I think people are unfairly crapping all over World of Warcraft because seemingly every MMORPG dev is trying to copy or take inspiration from it. That's not WoW's fault, that's everyone else's. As a game dev, which route do you go? The route that's gotten maybe a million sales at most, or the route that's gotten 12 million sales at most? Granted 1 million isn't bad, but that's not a game that a dev studio is going to put a lot of money behind. The Old Republic couldn't possibly take risks with such a massive development budget for example.
I've played WoW for 6 or 7 years. Most of that time spent was raiding. There was something very cool about raiding with 39 other people on Vent, having fun, joking around and talking while playing. Then they scaled it back to 25 people and it was still fun. My last raids were in 10-mans and still as fun as ever with a casual-minded group that didn't suck, and we joked around plenty while playing. It was an interesting combination of social interaction and gaming that I haven't had before(and probably never will again). It's much different than getting on a shooter and hearing nothing but trash talk and trolling and stupidness, it was more like having a group of real life friends gaming together.
I enjoyed the theme park-yness of WoW because I'm somebody that enjoys some focus in a game. As an out-of-game example, I ordered a package of 11 yoga workouts. It came with a book about nutrition and a bunch of other stuff. Outlined in the book, it gives a 13-week outlook on which workouts to do on what days, 13 weeks for beginners, 13 weeks for intermediates and 13 weeks for advanced. If there was no guide like this, I don't think I'd be as dedicated to it as I am now. I like following guidelines and things like this, rather than making my own rules and discovering things.
That's not to say that I haven't enjoyed a sandbox world. I have very fond memories of Graal Online when it was new at the time, and it allowed you to build onto its game world and make scripted events and quests and that sort of thing. I believe it had to be approved by the folks that ran it before it was actually put into the game world but you could at least build it client-side for offline play. The game had no direction. It was basically The Legend Of Zelda: A Link To The Past Online, filled with heart containers and items scattered around the game world and you had to explore(or read up online) on where to find everything. It had a unique PvP system, sort of like karma where if you didn't attack anybody, eventually your player name would get lighter and lighter until it was gold and no players could hit you. If you PvP a lot and kill players, your name would get darker and darker and you'd have to wait longer to reach that unhittable state. I was massively addicted to Graal at the time, I suppose partly because I love the NES and SNES so much(still do).
Now Playing: Mission Against Terror, Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Minecraft, and the piano. =3
The most expensive part of game design: Art assets
Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try. Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.
The most expensive part of game design: Art assets
Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try. Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.
I think the first company that builds a decent engine not some buggy alpha state engine and gets user created content right will have a big hit on their hands. It just has so many positives in that it allows the devlopers to focus there main goals while allowing your user base to fill in the gaps. It also can satisfy the urge to build as one thing pc gaming has proved if nothing else is user created content can rival that of the devoloper if given the right tools.
Take a look at tor, and for those who are playing it, one of the bigger complaints is the amount of warzones in the game. If Bioware created a tool that allowed people to construct and submit their own warzones. Then Bioware picks one every week, and its added to the rotation, at the end of the week its voted on and if its popular it stays in the rotation if not its phased out. Bioware would never need to create another warzone again and even if they pick a horrible one that noone likes its only in the game for a week.
This kind of system would benefit a sandbox even more (not creating warzones or instanced anything but user created content in general) one of the bigger complaints we seen from most of the newer sandboxes is lack of content and to large a focus on zerg ffa pvp with little else to do in them. Allowing the player base to create content for these titles allows the devolopers to focus more on bug fixes and new features while there world gets content generated for free.
If nobody is making your dream game, make it yourself.
Making games is hella hard, especially if you are poor.
I never claimed it was easy. But I think that whenever a person is feeling down about the state of worlds out there, it helps to sit down and actually think clearly about the obstacles and scale of work/organization required to make one of these behemoths happen.
THAT is a piece of bad, borderline on absurb, advice.
A modern video game, even an indie one, needs a team (programming, art, graphics, deisgn ..) and lots of technical know-how. Assuming a random player would be anything close to have the skill set to make a full featured game, abate a good one, is just totally silly.
I think the OP needs to get a life. There are MANY alternatives of entertainment.
Brooding over some video games that may or may not happen .. is a waste of time.
BTW, i did not read the whole thing, i am one of those who are happy with the current state of themepark MMOs. In fact, if i am not entertained, i won't even be participating in a MMO forum. There is no point. Life has so many entertaining activities.
TL; DR - Rant about the current state of MMOs. If you're currently happy with your theme park MMO, this is not for you.
I've been a lurker here at MMORPG.com for as long as I can remember. In that time, I have learned one hugely important fact; I am not alone. MMORPG.com is essentially a home for the homeless; a refuge for those of us that are waiting for that perfect game that never comes.
Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions to the rule. There are hundreds, if not thousands of MMORPG.com readers who have found what they consider to be their perfect game. To those people, I recommend you stop reading, and go back to grinding for gear in (INSERT THEMEPARK GAME NAME HERE). The rest of us are waiting; waiting endlessly for the next game to come along and let us down, only to be followed up by another to come and excrete all over our dreams once again.
I've been playing MMOs for as long as I can remember; certainly all of my late-teen and adult life. I'm not particularly 'hardcore' per-se; I'm 28 years old, married, I run two websites and work for myself from home as a programmer. This does, of course give me a reasonable amount of free time at my PC. FPS games don't cut it for me, and neither do MOBAs. I appreciate both of them for what they are, and actually play them from time to time, too. What I want from a game is simple. I want an MMORPG, in the traditional sense of the term. I want freedom. Freedom from the stresses of daily life, freedom to go anywhere and explore, freedom to fight the guy that's stealing my kills, and freedom to declare war on him and his friends if I should so desire. What I want, is a sandbox, and I am not alone.
My history of MMOs is somewhat sandbox heavy. Back when I was 16 years old, I first discovered Ultima Online, and I played it on a 200Mhz Pentium pile of crap. Still, it ran, and it ran well. I loved that game; it had everything I wanted and a whole lot more. Let's face it though, for the past 8 years (at least), it's looked like crap. I simply had to move on. Nobody wants to play a game that's older than a fair percentage of the members of this forum.
