Where did real discussion go?

Chrisbox

Thousands of people sign up for different gaming forums everyday, and thousands of posts are put up for all to see and comment...but will we gain from others feedback?  I feel like as MMO's progress and new popular and innovative games come out there is no such thing as actually discussing them and engaging in an intelligent non rage conversation.  Basically every recent [ or still living ] MMO I have been hyped about at one point or another [ Swtor,Dota2, D3, Aion]  recieves more hate and rage threads/comments on any forum vs. positive or constructive discussions.  Im currently playing Swtor and enjoying it, but even on swtor's own forum there is a smaller amount of people that want to actually discuss the game, or just not hate on it one way or another, and im sure most of the people that do destroy the forums are still subbed.  Where have the benefits of forums gone? Is today's forum discussion just arguements about one or more people's opinions on a video game?

StonesDK

You could always create a fanpage with an attached forum where you set the rules. That way you can ban anyone not there to discuss how awesome a game is.

 

I have been a part of forums like that and you know what? They hardly get any traffic. People gushing over a game having nothing but praise, wanting to talk about ingame related stuff just isn't very interesting conversation topics. What sparks a vibrant active forum is disagreement. 

Chrisbox

Originally posted by Starpower

You could always create a fanpage with an attached forum where you set the rules. That way you can ban anyone not there to discuss how awesome a game is.

This was so off from the point I was trying to make.  I've posted my thoughts on many games in a forum before, and if it was a negative review I would atleast make it constructive and tell the readers why I dislike the game or parts of it.

StonesDK

Originally posted by Chrisbox

Originally posted by Starpower

You could always create a fanpage with an attached forum where you set the rules. That way you can ban anyone not there to discuss how awesome a game is.

This was so off from the point I was trying to make.  I've posted my thoughts on many games in a forum before, and if it was a negative review I would atleast make it constructive and tell the readers why I dislike the game or parts of it.

No matter how elequent well written and correct the points you are trying to make are. If somebody doesn't want to agree with you they simply won't

 

Facts, logic and well documented examples takes a back seat at that point. It's how forums work.

quasi_dead

I don't think there really is less constructive criticism. Just far more opinion in general, so harder to sort the wheat from the chaff. While I empathize with the view that there is a lot of mongs spouting nonsense, I would say, proportionally, that this has always been the case.

Dredphyre

Anger creates drama, and some people just LOVE drama.  Even well-toned constructive criticism gets drowned out by the hyperbolic tirades you read on forums.   There's a thread right now in the official forums entitled "Player bounties will save this game."

I freaking laughed out loud at this statement. Does anyone honestly believe that one feature, let alone Player Bounties, will save a game, any game? 

 

And yet people post this shit. Day in and day out.  I suspect they have a high opinion of their own intelligence, or wit, and bask in the self-certainty that comes along with it.

 

There was another thread I read recently in which a poster lambasted a game's lack of innovation, and then proceeded (presumably straight-faced) to list off a number of 'innovative' ideas he had for the game.  Ironically, nothing he listed was innovative and had been done in numerous games before.

 

The number of people interested in honest discussion about games, and capable of intelligent discussion, is an embarrassingly small number of people.  

snapfusion

Originally posted by Chrisbox

Originally posted by Starpower

You could always create a fanpage with an attached forum where you set the rules. That way you can ban anyone not there to discuss how awesome a game is.

This was so off from the point I was trying to make.  I've posted my thoughts on many games in a forum before, and if it was a negative review I would atleast make it constructive and tell the readers why I dislike the game or parts of it.

True to your original post Chris there are far more people like Star that is clearly poking fun at the concept of an actual non negatively slanted discussion on something.  Hes letting you know thats its his right to bitch about something but your free to run your own site where you can "censor" and "control" the content.

 

I totally agree with you though there are very few posts that start positive.  And ones that are are  quickly filled with hate and negative opinions from people letting your know how much your game sucks etc.

