SWTOR is not a sandbox game. What is this thread even about if the title is already completely wrong.
This. Plus, in a well designed sandbox, the players drive the story so no need for a complex pre-determined storyline...
lol i love this saying " the Players drive the story" soo do you walk around in an mmo and narate whats going on or something? i mean talking to yourself is a sign of insanity.... you do know that right?
Sandbox games are just an excuse for the dev team to cut corners and do no real thinking about the so called world they are trying to create.
The story being referred to there is the collective group of events and actions done that write not just the players individual history but the history of the server, as well. It's one of the best gauges of how much a game leans in one direction or the other. The more similar the player stories are, the more of a themepark the game is. The more diverse the stories, the more 'sandboxy' the gameplay is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
SWTOR hasnt proved that a storyline would work in a sandbox, how did it prove that, being a themepark..?
What you seem to suggest OP, is that a storyline could work in a sandbox and have no impact on the world, since the storyline in SWTOR doesnt affect the world in the slightest? Then what would be the purpose, it would just feel tacked on for no reason.
Besides, doing an advanced, fully functional sandbox right is hard enough without putting resources on adding a tacked on storyline for no real reason.
This is what most people think when it comes to sandbox MMOs because they tend to have no content built into them. Ignoring the other point that they're usually made from small developers and are really buggy, usually the games have no content.
What SWG did was a really kool idea where you'd have themeparks dotted around the planets for quest content. In it's later life it had quest content planets only which I really liked the idea of but sadly it came with the CU and the NGE. The problem with SWG was the content came too little too late and the game was a buggy mess. However it still provides a lot of amazing ideas for future MMO developers, it's just a shame that no one will look at the game and realise it had some really amazing ideas.
The problem is atm you either have theme park or sandbox, people don't seem to believe you can have the best of both worlds.
This is what most people think when it comes to sandbox MMOs because they tend to have no content built into them. Ignoring the other point that they're usually made from small developers and are really buggy, usually the games have no content.
What SWG did was a really kool idea where you'd have themeparks dotted around the planets for quest content. In it's later life it had quest content planets only which I really liked the idea of but sadly it came with the CU and the NGE. The problem with SWG was the content came too little too late and the game was a buggy mess. However it still provides a lot of amazing ideas for future MMO developers, it's just a shame that no one will look at the game and realise it had some really amazing ideas.
The problem is atm you either have theme park or sandbox, people don't seem to believe you can have the best of both worlds.
depends on what you consider 'content'.
if 5 or 6 layers of crafting complexity and interdependence is not content then yeah...to me however that is what I look for, f**k the story I have books I havent read yet I dont have time for computer stories.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
That is a good experience that comes naturally from a more open ended player driven MMO. However there is no reason why you cannot have story mixed in with this type of MMO. It would be so easy to put lots of quest content in EVE that is really story driven like SWTOR. With walking in stations you could even have cutscenes inbetween each mission objective.
Yet you'd have the ability to do all that and then go out into 0.0 to do player driven content.
SWTOR is not a sandbox game. What is this thread even about if the title is already completely wrong.
This. Plus, in a well designed sandbox, the players drive the story so no need for a complex pre-determined storyline...
lol i love this saying " the Players drive the story" soo do you walk around in an mmo and narate whats going on or something? i mean talking to yourself is a sign of insanity.... you do know that right?
Sandbox games are just an excuse for the dev team to cut corners and do no real thinking about the so called world they are trying to create.
First off SWOTR is one of the most controlled, driven, lead around by the nose, Adventure's Day Care games that have been released in the last few years. It is so NOT a Sadnbox, I wonder if the this is a feeble attempt to Troll us.
Sandbox when used to describe MMOs implies... Not being lead around by the Developers, Not sitting back and watching Cinematic, Not playing the same exact way as everyone else, Not following the trail of carefully laid out quest along the carefully built train tracks to Max level.
