While I respect your philosophical grounds for liking the models, I don't see how a company would want a significally smaller amount of players than they would have if the just changed some of their char designs.
Of course Salem will not be for everyone, permadeath alone is enough to alienate 95% of the MMO gamers. So why alienate 4% more, just because you made models that look like baby dolls?
Salem will be niche enough as it is, they should at least try to attract the sandbox gamers who like the setting and mechanics but prefer their characters to at least look remotely realistic. Because despite what you seem to think, it is possible to make more realistic models than this.
I agree with everything you wrote, and god damn is that character model bad in that picture. I very well may not be able to get used to those models...even if the game is super fun.
Originally posted by Biskop Originally posted by lizardbones
I like the character models. They are unique and acknowledge the silliness of trying to make something that looks realistic in a medium where looking realistic is impossible.
** edit ** It should have been obvious from H&H's design, but the developer is making a game that they want to make, that they know a certain number of people want to play. It's a very respectable way to go about making a game. I like this too. It acknowledges the silliness of trying to make something for everyone, when that is impossible.
While I respect your philosophical grounds for liking the models, I don't see how a company would want a significally smaller amount of players than they would have if the just changed some of their char designs. Of course Salem will not be for everyone, permadeath alone is enough to alienate 95% of the MMO gamers. So why alienate 4% more, just because you made models that look like baby dolls? Salem will be niche enough as it is, they should at least try to attract the sandbox gamers who like the setting and mechanics but prefer their characters to at least look remotely realistic. Because despite what you seem to think, it is possible to make more realistic models than this.
Watch some commercials. Look around at some advertising. The little Pop-Tart guys, the XBox avatars, the Nintendo avatars, the Little Big World guy. That Cute/Creepy look is "in".
Also, watch the Cinnamon Toast Crunch commercials. Not even because of this thread, but because it is hilarious to watch cannibalistic cereal. I laugh to myself just thinking about those commercials. But still, cute and creepy.
It's "In". I don't know if this is why that's the direction they're taking the game in, but it certainly seems like a possibility (to me). It may pull in more people to a game where the PvP or Permadeath would normally turn them away.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I cant talk for other people but I wish they dint go down this lane on the art direction.
I dont mind low quality graphics, low polys or LQ textures with rudimentary animations. But I dont like cutesy models nor do I like the skanky / super butch models predominant in asian games. Something semi-realistic for the genre is all that I ask for. Sadly many devs dont go that way with the game art, instead choose to include the toaster-shoulderguards, lingerie armour pieces or in this matter bobbing head dolls...
I will try the game when Im able to but I still wish this game would look different once it opens doors.
Watch some commercials. Look around at some advertising. The little Pop-Tart guys, the XBox avatars, the Nintendo avatars, the Little Big World guy. That Cute/Creepy look is "in".
Also, watch the Cinnamon Toast Crunch commercials. Not even because of this thread, but because it is hilarious to watch cannibalistic cereal. I laugh to myself just thinking about those commercials. But still, cute and creepy.
It's "In". I don't know if this is why that's the direction they're taking the game in, but it certainly seems like a possibility (to me). It may pull in more people to a game where the PvP or Permadeath would normally turn them away.
I'm sure you're right about that look being hip, but I doubt Salem will attract a mass audience of Xbox and Nintendo players anyway. It's a small niche PC game, and if H&H's mechanics says anything about Salem, any 14 year old emo kid who comes looking to play a cute Tim Burton-looking doll game will probably get bored by the effort required to achieve anything in-game - not to mention their tears when some PK guy permanently finishes off their baby avatar and steal all their pixels.
i dont mind the graphics at all, in fact, i think they have some much needed personality. i think the anachronicistic flare will really stand out, when semi toon burtonesque half men are slaughtering eachother and waging war on carnivorous witches.
this is definately a game for mature people, and by including pseudo cutesy bobble headed avatars, the devs have in a single stroke banished at least half of the mindless 15 year old l33t gankers who wont even touch this game.
im very happy that i will only be playing salem with a community of people who from the very start, had to be mature enough to get past superficial cuteness.
and even not counting that, i think the graphicx express alot more personality that two thirds of the high end graphic monsters you usually see on MMORPG.com. this game is going to rock.