In 2002, I found Neocron. Neocron is a game many of you have probably never heard of, or if you have, you've never experienced its endgame...and what an endgame it was. I played Neocron's endgame for a few years alongside SW:G. It was so far ahead of its time that many of its features went totally un-noticed by the rest of the world, and certainly amongst MMORPG fans. It had multiple factions, inter-faction clan warfare, semi-open PvP, player looting, a punishment system, NPC cops that shot criminals on sight, player housing with full sandbox placement of furniture, drugs which enhanced performance, a huge open world without quests, flying vehicles, ground vehicles, swimming, an epic crafting system and territorial warfare which pitted rival clans against one another for control of outposts which earned revenue. Oh, and one of the best twitch combat systems I've ever had the pleasure of using. /breathe.
I just listed all the functionality of a fantastic, modern, 3D sandbox game. My perfect game. But why did it do so badly? Well, that's simple; semi-incompetent developers (most of which have left the company now) and a lack of funding/advertising. Bugs were simply never fixed, and version 2.0 of the game essentially killed many of the aspects which made it such a fun and interesting game almost a decade ago.
Since the relative death of Neocron's moderate success, I have lurked these forums, seeking out a replacement. When I first came to these forums, like many of you, I was baffled by the staggering amount of MMO games available. Simply put, I was overwhelmed - the perfect game simply HAD to be here. The sad part is, I've bought, downloaded and tried a huge proportion of them, including every major release you can name since WoW in 2003, to SWTOR in 2011. I even bought Darkfall, Mortal Online, Earthrise and Xsyon, hoping that one of these titles might have fill that empty sandbox void that Neocron and Ultima Online left inside of me all those years ago. Sadly, what I got instead was a proverbial bitch slap in the guise of great ideas, poor implementation and often shoddy, unfinished work. Darkfall came the closest for me, but that was utterly ruined by its ridiculous levelling system and grind, which forced people to AFK macro-power-level. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIXED BY NOW.
So, to my point. I seem to spend far, far more time waiting for the next MMO to come along and disappoint me than I do actually playing MMO games. That's sad, in it self, and says a hell of a lot for an industry which could be so much more than it is right now. Currently, I'm eagerly awaiting Diablo III, Archeage and Planetside 2, and I have a close eye on Tera and TSW. Which of those games will let me down? All of them? three of them? Who knows, but I'm almost certain we'll all be back here in twelve months time, waiting.
Hear me, developers. Stop holding our hands like we're mindless, merry little morons. Stop feeding us linear quest after linear quest, and forcing us to grind dungeons for PvP gear. In fact, forget you ever played WoW and forget everything that it taught you. That's right, everything. Build a virtual world, from scratch that we can play in, and ultimately control as the inhabitants of said world. Is that really too much to ask?
This industry should be full of game companies competing for our business, each trying to entice players away from their current, deserved MMO addiction. What we have in reality is companies feeding us the same old regurgitated crap, time and time again; each of them hoping for a somewhat moderate user retention level so that they can pay their whopping development bills, which were invariably racked up on the wrong areas of game development.
Theme parks, I hate you.
WoW, I hate you.
Devs, you're doing it wrong.
/end cynical rant.
I approve of this message.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I made a post similiar to this (not nearly as detailed) about a week ago, and most of the responses were either "I agree" or "that will never be more than a niche genre".
I guess people like you and me are in the minority
The most expensive part of game design: Art assets
Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try. Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.
But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread.
Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.
We also need to remember that Notch (with ) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.
Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.
Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.
There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.
The most expensive part of game design: Art assets
Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try. Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.
But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread.
Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.
We also need to remember that Notch (with ) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.
Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.
Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.
There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.
I can make a text based mmo with php and mysql quite easily, even maps using image maps and same for buildings and crap. But that is nothing like creating an mmo with 3d or even 2d graphics and animation.
The most expensive part of game design: Art assets
Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try. Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.
But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread.
Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.
We also need to remember that Notch (with ) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.
Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.
Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.
There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.
I can make a text based mmo with php and mysql quite easily, even maps using image maps and same for buildings and crap. But that is nothing like creating an mmo with 3d or even 2d graphics and animation.
Yes, but since the OP left UO because of the aging graphics, i didn't think thats relevant at all. I'm talking, as always, in the context of the thread.
What people here usually say is that they do not want MUDs (as i stated before, thats an obtainable goal) but they want a good looking sandbox/game with modern graphics and gameplay.
Then coming in and saying "just make it yourself" is completely silly.
If only the 'waiting' actually were subscribing and supporting this industry.
The 'silent' crowd doesn't show up anywhere and companies can not define them or know how many there are.
Preaching over the internet is fine but to put actual $$$, well, make one yourself or support one that's the cloest to your ideal MMO.
Otherwise, why should anyone listen to you?
Firstly, I do support this industry; more so than most I bet. You've clearly not read my post properly. I have purchased pretty much every MMO to be released over the past 5 years, and I am currently subbed to 6, including those closest to that which I consider to be my ideal MMO.
The 'make one yourself' argument is getting old. I'm a Java/PHP developer that develops websites and software for smartphones, I am no game developer. Even if I was, I wouldn't have the time to put into the project with all the side businesses I run.
The fact is, there are always impressive looking games on the horizon, many of which continue to let us down in a big way. The industry looked so bright back in 2002, and here we are, a decade later, still recovering from the WoW effect.
Why should anyone listen to me? Well, why shouldn't they?
I can see where you're coming from but if there were ever a case of being part of the problem and not part of the solution you're it. Developers follow the money and you're sending mixed messages.
I love this ludicrous assertion that we should be spending our money to "support" an industry that doesn't even provide us with a game we enjoy playing. I speak with my money by putting it into things I actually enjoy. I'm not going to search for and subscribe to some half-baked game that is somewhat similar to what I want, but not enough to be worth playing. THAT is sending mixed message if anything is.
At any rate, we are seeing a bit of a paradigm change right now, and I thank SWTOR for it. I think almost *everyone*, including Bioware's competitors expected TOR to be a huge winner. You saw it in all of the reviews that game out a week after launch talking about how this game was a 90%+ amazing mmo when clearly it is not, and it has major problems on more levels than I care to think about anymore.