I am sorry that you have never had the experience of a Sandbox MMO where actually had your decisions, your actions and your character become a unique story. Well made Sandbox MMOs give the players enough impact on the world and each other so that Epic adventure, Drama, Conspiracy, Conquest, etc.. just happens due to Human Nature and not because it is dev scripted so that everyone can have the exact same contrived experience.
To help folks understand... The reason Sandbox / Hardcore MMO players make such a stink on the forums is because being part of a real non scripted story is amazing and that single experience is something that modern MMOs have failed to deliver.
lol.. having a desert in a game doesnt mean its a 'sandbox' which is about the only thing sand related in the game.... i think tbh, that the OP genuinely doesnt know what a sandbox game is..
Until I read the post, I was with you but if you actually bother to read the post you see where S/he went with it and it starts to make sense. Key point being you have to read it. You didn't obviously, so all those comments you said about the OP...go grab a mirror, look at yourself, and repeat them to yourself over and over again.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
That is a good experience that comes naturally from a more open ended player driven MMO. However there is no reason why you cannot have story mixed in with this type of MMO. It would be so easy to put lots of quest content in EVE that is really story driven like SWTOR. With walking in stations you could even have cutscenes inbetween each mission objective.
Yet you'd have the ability to do all that and then go out into 0.0 to do player driven content.
Yes but what would be the point? All you would do is seperate your player base among those that interact with other players and those that sit and just do the "story" quests like if the game was a single player rpg. BTW, cutscenes between in every mission would get old REAL FAST!!!
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
EQ was more of a "sandbox" than SWTOR.. Using that word in the same sentence as SWTOR is almost begging to get trolled hard..
See, scripted stories and sandboxes kinda clash.. On one hand, you have your story laid out for you and you walk from one area to another to find out what happens to you.. And on the other hand, you stumble into a world where you decide what happens to you..
That is a good experience that comes naturally from a more open ended player driven MMO. However there is no reason why you cannot have story mixed in with this type of MMO. It would be so easy to put lots of quest content in EVE that is really story driven like SWTOR. With walking in stations you could even have cutscenes inbetween each mission objective.
Yet you'd have the ability to do all that and then go out into 0.0 to do player driven content.
Yes but what would be the point? All you would do is seperate your player base among those that interact with other players and those that sit and just do the "story" quests like if the game was a single player rpg. BTW, cutscenes between in every mission would get old REAL FAST!!!
I can see the intersection between the two player types. totally. Say for example the clan needs to get XYZ to craft ABC, some of the elements of that craft can only come from doing the quests, other parts from more 'group' events.
so I dont see an issue with the two different play styles working in one MMO.
What I DO see as an issue however is EVER FORCING A FRIGGIN CUTSCENES ON ME. godd*m I hate that...how insulting it is to not give the player at least the option of not watching a cutscene!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
SWTOR to me is like those natural disaster films, like 2012.
I know what the premise of the film is else i wouldn't have watched it and so, as usual, the start is the 'intro' which every film seems to have:
The down and out astranged father with the bitch of an ex-wife, fucks up seeing the kids, but then some mad crap happens, no one believes him, but he befriends a politician/scientist based on his amatuer research...
...literally every fecking film follows this beginning plot, so now i skip the first 20 mins of most of these films and i know what happened even then.
So, before i lose my thread of thought, SWTOR basically like that. Cut to the chase, i know everyone watching these cutscenes is having the same IDENTICAL experience as me, so instead, let me make my own story and bugger off. I'm not the lone adventuer, look, theres two guys next to me talking to you too.
That...is why i don't like cutscenes, artificial and don't immerse me at all. That is all
I'd rather the developers spend their time and money on gameplay, immersion and depth. The players will then do just fine at creating their own story.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
To everyone lambasting the OP for claiming SWTOR is a sandbox game...
RTFPost
Damn you beat me to it. I was just about to say the same thing. To everyone above who is saying "but....but.....SWTOR is not a sandbox mmo"......you really need to stop replying to the title of a post and actually read its contents as well
HE IS NOT SAYING SWTOR IS A SANDBOX MMO
Correct but he is saying that a dev driven storyline format a-la-swtor could work in a real sandbox game. My point is that in a well designed sandbox, you don't need it.
