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Why raids as means of end game? and why players think is ok?
Granrey
Member Posts: 53
I’ve playing MMO for several years now and of the things that intrigues me is who came up with the idea of raids as means of end game? and why players consider this is ok?
When I mean raids as means of end game, I’m talking about asking players to grind certain raids not only for their amusement but to get gear to later grind upper raids. In case, you don’t like those raids, you still have to grind them if you want to do the ones you really like.
Man, whoever invented this kind of end game in MMO made such big damage to the genre that will take long time to fix.
Can you imagine somebody designing a golf course for months, then spending months building it.
Then say to the players: “play this golf course for X amount of times so you can get enough marks to get to the next golf course that we are currently designing”
People play in a golf course not only to enjoy but if they wish also to get “AN SCORE” that can be compared to other players and be competitive in a regular bases vs other players or himself.
That way, you play the course for many times without getting bored because not only are you beating the course but you are also beating other players and yourself.
Again, this also makes the believe that PVE can't be competitive.
Comments
So you're suggesting MMORPGs should charge real money for the next raid content like golf courses do? And progression becomes purely a matter of being able to pay to go to the next golf course, instead of a matter of skillfully working your way through the courses?
Raiding has issues, but it's more "more people, more problems" than the structure of their progression systems.
Personally I'd prefer 5-man content to scale in difficulty with raid-style boss challenges. There are a myriad of ways that requiring 25+ people harms the experience without really adding anything (that I can't get in a 5-10 man team.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
For a lot of people the content is challenging. Until world of warcraft came along, even if you beat a raid there was a large chance that you might not beat it again next week. While this still happens in WoW as well it, doesn't occur as frequently unless you are on the bleeding edge of your guilds skill level. Also, you get to do something that many other people cannot do and might even get a cool item out of it that no one has.
Knowing that you are slaying monsters that most people only dream of or getting a rare item that only you will have. That is a competitive spirit right there.
Some linear raid/party progression is fine but imo its silly to go " ok we finished grindinh this place lets go to the next one" instead it should be "ok lets do it again but lets see if we can finish it faster or with less damage taken, etc" o.o but thats just me.
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Endgames aren't supposed to be fun. The entire concept of an endgame is something that takes players a long time to get through, without taking that much development time. The point is to keep players busy, so that you don't cancel your account when you rationally ought to, but keep paying the subscription fee instead.
Why do players think it's OK? Players mostly don't. That's why people cancel accounts. But endgames manage to fool a significant fraction of players into continuing to subscribe, and for a game company, that sure beats the retention rates from saying, "Congratulations, you've beaten the game. Now you really should quit and go play something else. As a convenience to you, we've automatically cancelled your subscription for you." That's why we get raiding endgames. It's not for gameplay. It's for business reasons.
This.
I'm not entirely sure if it's true, but I read somewhere that it has it's roots back in EQ1 in which a small percentage of hardcore players were constantly complaining about the lack of progression/things to do at endgame.
I think the tiered equipment/tiered raids started in World of Warcraft. I can't for the life of me remember where I read it, but supposedly one of the lead designers for WoW's endgame was one of those hardcore players that was complaining about endgame in EQ1, he was some big guild leader I believe.
Beyond that, games have pretty much copy&pasted WoW's formula for endgame.
edit: Couldn't find the previous articles I read all this from, but I think this is the guy it was refering to.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Alex_Afrasiabi
Co op combat games are obviously fun for many.
According to some Blizzard numbers, a tiny minority of like 2% has cleared endgame content (=raid).
You can also often read on various games' forums, that people don't like raiding at all.
So i would say that only a minority thinks it's ok. Constantly getting new 10 or 20 mans shoved down our throat is primary an idea of the industry and not really what most folks want from their game. But compared to horizontal game development it's rather cheap and easy to produce.
Very few people complete the current top tier content, but many people do try the raid content. Many people complete the raid content once it's been nerfed and is no longer the top tier content. For a great many people, raid content is fun...they just go about it in a much more casual manner over a longer period of time.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
because some players do not want PvP and normal questing at end game would be dull... who cares, let the pve crowd have their raids... I disagree with you or anyone else questioning a form of content that has been widely accepted... if your arguement was to add other objectives thats one thing but to question a structure that currently works and makes people happy is silly.
Everything I say is my opinion or personal preference. You may or may not find it useful to your cause but regardless I am entitled to it.
Old numbers. The reason is coordination and difficulty. Here are some more numbers.Sunwell ... 2%
Dragon soul normal mode 4%
dragon soul lfr 35%!!!!!!
so there is an audience for raid if it is assessible enough. Few wants to commit to it like work but will want to do it if they can play when they want to.
