Generally I prefer exploring with conjunction to some other goal...badges in CoH, Achievements in WoW, I suppose datacrons will work (if I ever get around to doing them).
But 'pure' exploration has its charms too, in limited doses.
I agree - prefer exploring with a side goal
Free Realms, for all its faults, did have some nice exploration - w sights and "out of the way" collections
1. The freedom to go where I want at anytime. Being restricted to the level 10 area, then level 20, then 30 is just boring. I want to wander and just see things. That brings me to number 2.
2. Have things to see and find. Nooks and crannies with happy surprises. Yeah, they can't really be predetermined all the time, otherwise people look up on some site and find where the goods are so there is no reason to explore. I always look behind waterfalls. Why? The exploration. I wonder what's back there. In most MMORPGs you wonder what is back there at first, and when you never find anything, you stop exploring. There needs to be caves, secrets, treasures underwater, wrecked ships to wander through, strange hermit NPCs to find. Whatever! Stuff. We explore to see and find cool things.
So, as I read all of the post... one thing comes to my mind. The fact that for just about every game there is always a Wiki page with ALL the info posted there... this ruins the exploration completely.
Now, can't the companies that release these games have some kind of legal document that prohibits anyone from spoiling the content of their product to the public? I mean, there has to be someway of doing this legally.
If I was to Develop a game, I would be on this right of the start... No wiki at all!
I would want players to exchange, trade information in the game only. Information is a comodity and it costs money.
i7@4.2Ghz, 12GB@1600Mhz, GTx580 SLi, 1920x1080@120Hz, 7.1 Creative Gigaworks S750 162 Original PC Game collection. Surprisingly not a virgin.
So, as I read all of the post... one thing comes to my mind. The fact that for just about every game there is always a Wiki page with ALL the info posted there... this ruins the exploration completely.
Now, can't the companies that release these games have some kind of legal document that prohibits anyone from spoiling the content of their product to the public? I mean, there has to be someway of doing this legally.
If I was to Develop a game, I would be on this right of the start... No wiki at all!
I would want players to exchange, trade information in the game only. Information is a comodity and it costs money.
Its just impossible to enforce even legally. And if you use that legal contract to sue players it will only piss people off and make them hate you.
I was thinking about something like the Eye of the World or the Tower of Wayerth that is not always found or moves around the world and so you just can't find it on purpose. In my game there are no NPCs but there are ruins and stuff that may work that way. And I may allow players to make wizard's towers that move like that and to role play secret mages guilds or something.
My response is pretty cliche, but TES Morrowind and Skyrim explain my basic "exploration" wants in an mmo. General areas for main questlines and a few side quests...but entire maps filled with goodies/quests/loot/scenery/etc etc...that need to be discovered rather than railroaded into.
If you played these games I am sure you'll know what I mean. Easier to experience than explain.
A mystery. Not knowing what I'm going to find before I get there.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
EQ1 was a great example of exploration..( I say was becuase Sony basically modernized it)
No Maps - one had to go out and explore the zones,making a mental map based on landmarks.This gave a great sense of caution,fun,danger,and wonder.
Dungeon Mazes - the dungeons are big and intricate,no one way path with a hand leading you a long.Often times there would be many forks in the road leading you to the unknown..you better hope your invis spell sticks
Rare mobs - sure you knew what zone they were in,but they could be ANYWHERE in that zone..
I'd say maps/fog of war are a huge killer of the sense of exploration.
I love how people are taking small MMOs with full disclosure (by using WoWhead for example) and assuming that these rules apply across the board, while it's been pointed out multiple times that games with a much larger pool of areas and items have managed to maintain an element of mystery and are esoteric by virtue of sheer size.
Sure, in games like WoW all there is to be discovered is quickly discovered, now go figure out the Kunark named cycle for example. I'm sure it's on the internet, I just googled it to be sure, but how much help is that going to be to you unless you're familiar with the area thanks to exploration? What about the Umbral Plains? How easily can you now execute and trigger the various events there thanks to the internet?
Now that you have been directed and know what to Google, pretty easy, right? Now honestly, how would you have even known to look for these things as they're not marked by any kind of event indicator?
You wouldn't have.