For you. I think he's trying to allude to the still being conceived idea of a hybrid, or sandpark if you will. This year will define that, I'm sure, but until then, posts like the OPs are going to come about. I've played pure sandbox games and I have to agree with the OP, I want story to go with it too. I think they DO need it, for me to enjoy them more. SWG is s prime example. It's early launch months were mostly about grinding and RP, there were no themeparks yet or quest lines, just mission running. I felt it was a horrible design even though the game had a ton of tools to do other things and make my own story . Which is fine, don't eliminate that. However, some days I just want to be entertained not come home from a day job to "work" in my game of choice like a night job.
Comments
The story being referred to there is the collective group of events and actions done that write not just the players individual history but the history of the server, as well. It's one of the best gauges of how much a game leans in one direction or the other. The more similar the player stories are, the more of a themepark the game is. The more diverse the stories, the more 'sandboxy' the gameplay is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
SWTOR hasnt proved that a storyline would work in a sandbox, how did it prove that, being a themepark..?
What you seem to suggest OP, is that a storyline could work in a sandbox and have no impact on the world, since the storyline in SWTOR doesnt affect the world in the slightest? Then what would be the purpose, it would just feel tacked on for no reason.
Besides, doing an advanced, fully functional sandbox right is hard enough without putting resources on adding a tacked on storyline for no real reason.
This is how you do story in a sandbox MMO: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Great_War
This is what most people think when it comes to sandbox MMOs because they tend to have no content built into them. Ignoring the other point that they're usually made from small developers and are really buggy, usually the games have no content.
What SWG did was a really kool idea where you'd have themeparks dotted around the planets for quest content. In it's later life it had quest content planets only which I really liked the idea of but sadly it came with the CU and the NGE. The problem with SWG was the content came too little too late and the game was a buggy mess. However it still provides a lot of amazing ideas for future MMO developers, it's just a shame that no one will look at the game and realise it had some really amazing ideas.
The problem is atm you either have theme park or sandbox, people don't seem to believe you can have the best of both worlds.
depends on what you consider 'content'.
if 5 or 6 layers of crafting complexity and interdependence is not content then yeah...to me however that is what I look for, f**k the story I have books I havent read yet I dont have time for computer stories.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
That is a good experience that comes naturally from a more open ended player driven MMO. However there is no reason why you cannot have story mixed in with this type of MMO. It would be so easy to put lots of quest content in EVE that is really story driven like SWTOR. With walking in stations you could even have cutscenes inbetween each mission objective.
Yet you'd have the ability to do all that and then go out into 0.0 to do player driven content.
First off SWOTR is one of the most controlled, driven, lead around by the nose, Adventure's Day Care games that have been released in the last few years. It is so NOT a Sadnbox, I wonder if the this is a feeble attempt to Troll us.
Sandbox when used to describe MMOs implies... Not being lead around by the Developers, Not sitting back and watching Cinematic, Not playing the same exact way as everyone else, Not following the trail of carefully laid out quest along the carefully built train tracks to Max level.
I am sorry that you have never had the experience of a Sandbox MMO where actually had your decisions, your actions and your character become a unique story. Well made Sandbox MMOs give the players enough impact on the world and each other so that Epic adventure, Drama, Conspiracy, Conquest, etc.. just happens due to Human Nature and not because it is dev scripted so that everyone can have the exact same contrived experience.
To help folks understand... The reason Sandbox / Hardcore MMO players make such a stink on the forums is because being part of a real non scripted story is amazing and that single experience is something that modern MMOs have failed to deliver.
lol.. having a desert in a game doesnt mean its a 'sandbox' which is about the only thing sand related in the game.... i think tbh, that the OP genuinely doesnt know what a sandbox game is..
This is like putting a tv in a sandbox and playing clone wars cartoons for the kids.
Could you do it sure but it seems completely counter productive to sit in a sandbox only to watch tv.
A sandbox is about the elements in that picture.
Interaction with the world and other players. Making your own story. The freedom to do what you want with the tools given to you.
