I agree they are too heroic, one of the main drives I wanted to play wow when it wasn't even in beta yet was that I could play as that little soldier in a massive battle alongside other soldiers(players) not to play arthas or whatever.
Sorry axe but you are confusing (maybe deliberately) theme with mechanics. Slaying dragons can be made tedious and dull while farming can be interesting and exciting.
In fact, I distinctly remember "farming" 20 ft tall demon lords in a little game called WoW...
... and that's basically the crux of the argument. There is a fundamental disconnect between the theme and its execution if the theme is you being "unique hero" while there are thousands of other "unique heroes" running around as well and there is no one around but "unique heroes".
Imo this whole problem comes from the fact that game industry, and especially mmo devs, are unable to adjust to the fact that their target democratics is not a socially awkward male teenager who wants to vent his RL frustrations by play-pretending to be a dragon-slaying, girl-stealing hero. Those days are long past. Todays average mmo player is a 30 something guy who is very probably actually a girl and has a stressful job and would like to spend his or hers leisure time in a fun manner rather than a play-pretend job thinly masked as an adolescent fantasy of power.
So there is not only the disconnect between themes and mechanics, but also between the games and their target audience. No wonder mmorpg genre is sputtering like a chain-smoking grandma.
It's true my post was made under less than optimal sobriety, and completely confused theme with mechanics.
A more apt point would've been that the demographic playing MMORPGs wants to do interesting things and not (solely) farm. Although repeatedly doing interesting things ("farming" a boss) isn't ideal, it's probably still more appealing to the demographic playing MMORPGs than actual farming (or most other mundane activities.)
Are themes like farming successful? Sure, but not with MMORPG mechanics attached to them (unless you stretch your personal definition of MMORPG to encompass FarmVille.)
A venn diagram would show players interested in MMORPG Mechanics and Combat Heroics has a vastly larger overlap than those interested in MMORPG Mechanics and Farming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think the OP should be more serious and less ironic and not play into the hands of insipid game reviewers and media spokespersons from the game industry by going on with the nonsensical "heroic" adjective.
For me, I think MMO's need to dispense with this ideology that players "need" to feel heroic, I would play an MMO with a proper "build up" to that heroism by actually doing heroic stuff, you aren't a hero because you can climb walls or can dodge bullets, you're a hero when you put your arse on the line, risk life & limb and all for a cause that you felt justified it.
Heroism has become confused with super-powered, the two are not mutually-exclusive, but they are very different things.
To be heroic you need the context, coming from very mundane origins to achieve extraordinary things is more profound.
"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I think you're pretty much right. The focus on the player being the hero in MMO's isn't really a trend to applaud. I mean it's all nice and dandy in a single player game, but in an MMO it is hard to keep up the illusion. While interesting for about 2 seconds it starts to fail fast. In Rift you enter the world with "Praise the ascended that is going to save the world" or some such BS, and in the very same second you hear about 3 others being praised for the very same reason. Needless to say this is an immersion breaker from the word go.
Same with TOR where the illusion of you being special can only be maintained by wearing blinders. Playing an individual is great, but creating a story around this individual saving the world together with everybody else doing the very same thing is asking the players to check in their brain when they log into the world.
... and that's basically the crux of the argument. There is a fundamental disconnect between the theme and its execution if the theme is you being "unique hero" while there are thousands of other "unique heroes" running around as well and there is no one around but "unique heroes".
It's not so much that everyone is the unique hero, but that every journey is the heroic journey. It's a great story, Hollywood has been retelling it over and over for a hundred years.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I enjoyed fishing in UO. There was no heroic journey to thay playstyle, no boss I was out to overcome. I was merely imagining a quiet peaceful life in an exotic world. And I enjoyed it.
Not everyone who goes on vacation goes on safari. Not everyone's idea of unwinding is to seek an adrenaline rush. Not every sandbox has to be about aggression, competition and power.
MMOs have become very, very good at refining the monomyth to a streamlined rise to power. Some people complain that the journey has become too smooth. Some people complain that they notice their bubble of fantasy lore is logically inconsistent with the lore of their neighbour. But to me, this thread is asking if the industry has become too focused on this one archetypical story arc and asking if we gone too far in pushing other stories, other ways of experiencing a world, to the sidelines.