Unless you'd discovered them through exploration or possibly heard of them through word of mouth, and even in their prime they weren't exactly hot topics of discussion as they were a few small examples out of hundreds. I'm sure there are people that have played for years and had no idea about one or both of these examples.
So yes, if you know exactly what you're looking for, you can most likely find help online. However the reality is, you're more likely to discover these things through exploration than through conversation. Obviously this rule doesn't apply to tiny game worlds that clearly mark every ounce of content with an icon such as WoW & Swtor.
I guess without any basis for comparison it's hard for people to imagine as some really only have WoW or Swtor as a reference point still. What might help you grasp the concept is to imagine WoWs landmass x10 (at least?) and remove all the quest icons. What exactly would you Google then?
It's a rhetorical question as by now anyone that still doesn't grasp how and why this happens in games that are in existance at the moment is either intentionally being obtuse or unlikely to ever comprehend anyway.
Exploration to me means I can go anywhere I can see, with no artificial barriers. And that taking time to roam means I'll encounter things that those following the beaten path may never find, or even know that they're missing.
It's true that the proliferation of wikis and guides makes this scenario less likely, but game design has a lot to answer for here too. It's not so much putting things out there to be found, with 'one path' to find it (hello Datacrons, even though they generally have more than one way to get to them), but more like scattering things about the place (world bosses with no associated quests, random spawns wandering a wide path, goodies hidden in the middle of nowhere, etc.).
The last game I played that had that all of that kind of stuff in it was Fallen Earth, and I loved it for it. You could mark a waypoint on your map to come back to a place later...but then, of course, people started trading waypoints and complaining if they sat in spot x for 4 hours and there was no mob spawn...so sometimes I honestly think game devs can't win for losing. A lot of players don't seem to be hot on the idea of discovery anymore, they just want everything laid out on a platter or bread-crumbed to within an on-screen centimeter.
And the problem with large game worlds that cater to this kind of exploration is that players say they're too big and feel too empty as a result...even if they're supposed to be post-apocalyptic wasteland. Sigh.
I saw someone in another thread bemoan the lack of exploration in SWTOR, and it got me to wondering, what is it exactly that they are looking for in this feature?
I mean sure, on the surface it sounds easy, give me a large interesting gameworld that takes some significant time to traverse and I'll be happy.
But wait. What exactly do you hope to find or do in this large universe? I remember Vanguard and it had a large world to explore, but when I went out into it I ran into three things, nice scenery, mob choked areas that had to be fought through, and barren areas that were probably just unfinished. Not much after that and not nearly as interesting as I would have hoped for.
Looking at the pretty scenery can be fun, but that only goes so far, eventually you have to give people something to do in that big world.
I've seen a couple of variants over the years. There could be resource nodes perhaps, or a dungeon that people could visit, or a treasure chest laying around for someone to find. Perhaps there might be a mini-quest, who knows, maybe Devs could put in some white water rafting? In EVE exploration was an actual PVE mechanic, where you went out in your ship trying find hidden space junk and what not which you could profit from.
Anyways, I'd be interested in learning what other folks think exploration really entails and what sort of content they expect developers to provide outside of pretty scenery.
edit: I had to mention SWTOR because lately all threads in these forums must have an obligatory reference to it.
Vanguard, perfect example. You explored and found nothing, so clearly there's nothing to discover, right? I see how this works.
Meanwhile one of the best pre-level cap mana regen items in game is in an unmarked cave in eastern Thestra from a mob that appears after completing an unmarked cycle of events that you wouldn't (and obviously didn't) discover without exploration.
While we're on Thestra (near New Targanor specifically), it sounds as if you also failed to discover the ring event there - which offers some extremely nice loot for the level range and is very worth doing. You probably even looted some items required to trigger it but decided they were bugged as the events not marked in any way (or wasn't when last I played). It's something again that you wouldn't have discovered without exploration or word of mouth info.
What about the dungeon event near Bordinar's Cleft? I guess you didn't discover that either. To be fair on that one though it seems to bug one out of every four times we tried completing it.
What about the hidden barrows dungeon beneath what's now the housing zone/a housing zone? The one hidden beneath one of about 60 unmarked sarcophagi that you wouldn't find unless you clicked on the right one by accident or curiousity? I discovered that through exploration, and it was really cool - after we figured out the mini event within, which admittedly took some experimentation.