Since SWTOR is not the 'wow-killer" the industry seemingly thought it would be, I think people are starting to get a clue that there is no such thing. Any game developer who is thinking they are going to see anything more than 1 million players subbing to their game is out of their minds. I think it's time everyone gets back to reality and realizes that an MMO game should be honored to have 500,000 dedicated players, and that should be a strong measure of business success. If they get more, then good for them. If they pull down 1 or 2 million players, then their game is an off-the-charts success. WoW was an anomaly, a perfect storm of timing and events, and while we may see another one happen in the future, you can bet winners like that will be no less than a decade apart from each other.
Does anyone think CCP is hurting for money with 300,000 (or so) players? Do the math on that with a $15 sub fee. As a business owner myself, I would be crapping my pants to have that kind of monthly money coming in, and they have enough money and backing that they are still releasing free expansions to EVE every year, getting ready to release DUST, and they are working on WoD. I personally believe that CCP has the most realistic business model in the whole MMO industry. This isn't to say that there will be no wild successes to come, but to build a game with the goal of five or ten million subscribers in mind is completely unrealistic.
I believe developers need to get back to competing with each other on featurees and start looking more into niche-type markets for their MMOs rather than trying to go head to head with each other in some insane bid to rach ten million subscribers with a mediocre clone game. They should find something to make their own and build a dedicated core of players who will stay with the game for years rather than months, as seems to be the norm today with these uninspiring offerings. It's time to get real.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
The most expensive part of game design: Art assets
Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try. Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.
But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread.
Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.
We also need to remember that Notch (with ) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.
Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.
Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.
There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.
I can make a text based mmo with php and mysql quite easily, even maps using image maps and same for buildings and crap. But that is nothing like creating an mmo with 3d or even 2d graphics and animation.
Yes, but since the OP left UO because of the aging graphics, i didn't think thats relevant at all. I'm talking, as always, in the context of the thread.
What people here usually say is that they do not want MUDs (as i stated before, thats an obtainable goal) but they want a good looking sandbox/game with modern graphics and gameplay.
Then coming in and saying "just make it yourself" is completely silly.
I was agreeing with you and offering my own experience to back it up.
Meh I really REALLY hate the thing about this site where people cant seem to cut the part of what ever they are wanting to reply to out of the message so you get an entire screen of entire posts quoted right after the other. Anyway to reply to the guy oo 2 pages ago or so that said my previous post was pretty much null because i have never done any kind of game design.
On the contrary i have done quite a bit of research as well as practical use of game engines such as
I have tried several but this is the one i find the easiest to use as well as the most efficent for someone like myself who has little to no artistic skill and basic coding skills so far. Even with this limitation i have been quite easily to follow and complete several shall we say ... tutorial projects...
Have MANY MANY high quality training videos as well as the MMO training series i was telling you about in my previous post.
Now as i have said these things are very time consuming but completely possible as i have completed several of the tutorials myself and have learned quite a bit about c# and the way games function. I am by no means a master game designer or programmer or artist BUT i have finished and everything i have finished was quite playable.
The problem i have is that if someone makes a grandiose claim that anyone can make a MMO for little cash ( if you make your own art) is that im some how i dont know..... underappreciating you or something with your elitest view. Kinda like the way people that use this
which completely open source and can do just about anything the previous can.
My conclusion is that the only reason we do not see more inde games is that i think it boils down to a simple reason.
Game development = lots of time and some cash for assets
People with the cash to buy what they need weather that be code or assets do not have the time do make a MMO
People with the time to make an MMO do not have the cash flow to afford the things they need.
Now if you make cash and give up your job or what ever it is you do to get the cash to make a game you dont have that cash flow anymore so you end up in the second .. enough time but no money
if you give up time to make money you end up back in the first stage so its kind of like a vicious circle you get stuck in lol.
If nobody is making your dream game, make it yourself.
Making games is hella hard, especially if you are poor.
I never claimed it was easy. But I think that whenever a person is feeling down about the state of worlds out there, it helps to sit down and actually think clearly about the obstacles and scale of work/organization required to make one of these behemoths happen.
THAT is a piece of bad, borderline on absurb, advice.
A modern video game, even an indie one, needs a team (programming, art, graphics, deisgn ..) and lots of technical know-how. Assuming a random player would be anything close to have the skill set to make a full featured game, abate a good one, is just totally silly.
The alternative being to shout on forums demanding someone else do all the work for you? What I'm asking is for people like the original poster to stop for a moment and really analyze what they are asking for.
Do I believe that the OP would actually succeed in achieving his dream game by following my advice? No. But I think the journey, however short, would be helpful in gaining some appreciation of the scale of what is being asked for. And every once in a blue moon, people prove me wrong and do the impossible.
I come from the pencil-and-paper era, where if you didn't like a rulebook, you simply sat down, rolled up your sleeves and wrote one of your own. We MMO gamers have become too passive for my tastes: all consumption, no production. We are not entitled to anything but what we make for ourselves. The scale of an MMO is enormous - the number of different moving parts that all need be functional and polished is enormous. Of course it's far, far more than a single individual can achieve. But the same is true of Linux, of wikipedia, of any number of giant collaborative projects that exist out there that would be absurd to attempt if you just start by looking at the finished product.
The most expensive part of game design: Art assets
Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try. Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.
But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread.
Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.
We also need to remember that Notch (with ) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.
Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.
Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.
There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.
I can make a text based mmo with php and mysql quite easily, even maps using image maps and same for buildings and crap. But that is nothing like creating an mmo with 3d or even 2d graphics and animation.
Yes, but since the OP left UO because of the aging graphics, i didn't think thats relevant at all. I'm talking, as always, in the context of the thread.
What people here usually say is that they do not want MUDs (as i stated before, thats an obtainable goal) but they want a good looking sandbox/game with modern graphics and gameplay.
Then coming in and saying "just make it yourself" is completely silly.
I was agreeing with you and offering my own experience to back it up.
Sorry, i was coming from that "inclusion thread" rather loaded and defensive.
I spent several years learning all the different aspects of game design, as i didn't know what career i wanted to go into from Uni within IT/Design and i also wanted to know how things were done.
With todays open source engines you can use, MMO engines even (for free i have found), the rest is just something someone can do if they are willing to spend the years into it.
Cost? F' all. I can do my own models, animation, code, textures, have servers, level design, lighting, sound. All that remains is the net code, which to be honest i think i could pick up in time, as i manage networks, servers, code and everything else inbetween.