Watch some commercials. Look around at some advertising. The little Pop-Tart guys, the XBox avatars, the Nintendo avatars, the Little Big World guy. That Cute/Creepy look is "in".
Also, watch the Cinnamon Toast Crunch commercials. Not even because of this thread, but because it is hilarious to watch cannibalistic cereal. I laugh to myself just thinking about those commercials. But still, cute and creepy.
It's "In". I don't know if this is why that's the direction they're taking the game in, but it certainly seems like a possibility (to me). It may pull in more people to a game where the PvP or Permadeath would normally turn them away.
I'm sure you're right about that look being hip, but I doubt Salem will attract a mass audience of Xbox and Nintendo players anyway. It's a small niche PC game, and if H&H's mechanics says anything about Salem, any 14 year old emo kid who comes looking to play a cute Tim Burton-looking doll game will probably get bored by the effort required to achieve anything in-game - not to mention their tears when some PK guy permanently finishes off their baby avatar and steal all their pixels.
There's a big difference between "more people" and "mass audience". This game is certainly not a mass audience game, but it could grab a lot of people who would normally not even try a pvp, perma-death sandbox game.
Seriously though, watch the Cinnamon Toast Crunch commercials the next time you see them on T.V. I would recommend youtube, but all of those seem to be from 2009.
** edit *8 Also, imagine the number of people mindlessly doing the same thing over and over again on Farmville or some similar game. That is easily as boring or more boring than any sandbox game. The PK thing will turn people off, but not everyone will quit. Some of them will have friends who will use the in-game system to hunt the PKer down.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I was moderately interested in the game uptill I saw those recent screens. I find it very hard to take seriously, and just as I have a hard time playing any heavily eastern themed graphic style game I imagine ill also struggle to take it Salem seriously aswell.
Its just not for me and I also dont feel it fits the theme either, unless ive grossly misjudged what the theme was supposed to be. They could easily have done heavily stylised yet simple graphics and kept the dark feel, and not went down some bizzare cutesy path like they appear to have.
Same for me as well. The initial idea was great, but the graphics style killed it for me.
yeah.... it's kinda hard to take it seriously when everyone looks like a bobblehead. i like to think that i'm fairly forgiving of artistic choices, but the heads on the chars in salem need to be smaller. they look pretty stupid right now. (stupid is the only word for it. they don't look cute/chibi/anime or any of that. they just look ill-proportioned like someone mixed up the model or something).
well given alot of graphics are still placeholders im not too effected bythe graphics.. but i dislike the look of the hands.. the whole /- look really urks me some what.. the bobble heads while weird looking isnt soo bad slight change compaired to the hnh graphics. i just dont like the whole arm/hand look.. i feel like im going to curtsy looking like that...
I'm in agreeance with the masses here. The graphics are just to silly for a hardcore mmo. They are targeting the hardcore genre and using childrens graphics to do it...I don't get that.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
There's no real reason behind the graphics unless they were on purpose, i.e. placeholder. The time it takes to make those compared to more realistic models is little. It has been said the graphics are placeholders, which makes sense to test the systems.
There's no real reason behind the graphics unless they were on purpose, i.e. placeholder. The time it takes to make those compared to more realistic models is little. It has been said the graphics are placeholders, which makes sense to test the systems.
Where has this been said? Would be interesting to know more about it if it's true.
There's no real reason behind the graphics unless they were on purpose, i.e. placeholder. The time it takes to make those compared to more realistic models is little. It has been said the graphics are placeholders, which makes sense to test the systems.
Where has this been said? Would be interesting to know more about it if it's true.
it was said in the video with the devs and total bisket. they state that alot of the graphics are placeholders while they finish up the final art. namely the lack of graphics on the windmill the dev rotates and moves to place while talking about building stuff ect.
There's no real reason behind the graphics unless they were on purpose, i.e. placeholder. The time it takes to make those compared to more realistic models is little. It has been said the graphics are placeholders, which makes sense to test the systems.
Where has this been said? Would be interesting to know more about it if it's true.
it was said in the video with the devs and total bisket. they state that alot of the graphics are placeholders while they finish up the final art. namely the lack of graphics on the windmill the dev rotates and moves to place while talking about building stuff ect.