SWTOR is as far from a sandbox game as you can get. Not one sandbox MMO has a linear story because it's the opposite of what those games try to do.
In short adding a linear story to a sandbox is a contradiction to everything a sandbox game would offer.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Until I read the post, I was with you but if you actually bother to read the post you see where S/he went with it and it starts to make sense. Key point being you have to read it. You didn't obviously, so all those comments you said about the OP...go grab a mirror, look at yourself, and repeat them to yourself over and over again.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Yes but what would be the point? All you would do is seperate your player base among those that interact with other players and those that sit and just do the "story" quests like if the game was a single player rpg. BTW, cutscenes between in every mission would get old REAL FAST!!!
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Also wasting dev time to make it story driven would affect the depth of the sandbox component.
So...you can't have a theme park (linear story) within a sand box? is that what you are saying?
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
EQ was more of a "sandbox" than SWTOR.. Using that word in the same sentence as SWTOR is almost begging to get trolled hard..
See, scripted stories and sandboxes kinda clash.. On one hand, you have your story laid out for you and you walk from one area to another to find out what happens to you.. And on the other hand, you stumble into a world where you decide what happens to you..
Finding out =/= Deciding
I can see the intersection between the two player types. totally. Say for example the clan needs to get XYZ to craft ABC, some of the elements of that craft can only come from doing the quests, other parts from more 'group' events.
so I dont see an issue with the two different play styles working in one MMO.
What I DO see as an issue however is EVER FORCING A FRIGGIN CUTSCENES ON ME. godd*m I hate that...how insulting it is to not give the player at least the option of not watching a cutscene!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I read the OP, then got through about one page. Lol'd at all the people who clearly didn't read shit and got bored.
Anyway, OP is correct. No reason why you can't have a solid storyline set up within a greater virtual world.
That said, if I really want a story, I'll read a book. I play MMO's for the 'world' aspect. Or rather, I used to, before WoW came along.
I also agree with one of the posters above. I really am not too fond of cutscenes in games in general.
Obviously you didn't read either since you missed the part were most of us get where he was coming from but still don't agree...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
SWTOR to me is like those natural disaster films, like 2012.
I know what the premise of the film is else i wouldn't have watched it and so, as usual, the start is the 'intro' which every film seems to have:
The down and out astranged father with the bitch of an ex-wife, fucks up seeing the kids, but then some mad crap happens, no one believes him, but he befriends a politician/scientist based on his amatuer research...
...literally every fecking film follows this beginning plot, so now i skip the first 20 mins of most of these films and i know what happened even then.
So, before i lose my thread of thought, SWTOR basically like that. Cut to the chase, i know everyone watching these cutscenes is having the same IDENTICAL experience as me, so instead, let me make my own story and bugger off. I'm not the lone adventuer, look, theres two guys next to me talking to you too.
That...is why i don't like cutscenes, artificial and don't immerse me at all. That is all
TOR is not a sandbox.
end of thread.
I'd rather the developers spend their time and money on gameplay, immersion and depth. The players will then do just fine at creating their own story.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Don't agree with this at all.
There's no reason that a sandbox game can't also have a story line. You don't have to make that story line mandatory you know...
You don't agree that a virtual world can contain storylines within?
K.
No, I am just saying that a true, player driven virtual world doesn't need one.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
For you. I think he's trying to allude to the still being conceived idea of a hybrid, or sandpark if you will. This year will define that, I'm sure, but until then, posts like the OPs are going to come about. I've played pure sandbox games and I have to agree with the OP, I want story to go with it too. I think they DO need it, for me to enjoy them more. SWG is s prime example. It's early launch months were mostly about grinding and RP, there were no themeparks yet or quest lines, just mission running. I felt it was a horrible design even though the game had a ton of tools to do other things and make my own story . Which is fine, don't eliminate that. However, some days I just want to be entertained not come home from a day job to "work" in my game of choice like a night job.
And that has what to do with the OP? Can you direct me to the part where he said a virtual world 'needs' a storyline?