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New MO video AI/Stress test
deathshroud
Member Posts: 1,366
A new video was recently posted by GM Discord showing footage of the new ai taken during an AI stress test. Discord was given the right to record this event as the devs tested out netowrk performance and some of the new ai attacks.
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
Comments
I don't see how this test could really show anything if the server wasn't loaded with it's average amount of players. Although I guess that 100 players wouldn't make too much of a difference.
Well.. I too can load up UE3 sandbox on PC and spawn lots of NPC. Needs more info to be impressive.
Not sure what I just watched. It certainly wasn't impressive AI though. And they can spawn 400000000 spiders but it still won't make the AI better - so guards and spiders can shoot now in scripted environment.. I guess in 1993 this would have been impressive.
"Please note, all content is placeholder and not final." lolrly?
What kind of AI do you guys want ? i mean MO has basically the same mob AI as many other MMORPGs out there.. Yes it needs work but this vids does look like a step in the right direction.
Also this vid was a stress test of how well the game performs with 100s of mobs in the same place running the new AI code. That is all thats gonig on here a stress test. Adding players into this stress test would not make much different as they are testing how well the servers handle the new AI code.. LOL at least they are actually testing
Infact I think Darkfall is probally the only exception out of all the MMOS i have played.. as the AI in that is pretty good..
Players do matter since AI, player interaction is a major part of the game. If they do these kind of controlled tests, they could later find out, when they get more players on the server the AI crashes or they system can't handle the player and AI processing or something.
Yes but by the looks of this that test was not about player interaction but 100s of AI in the same area.. I am pretty sure they will run more tests with palyers interacting with AI at a later stage.. Tho saying that this is StarVault we are talking about hehe..
Actually MO's AI is worse than most other mmorpgs since it's so buggy. You've got rocket pigs, warping mobs, invisible mobs, mobs that "eat you up", pets getting stuck everywhere and/or disappearing, etc. Add bad prediction and random fps drops due to poor optimization, and PvE is a total mess.
Hopefully this new, ultra-advanced AI that will revolutionize the genre (according to Henrik) is going to change that. Maybe MO will be a totally different game after this coming expansion, and PvErs will flock to MO because all other games will pale in comparison.
However, this video does not show anything but random numbers of mobs spawning in the game engine, so I wouldn't get my hopes up just yet.
Pretty much what Biskop said the AI in MO is a joke. It is buggy warpy non intuitive. Everything can pretty much be soloed if you are in danger all you need to to is double tap and the mob will run away and reset. Even the Kimuru can be killed by a couple guys staying out of range (it may take hours but it has been done.)
Henrik and comapny have said the AI will be like NO MMO out there. So, I want to see amazing never before seen AI.
environement affect ai performance because of shadow,hdr etc etc!testing it in a bubble worl like this is like wow putting 1000 ai npc in an empty shell .sadly they need to do the same thing but in an area they dont is demanding hardware wise then they can see how the ai perform
I dont know when you played, but double tapp and mob resets? Not true never seen it, never happened
Henriks reply quoted from the offical thread on the forums..
"I would like to explain what this video shows, since there seem to be some misunderstandings in here.
This video is a short frap from our AI STRESS test on client/node/server, nothing else really, we didn’t care about the models or what they were doing, the only thing we needed for this test was, stress the client/node/server. We copied exact environment lightning from the real world and put them in this test room, which was an open space, no hills walls, because we wanted to stress test the client, if we added walls hills etc this would have blocked visibility on the avatars and not stressed the client as much as we were aiming for.
Behind the chaos that may be hard to see here is some interesting behaviors: In the beginning when kimuru spawns his minion you can see a flee/panicking behavior, they all run away from the kimutu, creating a circle around him. They all use navmesh as they move around, they all check their environment to see if they need to react with fear or engage. They all have collision and moves from each others so they dont walk on each others. They all check what is the best tactic to engage on the kimuru, which is in this case use range due to the fear and range they have, they have like 5 other attacks/weapons they can use for different situations,
We saw some different actions from the Kiumuru that he can do now depending on the situation.
We saw 400 spiders hatching eggs, that spawned a good amount of spider lings, that directly saw the horrific kimuru and ran as fast as they could to their adults, as you can clearly see in the video as well.
Nothing, absolutely nothing of all above works in the same way or at all in live version of our AI. The entire AI system have been replaced.
Its indeed hard to see all this in the video, since the goal was not to show all this, but to stress test client/node/server, using these AI behaviors to give a real result. Seb frapsed while he did this important stress test, and I spend 15 min to edit it and release it for ya, to show some progress as we go as it could be fun to see something.