StonesDK

The only thing I can say after being around this site for a couple of years is, there are a lot of gamers out there not right in the head.

A great example of that is the mentality of trashing one game because the person is afraid said game is going to hurt the subscription numbers of their own favorite upcoming MMO. To me that's pure insanity. That's just one example of what I see on these forums.

 

Then there's the stalker type. You know the guy who followed a game over 5+ years and got gravely disappointed at the end result. Then spend the next year or more posting negative stuff on the same forum because they can't move on. Again another headcase

 

Then you have people with oppositional defiance disorders, ADHD or other behavioral problems drawn to MMOs also posting on forums. Is there any wonder why you can't have a rational discussion these days?

 

As for suggesting you make your own forum. The point I was trying to make, is not that people have the right to piss and moan but the only way you are going to get what you are looking for, is to be in control yourself. My own experiences with forums where people are likeminded is, the activity on those sites are often very low. MMORPG thrives on disagreements for instance rational or not

 

 

Kyleran

Originally posted by Starpower

The only thing I can say after being around this site for a couple of years is, there are a lot of gamers out there not right in the head.
A great example of that is the mentality of trashing one game because the person is afraid said game is going to hurt the subscription numbers of their own favorite upcoming MMO. To me that's pure insanity. That's just one example of what I see on these forums.
 
Then there's the stalker type. You know the guy who followed a game over 5+ years and got gravely disappointed at the end result. Then spend the next year or more posting negative stuff on the same forum because they can't move on. Again another headcase
 
Then you have people with oppositional defiance disorders, ADHD or other behavioral problems drawn to MMOs also posting on forums. Is there any wonder why you can't have a rational discussion these days?
 
As for suggesting you make your own forum. The point I was trying to make, is not that people have the right to piss and moan but the only way you are going to get what you are looking for, is to be in control yourself. My own experiences with forums where people are likeminded is, the activity on those sites are often very low. MMORPG thrives on disagreements for instance rational or not
 
 

 

Er, well yeah, the most interesting forums are all about PVP between people with differing viewpoints. What you and the OP are decrying, drama, hyperbole, headcases etc. I call entertainment and I wouldn't want it any other way here.
But then again, I'm one of the inmates in the asylum.

k11keeper

I really think this site is more geared to overarching discussion, not detailed in depth discussions about one certain game. It's like best buy it has all kinds of stuff and some people that know a bit about it but if you want to get the more detailed advice you need to go to a specialty store.

Those specialty stores are like fansites for whatever game you play. Not official forums they can and usually are troll ridden as well. But on occasion this site does have very in depth conversations about topics that pertain to all or most MMOs and that's really why I like it. If you want discussions about one single game that isn't full of hater/fanboy arguing back and forth I'd go somewhere else or at the least keep those discussions out of the pub.

Votan

It is fun to read how really crazy people get over video games, it is entertaining. Many come to be entertained not to discuss. 

 

Other reasons could be people who lay out a good case for something usually end up with to many paragraphs of text. (hopefully not just a giant wall of text).  A good majority of people who visit forums do not read past a sentence or two.  I willl on occasion but far to often it is just a large block of rambling text with no spacing. 

 

Honestly the real discussion has never been around on large public forums.  You can find it on occasion but you really have to sort through a lot of nonsense to find it.  A 20 page thread for example will usually have several very good responses.  However what is quoted is usually the nonsense so it will take time on your part to find it.  You can usually judge by the title of the thread if it is even worth the time to read if what you are looking for is a discussion. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lappas

I agree with the OP. Forums have deteriorated badly over the past few years. It seems to reflect what is happening in the world today. People use forums (including these) to vent the frustrations they have in their own lives. It's far easier to be negative than positive.

 

Some gamers think they have a 'god given' right to be highly critical of a new release just because they have been following it for a time. This irks me no end. Yes, they have a right to be disappointed but the reality is that most games do not live up to unrealistic expectations.  We often expect too much from developers in a market that is going more 'casual' every day. Like it or not, it's not going to change in a hurry and the sooner people realise it the better.

