguard makes WOW game world look small and just about any other mmo out today.Its world is vast and even if you played for two years you still would not have been everywhere in Telon.
Its open and has a vast amount of content and many ways to advance.Sixteen classes and ninteen races plus 14-16 different starter areas with own quests and dungeons that you would not see for years unless you had an atl of every race.I played EQ for four years and i agree that exploration was great but in Vanguard its a whole other ball game.Just like EQ you can go anywhere in the world from level one,not that you would get very far.On top of that you have xp lost everytime you die not az extreame as EQ but as close as it gets from any other mno.
@FlawSGI: Demos being the critical part. Even for hardcore GW2 followers like you claiming to know everything about that game now is a bit of a stretch.
Don't hype yourself to much or you are going to end disappointed. Keep your head cool and it's going to end better for you.
And where did I claim to know everything about the game? Yes it was a demo of gameplay but when discussing the subject it is enough proof that the game has an element of what we are talking about. And it has been said to death that they only show something if it is in the game. Why would I doubt that they are catering to the explorer types when they show proof of what they say.
Don't hate so much and you might actually not be disappointed. Keep your head cool and it's might end better for you. If all you have to prove a point is personal attacks then you have nothing. Good day.
I've found datacrons and named/world bosses in some pretty obscure locations. I think they do a fairly good job of coaxing you to travel off the beaten path. It's no Star Wars Galaxies, but explorers do have a little something to pursue. Finding these datacrons and then figuring out the puzzle to get them is pretty neat and it's unfortunate that many people gloss over this.
I've found datacrons and named/world bosses in some pretty obscure locations. I think they do a fairly good job of coaxing you to travel off the beaten path. It's no Star Wars Galaxies, but explorers do have a little something to pursue. Finding these datacrons and then figuring out the puzzle to get them is pretty neat and it's unfortunate that many people gloss over this.
Until you realise you have to have completed Super Mario 100 x and Prince of Persia 1000 x to actually be able to get to half of them
95% + will not bother and youtube them and even then its still an absolute bitch.
Although I do agree on the world bosses part, especially a certain corpse clicking one
I've found datacrons and named/world bosses in some pretty obscure locations. I think they do a fairly good job of coaxing you to travel off the beaten path. It's no Star Wars Galaxies, but explorers do have a little something to pursue. Finding these datacrons and then figuring out the puzzle to get them is pretty neat and it's unfortunate that many people gloss over this.
Once again, maybe it is because I am only 34, but even the world bosses have been found by me by not really going off the path that much. I can see where they aren't on the leveling paths, but even they aren't really off the pth to be honest. if the datacrons or the world bosses had some randomness then maybe they would be kinda exploration but as it stands now, DC are always in same spots and any guide will point you right to them, and world bosses are the same unless someone killed them recently. Exploration really should have some element of the unknown and this is not a new concept in MMO's, just seems like people have forgotten.....
Now I'm lost. Can someone with a better understanding of forum etiquette, explain to me: where in my previous post I used personal attacks?
Because I must be using some wrong word.
In the first post you accused me of playing the GW2 fan card without adding anything to the discussion at all. I even put on that post the reason I mention the game in a TOR forum just so people like you don't bash the opinion and you still got hung up on that one part without addressing anythig else.
In the second post you said even a hardcore GW2 follower like me who claims to know everything about the game and nowhere was that stated and you ONCE again provided zero input to the conversation other than to say I claimed to know everything about the game and that I am hyping myslef up for a let down. Thats twice you attacked and added nothing to the conversation and now you cry victim? Really!? Last thing I want is a warning but I have been addressing you in kind. Try answering the discussion with actual input and less on trying to claim character flaws mmmk. nothing wrong with having different opinions on a game so relax a little and add your thoughts.
All bioware games are linear, so i don't know why people are surprised. their last game DA2 was terrible and highlights that since EA have taken over the quality of their titles has suffered.
This.
I still get shivers when I remember DA2. Damn that is one kind of awful game.
Anyway yeah BW games are preety linear and they even get more linear as time passes. I mean Baldur's Gate could be called extremly open compared to DA2.
Have yet to play an MMORPG with any serious amount of exploration.. besides UO. The other sandbox I played was EvE but that lacks true exploration as well.
This game's exploration is similar to Rift's, but Rift dangles a larger carrot. WoW didn't give a shit about exploration and even discouraged it. Travelling off beaten paths in this game has netted me some named mobs and chests, but that's about it. I couldn't call Datacrons exploration, but they are fun to get imo.
There is plenty of exploration in SWTOR for a themepark game. The datacrons and lore objects do give you reasons to explore if that is your thing.