... and that's basically the crux of the argument. There is a fundamental disconnect between the theme and its execution if the theme is you being "unique hero" while there are thousands of other "unique heroes" running around as well and there is no one around but "unique heroes".
It's not so much that everyone is the unique hero, but that every journey is the heroic journey. It's a great story, Hollywood has been retelling it over and over for a hundred years.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I enjoyed fishing in UO. There was no heroic journey to thay playstyle, no boss I was out to overcome. I was merely imagining a quiet peaceful life in an exotic world. And I enjoyed it.
Not everyone who goes on vacation goes on safari. Not everyone's idea of unwinding is to seek an adrenaline rush. Not every sandbox has to be about aggression, competition and power.
MMOs have become very, very good at refining the monomyth to a streamlined rise to power. Some people complain that the journey has become too smooth. Some people complain that they notice their bubble of fantasy lore is logically inconsistent with the lore of their neighbour. But to me, this thread is asking if the industry has become too focused on this one archetypical story arc and asking if we gone too far in pushing other stories, other ways of experiencing a world, to the sidelines.
The majority want casual singleplayer games with occasional multiplayer interaction, as long as that interaction is confined to an arena and has no affect on anything outside the arena. This is cheaper, in demand, and easier to balance and control. Its hardly shocking that no one ever deviates aside from a single gameplay hook to say we are not WoW.
... and that's basically the crux of the argument. There is a fundamental disconnect between the theme and its execution if the theme is you being "unique hero" while there are thousands of other "unique heroes" running around as well and there is no one around but "unique heroes".
It's not so much that everyone is the unique hero, but that every journey is the heroic journey. It's a great story, Hollywood has been retelling it over and over for a hundred years.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I enjoyed fishing in UO. There was no heroic journey to thay playstyle, no boss I was out to overcome. I was merely imagining a quiet peaceful life in an exotic world. And I enjoyed it.
Not everyone who goes on vacation goes on safari. Not everyone's idea of unwinding is to seek an adrenaline rush. Not every sandbox has to be about aggression, competition and power.
MMOs have become very, very good at refining the monomyth to a streamlined rise to power. Some people complain that the journey has become too smooth. Some people complain that they notice their bubble of fantasy lore is logically inconsistent with the lore of their neighbour. But to me, this thread is asking if the industry has become too focused on this one archetypical story arc and asking if we gone too far in pushing other stories, other ways of experiencing a world, to the sidelines.
Agree. I believe poor old Joseph Campbell would be rolling in his grave if he could see what mockery the entertainment industry made out of his theories. If he could rise from the grave as a zombie he'd probably first visit that dork George Lucas for a midnight snack.
This is what i really loved about EQ. You start out as basically a scrub (level 1 of your class). You have to scrimp and save in a harsh world where you must make a name for yourself. You arent born or destined to become a hero. You can become whatever you want.
I do feel there should be a cap on just how heroic a game should be (for the good of the game). Ironically in EQ i was present for what was probably one of the most heroic things every done in the game (killing the Sleeper, Kerafyrm). Ironically my interested started to decline in the game rapidly after that though because nothing after that im pve really lived up to the thrill of the kill (or maybe it was just the total anticlimactic nature of his death and the fact that npc's still regarded him as flying off into the sunset after his nonexistant swath of destruction was performed)
I liked the days in lineage 2 so much when u were just a normal Soldier/Farmer that started an adventure. Every npc said something like greetings adventurer and other stuff not this overused heroic theme like nowdays. You had the chance to become noble when u were high lv to become something special and that was a good challenge back in the days too. Most mmorpgs nowdays are trying the sp route were everyone is a hero.
Comments
I agree they are too heroic, one of the main drives I wanted to play wow when it wasn't even in beta yet was that I could play as that little soldier in a massive battle alongside other soldiers(players) not to play arthas or whatever.
It's true my post was made under less than optimal sobriety, and completely confused theme with mechanics.
A more apt point would've been that the demographic playing MMORPGs wants to do interesting things and not (solely) farm. Although repeatedly doing interesting things ("farming" a boss) isn't ideal, it's probably still more appealing to the demographic playing MMORPGs than actual farming (or most other mundane activities.)