We do have path finding, patrolling guards crowd control, because that was the requirements for us to release Tindrem, which we are.
I hope this clears up the confusion we caused by not giving as detailed description as we could have made. This is not a showing the final AI behavior awakening video.
Thanks"
sebastions reply on the forums
"Yes, all the new attacks are made up of a "charge" and a "cooldown".
The charge is the tell, similar to what you have in boss battles in most games.
Most mobs will have one fast,medium and slow attack.
The fast attack will have a very short charge and is there to give "chip damage", small damage but hard to block . The slow attack in most cases have a fair amount of charge, this will make it possible for players to indeed block the attack and ,if we can find a good way to calculate it, even perfect block them.
All ranged attacks are depending on movement and skill of the AI.
How much the player have moved during the "charge" of the ranged attack will help determine if the AI hits or not. A missed ranged attack will still be shown as a effect thou. This ALSO applies to all magic attacks the AI does.
They will in fact "miss" with a thunderbolts etc and you can see it hit the ground around you."
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
The problem with implementing thinks like AI is, that there needs to be a working environment for it. Since there is not a single thing working correctly in MO, this will also fail, simple as that.
To use some data for that statement:
The world's geometry is a mess. Everything will hang or gets stucked everywhere. I mean, stairs? Stucked. Invisible Edges, Stucked. Have you ever tried to use a hunter playstyle? You simply CAN'T play with a pet, because ... IT GETS STUCKED. Everywhere. It's simply impossible.
Pathfinding is ONE big thing that a good AI will need, but as I've written, this won't work with the WORLD of Nave.
SV only has to do the basics first:
Fix the world and the gamebreaking errors, then add missing content. But guess what? They simply have not the manpower nor the money nor the experience to handle that epic mess they call a game. The only reason people are playing that 'game' is that there is NO alternative regarding MO's gameplay. Otherwise NO ONE would support such a bug-fest.
Unfortunalety, there are people out there that seems to be thinking it's a good thing to support that company with multiple accounts or whatsoever. I think this is clearly the wrong way: They will never do anything about the games QUALITY when people don't set a sign.
they recently made some changes to the Horse pet ai, they now follow extremely well. Hopefully they will expand this to the rest of the pets. I had a horse follow me from huergar cave to the molva vendor without incident all the way up the mountain. Big imporvement. Not perfect butter better.
The reason why mobs appear to get stuck is that they have world collision on their models but the pathing is all wrong so they walk through some objects and the model seperates from the data due to collision. This could be removed greatly by simply removing world collision from the models and improving their pathing.
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
Well, look:
I don't think they can't make any improvements, but all that stuff is basically, well, basic. It is done in a lot of games in the last decade, it works really good for the most games, and they have licensed a AAA Engine with all of that stuff working in its core. I understand that setting up a Client based MMORPG is a different thing, but they don't start from 0.
Why do people don't understand, that such basic things are expected from the normal player nowadays? I don't like paying highest prices and getting lowest standards for it, this is not supposed to be fun.
So tell me a good reason for further paying that test balloon of SV, except the "Indies need friends too" argument.
I am playing now if you do not know how to make a mob go back to it's original position then I do not know what to tell you.
StarVault has recently been making changes^ (since beta)...
Yet, if there was a solid vision and focus from the Development team, Henrik wouldn't have to keep going over the same things, over and over and over... how many times has a 2-hand sword fighting, or Stealing been altered, changed, redone, looked at...?
Henrik spins his wheels with all the lip-service, yet never delivers... I was in beta & bought MO 2 years ago.. still no Tindrem. The real fans of MO left and won't come back until Henrik produces.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
This "stress test" is nothing but more propaganda load of crap to feed his sheep.
That part in red is so moronic I fail to understand how even the Average Joe with IQ=60 can even consider buying it. If he REALLY wanted to stress test the AI then he would have added in terrain with walls, items, doodads, etc all with individual collision models that simultaneously interact with these NPCs. This way you could have seen the NPC models interacting in real time with the kimuru AND terrain/placeables while firing out their AI conditions being under the entire scope of unit pathing VS terrain, inanimates and doodads. I would have personally used a maze with low hedge walls or the Union Jack shaped water filled trenches and have my models interact inside this area to seriously put the AI to the test. Not some blank, empty, horizontal safe box and have the audacity to call it a "stress test".