See? There were hidden things all along, you just assumed that because you didn't find anything or look closely enough, it wasn't there.
You explored and found nothing, we explored and found a variety of mini events and locations that weren't marked on a map or pointed to by any NPC. Are these events on some wiki somewhere? Possibly, I haven't looked, but unless you knew what you were looking for due to exposure from another player or chat you wouldn't find them, as you wouldn't really be able to just google 'Show me the hidden stuff!'.
Vanguard, perfect example. You explored and found nothing, so clearly there's nothing to discover, right? I see how this works.....
See? There were hidden things all along, you just assumed that because you didn't find anything or look closely enough, it wasn't there......
You explored and found nothing, we explored and found a variety of mini events and locations that weren't marked on a map or pointed to by any NPC.
Ah, looks like you assumed my OP was my final word on Vanguard, but just because you didn't find anything or look closely enough, doesn't mean it isn't there. Maybe you could "explore" the thread a bit further?
But to save you some time, basically I said that it appears I didn't play Vanguard long enough to get to the exploration part of the game so I'll have to fall on my sword over that reference. I noticed you used the "we" word several times, I never really had a good group of "we" to do such activities, and solo exploration was not all the possible.
However, doesn't change my original premise that Vanguard had vast areas of basically "nothing", and I managed to find all of those while around level 25.
What it also had was wall to wall, higher level npc's that prevented you from freely exploring the land, I don't like having to always fight my way through (in a group no less) to get around the realm.
My class (Shaman maybe, can't remember) was not a strong soloer unlike some of the healing classes so I didn't get much chance to explore as groups tended to be focused on getting to a dungeon and fighting through it, not wandering the land in awe.
So Vanguard apparently had a lot of things to discover however its design wasn't very friendly towards it IMO.
Even in a title like WOW you'd be amazed at where I got to when I wasn't supposed to, both off the grid and on. I'd be in areas up to 20 levels above me (was hard to dodge the aggro range) but not having to run back to my corpse made it much easier to take some stupid chances including "dying" my way across the map. I tried that tactic in VG and quickly ran up 4 or 5 dead corpses and lost XP.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Your shaman was or should have been a good soloer with a decent balance of tanking, healing, and damage. It makes sense that you treated higher level areas as off limits. The aggro radius would get huge with a high level difference and would all run at you like mad. The shaman is proabaly one of the worst classes to play if you are going to solo explore. No invis, no fast speed buffs, no leap, and no feign death are going to limit you to killing a path to get anywhere. Really though, there was plenty of exploration in many of the dungeons so you probably missed out there too.
Originally posted by Vrika -A rare mob that gives a good loot and exp, or possibly just a chest or rare resource nodes -An extra quest that can be found -Npcs doing some fun event if you just stop and watch I hate what SWTOR did to 'exploration' with their datacrons. They made exploration so significant that you can't just stumble upon things, it's not exploration if you feel you have to find everything.
- That rare mob would be camped 24/7. - The quest would be fun. - The world seems more alive with NPC events like this.
Exploring should at least be an option. Sometimes, I just don't feel like slaying mob after mob after mob. Sometimes, I want to just find new places.
Getting lost? That can be fun! I get lost easily in games With this, though, I prefer "zones", so as not taking a wrong turn in California puts you in New York when you finally get your bearings. San Fransisco to San Diego would be cool, though
A huge open world lets the devs place cool things here and there for us "explorers" to bump into. There is a sense of discovery that is fun for me to experience.
[EDIT] I've always thought it would be cool to have a fog of war in MMOs. Around your starter town you know the basic area, from growing up there. You may know the other big cities but what lies between would be totally blank. You'd have to explore it to find out what is there. Maybe a bit more extreme than WoW's fog of war...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by tank017 EQ1 was a great example of exploration..( I say was becuase Sony basically modernized it)
No Maps - one had to go out and explore the zones,making a mental map based on landmarks.This gave a great sense of caution,fun,danger,and wonder.
Dungeon Mazes - the dungeons are big and intricate,no one way path with a hand leading you a long.Often times there would be many forks in the road leading you to the unknown..you better hope your invis spell sticks
Rare mobs - sure you knew what zone they were in,but they could be ANYWHERE in that zone..