Hm.. I thought that just meant that the graphics would be a bit more advanced in the finished game, i.e. more polygons, more lighting effects + shadows, perhaps higher resolution options etc for the existing models.
He never says that the overall design will be replaced by a more realistic look.
After all, the devs seem to like the cartoony stuff; H&H looks like a children's book from the 80's so I guess they think that look is cool or something.
There's no real reason behind the graphics unless they were on purpose, i.e. placeholder. The time it takes to make those compared to more realistic models is little. It has been said the graphics are placeholders, which makes sense to test the systems.
Where has this been said? Would be interesting to know more about it if it's true.
it was said in the video with the devs and total bisket. they state that alot of the graphics are placeholders while they finish up the final art. namely the lack of graphics on the windmill the dev rotates and moves to place while talking about building stuff ect.
Hm.. I thought that just meant that the graphics would be a bit more advanced in the finished game, i.e. more polygons, more lighting effects + shadows, perhaps higher resolution options etc for the existing models.
He never says that the overall design will be replaced by a more realistic look.
After all, the devs seem to like the cartoony stuff; H&H looks like a children's book from the 80's so I guess they think that look is cool or something.
well a majority of the graphics are staying from what i can find out on salem. but most of the "alpha" videos out right now are loaded with placeholders so its best to wait for a more finalized release before passing judgement on the graphics. they are going with a sorta ye oldie brothers grimm sorta feel so everything is kinda moody and cartoonish (i think its their way of explaining the "monsters" that populate the game) HnH has abit of a realistic look to it, just its done up in java (not a very graphic heavy support program) and like salem they wanted a sorta mystical/myth style of graphics i think. not your realism you would have in say AoC but more realistic then say WoW or such.
while i like salem's graphics on the same hand i hate the sprite graphics. ><" hopefully the ridgedness is corrected before launch i dont like barbie style toons id rather a tad more realistic avatar even if its a touch storybook cartoon
I liked the graphics in the trailer(s) but yeah, i just can't do it with the graphics being so bad. Everytyhing flickers and its just awful, i feel like its <1999.
Maybe with the good response they are hopefully getting, an investor or publisher can get them some artist talent/$$ and make something that looks Torchlight-ish or even just like the trailers / concept art would be fine.
I liked the graphics in the trailer(s) but yeah, i just can't do it with the graphics being so bad. Everytyhing flickers and its just awful, i feel like its <1999.
Maybe with the good response they are hopefully getting, an investor or publisher can get them some artist talent/$$ and make something that looks Torchlight-ish or even just like the trailers / concept art would be fine.
ummm you do know paradox is the publisher right?? aka they have a publisher.... the graphics are more advanced then their self published game haven and hearth.. which is a 2d/2.5d eagle eyed viewed game..
With the Ender client that came out for it you can play in full over the shoulder 3d view. You still can't play in first person. It looks pretty good when you get down in there and angle it right. Also I'm glad the graphics are a little under par. It keeps out the types who probably shouldn't even be playing this type of game in the first place.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Most of the people following Salem seem to be bothered by the "cutesy" character designs and overall cartoony look of the game. Personally I can't understand what the devs are thinking; doll-like low-poly models with enormous heads just doesn't fit with a dark Lovecraftian world featuring witchcraft, forest monsters, and permadeath.
So while I'm extremely excited by the promised features, I'm also seriously worried that many people will not even try Salem because of horrible it looks. I will probably play it regardless (and perhaps even get used to the design), but I wonder: is there a real risk that the game loses a lot of potential players due to this?
I know that gameplay is more important than graphics, but that does not mean graphics is not important at all. In today's overcrowded MMO market, a lot of people won't look twice at something they consider ugly. And when it comes to Salem, even players who enjoy sandbox games and innovative features like permadeath are appaled by the ridiculous char models.
What do you think?
There's a point at which Graphics & Gameplay must balance each other perfectly. If the gameplay is somewhat enjoyable the graphics can be shite.