Has anyone seen the FREE engines available? Do you know how EASY it is to make a game mod like counter-strike was made? Well the open source engines available now offer you just that, you just need to put the time in learning how everything works and do it yourself.
I started in level design in 90's, then you want to customise all the models, their scripts, the textures, the animation, the UI and maybe it's just me, but that's just what i did.
I was thinking today funnily enough about starting my own project to keep myself occupied and setting up a small design/CAD business on side of my full-time job, but maybe the creativity involved in TRYING to make a game from the ground up is much more appealing.
What people don't realise is, the big games that use other peoples engines, it's like making a car without having to design the engine, rest is tweaking, aesthetics, performance, design.
But i am interested to hear what would actually cost me money in the above? Engine free, art assets i make, coding i do (note: The bulk is already in the engine, rest is your unique assets and scripts), servers aren't an issue, databases, project management, designing the website even.
I'm not being sarcastic, i am genuinely unsure why people are saying it costs alot of money to make a small indie online game...unless..
You haven't managed to learn how to do things yourself. Several years of manuals, tutorials, videos, college, Uni, practice, practice... time > money in this case. I would need someone as an extra pair of hands to speed it up and to write more complex code and that's about it. I'll get flamed by someone who will claim to be an AAA developer, but i am confused about the theory of high cost? Note: Not an AAA game, a basic MMO on an existing engine.
It will be awhile until we see anything that is playable but being a part of the community from the ground up will be enjoyable.
Pathfinder Online has all the markings of a truly next-gen sandbox!
While I wait for Pathfinder Online I will play Archeage if we ever get a NA release date.
But yes I understand you frustrations, I to started playing UO 14 years ago and still resin from time to time but it's just not the same as it once was in it's prime.
I'm also done with Themepark mmo's. I enjoyed my experiences with them over the years but they all pale in comparison to the quality and depth of UO.
Check out Pathfinder Online and read Ryan Danceys blogs and posts, he really does seem to get it and has a vast amount of experience in sanbox games (3d and PnP).
There are hundreds of thousands of players in the same boat as you and people get it. Trying to beat wow in the themepark game I think is almost over. We should see a major shift in development of mmo's in the few years.
Sandbox and quality virtual worlds are coming back in style!!
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
I spent several years learning all the different aspects of game design, as i didn't know what career i wanted to go into from Uni within IT/Design and i also wanted to know how things were done.
With todays open source engines you can use, MMO engines even (for free i have found), the rest is just something someone can do if they are willing to spend the years into it.
Cost? F' all. I can do my own models, animation, code, textures, have servers, level design, lighting, sound. All that remains is the net code, which to be honest i think i could pick up in time, as i manage networks, servers, code and everything else inbetween.
Has anyone seen the FREE engines available? Do you know how EASY it is to make a game mod like counter-strike was made? Well the open source engines available now offer you just that, you just need to put the time in learning how everything works and do it yourself.
I started in level design in 90's, then you want to customise all the models, their scripts, the textures, the animation, the UI and maybe it's just me, but that's just what i did.
I was thinking today funnily enough about starting my own project to keep myself occupied and setting up a small design/CAD business on side of my full-time job, but maybe the creativity involved in TRYING to make a game from the ground up is much more appealing.
What people don't realise is, the big games that use other peoples engines, it's like making a car without having to design the engine, rest is tweaking, aesthetics, performance, design.
But i am interested to hear what would actually cost me money in the above? Engine free, art assets i make, coding i do (note: The bulk is already in the engine, rest is your unique assets and scripts), servers aren't an issue, databases, project management, designing the website even.
I'm not being sarcastic, i am genuinely unsure why people are saying it costs alot of money to make a small indie online game...unless..
You haven't managed to learn how to do things yourself. Several years of manuals, tutorials, videos, college, Uni, practice, practice... time > money in this case. I would need someone as an extra pair of hands to speed it up and to write more complex code and that's about it. I'll get flamed by someone who will claim to be an AAA developer, but i would i am confused about the theory of high cost?
Time. It will cost you Time.
Time a regular functioning human with no fallback does not have.
Or, respectively, the game would come out in 10 years.
You are not able to do everything yourself. Period. If you do, its going to look shit and play shit.
Because you will make mistakes in modeling that an experienced game-modeler wouldn't make, and you would optimize textures wrong because you don't know how.
You can't be an expert in everything.
Not
Fucking
Possible
What you would release is complete garbage with garbage code that would probably go for 5 dollars on Gamersgate, out of pitty.
But certainly not an MMO that people will want to play.
So, to my point. I seem to spend far, far more time waiting for the next MMO to come along and disappoint me than I do actually playing MMO games. That's sad, in it self, and says a hell of a lot for an industry which could be so much more than it is right now. Currently, I'm eagerly awaiting Diablo III, Archeage and Planetside 2, and I have a close eye on Tera and TSW. Which of those games will let me down? All of them? three of them? Who knows, but I'm almost certain we'll all be back here in twelve months time, waiting.
Simple
1) Diablo is not a MMORPG, so it will be highly entertaining providing you do not expect a MMO.
I am so excited I paid 1 year WoW subscription to get it free as soon as it's released.
2) Planetside 2 is not a MMO either, not in the sense me and you perceive a MMORPG should be.
Yet I am excited about this one too, because I am craving to play a good FPS online (I loved Global Agenda but it feels too much like a Multiplayer game, PS2 should be a little bit more sophisticated )
3) Tera is Aion Re-loaded or Lineage 2 Re-re-loaded, yes it has few twist, but it's the same Korean bullshit.
4) TSW I have to be honest, I do not understand the concept so I am not particularly excited, but I keep an open door for it since it looks something different.
3) Archeage is what everyone who played MMORPGs prior WoW is waiting for.
