The "Magic" variable always exists, whether you call it magic, or the force, aether, nanobots, whatever.
Think of it in terms of healing. Nothing heals your ship faster quite like those nanobots that for some reason have a cast time or a cooldown. Nothing heals you quite as fast as magic.
Or think of it in terms of niche roles. Why are your swords glowing purple? It's because of magi--- err, I mean, it's vibrating really fast... How is it you can shoot lightning from your fingers? Magi--- errr the force! How can your ship emit a pulse that repairs my ships armor? Repair bots! How can we breathe in space? THE ENERGY OF THE UNIVERSE MAINTAINS US, which is called not-magic.
The "Magic" variable always exists, whether you call it magic, or the force, aether, nanobots, whatever.
Think of it in terms of healing. Nothing heals your ship faster quite like those nanobots that for some reason have a cast time or a cooldown. Nothing heals you quite as fast as magic.
Or think of it in terms of niche roles. Why are your swords glowing purple? It's because of magi--- err, I mean, it's vibrating really fast... How is it you can shoot lightning from your fingers? Magi--- errr the force! How can your ship emit a pulse that repairs my ships armor? Repair bots! How can we breathe in space? THE ENERGY OF THE UNIVERSE MAINTAINS US, which is called not-magic.
No...when I mean no magic, there is no magic, no nano-bots, nothing like lightning shooting out of a persons fingers.
Yes please! Give me my Mount&Blade MMO where I can play a Viking and go raid folks! Or... let me play as Celts? What about Saxons? I see no need for magic in an MMO, especially if we go for realism. Could even do with a Lord of the Rings MMO without any magic available to players, though that would raise complaints from far too many people.
I really don't think the people voting really grasp what they are voting for. They are effectively voting for Ron Paul... they are just angry at MMORPGs in general so vote for anything that is against the norm.
No magic? Really.... you guys do understand that "magic" is basically anything you have to suspend belief for (like another poster said).
That includes Eve... how does your mind stay intact while moving through what is basically a signal of some sort to your clone?? How do you control an entire ship with 1 mind? Even mechwarrior had an element of magic.
Sorry guys... that's magic. If you make an MMO completely and utterly without any suspension of belief (which Teala is what the poll should have said) you have a pretty boring game; why play it? (except for historical reasons)....
You're getting into the realm of an MMORPG called real life lol.
PS - science fiction is just a different flavor of fantasy.
Yes please! Give me my Mount&Blade MMO where I can play a Viking and go raid folks! Or... let me play as Celts? What about Saxons? I see no need for magic in an MMO, especially if we go for realism. Could even do with a Lord of the Rings MMO without any magic available to players, though that would raise complaints from far too many people.
No magic? Really.... you guys do understand that "magic" is basically anything you have to suspend belief for (like another poster said).
That includes Eve... how does your mind stay intact while moving through what is basically a signal of some sort to your clone?? How do you control an entire ship with 1 mind? Even mechwarrior had an element of magic.
Sorry guys... that's magic. If you make an MMO completely and utterly without any suspension of belief (which Teala is what the poll should have said) you have a pretty boring game; why play it? (except for historical reasons)....
You're getting into the realm of an MMORPG called real life lol.
PS - science fiction is just a different flavor of fantasy.
I think you are making a sweeping generalization of what magic is and isn't. I'm fairly certain Teala meant no magic, not a lack of a suspension of disbelief. Magic as in fireballs appearing from thing air and blowing up stuff.
A lack of magical abilities does not relegate a setting into realism. Take Zombies for example. Most zombie games and movies have no magic what so ever. The cause of zombification is often some type of a virus, disease, or other medical ailment. It boils down to humans vs. the waves of the walking undead, using any type of conventional weaponry to waylay said horde of zombies. People are healed through medical means. A zombie virus of some type wouldn't be considered magic.
I'll agree that Sci-Fi is a different flavor of fantasy. It has been said that technology beyond the realm of comprehension would be viewed as magic, because of the lack of understanding of how that technology truly works.
I really don't think the people voting really grasp what they are voting for. They are effectively voting for Ron Paul... they are just angry at MMORPGs in general so vote for anything that is against the norm.
No magic? Really.... you guys do understand that "magic" is basically anything you have to suspend belief for (like another poster said).
That includes Eve... how does your mind stay intact while moving through what is basically a signal of some sort to your clone?? How do you control an entire ship with 1 mind? Even mechwarrior had an element of magic.
Sorry guys... that's magic. If you make an MMO completely and utterly without any suspension of belief (which Teala is what the poll should have said) you have a pretty boring game; why play it? (except for historical reasons)....