I'd say maps/fog of war are a huge killer of the sense of exploration.
Sony "modernized" EQ1 because the players modernized first.
No maps - download and print a map from a website
Dungeon mazes - see above
Rare mobs - maps of known locations and targeting macros
Exploration in MMOs is dead because because of the info available to players from websites and message boards. Back in the days of EQ1 dedicated information websites were non-existent and people were more reluctant to share information on message boards.
EQ1 was a great example of exploration..( I say was becuase Sony basically modernized it)
No Maps - one had to go out and explore the zones,making a mental map based on landmarks.This gave a great sense of caution,fun,danger,and wonder.
Dungeon Mazes - the dungeons are big and intricate,no one way path with a hand leading you a long.Often times there would be many forks in the road leading you to the unknown..you better hope your invis spell sticks
Rare mobs - sure you knew what zone they were in,but they could be ANYWHERE in that zone..
I'd say maps/fog of war are a huge killer of the sense of exploration.
Sony "modernized" EQ1 because the players modernized first.
No maps - download and print a map from a website
Dungeon mazes - see above
Rare mobs - maps of known locations and targeting macros
Exploration in MMOs is dead because because of the info available to players from websites and message boards. Back in the days of EQ1 dedicated information websites were non-existent and people were more reluctant to share information on message boards.
I personally didnt use those sites,if you wanted to "modernize" by going out of your way to look all that stuff up that was your choice.
With the way the game was back then,I kind of saw those sites as cheating.
I think the two main ways to reduce the effect of the internet would be to randomize the location of things (at the very least forcing people to visit multiple locations) and as others said, make sure the world is large enough so that normal questing (assuming the game has it) only takes the player to a small fraction of the explorable world.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I didnt read the whole thread but for me true exploration could only happen with a massive world ala EVE ( but probably on land my own preference ), with player created content with no artifical barriers and a dynamic world .
- seasons changing - I would like to see seasons change in the world, now I dont mean do it in real time maybe on a smaller scale possibly like a season every month, this would have to affect the world so resources dont exist or are scarce at certain times or require efforts.
- Mob/Critter migrations - make it actually predictable but with a certain level of randomness that mobs migrate and that you actually need to search for given resources, e.g. a camp of nomad bandits dont stay in the same camp forever they move around and you might even find them on caravan somewhere, make tracking an actual skill that ppl have to learn and make that information a tradeable good.
- Player content - like I mentioned above make it so player can build their own content, if someone wants to build a wall in the middle of a forest make it possible, but make it so that things have to be maintained and that the better resources are in certain locations where ppl will have to coordinate to get them and actually do it, so if you want to build a little tent and just live somewhere its easy but building a castle actually requires some effort. I would love to travel somewhere really far and find some ruined castle that someone built a year ago that would just be awesome.
- Climbing - now I cant stress this enough I have never seen any game do this properly or do it at all really, I dont want terrain to be flat everywhere, I would like to see a proper climbing system where to reach the top of a waterfall or whatever it actually requires some effort this would make more remote areas pretty good for exploring for me personally.
- Unique quests and generated quests - now what I mean by this is, I would love to have NPCs populate player areas both currently in use and even abandoned ( some house in the middle of nowhere no one uses anymore ), this would have to be done with some quest generation system in game and ofc with the support of developers maybe even community made quests. Now those quests could have a duration or a certain time when an NPC is in an abandoned shack somewhere, maybe its a quest that only one person can do it and the NPC then leaves the place. It would be awesome to see people flocking to a location cause they have heard of this awesome quest somewhere in a fortress someone created.
These are a few of the high level points that for me would create the perfect exploration game for me and probably the best MMORPG in my opinion.
Originally posted by Xiaoki Originally posted by tank017 EQ1 was a great example of exploration..( I say was becuase Sony basically modernized it)
No Maps - one had to go out and explore the zones,making a mental map based on landmarks.This gave a great sense of caution,fun,danger,and wonder.
Dungeon Mazes - the dungeons are big and intricate,no one way path with a hand leading you a long.Often times there would be many forks in the road leading you to the unknown..you better hope your invis spell sticks
Rare mobs - sure you knew what zone they were in,but they could be ANYWHERE in that zone..