To me could be the biggest surprise in the MMO industry since WoW or the biggest disappointment, since I am so excited about
But on paper Archeage looks like the future of MMORPG (Themepark + Sandbox)
Another one I am looking for is GW2, although it's not exactly a game which promises too much freedom, it looks different enough to be fun, as long is not as instanced as the original GW
Originally posted by AdamTM Originally posted by Vegetto Game design need to be rich? Hmm... I spent several years learning all the different aspects of game design, as i didn't know what career i wanted to go into from Uni within IT/Design and i also wanted to know how things were done. With todays open source engines you can use, MMO engines even (for free i have found), the rest is just something someone can do if they are willing to spend the years into it. Cost? F' all. I can do my own models, animation, code, textures, have servers, level design, lighting, sound. All that remains is the net code, which to be honest i think i could pick up in time, as i manage networks, servers, code and everything else inbetween. Has anyone seen the FREE engines available? Do you know how EASY it is to make a game mod like counter-strike was made? Well the open source engines available now offer you just that, you just need to put the time in learning how everything works and do it yourself. I started in level design in 90's, then you want to customise all the models, their scripts, the textures, the animation, the UI and maybe it's just me, but that's just what i did. I was thinking today funnily enough about starting my own project to keep myself occupied and setting up a small design/CAD business on side of my full-time job, but maybe the creativity involved in TRYING to make a game from the ground up is much more appealing. What people don't realise is, the big games that use other peoples engines, it's like making a car without having to design the engine, rest is tweaking, aesthetics, performance, design. But i am interested to hear what would actually cost me money in the above? Engine free, art assets i make, coding i do (note: The bulk is already in the engine, rest is your unique assets and scripts), servers aren't an issue, databases, project management, designing the website even. I'm not being sarcastic, i am genuinely unsure why people are saying it costs alot of money to make a small indie online game...unless.. You haven't managed to learn how to do things yourself. Several years of manuals, tutorials, videos, college, Uni, practice, practice... time > money in this case. I would need someone as an extra pair of hands to speed it up and to write more complex code and that's about it. I'll get flamed by someone who will claim to be an AAA developer, but i would i am confused about the theory of high cost?
Time. It will cost you Time. Time a regular functioning human with no fallback does not have. Or, respectively, the game would come out in 10 years.
You are not able to do everything yourself. Period. If you do, its going to look shit and play shit. Because you will make mistakes in modeling that an experienced game-modeler wouldn't make, and you would optimize textures wrong because you don't know how. You can't be an expert in everything. Not Fucking Possible
What you would release is complete garbage with garbage code that would probably go for 5 dollars on Gamersgate, out of pitty. But certainly not an MMO that people will want to play.
Yes it would take many years, but the theory is justified. You can be a near expert in all of the above, if you spent just as much time prior to that learning it, doing the degree's related to it. It's just like the theory of enough monkeys, enough typewriters and enough time...
The crap that comes out now is quite frankly a doddle for a team of amatuers, i cannot believe anyone who's spent longer than 5 minutes looking into it can say otherwise. The level of skill or effort i have seen in the last couple of years regarding indy MMO titles is pitiful. The fact that these are often teams of half a dozen is disgraceful...i focus this comment mainly on the artists/modellers.
Minecraft may not be an MMO, but it was just one person, who used the engine of someone else and the concept of someone else and did the rest himself...or so it's told. This is what i am saying, not everyone is a dreamer, not everyone just can do one job.
I believe developers need to get back to competing with each other on featurees and start looking more into niche-type markets for their MMOs rather than trying to go head to head with each other in some insane bid to rach ten million subscribers with a mediocre clone game. They should find something to make their own and build a dedicated core of players who will stay with the game for years rather than months, as seems to be the norm today with these uninspiring offerings. It's time to get real.
Bingo - this is really where the industry needs to focus.
If you use good middleware and gnu tools and you sacrifice on art assets and graphics its not actually that hard. Its mostly all about capital. Which is hardly shocking. Everything is about capital.
Well, there is love and stupidity as well, nut yeah those are the powers that rules the earth.
It is hard to find someone funding you if you are unknown and that you want to create a very different game doesn´t really help either...
Heck, Strain went to a bunch of studios when he tried to get funding for class 4 and his earlier games have sold over 15 million (not counting Wow that was his initial idea). They all told him he needed to make a game that was more like Wow for them to fund it until he talked to Microsoft, they just looked on his merits and gave him a truckload of money.
If the guy behind Diablo and Guildwars have that problems to get a funding for a non Wow like game, imagine someone that never made a game before.
Plus the fact people are looking to make an mmorpg for their first game shows the money a big red flag.
These wannabe devs should start out making small games. Very small ones. Build from there learning skills and gaining experiences that will help them in the future and will show the money how serious they really are about doing a game.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If nobody is making your dream game, make it yourself.
Making games is hella hard, especially if you are poor.
I never claimed it was easy. But I think that whenever a person is feeling down about the state of worlds out there, it helps to sit down and actually think clearly about the obstacles and scale of work/organization required to make one of these behemoths happen.
THAT is a piece of bad, borderline on absurb, advice.
A modern video game, even an indie one, needs a team (programming, art, graphics, deisgn ..) and lots of technical know-how. Assuming a random player would be anything close to have the skill set to make a full featured game, abate a good one, is just totally silly.
The alternative being to shout on forums demanding someone else do all the work for you? What I'm asking is for people like the original poster to stop for a moment and really analyze what they are asking for.
Do I believe that the OP would actually succeed in achieving his dream game by following my advice? No. But I think the journey, however short, would be helpful in gaining some appreciation of the scale of what is being asked for. And every once in a blue moon, people prove me wrong and do the impossible.
I come from the pencil-and-paper era, where if you didn't like a rulebook, you simply sat down, rolled up your sleeves and wrote one of your own. We MMO gamers have become too passive for my tastes: all consumption, no production. We are not entitled to anything but what we make for ourselves. The scale of an MMO is enormous - the number of different moving parts that all need be functional and polished is enormous. Of course it's far, far more than a single individual can achieve. But the same is true of Linux, of wikipedia, of any number of giant collaborative projects that exist out there that would be absurd to attempt if you just start by looking at the finished product.
For every Wikipedia, there are 10000 failure. You may devote precious time to try but i am not that naive. But sure, if the OP tries and fail, no harm to you and me, right?
And what is wrong with all consumption and no production? Do you watch movie? Do you complain about bad movies? Are you going to make your own movie if you complain? I think not.
We are consumers. We pay (well, guess not F2P MMOs) for our entertainment and i think it is perfectly ok to bitch & moan. Sure, it is a bit counter productive to do it all day (i would advice find another hobby) but why wouldn't we? There is no rules, no barrier to say we cannot.
It will be awhile until we see anything that is playable but being a part of the community from the ground up will be enjoyable.