 

 

lykken

More kids playing MMO. Thats the reason. Its nothing wrong with them playing MMA, but the forums do change to their level of development. 

Cuathon

Every reason in this thread is a typical end of the world post. Why is the world going to hell? That question gets the same answers.

The truth is that forums were always like this. You only believe they were different.

KenFisher

Fanboys = I love the game, the game is cool, and I'm cool because I love the game.  Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

Haters = I hate the game, the game sucks, and I'm cool because I hate the game.  Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

Moderates = Will you two please stop dominating the forums.  I'd like to read and talk about the game, not about your e-p*.

 

Then of course there's also...

Random = ZOMG you have an opinion?  What a freakin *(*&*(&%^&*%^ you are.  Go back to your mothers basement and not soil the forum with your vomitous spew.  I'm amazed they didn't abort you when they realized you were brain damaged.  Derp.

 

Sort of hard to have any sort of meaningful conversation in such an environment.

Kaijin2k3

I just think it's because more people are more interested in being right and proving others wrong, than actually being willing to engange in a true discussion.

In that, some people don't like a game for whatever reason, so they go out of their way to "show" others why they're right in not liking it, and how others are wrong in liking it.

It also goes the opposite way. Many times I've seen valid concerns or a valid question, only for people to immediately dismiss it and say that it's a brilliant design (or what have you), and that they feel the dev company would never change it because that would be dumb. Of course, if (or when) the dev company says they're going to do it, they turn right back around and say how smart the dev company is for doing it because it was clearly the right thing to do.

As I said, for too many people, I really do feel it's more about them being right and the others wrong.

Quizzical

If you want to have a conversation on this site without your game being insulted, then head on over to the hardware section.  There you'll be told that the game is fine and your hardware is the problem.  Especially your power supply.  

Cuathon

Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want to have a conversation on this site without your game being insulted, then head on over to the hardware section.  There you'll be told that the game is fine and your hardware is the problem.  Especially your power supply.  

My Dell powercord was a huge pain. They keep getting broke and ruining my battery and shit.

rounner

You are your own worst enemy: polarising people into extreme caricatures, taking offense at those that don't like a game you like etc. SWOTOR invested too heavily into cut scene dialogues but failed to deliver. I can back this up with the facts that choices have no real impact on the game or even any signifcant change to the players quest chains. You can retort if you want, but calling me names is a losing play. I have been trolling here for quite a few years and the scene hasn't really changed so cries of doomsday and how the modern forum poster is worse than the good old days is just another example of your own projection of drama.

smh_alot

Heh, interesting topic, beats a lot of other ones in subject matter and tone. I wish I could +1 it. I'm in actionMMORPG's 3rd category of Moderates, and I wish there were a lot more of those around, but that doesn't seem to be the case, at least on the forums of this site.

I have this theory about how the people that use internet and forums has changed over the years as well as the MMORPG population. In economics there's a model that describes the product lifecycle of a new product, where in the early stages it's the innovators and early adopters that embrace the new product or technology, followed by the early majority, then late majority and laggards. The thing here is, that each group has its own dominant characterics, the groups were generally different from eachother in mentality, personality and attitude. Maybe not on an individual level, as everyone ofc is a 'unique snowflake' but as a group they are.

You can see it in other areas as well, take for example music: before a new music pop trend goes mainstream and becomes hugely popular and accepted, the kind of people that embrace the new trend when it's still indie or underground, the early adopters, are a different kind than when the music gains track and becomes so popular that everyone, mainstream public as well as entrepeneurs and big music companies smelling profit and success, embrace it.