HOWEVER, the gameplay fact for Salem does NOT convey properly with the art & graphics of Salem. I'm sorry, but not a SINGLE soul I've shown Salem to will play it because of the horrible graphics direction. I don't care HOW SMALL the development team is. Look at what Notch did with Minecraft ALL BY HIMSELF. Even Minecraft's graphics are BETTER, and FIT minecraft perfectly, than Salem.
Salem already has one foot in the grave until they decide to fix the graphics my friend.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I liked the graphics in the trailer(s) but yeah, i just can't do it with the graphics being so bad. Everytyhing flickers and its just awful, i feel like its <1999.
Maybe with the good response they are hopefully getting, an investor or publisher can get them some artist talent/$$ and make something that looks Torchlight-ish or even just like the trailers / concept art would be fine.
ummm you do know paradox is the publisher right?? aka they have a publisher.... the graphics are more advanced then their self published game haven and hearth.. which is a 2d/2.5d eagle eyed viewed game..
Well maybe paradox should get them some $$ to make some reasonable graphics.. i mean I felt like i was playing Doom 1 or Doom 2 or something.
Feels like a shame to me, but its hard to look at the game the way it is
i dont mind the graphics at all, in fact, i think they have some much needed personality. i think the anachronicistic flare will really stand out, when semi toon burtonesque half men are slaughtering eachother and waging war on carnivorous witches.
this is definately a game for mature people, and by including pseudo cutesy bobble headed avatars, the devs have in a single stroke banished at least half of the mindless 15 year old l33t gankers who wont even touch this game.
im very happy that i will only be playing salem with a community of people who from the very start, had to be mature enough to get past superficial cuteness.
and even not counting that, i think the graphicx express alot more personality that two thirds of the high end graphic monsters you usually see on MMORPG.com. this game is going to rock.
I laugh at people who look at graphics first, sure it can have an impact on liking a game over time, yet they could quite simply have your character change depending on your choices ingame. For example, if you kill alot of players, you look like the wicked witch from the west, the wicked stepmother from snow white, and so on. If you chose a good role you look like a good person in the same vein. A little cliche perhaps, but maybe they have another plan since they're placeholder graphics atm.
Someone said that Runescape was crud graphic wise, and this is where I agree, graphics can be changed, modified or have new clothes that make you look like you want. If the gameplay is crud, or the world just doesn't mesh, then what's the point.
Some may even argue about other games like WoW, EvE, or say Elder Scrolls (god forbid an MMO coming) and try to compare which may possibly be valid some some way. But to base the graphics fully in this area is absurd. I loved the original Elder Scrolls, but Oblivion and Skyrim might have looked better but was shallow and empty and plain boring.
When it comes down to it, I'd prefer a game with a world that breathes on it's own merits, where I can explore and immerse myself inside it, then as long as I have a chance to be apart of the world I'm in, then it has fun factor. In the end though, nearly all games I've played of late, be it SP, MP, or an MMO, they're all boring and shallow.
When I get a chance to play this game, then I shall see how deep the hole goes, if it has next to nothing, then I bury it and leave. Having a huge timesink isn't the issue either, games lately are (imho) way too easy, repeative, and give not much back for you as a reward for playing. While I'm at it, having a huge amount of unlocks and achievements is SO shallow, it's like they're covering the fact that there isn't anything in their game.
In the end, as a player, I feel ripped off and start to not play games because of this shallowness. Until I find a game that is fun I shall keep looking....
Comments
The silly looking graphics turn me off, but I will try it anyway I'm sure. I can get over not liking the graphics. I can't get over shitty gameplay.
I agree with everything you wrote, and god damn is that character model bad in that picture. I very well may not be able to get used to those models...even if the game is super fun.
Of course Salem will not be for everyone, permadeath alone is enough to alienate 95% of the MMO gamers. So why alienate 4% more, just because you made models that look like baby dolls?
Salem will be niche enough as it is, they should at least try to attract the sandbox gamers who like the setting and mechanics but prefer their characters to at least look remotely realistic. Because despite what you seem to think, it is possible to make more realistic models than this.
Watch some commercials. Look around at some advertising. The little Pop-Tart guys, the XBox avatars, the Nintendo avatars, the Little Big World guy. That Cute/Creepy look is "in".