Pathfinder Online has all the markings of a truly next-gen sandbox!
While I wait for Pathfinder Online I will play Archeage if we ever get a NA release date.
But yes I understand you frustrations, I to started playing UO 14 years ago and still resin from time to time but it's just not the same as it once was in it's prime.
I'm also done with Themepark mmo's. I enjoyed my experiences with them over the years but they all pale in comparison to the quality and depth of UO.
Check out Pathfinder Online and read Ryan Danceys blogs and posts, he really does seem to get it and has a vast amount of experience in sanbox games (3d and PnP).
There are hundreds of thousands of players in the same boat as you and people get it. Trying to beat wow in the themepark game I think is almost over. We should see a major shift in development of mmo's in the few years.
Sandbox and quality virtual worlds are coming back in style!!
Thank you for the suggestion. I'm in the middle of reading the blog right now and am actually going to look into the PnP version while we wait.
Comments
I think people are unfairly crapping all over World of Warcraft because seemingly every MMORPG dev is trying to copy or take inspiration from it. That's not WoW's fault, that's everyone else's. As a game dev, which route do you go? The route that's gotten maybe a million sales at most, or the route that's gotten 12 million sales at most? Granted 1 million isn't bad, but that's not a game that a dev studio is going to put a lot of money behind. The Old Republic couldn't possibly take risks with such a massive development budget for example.
I've played WoW for 6 or 7 years. Most of that time spent was raiding. There was something very cool about raiding with 39 other people on Vent, having fun, joking around and talking while playing. Then they scaled it back to 25 people and it was still fun. My last raids were in 10-mans and still as fun as ever with a casual-minded group that didn't suck, and we joked around plenty while playing. It was an interesting combination of social interaction and gaming that I haven't had before(and probably never will again). It's much different than getting on a shooter and hearing nothing but trash talk and trolling and stupidness, it was more like having a group of real life friends gaming together.
I enjoyed the theme park-yness of WoW because I'm somebody that enjoys some focus in a game. As an out-of-game example, I ordered a package of 11 yoga workouts. It came with a book about nutrition and a bunch of other stuff. Outlined in the book, it gives a 13-week outlook on which workouts to do on what days, 13 weeks for beginners, 13 weeks for intermediates and 13 weeks for advanced. If there was no guide like this, I don't think I'd be as dedicated to it as I am now. I like following guidelines and things like this, rather than making my own rules and discovering things.
That's not to say that I haven't enjoyed a sandbox world. I have very fond memories of Graal Online when it was new at the time, and it allowed you to build onto its game world and make scripted events and quests and that sort of thing. I believe it had to be approved by the folks that ran it before it was actually put into the game world but you could at least build it client-side for offline play. The game had no direction. It was basically The Legend Of Zelda: A Link To The Past Online, filled with heart containers and items scattered around the game world and you had to explore(or read up online) on where to find everything. It had a unique PvP system, sort of like karma where if you didn't attack anybody, eventually your player name would get lighter and lighter until it was gold and no players could hit you. If you PvP a lot and kill players, your name would get darker and darker and you'd have to wait longer to reach that unhittable state. I was massively addicted to Graal at the time, I suppose partly because I love the NES and SNES so much(still do).
Now Playing: Mission Against Terror, Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Minecraft, and the piano. =3
Visit my fail Youtube channel(don't leave me nasty messages!): http://www.youtube.com/user/Mirii471
Then this is an area where you simply have to accept from day one that you cannot outspend the big studios and not even try. Even better, make art-generation a part of the game so that as your player base grows, so does the library of art available in the game.
( entire WoW continent implemented in Minecraft by a player )
I think the first company that builds a decent engine not some buggy alpha state engine and gets user created content right will have a big hit on their hands. It just has so many positives in that it allows the devlopers to focus there main goals while allowing your user base to fill in the gaps. It also can satisfy the urge to build as one thing pc gaming has proved if nothing else is user created content can rival that of the devoloper if given the right tools.
Take a look at tor, and for those who are playing it, one of the bigger complaints is the amount of warzones in the game. If Bioware created a tool that allowed people to construct and submit their own warzones. Then Bioware picks one every week, and its added to the rotation, at the end of the week its voted on and if its popular it stays in the rotation if not its phased out. Bioware would never need to create another warzone again and even if they pick a horrible one that noone likes its only in the game for a week.
This kind of system would benefit a sandbox even more (not creating warzones or instanced anything but user created content in general) one of the bigger complaints we seen from most of the newer sandboxes is lack of content and to large a focus on zerg ffa pvp with little else to do in them. Allowing the player base to create content for these titles allows the devolopers to focus more on bug fixes and new features while there world gets content generated for free.
THAT is a piece of bad, borderline on absurb, advice.
A modern video game, even an indie one, needs a team (programming, art, graphics, deisgn ..) and lots of technical know-how. Assuming a random player would be anything close to have the skill set to make a full featured game, abate a good one, is just totally silly.
I think the OP needs to get a life. There are MANY alternatives of entertainment.
Brooding over some video games that may or may not happen .. is a waste of time.
BTW, i did not read the whole thing, i am one of those who are happy with the current state of themepark MMOs. In fact, if i am not entertained, i won't even be participating in a MMO forum. There is no point. Life has so many entertaining activities.
I approve of this message.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I guess people like you and me are in the minority
Partially right.
But not applicable to the suggestions in this thread.
Minecraft is not an MMORPG, and it never will be if its going to run the netcode its running now, its just a technical limitation.
We also need to remember that Notch (with
) did not create Minecraft out of thin air and genius. Dwarf Fortress gave the basic framework of game-mechanics and Infiniminer gave the graphics, and then he applied his voxel-fetish. Also he had experience on working with Wurm Online.
Minecraft was just small enough project to be managable by one person, and it still took -YEARS- of alpha to get it released in any fashion whatsoever.
Miner Wars is a supposed to be a MMORPG with similar aspirations as Minecraft, but it has a 1 million dollar investment and over 20 professionals working on it.
There is a huge jump between "make a game" and "make an MMO". To expect any one person to be able to do this on their own, or with a shoestring budget, is assinine.
I can make a text based mmo with php and mysql quite easily, even maps using image maps and same for buildings and crap. But that is nothing like creating an mmo with 3d or even 2d graphics and animation.