The same with the early days of internet, forums and MMORPG's: let's face it, it was kind of a nerdy business back then, and gaming still had a niche feeling to it, not as hugely mainstream as it had become. The people that embraced internet, forums and online gaming warmly and enthusiastically first were, just like the innovators and early adopters in the product lifecycle model, also different as a group, certainly not a slice of the mainstream population. Those early groups had a larger-than-average number of college students among them, as well as people generally savvy with computers and technology and people with more of an open mind towards accepting new ideas and entertainment trends. And for MMORPG online gaming, there was also a larger group of fans of pen&paper RPG's and classic RPG's among them.

Of course discussions ingame and on internet forums were different with such groups of people back then, internet generally had a wholly different atmosphere and vibe.

Now, internet and online gaming and MMORPG's have become wellknown and embraced by the mainstream population. Just like the product lifecycle model describes the general attitude of the early groups innovators and early adopters to be different from the groups that embrace a product/technology later on, the same applies to the general population and vibe of internet and forums and online MMO gaming compared with in the early years. In the early years of internet forums and MMO gaming, it was the college student, tech savvy, generally more openminded and/or (in the case of MMO's) PnP RPG and classic RPG loving groups that dominated the forum and ingame atmosphere: personally, I think the forum/MMO population in those early years were as a whole smarter, more openminded and eager to try out new things and also more tolerant (after all, a lot of nerds, students and hardcore RPG fans among the early adopters of internet/MMO gaming) than the internet/MMO population these days.

I notice it not only on these forums, but on other forums as well: I can't recall shaking my head as much as the past years, reading the comments and discussions being held. Not that it was all peachy and sunshine in those early years, but generally I think that these days there's a lot more intolerance, less emotional control and EQ, more intellectual laziness and outright stupidity and less smartness to be witnessed on internet forums as well as ingame in MMO's.

The same thing as happens with every field or genre or entertainment product when it's embraced not only by the innovators and early adopters anymore, but also the early and late majority groups. The general vibe and atmosphere of it will change. It becomes 'mainstreamed'.

Slampig

Originally posted by Dredphyre

Anger creates drama, and some people just LOVE drama.  Even well-toned constructive criticism gets drowned out by the hyperbolic tirades you read on forums.   There's a thread right now in the official forums entitled "Player bounties will save this game."

I freaking laughed out loud at this statement. Does anyone honestly believe that one feature, let alone Player Bounties, will save a game, any game? 

 

And yet people post this shit. Day in and day out.  I suspect they have a high opinion of their own intelligence, or wit, and bask in the self-certainty that comes along with it.

 

There was another thread I read recently in which a poster lambasted a game's lack of innovation, and then proceeded (presumably straight-faced) to list off a number of 'innovative' ideas he had for the game.  Ironically, nothing he listed was innovative and had been done in numerous games before.

 

The number of people interested in honest discussion about games, and capable of intelligent discussion, is an embarrassingly small number of people.  

Need a step ladder to get on that horse?

leojreimroc

Would you go to burger king and order a fine steak?  There are places to go to get real in depth conversation.  These forums are not it.  Well, not often anyways.

eye_m

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk

 

This was posted here a while ago in a similar thread.

Adalwulff

It wasn't always like this.

I blame WoW, now MMO's are for the masses, which includes a lot of people who don't give a crap about quality, they just want to be entertained, like watching a movie or something similiar.

I miss those nerdy days, there was so much more imagination and fact filled discussion, now forums are filled with emotion and greed.

mmoguy43

Hey, OP if you did make a site where all of these real discussions took place, I would leave this one and never look back. Yeah the forum PvP was amusing for a while but I am pretty sick of it. I originally came to get involved in design discussions but all it is anymore is a big argument.

77lolmac77

Too many people have ridiculously high standards when it comes to MMOs, yet a show like The Big Bang theory, which is absolute trash, is still on TV.

If any other company type tried to sell products to MMO plahers theyd be astounded.

"Wtf, these guys dont like anything it seems!"

Or to quote Nick Swardson "saw it bro, sucked"

honestly that is this websites mantra.