I think a lot of you are still just upset that the game didn't end up like SWG where there was pretty much no content and everything was just giant sprawling empty maps (except for the player houses everywhere). The funny thing is that most of you who want your games to be like this doomed yourselves by whining about and forever turning your back on SWG after the NGE and combat upgrade. In doing so, you told developers everywhere that sandbox games were not the way to go. Had you not abandoned the game and talked trash about it relentlessly FOR YEARS, SWG might still be around and SWTOR may never have come into being. Alas, that's not how it went. Too bad. Deal with it.
There is plenty of exploration in SWTOR for a themepark game. The datacrons and lore objects do give you reasons to explore if that is your thing.
I think a lot of you are still just upset that the game didn't end up like SWG where there was pretty much no content and everything was just giant sprawling empty maps (except for the player houses everywhere). The funny thing is that most of you who want your games to be like this doomed yourselves by whining about and forever turning your back on SWG after the NGE and combat upgrade. In doing so, you told developers everywhere that sandbox games were not the way to go. Had you not abandoned the game and talked trash about it relentlessly FOR YEARS, SWG might still be around and SWTOR may never have come into being. Alas, that's not how it went. Too bad. Deal with it.
The only thing that doomed SWG was luca$ arts and $OE.
Comments
I didn't take it out...the editor did that for me. Just imagine a picture of a mouse in a maze.
** edit **
The title is somewhat misleading. Is the game linear? Yes. Is the game an 'open world' style game? No. Not at all. It is a cinematic, story driven game.
However, does exploration exist? Yes. You can explore, you can find things outside of your story line and the side quest story lines. There is content in the game that serves no purpose other than for people to find it or walk into it and look around. You have to look for it though. You're not going to just wander into that stuff. You're going to have to find it.
'Exploration' in old school games was the only way to get around. If you didn't wander around without a map or any directions, you weren't playing the game. You could remove all the quest question marks and the map from SWToR and people could call it 'exploration'.
** edit **
For that matter, players could skip most of the quests and 'explore' the game. There is a lot of real estate to walk around in.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Some can disagree with me if they want, but TOR actually feels more linear when it comes to the exploration. In rifts they gave people all of those little artifacts to find and some felt that it was enough to make the game feel like exploration and in some ways I guess it was. You also could wind up at a different quest hub than was expected if you decided to explore instead of following the bread crumbs and that wasn't too bad. But the fact that all toons leveled the exact same pathway through zones and each zone seemed small for some reason made the game seem pretty limiting.
TOR is the exact same with a few exceptions. In some regards there can be an argument it is less linear because you can do these space flight simulator minigames for exp and money so it feels like you dont have to go to a planet when it says to, but I found myself getting ahead of my quests and that made the game boring since content doesnt scale and you were now fighting mobs that are lower than you. When in the zones it is so railed that you dont find yourself wandering to a different quest hub until the game tells you to because the game is full of these zones within zones that are dedicated to hoeroic, or group quests and the mobs can be pretty rough on anyone that is just wanting to explore the area. While the mobs aren't to tough to kill for some classes, they are pretty annoying if you aren't looking to fight them because the fights can take a bit. This almost felt like a boudary in the game without being a boundary and I would only go in the heroic zones if I had a quest to, but once that quest was done there was never a reason to go back. Not to mention these zones are meant for groups and when you do group for them, the other members arent really interested in exploring because they want to get the quest done and go on with their leveling.
IMO TOR is actually worse than Rift in regards to exploration and railed gameplay, but not by much. If this was a big turnoff for you in Rift, it will bother you in TOR as well.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Darkfall is the only game I know with a real sense of exploration. You might want to check it out.
However, I think the game is on the decline. The big problem with it is that it was/is a grind-fest.
Just an opinion
From beta-testers it seem that ArcheAge will be preety cool for exploring.
Seamless no loading screens , even if you go from one continent to other using ship.
Actually it isn't because the game has shown in demos that there are bosses that can only be found through exploration. Not to mention that some DE's only will be set off by the explorer types who do go into places that are really tough to get to. I understand that maybe you may not like the game, I don't know, but GW2 plays a perfect example of this and you should go read up on it before posting.
Just an opinion.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I can agree with you on your points. I wasn't saying it is completely non existent, only that aside from the datacrons the game is not designed to encourage it. There are guides out to gather thes datacrons so even calling it exploration at this point is a stretch since they are always there and don't randomly spawn. Just look them up and go to them. But other than that there is no real reason since the questing paths are designed to lead you from point A - X and along the way you open areas of the map and get the exp from that as well so there is never a darked out portion that makes you wonder what is in there. My highest is only 34 so maybe I just haven't hit the zone but I don't feel it will change. The only place that has had real estate was the desert and if you think walking around a large area is the same as exploration then I guess we just think differently on what exploratin actually is.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I would completely agree with their reasoning. Having said that, I feel that if a game's developers don't say "there is stuff to find" players aren't going to go looking for it. Especially since more recent games don't have a lot in the way of discovery. Personally I love exploring. And though I love the feel of some of SWToR's more open spaces I don't get the sense that exploring will yield anything of interest other than a hidden datacron.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think you are confusing Star Trek with Star Wars. Trek is all about space exploration, sw is all about exploring individual heroic journeys.