Yes, but since the OP left UO because of the aging graphics, i didn't think thats relevant at all. I'm talking, as always, in the context of the thread.
What people here usually say is that they do not want MUDs (as i stated before, thats an obtainable goal) but they want a good looking sandbox/game with modern graphics and gameplay.
Then coming in and saying "just make it yourself" is completely silly.
I love this ludicrous assertion that we should be spending our money to "support" an industry that doesn't even provide us with a game we enjoy playing. I speak with my money by putting it into things I actually enjoy. I'm not going to search for and subscribe to some half-baked game that is somewhat similar to what I want, but not enough to be worth playing. THAT is sending mixed message if anything is.
At any rate, we are seeing a bit of a paradigm change right now, and I thank SWTOR for it. I think almost *everyone*, including Bioware's competitors expected TOR to be a huge winner. You saw it in all of the reviews that game out a week after launch talking about how this game was a 90%+ amazing mmo when clearly it is not, and it has major problems on more levels than I care to think about anymore.
Since SWTOR is not the 'wow-killer" the industry seemingly thought it would be, I think people are starting to get a clue that there is no such thing. Any game developer who is thinking they are going to see anything more than 1 million players subbing to their game is out of their minds. I think it's time everyone gets back to reality and realizes that an MMO game should be honored to have 500,000 dedicated players, and that should be a strong measure of business success. If they get more, then good for them. If they pull down 1 or 2 million players, then their game is an off-the-charts success. WoW was an anomaly, a perfect storm of timing and events, and while we may see another one happen in the future, you can bet winners like that will be no less than a decade apart from each other.
Does anyone think CCP is hurting for money with 300,000 (or so) players? Do the math on that with a $15 sub fee. As a business owner myself, I would be crapping my pants to have that kind of monthly money coming in, and they have enough money and backing that they are still releasing free expansions to EVE every year, getting ready to release DUST, and they are working on WoD. I personally believe that CCP has the most realistic business model in the whole MMO industry. This isn't to say that there will be no wild successes to come, but to build a game with the goal of five or ten million subscribers in mind is completely unrealistic.
I believe developers need to get back to competing with each other on featurees and start looking more into niche-type markets for their MMOs rather than trying to go head to head with each other in some insane bid to rach ten million subscribers with a mediocre clone game. They should find something to make their own and build a dedicated core of players who will stay with the game for years rather than months, as seems to be the norm today with these uninspiring offerings. It's time to get real.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I was agreeing with you and offering my own experience to back it up.
Meh I really REALLY hate the thing about this site where people cant seem to cut the part of what ever they are wanting to reply to out of the message so you get an entire screen of entire posts quoted right after the other. Anyway to reply to the guy oo 2 pages ago or so that said my previous post was pretty much null because i have never done any kind of game design.
On the contrary i have done quite a bit of research as well as practical use of game engines such as
http://unity3d.com/unity/
I have tried several but this is the one i find the easiest to use as well as the most efficent for someone like myself who has little to no artistic skill and basic coding skills so far. Even with this limitation i have been quite easily to follow and complete several shall we say ... tutorial projects...
http://www.burgzergarcade.com/hack-slash-rpg-unity3d-game-engine-tutorial <--- Complete SPRPG Step by Step
this guy isnt as high quality as 3d buzz but he gets the point across.
These guys however
http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_home.php
Have MANY MANY high quality training videos as well as the MMO training series i was telling you about in my previous post.
Now as i have said these things are very time consuming but completely possible as i have completed several of the tutorials myself and have learned quite a bit about c# and the way games function. I am by no means a master game designer or programmer or artist BUT i have finished and everything i have finished was quite playable.
The problem i have is that if someone makes a grandiose claim that anyone can make a MMO for little cash ( if you make your own art) is that im some how i dont know..... underappreciating you or something with your elitest view. Kinda like the way people that use this
http://usa.autodesk.com/
instead of
http://www.blender.org/
which completely open source and can do just about anything the previous can.
My conclusion is that the only reason we do not see more inde games is that i think it boils down to a simple reason.
Game development = lots of time and some cash for assets
People with the cash to buy what they need weather that be code or assets do not have the time do make a MMO
People with the time to make an MMO do not have the cash flow to afford the things they need.
Now if you make cash and give up your job or what ever it is you do to get the cash to make a game you dont have that cash flow anymore so you end up in the second .. enough time but no money
if you give up time to make money you end up back in the first stage so its kind of like a vicious circle you get stuck in lol.
The alternative being to shout on forums demanding someone else do all the work for you? What I'm asking is for people like the original poster to stop for a moment and really analyze what they are asking for.
Do I believe that the OP would actually succeed in achieving his dream game by following my advice? No. But I think the journey, however short, would be helpful in gaining some appreciation of the scale of what is being asked for. And every once in a blue moon, people prove me wrong and do the impossible.
I come from the pencil-and-paper era, where if you didn't like a rulebook, you simply sat down, rolled up your sleeves and wrote one of your own. We MMO gamers have become too passive for my tastes: all consumption, no production. We are not entitled to anything but what we make for ourselves. The scale of an MMO is enormous - the number of different moving parts that all need be functional and polished is enormous. Of course it's far, far more than a single individual can achieve. But the same is true of Linux, of wikipedia, of any number of giant collaborative projects that exist out there that would be absurd to attempt if you just start by looking at the finished product.
Sorry, i was coming from that "inclusion thread" rather loaded and defensive.
Game design need to be rich? Hmm...
I spent several years learning all the different aspects of game design, as i didn't know what career i wanted to go into from Uni within IT/Design and i also wanted to know how things were done.
With todays open source engines you can use, MMO engines even (for free i have found), the rest is just something someone can do if they are willing to spend the years into it.
Cost? F' all. I can do my own models, animation, code, textures, have servers, level design, lighting, sound. All that remains is the net code, which to be honest i think i could pick up in time, as i manage networks, servers, code and everything else inbetween.
Has anyone seen the FREE engines available? Do you know how EASY it is to make a game mod like counter-strike was made? Well the open source engines available now offer you just that, you just need to put the time in learning how everything works and do it yourself.
I started in level design in 90's, then you want to customise all the models, their scripts, the textures, the animation, the UI and maybe it's just me, but that's just what i did.