You're getting into the realm of an MMORPG called real life lol.
PS - science fiction is just a different flavor of fantasy.
So any game with a loading screen which you have to suspend belief for has magic? That is any game in existence? I don't think there is the need to get into semantics, everyone understood what OP meant. In which sense, EVE or APB do not have magic.
yes i would play a medieval themed mmo with absolutely no magic as long as the melee combat was fun. something along the lines of Mount & Blade.
there are also sci-fi mmos which dont have magic like EvE and many people play them.
i would definately give it a try.
There's all sorts of magic in Eve, it's just not called "magic".
Such as?
The beams of light that somehow transport ore to your ship? How about nanobots that somehow repair your ship after being hit by shells and missiles? Are they just making metal?
The only difference between Eve not being a fantasy MMO is effectively the lore and the graphics... It would be a space wizard mmo where the wizards control giant monsters they control with their mind to shoot psi lasers (please no one make this).
I really don't think the people voting really grasp what they are voting for. They are effectively voting for Ron Paul... they are just angry at MMORPGs in general so vote for anything that is against the norm.
No magic? Really.... you guys do understand that "magic" is basically anything you have to suspend belief for (like another poster said).
That includes Eve... how does your mind stay intact while moving through what is basically a signal of some sort to your clone?? How do you control an entire ship with 1 mind? Even mechwarrior had an element of magic.
Sorry guys... that's magic. If you make an MMO completely and utterly without any suspension of belief (which Teala is what the poll should have said) you have a pretty boring game; why play it? (except for historical reasons)....
You're getting into the realm of an MMORPG called real life lol.
PS - science fiction is just a different flavor of fantasy.
So any game with a loading screen which you have to suspend belief for has magic? That is any game in existence? I don't think there is the need to get into semantics, everyone understood what OP meant. In which sense, EVE or APB do not have magic.
Oh they do lol.... Eve has "science" magic. It's like saying Warhammer 40K doesn't have magic. Just because you give a science reason for the magic to exist doesn't make it any less "magic":
Magic:
the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic.
Various other techniques = healing your ship via nanobots (looks a lot like a heal spell to me... heck you even got bubbles and resists....
For me it would have to be a Sci-Fi MMO. Such as Mechwarrior or Robotech/Macross.
Btw mechwarrior/battletech had magic...
Like actual supernatural powers.... Morgan Kell and Kai Allard Laio (I may be off on the 2nd guy) both used some kind ability through their mechs to scramble another mech's targetting systems.... we're not talking ECM here... it was like their mech hadn't existed...and weapons could not hit them.. if my memory serves me right...
I don't know if they expanded upon this later... but it was definitely treated as supernatural.
Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by Dibdabs I assume you mean a fantasy MMO as opposed to sci-fi, post-holocaust or historical? I LIKE magic in fantasy MMOs. It's part and parcel of Fantasy.
No its not! Not 50% of the world population has magic! I do. Don't you? Or are you part of the other 50%? lol
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I really don't think the people voting really grasp what they are voting for. They are effectively voting for Ron Paul... they are just angry at MMORPGs in general so vote for anything that is against the norm.
No magic? Really.... you guys do understand that "magic" is basically anything you have to suspend belief for (like another poster said).
That includes Eve... how does your mind stay intact while moving through what is basically a signal of some sort to your clone?? How do you control an entire ship with 1 mind? Even mechwarrior had an element of magic.
Sorry guys... that's magic. If you make an MMO completely and utterly without any suspension of belief (which Teala is what the poll should have said) you have a pretty boring game; why play it? (except for historical reasons)....
You're getting into the realm of an MMORPG called real life lol.
PS - science fiction is just a different flavor of fantasy.
So any game with a loading screen which you have to suspend belief for has magic? That is any game in existence? I don't think there is the need to get into semantics, everyone understood what OP meant. In which sense, EVE or APB do not have magic.
Oh they do lol.... Eve has "science" magic. It's like saying Warhammer 40K doesn't have magic. Just because you give a science reason for the magic to exist doesn't make it any less "magic":
Magic:
the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic.
Various other techniques = healing your ship via nanobots (looks a lot like a heal spell to me... heck you even got bubbles and resists....
The results may be the same but the method they work by is very different. A mage casting a fireball, and someone with a napalm grenade have the same results but very different mechanics.
I can give some rational explanations for a ship responding to your mind, or the transfer or consciousness based on rules we have today. Of course we can't do it because current technology does not allow for it, but we don't deny that it is a very real and even likely possibility in the future.