Are themes like farming successful? Sure, but not with MMORPG mechanics attached to them (unless you stretch your personal definition of MMORPG to encompass FarmVille.)
A venn diagram would show players interested in MMORPG Mechanics and Combat Heroics has a vastly larger overlap than those interested in MMORPG Mechanics and Farming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think the OP should be more serious and less ironic and not play into the hands of insipid game reviewers and media spokespersons from the game industry by going on with the nonsensical "heroic" adjective.
For me, I think MMO's need to dispense with this ideology that players "need" to feel heroic, I would play an MMO with a proper "build up" to that heroism by actually doing heroic stuff, you aren't a hero because you can climb walls or can dodge bullets, you're a hero when you put your arse on the line, risk life & limb and all for a cause that you felt justified it.
Heroism has become confused with super-powered, the two are not mutually-exclusive, but they are very different things.
To be heroic you need the context, coming from very mundane origins to achieve extraordinary things is more profound.
"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I think you're pretty much right. The focus on the player being the hero in MMO's isn't really a trend to applaud. I mean it's all nice and dandy in a single player game, but in an MMO it is hard to keep up the illusion. While interesting for about 2 seconds it starts to fail fast. In Rift you enter the world with "Praise the ascended that is going to save the world" or some such BS, and in the very same second you hear about 3 others being praised for the very same reason. Needless to say this is an immersion breaker from the word go.
Same with TOR where the illusion of you being special can only be maintained by wearing blinders. Playing an individual is great, but creating a story around this individual saving the world together with everybody else doing the very same thing is asking the players to check in their brain when they log into the world.
It's not so much that everyone is the unique hero, but that every journey is the heroic journey. It's a great story, Hollywood has been retelling it over and over for a hundred years.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I enjoyed fishing in UO. There was no heroic journey to thay playstyle, no boss I was out to overcome. I was merely imagining a quiet peaceful life in an exotic world. And I enjoyed it.
Not everyone who goes on vacation goes on safari. Not everyone's idea of unwinding is to seek an adrenaline rush. Not every sandbox has to be about aggression, competition and power.
MMOs have become very, very good at refining the monomyth to a streamlined rise to power. Some people complain that the journey has become too smooth. Some people complain that they notice their bubble of fantasy lore is logically inconsistent with the lore of their neighbour. But to me, this thread is asking if the industry has become too focused on this one archetypical story arc and asking if we gone too far in pushing other stories, other ways of experiencing a world, to the sidelines.
The majority want casual singleplayer games with occasional multiplayer interaction, as long as that interaction is confined to an arena and has no affect on anything outside the arena. This is cheaper, in demand, and easier to balance and control. Its hardly shocking that no one ever deviates aside from a single gameplay hook to say we are not WoW.
Agree. I believe poor old Joseph Campbell would be rolling in his grave if he could see what mockery the entertainment industry made out of his theories. If he could rise from the grave as a zombie he'd probably first visit that dork George Lucas for a midnight snack.
i need my MMORPG to be more like a MMORPG. Not some money generating formula.
I think that Mmorpg's should be less heroic..
This is what i really loved about EQ. You start out as basically a scrub (level 1 of your class). You have to scrimp and save in a harsh world where you must make a name for yourself. You arent born or destined to become a hero. You can become whatever you want.
I do feel there should be a cap on just how heroic a game should be (for the good of the game). Ironically in EQ i was present for what was probably one of the most heroic things every done in the game (killing the Sleeper, Kerafyrm). Ironically my interested started to decline in the game rapidly after that though because nothing after that im pve really lived up to the thrill of the kill (or maybe it was just the total anticlimactic nature of his death and the fact that npc's still regarded him as flying off into the sunset after his nonexistant swath of destruction was performed)
I liked the days in lineage 2 so much when u were just a normal Soldier/Farmer that started an adventure. Every npc said something like greetings adventurer and other stuff not this overused heroic theme like nowdays. You had the chance to become noble when u were high lv to become something special and that was a good challenge back in the days too. Most mmorpgs nowdays are trying the sp route were everyone is a hero.