Ahh, well it's kinda hard to be a hero when you're on rails though, let alone explore like that. Fly-by exploration perhaps?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Don't hype yourself to much or you are going to end disappointed. Keep your head cool and it's going to end better for you.
Nope; WOW is not the last game that does not offer streamlined mmo gaming.Vanguard makes WOW game world look small and just about any other mmo out today.Its world is vast and even if you played for two years you still would not have been everywhere in Telon.Its open and has a vast amount of content and many ways to advance.Sixteen classes and ninteen races plus 14-16 different starter areas with own quests and dungeons that you would not see for years unless you had an atl of every race.I played EQ for four years and i agree that exploration was great but in Vanguard its a whole other ball game.Just like EQ you can go anywhere in the world from level one,not that you would get very far.On top of that you have xp lost everytime you die not az extreame as EQ but as close as it gets from any other mno.
And where did I claim to know everything about the game? Yes it was a demo of gameplay but when discussing the subject it is enough proof that the game has an element of what we are talking about. And it has been said to death that they only show something if it is in the game. Why would I doubt that they are catering to the explorer types when they show proof of what they say.
Don't hate so much and you might actually not be disappointed. Keep your head cool and it's might end better for you. If all you have to prove a point is personal attacks then you have nothing. Good day.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I've found datacrons and named/world bosses in some pretty obscure locations. I think they do a fairly good job of coaxing you to travel off the beaten path. It's no Star Wars Galaxies, but explorers do have a little something to pursue. Finding these datacrons and then figuring out the puzzle to get them is pretty neat and it's unfortunate that many people gloss over this.
Until you realise you have to have completed Super Mario 100 x and Prince of Persia 1000 x to actually be able to get to half of them
95% + will not bother and youtube them and even then its still an absolute bitch.
Although I do agree on the world bosses part, especially a certain corpse clicking one
Once again, maybe it is because I am only 34, but even the world bosses have been found by me by not really going off the path that much. I can see where they aren't on the leveling paths, but even they aren't really off the pth to be honest. if the datacrons or the world bosses had some randomness then maybe they would be kinda exploration but as it stands now, DC are always in same spots and any guide will point you right to them, and world bosses are the same unless someone killed them recently. Exploration really should have some element of the unknown and this is not a new concept in MMO's, just seems like people have forgotten.....
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Because I must be using some wrong word.
In the first post you accused me of playing the GW2 fan card without adding anything to the discussion at all. I even put on that post the reason I mention the game in a TOR forum just so people like you don't bash the opinion and you still got hung up on that one part without addressing anythig else.
In the second post you said even a hardcore GW2 follower like me who claims to know everything about the game and nowhere was that stated and you ONCE again provided zero input to the conversation other than to say I claimed to know everything about the game and that I am hyping myslef up for a let down. Thats twice you attacked and added nothing to the conversation and now you cry victim? Really!? Last thing I want is a warning but I have been addressing you in kind. Try answering the discussion with actual input and less on trying to claim character flaws mmmk. nothing wrong with having different opinions on a game so relax a little and add your thoughts.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
This.
I still get shivers when I remember DA2. Damn that is one kind of awful game.
Anyway yeah BW games are preety linear and they even get more linear as time passes. I mean Baldur's Gate could be called extremly open compared to DA2.
Go play EQ2, if you are looking for that, and accept what this game offers....pepsi generation gamers...omg..
Frankly I don't know what is supposed to keep the players playing? It's one of the most static, bottlenecked experiences I have had in an MMO.
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/
Have yet to play an MMORPG with any serious amount of exploration.. besides UO. The other sandbox I played was EvE but that lacks true exploration as well.
This game's exploration is similar to Rift's, but Rift dangles a larger carrot. WoW didn't give a shit about exploration and even discouraged it. Travelling off beaten paths in this game has netted me some named mobs and chests, but that's about it. I couldn't call Datacrons exploration, but they are fun to get imo.
.. But in a good way.
This is one of the reasons why I tend to favor sandboxes.
There is plenty of exploration in SWTOR for a themepark game. The datacrons and lore objects do give you reasons to explore if that is your thing.
I think a lot of you are still just upset that the game didn't end up like SWG where there was pretty much no content and everything was just giant sprawling empty maps (except for the player houses everywhere). The funny thing is that most of you who want your games to be like this doomed yourselves by whining about and forever turning your back on SWG after the NGE and combat upgrade. In doing so, you told developers everywhere that sandbox games were not the way to go. Had you not abandoned the game and talked trash about it relentlessly FOR YEARS, SWG might still be around and SWTOR may never have come into being. Alas, that's not how it went. Too bad. Deal with it.
The only thing that doomed SWG was luca$ arts and $OE.
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/