This debate is about defintions. Where is the line between science and magic? Was what we called magic back in the day simply something we didn't understand and because we didn't understand it we called it magic.
I like this answer best - scientific phenomena are reproducable and not neccessarily dependant on the person
"Roughly speaking, if you can mass-produce it, it's science, and if you can't, it's magic. As an example, suppose someone says she can transform lead into gold. If we can use her technique to build factories that turn lead into gold by the ton, then she's made an incredible scientific discovery. If on the other hand it's something that only she can do, and only under special conditions, then she's a magician. And I don't mean that she's a charlatan; she might actually be able to transform lead into gold. But scientific phenomena are reproducible by other investigators; they aren't dependent on a specific person.
Electricity might have seemed magical at one time in history, but it works for everyone; you don't need to have an innate talent or be descended from someone special for a light bulb to turn on which you flip a switch. It took the work of very smart people to get us to the point that we can all use electricity, but none of them were magicians, precisely because they were able to make their discovery work for everyone.
To go on at slightly greater length, the reason magic can't be mass-produced is that it usually relies on some subjective quality of the practitioner: her intense concentration, her spiritual purity, something that can't be substituted with another person or with a machine. Magic is, in a sense, evidence that the universe knows you're a person. When people say that the scientific worldview implies a cold, impersonal universe, this is what they're talking about. Magic is when the universe responds to you in a personal way."
Ulitmately science and magic be end up doing the exact same thing but to me, one is definately more objective and able to critically appraised than the other.
I would play one without magic, however I would hope there would still be some unusual mystery occuring. Think the later Ranger apprentice books - no magic, but definate mystery.
Venge
edit - although this is probably more true haha.
A fantasy author creates a monster by having a character in robes of any colour mumbling a spell, whereas the rules clearly state a science fiction writer has to put the character in white robes only, and have them mumbling something about genetic engineering and how at termination of protein synthesis, type I release factors promote hydrolysis of the peptidyl-transfer RNA connection in reaction to recognition of a stop codon. For the average reader, though, these both seem equally magic.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
For me it would have to be a Sci-Fi MMO. Such as Mechwarrior or Robotech/Macross.
Btw mechwarrior/battletech had magic...
Like actual supernatural powers.... Morgan Kell and Kai Allard Laio (I may be off on the 2nd guy) both used some kind ability through their mechs to scramble another mech's targetting systems.... we're not talking ECM here... it was like their mech hadn't existed...and weapons could not hit them.. if my memory serves me right...
I don't know if they expanded upon this later... but it was definitely treated as supernatural.
Yes I do remember that but also that was an extremely rare ability. I only know of 3 characters having that ability. Morgan Kell, Patrick Kell and Yorinaga Kurita. Not sure if there have been anymore since then. Kai was just a natual battle beast when it came to mech combat. He didn't need that ability. Kai Allard-Liao was able to defeat Morgan Kell in a training match. That ability does not have to exist in a Mechwarrior MMO.
Voted no, i realy dont need a game to be more "realistic"....i love to throw a firebal or a lightning from my fingers.
if i wanted no magic i would play call of duty or something like that i guess......no no for me its all about trolls (not forum trolls ), orcs, dragons, spiders the size of cars and the like.
Well this thread certainly took an interesting turn. Although as already stated earlier, magic and future tech could really be two ways of describing the same thing.
If we're going to draw the line like that then we're left with historical times only. Things we know are possible and have happened or do happen. "Black Plague Online", "Grunt In Alexander's Army" and "Middle Management Office Worker" don't sound particularly fascinating to me. I play games to escape reality, not relive it.
For me it would have to be a Sci-Fi MMO. Such as Mechwarrior or Robotech/Macross.
Btw mechwarrior/battletech had magic...
Like actual supernatural powers.... Morgan Kell and Kai Allard Laio (I may be off on the 2nd guy) both used some kind ability through their mechs to scramble another mech's targetting systems.... we're not talking ECM here... it was like their mech hadn't existed...and weapons could not hit them.. if my memory serves me right...
I don't know if they expanded upon this later... but it was definitely treated as supernatural.
Yes I do remember that but also that was an extremely rare ability. I only know of 3 characters having that ability. Morgan Kell, Patrick Kell and Yorinaga Kurita. Not sure if there have been anymore since then. Kai was just a natual battle beast when it came to mech combat. He didn't need that ability. Kai Allard-Liao was able to defeat Morgan Kell in a training match. That ability does not have to exist in a Mechwarrior MMO.
Don't be silly, you can't imagine all the crying that would generate? Only a couple of people could use the Force in the original Star Wars movies, but apparently everyone had to have the option in SWG. Everyone wants to be the special snowflake.