Also, watch the Cinnamon Toast Crunch commercials. Not even because of this thread, but because it is hilarious to watch cannibalistic cereal. I laugh to myself just thinking about those commercials. But still, cute and creepy.
It's "In". I don't know if this is why that's the direction they're taking the game in, but it certainly seems like a possibility (to me). It may pull in more people to a game where the PvP or Permadeath would normally turn them away.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I cant talk for other people but I wish they dint go down this lane on the art direction.
I dont mind low quality graphics, low polys or LQ textures with rudimentary animations. But I dont like cutesy models nor do I like the skanky / super butch models predominant in asian games. Something semi-realistic for the genre is all that I ask for. Sadly many devs dont go that way with the game art, instead choose to include the toaster-shoulderguards, lingerie armour pieces or in this matter bobbing head dolls...
I will try the game when Im able to but I still wish this game would look different once it opens doors.
I'm sure you're right about that look being hip, but I doubt Salem will attract a mass audience of Xbox and Nintendo players anyway. It's a small niche PC game, and if H&H's mechanics says anything about Salem, any 14 year old emo kid who comes looking to play a cute Tim Burton-looking doll game will probably get bored by the effort required to achieve anything in-game - not to mention their tears when some PK guy permanently finishes off their baby avatar and steal all their pixels.
i dont mind the graphics at all, in fact, i think they have some much needed personality. i think the anachronicistic flare will really stand out, when semi toon burtonesque half men are slaughtering eachother and waging war on carnivorous witches.
this is definately a game for mature people, and by including pseudo cutesy bobble headed avatars, the devs have in a single stroke banished at least half of the mindless 15 year old l33t gankers who wont even touch this game.
im very happy that i will only be playing salem with a community of people who from the very start, had to be mature enough to get past superficial cuteness.
and even not counting that, i think the graphicx express alot more personality that two thirds of the high end graphic monsters you usually see on MMORPG.com. this game is going to rock.
There's a big difference between "more people" and "mass audience". This game is certainly not a mass audience game, but it could grab a lot of people who would normally not even try a pvp, perma-death sandbox game.
Seriously though, watch the Cinnamon Toast Crunch commercials the next time you see them on T.V. I would recommend youtube, but all of those seem to be from 2009.
** edit *8
Also, imagine the number of people mindlessly doing the same thing over and over again on Farmville or some similar game. That is easily as boring or more boring than any sandbox game. The PK thing will turn people off, but not everyone will quit. Some of them will have friends who will use the in-game system to hunt the PKer down.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The playstyle will turn people off, the art style will turn people off, and the time period will turn people off.
I have to say this game is as niche as it can get.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
At first I saw the graphics and I was like "lol"
Then I heard about the crafting and I was like "cool"
Then I said "If Im going to play a game that looks like this, it better be hardcore"
Then I heard about perma-death.
I think I will try it.
Same for me as well. The initial idea was great, but the graphics style killed it for me.
Not interested.
yeah.... it's kinda hard to take it seriously when everyone looks like a bobblehead. i like to think that i'm fairly forgiving of artistic choices, but the heads on the chars in salem need to be smaller. they look pretty stupid right now. (stupid is the only word for it. they don't look cute/chibi/anime or any of that. they just look ill-proportioned like someone mixed up the model or something).
well given alot of graphics are still placeholders im not too effected bythe graphics.. but i dislike the look of the hands.. the whole /- look really urks me some what.. the bobble heads while weird looking isnt soo bad slight change compaired to the hnh graphics. i just dont like the whole arm/hand look.. i feel like im going to curtsy looking like that...
I'm in agreeance with the masses here. The graphics are just to silly for a hardcore mmo. They are targeting the hardcore genre and using childrens graphics to do it...I don't get that.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
There's no real reason behind the graphics unless they were on purpose, i.e. placeholder. The time it takes to make those compared to more realistic models is little. It has been said the graphics are placeholders, which makes sense to test the systems.
Where has this been said? Would be interesting to know more about it if it's true.
it was said in the video with the devs and total bisket. they state that alot of the graphics are placeholders while they finish up the final art. namely the lack of graphics on the windmill the dev rotates and moves to place while talking about building stuff ect.