But Daddy's boy knows that if he REALLY starts to stress test his POS then its going to fall apart in a way that even "editing" wouldnt be able to salvage it, the "lack of visibility" is another gimmick that he learnt during his masters degree in the Used Car Salesmen Selling Snake Oil Uni. Just like how it would fall apart on the live server. But he doesnt want his trusting fanboys (or a few trusting players he has other than fanbots) to know that, not like they would belive it anyway even with visual proof.
Notice the segment from 1:04 to 1:10, before the fade out, in this "edited" video. It just makes his lies look all the more pathetic even after he himself "edited" it with his own incompetent hands. While that kimuru is chucking a big chunk of rock, the NPCs on the receiving end start to die / gore out even WAY BEFORE the rock lands and hits them. So is this another place his grand prediction system shines or was his game "overstressed" even in these simple conditions? So looking at this video, I wonder would players start to die out even before contact is made just like how these NPCs with the most marvelous AI did?
Then why the hell is he showing off something that ISNT going to be in the game?!
Oh yea...its just like videos from launchtime. This fool always ends up showing stuff that isnt there after all...like eh...been so long but wasnt it dragons, tindrem, townlife and whatnot? And if it is a video about something that is in the game then it is incomplete without a horse running around with its head stuck in the ground, people moonwalking on the surface or players getting hit by invisible people just like what the usual unedited videos have.
What Henrick is doing here is just throwing you MO fanboys and players a bone to chew on till you wait (and PAY for MO) for this Awakening patch to go live. No developer with half a brain would release "edited" videos of content that wouldnt be in game after suffering from such bad reputation for over hyping with missing content like what SV does. They should show uncut videos of stuff that Will hit live server as it is or shut their mouths and work on the game without leading people on with little morsels of misinformation.
I see so many probable errors and bugs with what sebastien (if thats his name) is saying about the AI, but I wont point out to anything since I dont want SV to realize where they are going wrong, especially not over My random forum post by any chance. I would rather see them release it broken and suffer their players' wrath later hah!
So if Henrick or Starvault's voluntary GM Theia wants to come here and talk about why I called this "Stress test" a load of propaganda BS then I would happily engage you two in conversation. Just post the unedited video before you do come here though, from spawning all the units to when the kimuru wipes out all enemy flagged units or itself dies.
For all the naysayers of what MO is....
What games are you currently playing over Mortal and why?
If its EVE, UO, or some other sandbox then props to you, I guess its your choice of what you want to play.
If you play single-player games or themeparks you just wouldnt understand anyway.
Why do you guys always have to slash everything down with this HENRIK is a lier and nothin good will ever get out MO?
Im happy to see what they are doing, and i really hope they will improve the game significantly. That is why i pay them, I HOPE that they will improve and make it playable and be that game i really want i to be. If they dont succed, then alright, it was worth a try (to me). You never get anywhere if you dont try or support ppl.
It really comes down to... are there any other game that comes close to the sandbox game we all want?
well, to me this game seems to be closes, both in terms of features (currently there, but also what they would like to implement) and graphics, and ill support it as long as i dont see any other alternatives, what else can i do? Do nothing wont help.. do something and at least there a chance.. the perfect game is out of our hands and put in someone elses hand.. support them or dont, but dont try to kill them..
Ahh the old "pay for it and it will come" arguement. Well I have been paying for MO going on almost a year and a half and Awakening is the last chance I am giving them. If it goes by like Dawn I am going to quit.
Giving SV's patches since I have been playing I am not looking at it through rose colored glasses like some of the people I see posting on here.
Thats not the point... You can do either of the two:
1) Pay and there might be a chance it can develop further
2) Keep saying they are shit and try to get everyone away from the game and there is almost zero chance it will ever develop further.
I think you have given them a fair chance, my patiance will also run out eventually, but in the meantime ill try to do my part in making this a better game.. There is little else i can do... I dont know how to program a game.. And it doesnt seem to be any other games planned which can fill the sandbox gap i have..
You can acutally say, my love for sandbox games is bigger than my "hate" towards SV/HENRIK...
I agree with this and have played basically since the beginning. There were people that said the above when desync was going on and at the beginning and I didnt think the fanboi-ism was remotely warranted. But now the game has really gotten better and in my opinion, the next expansion (as long as it eventually works) will make this game truly awesome.
Yes, SV needs to do something so we can honestly say that you cant exploit into keeps. And they need to make sure "Failed" gets fixed in huge battles. But other than that all they need to do is come up with more tools and sand.
What was wrong with Dawn now other than a tutorial system that still can intimidate people?
That looked really, really dumb.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
This doesn't exactly sound like the best way to calculate this to me.. I don't have a better suggestion ready though, but... Sounds like just an approximation to something that should have been handled a totally different way