Raids = easy to develop = huge time sinks = no fun = carrot on a stick = keeps you subbed = $$ for the company
Do players want raids? I don't know. I personally hate raiding and this is the reason why I hate the whole endgame thing. That's why I hate paying for MMOs. That's why I have come to hate MMOs. That's why I think MMOs are not as fun as other games.
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The problem with endgame raiding isn't only that it's raiding. A raid that you only had to do once, could PUG whenever you pleased, and could easily use whatever gear you happened to have for, wouldn't be so objectionable. But it also wouldn't be enough of a timesink to qualify as endgame content. The problem is "endgame", not "raiding".
Money (real life) = Loot (game world)
Since game companies aren't paying players real money for accomplishments, loot is the reward or status marker. In golf, if you want to make the bug bucks, you have to start at the bottem as an amatuer and work your way up to become a professional player. Amatuer; low pay, Pro; big pay. In the game world, you start with the simple challenges to gain better loot and work your way up to Hard raids to get the best loot. Seems pretty much the same to me.
In the game as in the real life, you have a choice, you can work to be the best or attempt to be happy being a casual golf player. I pretty sure I have never seen an amatuer golfer walk up to the PGA and demand Pro level pay purse.
I think what most are looking for are alternatives of activities (not everyone plays golf) and that is a justified request, problem is the game companies can only employ and pay so many people to develope and they only have so many days in a year. Having 50 different activites at lvl 50 to keep players entertained is very very time consuming and costly. Eventually the tech will reach a point where development will be simpler and quicker. It just isn't here yet.
Have you read my "WoW. You Call That A Raid?" thread?
Of course no one believes you can actually do what I described there because of all the lies the industry feeds them, but it def solves the endgame problem wrt raids.
Lies all lies!!!!!! We can have that RIGHT NOW.
If that is so, detail out how a company would accomplish it ( I am assuming you are refering to the 50 activities at 50). Explain how you would finance and schedule such a task while developing and maintaining content 1-50 with resources also developing new content not just for lvl 50 but for 1-49. If you have the secret, package it up and sell it to the game companies. You'll be rich. Wait, attach my name to it too. I want in on it.
I agree with everything you say appart from the last part. SWTOR cost £200 million + that is absolutely silly money that could easily fund any level of complexity of game, all it needs is a talented development team, support from the sponsor and integrity with their vision. Anet are managing it without even banking on subs!, looks like Archeaage develoeprs are managing it. it is perfectly feasable.
Heres a sum, imagine SWTOR Cost was divided between 50 activtiies and lets say that covers 50 milion just for the core game engine as well, that leaves about 3-6 million per activity in a game! Ofc it is doable.
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Depends on what you are willing to trade. Although in a traditional themepark its not possible. I've been detailing this across like 30 threads I've made on this forum.
But ... I don't play golf.
I am not a filthy rich country club member, so I also not play golf.
I would assume he means we can have 50 shitty activities.
Problem is, players want quality activities. Thus we see games with fewer, higher-polished activities.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
First, you are using unreleased games as an example, so until we actually see it accomplished, it is just speculation.
Second, keep in mind, Bioware hasn't officially announced how much it cost to make the game, as far as I have seen, No official statement, but for the sack of argument, lets say 200 mill. I know for a fact that purchasing the Star Wars license is very expensive. Especially it being a lease expendature instead of a one time purchase. Budgeting yearly must prepare for this expense. Also, the voice acting, expense for hardware and actors is also very expensive. Both of these take a huge chunk of that 200 mil.
If Bioware had made MMO with their own Mass Effect brand and limited voice acting to only your personal story, yes that 200 mil would have gone a long ways to much additional content. But you are forgetting one thing. Time. To include the abundance of ativities people want, it would probably have extended development time another 2 years. and even if they had done that, the additional content variety, Bioware would now have 50 areas of content to keep updated. Players would chew through that content at the same rate as the normal raids. So, instead of having 20 people developing raids, you need to split your 20 people into groups attempting to make new content for 50 different activities. The time would extend exponentially, so you would need to hire 2-3 times more employees to reduce time, but you would also increase cost exponentially.
Note: I am not defending Bioware, as I would have done things differently. I am simply voicing an impartial voice for the industry. I feel that most players fail to truly understand the underworking of game development and tend to overly simplify it too much. As anything with high complexity, once you get knee deep into actually doing it, you don't realize how complex and how much unexpected situations occur.
Define shitty? Activities you don't like? Probably. Seeing as you are you.
Because some players prefer to solve HOW, instead of WHEN and WHAT
The only trouble is those players have become the focus group of most of the industry.