I'd say maps/fog of war are a huge killer of the sense of exploration.
Sony "modernized" EQ1 because the players modernized first.
No maps - download and print a map from a website
Dungeon mazes - see above
Rare mobs - maps of known locations and targeting macros
Exploration in MMOs is dead because because of the info available to players from websites and message boards. Back in the days of EQ1 dedicated information websites were non-existent and people were more reluctant to share information on message boards.
That's more of a problem with static content / today's technology.
A dynamic, world that grows / dwindles with player action could alleviate that.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Kyleran - "Things" in MMOs have set spawn points because of the nature of random spawns in MMOs. People figure out these set spawn points and post them online.
If you have something "cool" outside the normal questing areas then someone will find it and post it online.
Rav3n2/PukeBucket - you do know that these MMOs are programmed by people right? A company doesnt wave a magic wand and a WoW clone appears out of thin air.
A "dynamic" world would have to be programmed by people. Things like changing seasons would be a massive undertaking that would span dozens of departments. Most especially the art department. Changing seasons would effectively triple the number of zones.
A developer could either do a Fall version of zone A and a Winter version of zone A or do zone B and zone C. Even a developer is going to look at it from that perspective.
I think many posters do not appreciate what actually goes into making an MMORPG. Being able to build a house anywhere in the world may seem like a simple to you but it is someone's job to program it that could take years to finish.
Kyleran - "Things" in MMOs have set spawn points because of the nature of random spawns in MMOs. People figure out these set spawn points and post them online.
If you have something "cool" outside the normal questing areas then someone will find it and post it online.
Rav3n2/PukeBucket - you do know that these MMOs are programmed by people right? A company doesnt wave a magic wand and a WoW clone appears out of thin air.
A "dynamic" world would have to be programmed by people. Things like changing seasons would be a massive undertaking that would span dozens of departments. Most especially the art department. Changing seasons would effectively triple the number of zones.
A developer could either do a Fall version of zone A and a Winter version of zone A or do zone B and zone C. Even a developer is going to look at it from that perspective.
I think many posters do not appreciate what actually goes into making an MMORPG. Being able to build a house anywhere in the world may seem like a simple to you but it is someone's job to program it that could take years to finish.
This is not true. Housebuilding tools are relatively simple compared to most other tasks.
First time i play WOW, it is about seeing the world and explore new sights. After the 10000th time, it is about downing that boss and be first in the DPS chart.
No game, no matter how well funded, can create enough interesting places to explore. Either a) you run of places to explore, or b) you explore random generic places.
There are different ways to "explore" in my opinion.
I like exploring for quests by hailing every town person to see what they say. I do feel kind of uncomfrotable opening every door, knowing some will go into houses. I am not a person who just walks into other peoples' homes.
I like exploring different weapons and fighting styles to see what fits best with my character concept.
I like exploring in sneak mode in places I should not be and the rush of knowing if I get caught, I am dead meat.
I like exploring the different character races and classes and seeing what each has to offer and how they all play.
I like exploring crafting content to see what I can create and see if I can be creative.
Then there is the obvious one of exploring the land mass itself, seeing what is off to the right of the beaten path, for example.
There are lots of things to explore in a MMO that I enjoy.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
I agree - prefer exploring with a side goal
Free Realms, for all its faults, did have some nice exploration - w sights and "out of the way" collections
EQ2 fan sites
To me, exploration means two things.
1. The freedom to go where I want at anytime. Being restricted to the level 10 area, then level 20, then 30 is just boring. I want to wander and just see things. That brings me to number 2.
2. Have things to see and find. Nooks and crannies with happy surprises. Yeah, they can't really be predetermined all the time, otherwise people look up on some site and find where the goods are so there is no reason to explore. I always look behind waterfalls. Why? The exploration. I wonder what's back there. In most MMORPGs you wonder what is back there at first, and when you never find anything, you stop exploring. There needs to be caves, secrets, treasures underwater, wrecked ships to wander through, strange hermit NPCs to find. Whatever! Stuff. We explore to see and find cool things.
So, as I read all of the post... one thing comes to my mind. The fact that for just about every game there is always a Wiki page with ALL the info posted there... this ruins the exploration completely.