In my experience, classic fantasy is the best basis for a great and varied game experience.
Star Wars: The Old Republic, for example, misses a ***load of typical fantasy classes (such as Paladin, Bard, Monk, Necromancer/Pet Mage, and even the classic direct damage mage is missing) and basically only offers the classic four Warrior, Rogue, Cleric, Mage with some variances.
Comments
Wow...this poll totally surprised me...but in a good way! I never would have guessed. Thanks again for all those that voted.
I voted "other" because its impossible....
The "Magic" variable always exists, whether you call it magic, or the force, aether, nanobots, whatever.
Think of it in terms of healing. Nothing heals your ship faster quite like those nanobots that for some reason have a cast time or a cooldown. Nothing heals you quite as fast as magic.
Or think of it in terms of niche roles. Why are your swords glowing purple? It's because of magi--- err, I mean, it's vibrating really fast... How is it you can shoot lightning from your fingers? Magi--- errr the force! How can your ship emit a pulse that repairs my ships armor? Repair bots! How can we breathe in space? THE ENERGY OF THE UNIVERSE MAINTAINS US, which is called not-magic.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
No...when I mean no magic, there is no magic, no nano-bots, nothing like lightning shooting out of a persons fingers.
A good Victorian/Gilded age steampunk game should be able to get by without magic, so I'll vote yes.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I played EVE so .. I must not tell lies ... :-)
Cast your vote: The importance of character customisation
Who cares about magic if it is fun and polished MMO
Yes please! Give me my Mount&Blade MMO where I can play a Viking and go raid folks! Or... let me play as Celts? What about Saxons? I see no need for magic in an MMO, especially if we go for realism. Could even do with a Lord of the Rings MMO without any magic available to players, though that would raise complaints from far too many people.
We?re all dead, just say it.
I really don't think the people voting really grasp what they are voting for. They are effectively voting for Ron Paul... they are just angry at MMORPGs in general so vote for anything that is against the norm.
No magic? Really.... you guys do understand that "magic" is basically anything you have to suspend belief for (like another poster said).
That includes Eve... how does your mind stay intact while moving through what is basically a signal of some sort to your clone?? How do you control an entire ship with 1 mind? Even mechwarrior had an element of magic.
Sorry guys... that's magic. If you make an MMO completely and utterly without any suspension of belief (which Teala is what the poll should have said) you have a pretty boring game; why play it? (except for historical reasons)....
You're getting into the realm of an MMORPG called real life lol.
PS - science fiction is just a different flavor of fantasy.
Without magic means...without any magic lol
I think you are making a sweeping generalization of what magic is and isn't. I'm fairly certain Teala meant no magic, not a lack of a suspension of disbelief. Magic as in fireballs appearing from thing air and blowing up stuff.
A lack of magical abilities does not relegate a setting into realism. Take Zombies for example. Most zombie games and movies have no magic what so ever. The cause of zombification is often some type of a virus, disease, or other medical ailment. It boils down to humans vs. the waves of the walking undead, using any type of conventional weaponry to waylay said horde of zombies. People are healed through medical means. A zombie virus of some type wouldn't be considered magic.
I'll agree that Sci-Fi is a different flavor of fantasy. It has been said that technology beyond the realm of comprehension would be viewed as magic, because of the lack of understanding of how that technology truly works.
So any game with a loading screen which you have to suspend belief for has magic? That is any game in existence? I don't think there is the need to get into semantics, everyone understood what OP meant. In which sense, EVE or APB do not have magic.
I voted yes because the setting doesn't matter that much. The game can be a success or failure with any setting.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The beams of light that somehow transport ore to your ship? How about nanobots that somehow repair your ship after being hit by shells and missiles? Are they just making metal?
The only difference between Eve not being a fantasy MMO is effectively the lore and the graphics... It would be a space wizard mmo where the wizards control giant monsters they control with their mind to shoot psi lasers (please no one make this).
For me it would have to be a Sci-Fi MMO. Such as Mechwarrior or Robotech/Macross.
Oh they do lol.... Eve has "science" magic. It's like saying Warhammer 40K doesn't have magic. Just because you give a science reason for the magic to exist doesn't make it any less "magic":
Magic:
the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic.
Various other techniques = healing your ship via nanobots (looks a lot like a heal spell to me... heck you even got bubbles and resists....
Btw mechwarrior/battletech had magic...
Like actual supernatural powers.... Morgan Kell and Kai Allard Laio (I may be off on the 2nd guy) both used some kind ability through their mechs to scramble another mech's targetting systems.... we're not talking ECM here... it was like their mech hadn't existed...and weapons could not hit them.. if my memory serves me right...