Hm.. I thought that just meant that the graphics would be a bit more advanced in the finished game, i.e. more polygons, more lighting effects + shadows, perhaps higher resolution options etc for the existing models.
He never says that the overall design will be replaced by a more realistic look.
After all, the devs seem to like the cartoony stuff; H&H looks like a children's book from the 80's so I guess they think that look is cool or something.
well a majority of the graphics are staying from what i can find out on salem. but most of the "alpha" videos out right now are loaded with placeholders so its best to wait for a more finalized release before passing judgement on the graphics. they are going with a sorta ye oldie brothers grimm sorta feel so everything is kinda moody and cartoonish (i think its their way of explaining the "monsters" that populate the game) HnH has abit of a realistic look to it, just its done up in java (not a very graphic heavy support program) and like salem they wanted a sorta mystical/myth style of graphics i think. not your realism you would have in say AoC but more realistic then say WoW or such.
while i like salem's graphics on the same hand i hate the sprite graphics. ><" hopefully the ridgedness is corrected before launch i dont like barbie style toons id rather a tad more realistic avatar even if its a touch storybook cartoon
I liked the graphics in the trailer(s) but yeah, i just can't do it with the graphics being so bad. Everytyhing flickers and its just awful, i feel like its <1999.
Maybe with the good response they are hopefully getting, an investor or publisher can get them some artist talent/$$ and make something that looks Torchlight-ish or even just like the trailers / concept art would be fine.
ummm you do know paradox is the publisher right?? aka they have a publisher.... the graphics are more advanced then their self published game haven and hearth.. which is a 2d/2.5d eagle eyed viewed game..
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
There's a point at which Graphics & Gameplay must balance each other perfectly. If the gameplay is somewhat enjoyable the graphics can be shite.
HOWEVER, the gameplay fact for Salem does NOT convey properly with the art & graphics of Salem. I'm sorry, but not a SINGLE soul I've shown Salem to will play it because of the horrible graphics direction. I don't care HOW SMALL the development team is. Look at what Notch did with Minecraft ALL BY HIMSELF. Even Minecraft's graphics are BETTER, and FIT minecraft perfectly, than Salem.
Salem already has one foot in the grave until they decide to fix the graphics my friend.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
The graphics are ugly, but it;s the top-down stile that puts me off.
Great idea, sounds like interesting game play, but in a game with perma-death and PVP, I want to be able to see what is going on 20 feet from me.
Well maybe paradox should get them some $$ to make some reasonable graphics.. i mean I felt like i was playing Doom 1 or Doom 2 or something.
Feels like a shame to me, but its hard to look at the game the way it is
I laugh at people who look at graphics first, sure it can have an impact on liking a game over time, yet they could quite simply have your character change depending on your choices ingame. For example, if you kill alot of players, you look like the wicked witch from the west, the wicked stepmother from snow white, and so on. If you chose a good role you look like a good person in the same vein. A little cliche perhaps, but maybe they have another plan since they're placeholder graphics atm.
Someone said that Runescape was crud graphic wise, and this is where I agree, graphics can be changed, modified or have new clothes that make you look like you want. If the gameplay is crud, or the world just doesn't mesh, then what's the point.
Some may even argue about other games like WoW, EvE, or say Elder Scrolls (god forbid an MMO coming) and try to compare which may possibly be valid some some way. But to base the graphics fully in this area is absurd. I loved the original Elder Scrolls, but Oblivion and Skyrim might have looked better but was shallow and empty and plain boring.
When it comes down to it, I'd prefer a game with a world that breathes on it's own merits, where I can explore and immerse myself inside it, then as long as I have a chance to be apart of the world I'm in, then it has fun factor. In the end though, nearly all games I've played of late, be it SP, MP, or an MMO, they're all boring and shallow.
When I get a chance to play this game, then I shall see how deep the hole goes, if it has next to nothing, then I bury it and leave. Having a huge timesink isn't the issue either, games lately are (imho) way too easy, repeative, and give not much back for you as a reward for playing. While I'm at it, having a huge amount of unlocks and achievements is SO shallow, it's like they're covering the fact that there isn't anything in their game.
In the end, as a player, I feel ripped off and start to not play games because of this shallowness. Until I find a game that is fun I shall keep looking....