Now, can't the companies that release these games have some kind of legal document that prohibits anyone from spoiling the content of their product to the public? I mean, there has to be someway of doing this legally.
If I was to Develop a game, I would be on this right of the start... No wiki at all!
I would want players to exchange, trade information in the game only. Information is a comodity and it costs money.
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Its just impossible to enforce even legally. And if you use that legal contract to sue players it will only piss people off and make them hate you.
I was thinking about something like the Eye of the World or the Tower of Wayerth that is not always found or moves around the world and so you just can't find it on purpose. In my game there are no NPCs but there are ruins and stuff that may work that way. And I may allow players to make wizard's towers that move like that and to role play secret mages guilds or something.
My response is pretty cliche, but TES Morrowind and Skyrim explain my basic "exploration" wants in an mmo. General areas for main questlines and a few side quests...but entire maps filled with goodies/quests/loot/scenery/etc etc...that need to be discovered rather than railroaded into.
If you played these games I am sure you'll know what I mean. Easier to experience than explain.
Exploration: Finding anomalies, mysterious bad guys and astral wealth.
Exploring means to me:
A mystery. Not knowing what I'm going to find before I get there.
EQ1 was a great example of exploration..( I say was becuase Sony basically modernized it)
No Maps - one had to go out and explore the zones,making a mental map based on landmarks.This gave a great sense of caution,fun,danger,and wonder.
Dungeon Mazes - the dungeons are big and intricate,no one way path with a hand leading you a long.Often times there would be many forks in the road leading you to the unknown..you better hope your invis spell sticks
Rare mobs - sure you knew what zone they were in,but they could be ANYWHERE in that zone..
I'd say maps/fog of war are a huge killer of the sense of exploration.
I love how people are taking small MMOs with full disclosure (by using WoWhead for example) and assuming that these rules apply across the board, while it's been pointed out multiple times that games with a much larger pool of areas and items have managed to maintain an element of mystery and are esoteric by virtue of sheer size.
Sure, in games like WoW all there is to be discovered is quickly discovered, now go figure out the Kunark named cycle for example. I'm sure it's on the internet, I just googled it to be sure, but how much help is that going to be to you unless you're familiar with the area thanks to exploration? What about the Umbral Plains? How easily can you now execute and trigger the various events there thanks to the internet?
Now that you have been directed and know what to Google, pretty easy, right? Now honestly, how would you have even known to look for these things as they're not marked by any kind of event indicator?
You wouldn't have.
Unless you'd discovered them through exploration or possibly heard of them through word of mouth, and even in their prime they weren't exactly hot topics of discussion as they were a few small examples out of hundreds. I'm sure there are people that have played for years and had no idea about one or both of these examples.
So yes, if you know exactly what you're looking for, you can most likely find help online. However the reality is, you're more likely to discover these things through exploration than through conversation. Obviously this rule doesn't apply to tiny game worlds that clearly mark every ounce of content with an icon such as WoW & Swtor.
I guess without any basis for comparison it's hard for people to imagine as some really only have WoW or Swtor as a reference point still. What might help you grasp the concept is to imagine WoWs landmass x10 (at least?) and remove all the quest icons. What exactly would you Google then?
It's a rhetorical question as by now anyone that still doesn't grasp how and why this happens in games that are in existance at the moment is either intentionally being obtuse or unlikely to ever comprehend anyway.
Exploration to me means I can go anywhere I can see, with no artificial barriers. And that taking time to roam means I'll encounter things that those following the beaten path may never find, or even know that they're missing.
It's true that the proliferation of wikis and guides makes this scenario less likely, but game design has a lot to answer for here too. It's not so much putting things out there to be found, with 'one path' to find it (hello Datacrons, even though they generally have more than one way to get to them), but more like scattering things about the place (world bosses with no associated quests, random spawns wandering a wide path, goodies hidden in the middle of nowhere, etc.).
The last game I played that had that all of that kind of stuff in it was Fallen Earth, and I loved it for it. You could mark a waypoint on your map to come back to a place later...but then, of course, people started trading waypoints and complaining if they sat in spot x for 4 hours and there was no mob spawn...so sometimes I honestly think game devs can't win for losing. A lot of players don't seem to be hot on the idea of discovery anymore, they just want everything laid out on a platter or bread-crumbed to within an on-screen centimeter.