I don't know if they expanded upon this later... but it was definitely treated as supernatural.
I do. Don't you? Or are you part of the other 50%? lol
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The results may be the same but the method they work by is very different. A mage casting a fireball, and someone with a napalm grenade have the same results but very different mechanics.
I can give some rational explanations for a ship responding to your mind, or the transfer or consciousness based on rules we have today. Of course we can't do it because current technology does not allow for it, but we don't deny that it is a very real and even likely possibility in the future.
This debate is about defintions. Where is the line between science and magic? Was what we called magic back in the day simply something we didn't understand and because we didn't understand it we called it magic.
Interesting debate: http://io9.com/5021701/science-versus-magic--is-there-a-difference-in-the-world-of-fiction
I like this answer best - scientific phenomena are reproducable and not neccessarily dependant on the person
"Roughly speaking, if you can mass-produce it, it's science, and if you can't, it's magic. As an example, suppose someone says she can transform lead into gold. If we can use her technique to build factories that turn lead into gold by the ton, then she's made an incredible scientific discovery. If on the other hand it's something that only she can do, and only under special conditions, then she's a magician. And I don't mean that she's a charlatan; she might actually be able to transform lead into gold. But scientific phenomena are reproducible by other investigators; they aren't dependent on a specific person.
Electricity might have seemed magical at one time in history, but it works for everyone; you don't need to have an innate talent or be descended from someone special for a light bulb to turn on which you flip a switch. It took the work of very smart people to get us to the point that we can all use electricity, but none of them were magicians, precisely because they were able to make their discovery work for everyone.
To go on at slightly greater length, the reason magic can't be mass-produced is that it usually relies on some subjective quality of the practitioner: her intense concentration, her spiritual purity, something that can't be substituted with another person or with a machine. Magic is, in a sense, evidence that the universe knows you're a person. When people say that the scientific worldview implies a cold, impersonal universe, this is what they're talking about. Magic is when the universe responds to you in a personal way."
Ulitmately science and magic be end up doing the exact same thing but to me, one is definately more objective and able to critically appraised than the other.
I would play one without magic, however I would hope there would still be some unusual mystery occuring. Think the later Ranger apprentice books - no magic, but definate mystery.
Venge
edit - although this is probably more true haha.
A fantasy author creates a monster by having a character in robes of any colour mumbling a spell, whereas the rules clearly state a science fiction writer has to put the character in white robes only, and have them mumbling something about genetic engineering and how at termination of protein synthesis, type I release factors promote hydrolysis of the peptidyl-transfer RNA connection in reaction to recognition of a stop codon. For the average reader, though, these both seem equally magic.
Yes I do remember that but also that was an extremely rare ability. I only know of 3 characters having that ability. Morgan Kell, Patrick Kell and Yorinaga Kurita. Not sure if there have been anymore since then. Kai was just a natual battle beast when it came to mech combat. He didn't need that ability. Kai Allard-Liao was able to defeat Morgan Kell in a training match. That ability does not have to exist in a Mechwarrior MMO.
Voted no, i realy dont need a game to be more "realistic"....i love to throw a firebal or a lightning from my fingers.
if i wanted no magic i would play call of duty or something like that i guess......no no for me its all about trolls (not forum trolls
), orcs, dragons, spiders the size of cars and the like.
Well this thread certainly took an interesting turn. Although as already stated earlier, magic and future tech could really be two ways of describing the same thing.
Clarke's third law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
If we're going to draw the line like that then we're left with historical times only. Things we know are possible and have happened or do happen. "Black Plague Online", "Grunt In Alexander's Army" and "Middle Management Office Worker" don't sound particularly fascinating to me. I play games to escape reality, not relive it.
Eve Online 14 day trial - Will you make your mark?
I think SWG PreCU ground game (before any jedi unlocks) could have been considered magic-free beyond the idea of calling a mount or speeder.
Don't be silly, you can't imagine all the crying that would generate? Only a couple of people could use the Force in the original Star Wars movies, but apparently everyone had to have the option in SWG. Everyone wants to be the special snowflake.
Yes.
Having magic or not doesnt define a good game, not even close.
No, definitely not.
In my experience, classic fantasy is the best basis for a great and varied game experience.
Star Wars: The Old Republic, for example, misses a ***load of typical fantasy classes (such as Paladin, Bard, Monk, Necromancer/Pet Mage, and even the classic direct damage mage is missing) and basically only offers the classic four Warrior, Rogue, Cleric, Mage with some variances.