I was thinking today funnily enough about starting my own project to keep myself occupied and setting up a small design/CAD business on side of my full-time job, but maybe the creativity involved in TRYING to make a game from the ground up is much more appealing.
What people don't realise is, the big games that use other peoples engines, it's like making a car without having to design the engine, rest is tweaking, aesthetics, performance, design.
But i am interested to hear what would actually cost me money in the above? Engine free, art assets i make, coding i do (note: The bulk is already in the engine, rest is your unique assets and scripts), servers aren't an issue, databases, project management, designing the website even.
I'm not being sarcastic, i am genuinely unsure why people are saying it costs alot of money to make a small indie online game...unless..
You haven't managed to learn how to do things yourself. Several years of manuals, tutorials, videos, college, Uni, practice, practice... time > money in this case. I would need someone as an extra pair of hands to speed it up and to write more complex code and that's about it. I'll get flamed by someone who will claim to be an AAA developer, but i am confused about the theory of high cost? Note: Not an AAA game, a basic MMO on an existing engine.
Keep an eye out for Pathfinder Online.
It will be awhile until we see anything that is playable but being a part of the community from the ground up will be enjoyable.
Pathfinder Online has all the markings of a truly next-gen sandbox!
While I wait for Pathfinder Online I will play Archeage if we ever get a NA release date.
But yes I understand you frustrations, I to started playing UO 14 years ago and still resin from time to time but it's just not the same as it once was in it's prime.
I'm also done with Themepark mmo's. I enjoyed my experiences with them over the years but they all pale in comparison to the quality and depth of UO.
Check out Pathfinder Online and read Ryan Danceys blogs and posts, he really does seem to get it and has a vast amount of experience in sanbox games (3d and PnP).
There are hundreds of thousands of players in the same boat as you and people get it. Trying to beat wow in the themepark game I think is almost over. We should see a major shift in development of mmo's in the few years.
Sandbox and quality virtual worlds are coming back in style!!
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Time. It will cost you Time.
Time a regular functioning human with no fallback does not have.
Or, respectively, the game would come out in 10 years.
Take this game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overgrowth
I've been following the game since 2008. Its 2012 and the current build is ALPHA 166.
There are 4 people working on it with weekly updates (http://www.youtube.com/user/WolfireGames)
And its -STILL- alpha.
4 people. 4 years. Alpha.
You are not able to do everything yourself. Period. If you do, its going to look shit and play shit.
Because you will make mistakes in modeling that an experienced game-modeler wouldn't make, and you would optimize textures wrong because you don't know how.
You can't be an expert in everything.
Not
Fucking
Possible
What you would release is complete garbage with garbage code that would probably go for 5 dollars on Gamersgate, out of pitty.
But certainly not an MMO that people will want to play.
Simple
1) Diablo is not a MMORPG, so it will be highly entertaining providing you do not expect a MMO.
I am so excited I paid 1 year WoW subscription to get it free as soon as it's released.
2) Planetside 2 is not a MMO either, not in the sense me and you perceive a MMORPG should be.
Yet I am excited about this one too, because I am craving to play a good FPS online (I loved Global Agenda but it feels too much like a Multiplayer game, PS2 should be a little bit more sophisticated )
3) Tera is Aion Re-loaded or Lineage 2 Re-re-loaded, yes it has few twist, but it's the same Korean bullshit.
4) TSW I have to be honest, I do not understand the concept so I am not particularly excited, but I keep an open door for it since it looks something different.
3) Archeage is what everyone who played MMORPGs prior WoW is waiting for.
To me could be the biggest surprise in the MMO industry since WoW or the biggest disappointment, since I am so excited about
But on paper Archeage looks like the future of MMORPG (Themepark + Sandbox)
Another one I am looking for is GW2, although it's not exactly a game which promises too much freedom, it looks different enough to be fun, as long is not as instanced as the original GW
Time a regular functioning human with no fallback does not have.
Or, respectively, the game would come out in 10 years.
Take this game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overgrowth
I've been following the game since 2008. Its 2012 and the current build is ALPHA 166.
There are 4 people working on it with weekly updates (http://www.youtube.com/user/WolfireGames)
And its -STILL- alpha.
4 people. 4 years. Alpha.
You are not able to do everything yourself. Period. If you do, its going to look shit and play shit.
Because you will make mistakes in modeling that an experienced game-modeler wouldn't make, and you would optimize textures wrong because you don't know how.
You can't be an expert in everything.
Not
Fucking
Possible
What you would release is complete garbage with garbage code that would probably go for 5 dollars on Gamersgate, out of pitty.
But certainly not an MMO that people will want to play.
Yes it would take many years, but the theory is justified. You can be a near expert in all of the above, if you spent just as much time prior to that learning it, doing the degree's related to it. It's just like the theory of enough monkeys, enough typewriters and enough time...
The crap that comes out now is quite frankly a doddle for a team of amatuers, i cannot believe anyone who's spent longer than 5 minutes looking into it can say otherwise. The level of skill or effort i have seen in the last couple of years regarding indy MMO titles is pitiful. The fact that these are often teams of half a dozen is disgraceful...i focus this comment mainly on the artists/modellers.
Minecraft may not be an MMO, but it was just one person, who used the engine of someone else and the concept of someone else and did the rest himself...or so it's told. This is what i am saying, not everyone is a dreamer, not everyone just can do one job.
Great post op.
Bingo - this is really where the industry needs to focus.
Plus the fact people are looking to make an mmorpg for their first game shows the money a big red flag.
These wannabe devs should start out making small games. Very small ones. Build from there learning skills and gaining experiences that will help them in the future and will show the money how serious they really are about doing a game.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
For every Wikipedia, there are 10000 failure. You may devote precious time to try but i am not that naive. But sure, if the OP tries and fail, no harm to you and me, right?
And what is wrong with all consumption and no production? Do you watch movie? Do you complain about bad movies? Are you going to make your own movie if you complain? I think not.
We are consumers. We pay (well, guess not F2P MMOs) for our entertainment and i think it is perfectly ok to bitch & moan. Sure, it is a bit counter productive to do it all day (i would advice find another hobby) but why wouldn't we? There is no rules, no barrier to say we cannot.
And we have no obligation to produce ANYTHING.
Thank you for the suggestion. I'm in the middle of reading the blog right now and am actually going to look into the PnP version while we wait.