And the problem with large game worlds that cater to this kind of exploration is that players say they're too big and feel too empty as a result...even if they're supposed to be post-apocalyptic wasteland. Sigh.
Vanguard, perfect example. You explored and found nothing, so clearly there's nothing to discover, right? I see how this works.
Meanwhile one of the best pre-level cap mana regen items in game is in an unmarked cave in eastern Thestra from a mob that appears after completing an unmarked cycle of events that you wouldn't (and obviously didn't) discover without exploration.
While we're on Thestra (near New Targanor specifically), it sounds as if you also failed to discover the ring event there - which offers some extremely nice loot for the level range and is very worth doing. You probably even looted some items required to trigger it but decided they were bugged as the events not marked in any way (or wasn't when last I played). It's something again that you wouldn't have discovered without exploration or word of mouth info.
What about the dungeon event near Bordinar's Cleft? I guess you didn't discover that either. To be fair on that one though it seems to bug one out of every four times we tried completing it.
What about the hidden barrows dungeon beneath what's now the housing zone/a housing zone? The one hidden beneath one of about 60 unmarked sarcophagi that you wouldn't find unless you clicked on the right one by accident or curiousity? I discovered that through exploration, and it was really cool - after we figured out the mini event within, which admittedly took some experimentation.
See? There were hidden things all along, you just assumed that because you didn't find anything or look closely enough, it wasn't there.
You explored and found nothing, we explored and found a variety of mini events and locations that weren't marked on a map or pointed to by any NPC. Are these events on some wiki somewhere? Possibly, I haven't looked, but unless you knew what you were looking for due to exposure from another player or chat you wouldn't find them, as you wouldn't really be able to just google 'Show me the hidden stuff!'.
Ah, looks like you assumed my OP was my final word on Vanguard, but just because you didn't find anything or look closely enough, doesn't mean it isn't there. Maybe you could "explore" the thread a bit further?
But to save you some time, basically I said that it appears I didn't play Vanguard long enough to get to the exploration part of the game so I'll have to fall on my sword over that reference. I noticed you used the "we" word several times, I never really had a good group of "we" to do such activities, and solo exploration was not all the possible.
However, doesn't change my original premise that Vanguard had vast areas of basically "nothing", and I managed to find all of those while around level 25.
What it also had was wall to wall, higher level npc's that prevented you from freely exploring the land, I don't like having to always fight my way through (in a group no less) to get around the realm.
My class (Shaman maybe, can't remember) was not a strong soloer unlike some of the healing classes so I didn't get much chance to explore as groups tended to be focused on getting to a dungeon and fighting through it, not wandering the land in awe.
So Vanguard apparently had a lot of things to discover however its design wasn't very friendly towards it IMO.
Even in a title like WOW you'd be amazed at where I got to when I wasn't supposed to, both off the grid and on. I'd be in areas up to 20 levels above me (was hard to dodge the aggro range) but not having to run back to my corpse made it much easier to take some stupid chances including "dying" my way across the map. I tried that tactic in VG and quickly ran up 4 or 5 dead corpses and lost XP.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Your shaman was or should have been a good soloer with a decent balance of tanking, healing, and damage. It makes sense that you treated higher level areas as off limits. The aggro radius would get huge with a high level difference and would all run at you like mad. The shaman is proabaly one of the worst classes to play if you are going to solo explore. No invis, no fast speed buffs, no leap, and no feign death are going to limit you to killing a path to get anywhere. Really though, there was plenty of exploration in many of the dungeons so you probably missed out there too.
- The quest would be fun.
- The world seems more alive with NPC events like this.
Exploring should at least be an option. Sometimes, I just don't feel like slaying mob after mob after mob. Sometimes, I want to just find new places.
Getting lost? That can be fun! I get lost easily in games
With this, though, I prefer "zones", so as not taking a wrong turn in California puts you in New York when you finally get your bearings. San Fransisco to San Diego would be cool, though 
A huge open world lets the devs place cool things here and there for us "explorers" to bump into. There is a sense of discovery that is fun for me to experience.
[EDIT]
I've always thought it would be cool to have a fog of war in MMOs. Around your starter town you know the basic area, from growing up there. You may know the other big cities but what lies between would be totally blank. You'd have to explore it to find out what is there. Maybe a bit more extreme than WoW's fog of war...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
No maps - download and print a map from a website
Dungeon mazes - see above
Rare mobs - maps of known locations and targeting macros
Exploration in MMOs is dead because because of the info available to players from websites and message boards. Back in the days of EQ1 dedicated information websites were non-existent and people were more reluctant to share information on message boards.
I personally didnt use those sites,if you wanted to "modernize" by going out of your way to look all that stuff up that was your choice.
With the way the game was back then,I kind of saw those sites as cheating.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I didnt read the whole thread but for me true exploration could only happen with a massive world ala EVE ( but probably on land my own preference ), with player created content with no artifical barriers and a dynamic world .
- seasons changing - I would like to see seasons change in the world, now I dont mean do it in real time maybe on a smaller scale possibly like a season every month, this would have to affect the world so resources dont exist or are scarce at certain times or require efforts.
- Mob/Critter migrations - make it actually predictable but with a certain level of randomness that mobs migrate and that you actually need to search for given resources, e.g. a camp of nomad bandits dont stay in the same camp forever they move around and you might even find them on caravan somewhere, make tracking an actual skill that ppl have to learn and make that information a tradeable good.
- Player content - like I mentioned above make it so player can build their own content, if someone wants to build a wall in the middle of a forest make it possible, but make it so that things have to be maintained and that the better resources are in certain locations where ppl will have to coordinate to get them and actually do it, so if you want to build a little tent and just live somewhere its easy but building a castle actually requires some effort. I would love to travel somewhere really far and find some ruined castle that someone built a year ago that would just be awesome.
- Climbing - now I cant stress this enough I have never seen any game do this properly or do it at all really, I dont want terrain to be flat everywhere, I would like to see a proper climbing system where to reach the top of a waterfall or whatever it actually requires some effort this would make more remote areas pretty good for exploring for me personally.
- Unique quests and generated quests - now what I mean by this is, I would love to have NPCs populate player areas both currently in use and even abandoned ( some house in the middle of nowhere no one uses anymore ), this would have to be done with some quest generation system in game and ofc with the support of developers maybe even community made quests. Now those quests could have a duration or a certain time when an NPC is in an abandoned shack somewhere, maybe its a quest that only one person can do it and the NPC then leaves the place. It would be awesome to see people flocking to a location cause they have heard of this awesome quest somewhere in a fortress someone created.
These are a few of the high level points that for me would create the perfect exploration game for me and probably the best MMORPG in my opinion.
No maps - download and print a map from a website
Dungeon mazes - see above
Rare mobs - maps of known locations and targeting macros
Exploration in MMOs is dead because because of the info available to players from websites and message boards. Back in the days of EQ1 dedicated information websites were non-existent and people were more reluctant to share information on message boards.
That's more of a problem with static content / today's technology.
A dynamic, world that grows / dwindles with player action could alleviate that.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Kyleran - "Things" in MMOs have set spawn points because of the nature of random spawns in MMOs. People figure out these set spawn points and post them online.
If you have something "cool" outside the normal questing areas then someone will find it and post it online.
Rav3n2/PukeBucket - you do know that these MMOs are programmed by people right? A company doesnt wave a magic wand and a WoW clone appears out of thin air.
A "dynamic" world would have to be programmed by people. Things like changing seasons would be a massive undertaking that would span dozens of departments. Most especially the art department. Changing seasons would effectively triple the number of zones.
A developer could either do a Fall version of zone A and a Winter version of zone A or do zone B and zone C. Even a developer is going to look at it from that perspective.
I think many posters do not appreciate what actually goes into making an MMORPG. Being able to build a house anywhere in the world may seem like a simple to you but it is someone's job to program it that could take years to finish.
This is not true. Housebuilding tools are relatively simple compared to most other tasks.
It is really about content.
First time i play WOW, it is about seeing the world and explore new sights. After the 10000th time, it is about downing that boss and be first in the DPS chart.
No game, no matter how well funded, can create enough interesting places to explore. Either a) you run of places to explore, or b) you explore random generic places.
There are different ways to "explore" in my opinion.
There are lots of things to explore in a MMO that I enjoy.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR