If the central zone cap is reached you'll still be able to go raid opponents relics (or whatever they're called) for a nice stab in the back at a very inopportune time.
If you have 400 friends that all play GW2 on the same server as you and you can get them all to log in at the same time for a coordinated attack, you may be the best Guild Leader that has ever existed. That's 10 old-school WoW 40 man raids, simultaneously. You know how hard it was to keep a single 40 man raid together all the way through MC or BWL, especially when you were learning the fights?
I take it you have never seen a mass zerg gulid before? There was more then one guild in Warhammer who could pull this number and then some.
I've seen zerg guilds that have 400+ members. I've never seen one that could organize enough to mobilize 400 people.
There's a bunch around with multiple thousands of members, some with that many members all in the one game. Usually only at a game release will they have that many active players though, a few months down the line they all decline significantly and usually dissapear.
If you have 400 friends that all play GW2 on the same server as you and you can get them all to log in at the same time for a coordinated attack, you may be the best Guild Leader that has ever existed. That's 10 old-school WoW 40 man raids, simultaneously. You know how hard it was to keep a single 40 man raid together all the way through MC or BWL, especially when you were learning the fights?
I take it you have never seen a mass zerg gulid before? There was more then one guild in Warhammer who could pull this number and then some.
I've seen zerg guilds that have 400+ members. I've never seen one that could organize enough to mobilize 400 people.
Multiple guilds organized simultaneously in WAR. You'd have guild leaders determining overall strategy over private channels and then relaying objectives to their members. You would have up to 10-15 warbands of 24 members each per side coordinating on a single map at a time.
We also need to consider the length of the battles. I'm pretty sure zerg fatigue is going to set in at some point considering they need to keep it up for a week.
The Northern Coalition had a fleet battle against the Russians in EVE more than a year ago that ended up seeing over 3000 ships in the system at its peak. Of course EVE is just one big server but still. 400 is doable I think.
That said, do you really think ArenaNet hasn't thought of this?
I do expect that we will see the cap on the center map raised though if it is as big as they say.
Well if they cap and area at 500 total and make 166 per side caps as well, problem solved.
A cap that is a 3rd of the zone cap will never happen. The intention is for the other 2 sides to have to band together to oppose a stronger force if the situation arises. A cap of somewhere around 250 would make more sense.
For a time in DAoC, we regularly got probably 300 - 500+ people total from all three factions in a zone to fight. At the time, I had like the graphics card below the supported spec, and it was horribly laggy but fun. If they do this right, I do not think we will have any problem getting these kind of numbers, as long as the server max populations are not kept low, then it would be harder.
Planetside had those sorts of numbers in fights regularly with fps combat (albeit cs). For tor there were a number of large guilds with excess of 300 members, the guild I was in (not a spam invite guild) in the first few weeks could pull 150+ concurrent players with an event notice.
If the game is decent I can guarantee you that without server caps there will be guilds able to lock a 500 slot server. In fact if there is no server cap and you find yourself on the same server as the Red Army... reroll.
But having said that I'm sure Anet will have taken this into account, it's pretty basic and will counter either with server caps or mechanics (decreasing gains for poor allocation of troops). It will almost certainly be an ongoing test on their part with adjustments to give the best gameplay experience.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
The Northern Coalition had a fleet battle against the Russians in EVE more than a year ago that ended up seeing over 3000 ships in the system at its peak. Of course EVE is just one big server but still. 400 is doable I think.
That said, do you really think ArenaNet hasn't thought of this?
I do expect that we will see the cap on the center map raised though if it is as big as they say.
That is probably an ongoing effort of optimizations, like EVE was also struggling recently to make higher-scale combat possible (afaik they were do design a time dilation mechanic to compensate for the overwhelming input the server would be receiving or something like that).
I played DAoC for a few year and let me say this. Its not often you see a war of more then 100-150 a side. It takes a lot to pull off that many players. Also Anet has said they are trying to make it fit more then 500 a map. Thats already 2000 players in the open world area and they want to make it bigger capacity. Honestly I will be shocked if this ever gets close to the cap even on peek times on the most populated servers.
In objective wars like this no side will want everyone on one map as this means you win one area and lose the war. People will see whats already going on and move to new areas that need taking and defending. Thats how objective wars work.
I would be more concerned about performance issues of people's connections and machines with that kind of population than I would the actual number.
If this (or any) game can handle 500 people fighting and casting, and things run smoothly at a high setting and look good, and dont crash, and dont lag severely, I will fight the other 499 alone and die repeatedly, and happily.
While its not an unimportant consideration, it is easy enough to fix by Anet if it becomes problematic.
The main thing they need to do and be aware of, is putting servers together who operate on the same peak times. If you put an East and West coast server together, week day play will be hell.
I have never seen 500 players in 1 zone in any MMO in my entire life; and I have played some WoW (the most "popular" MMO) on a high pop server. 500 is a LOT of players. And, of course, as an above poster said, all these numbers--in this thread and others--are merely speculatory at present time.
Tried this. 300 vs 300 vs 300 in Planetside. Was one of the most amazing and beautiful experiences I have ever seen in my gaming life.
A moment from film that is comparable? the opening beach scene from Saving Private Ryan, or the intro in terminator 2. that sense of massive war, is what you feel, when you are skewed with and against such an enourmous force. you truly feel like your just a tiny spec. It's AMAZING.
There is a maximum of 500 players allowed in each of the 4 areas, now imagine that me and my friends march intoo a zone with an army of 400. .. then none of the 2 other servers can get enough people in that zone to defend anything...
On top of that most people will probably want to fight in the middle zone... which makes that zone easilly overpopulated... and when the zone is full, noboddy can tresspass through it to other zones... I think the 500 people/zone max will call out for a lot of frustrations, when there is an important battle going on and people can't join it...
If you have 400 friends that all play GW2 on the same server as you and you can get them all to log in at the same time for a coordinated attack, you may be the best Guild Leader that has ever existed. That's 10 old-school WoW 40 man raids, simultaneously. You know how hard it was to keep a single 40 man raid together all the way through MC or BWL, especially when you were learning the fights?
There is a maximum of 500 players allowed in each of the 4 areas, now imagine that me and my friends march intoo a zone with an army of 400. .. then none of the 2 other servers can get enough people in that zone to defend anything...
On top of that most people will probably want to fight in the middle zone... which makes that zone easilly overpopulated... and when the zone is full, noboddy can tresspass through it to other zones... I think the 500 people/zone max will call out for a lot of frustrations, when there is an important battle going on and people can't join it...
If you have 400 friends that all play GW2 on the same server as you and you can get them all to log in at the same time for a coordinated attack, you may be the best Guild Leader that has ever existed. That's 10 old-school WoW 40 man raids, simultaneously. You know how hard it was to keep a single 40 man raid together all the way through MC or BWL, especially when you were learning the fights?
Ive gotten together 120 + b4.
Largest I have been in was just under 500 players and that was the most epic thing I have ever seen online. I cant even picture 2000 players running around on a map.
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk You're forgetting relics in the home zones... If the central zone cap is reached you'll still be able to go raid opponents relics (or whatever they're called) for a nice stab in the back at a very inopportune time.
Basically this. If you front load 400+ people into one area, you are leaving yourself exposed in multiple other areas.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
and this is why we can't have nice things ... people come up with "flaws" even before they se it in action. and people cry way too much about being zerged ...
so thus we are stuck with battlegrounds with even sides. and people then cry when games do that .... "y u no make open pvp?!!?"
if someone can get 400 people together and go into the mists they deserve to own it all ... however they will not have that 400 person army throughout the whole 2 weeks.
and if they do then well they were just more coordinated than the other servers and deserve to win.
I played DAoC for a few year and let me say this. Its not often you see a war of more then 100-150 a side. It takes a lot to pull off that many players. Also Anet has said they are trying to make it fit more then 500 a map. Thats already 2000 players in the open world area and they want to make it bigger capacity. Honestly I will be shocked if this ever gets close to the cap even on peek times on the most populated servers.
In objective wars like this no side will want everyone on one map as this means you win one area and lose the war. People will see whats already going on and move to new areas that need taking and defending. Thats how objective wars work.
This!!
www is only a part of the game, not everybody will join at the same time.
There is a maximum of 500 players allowed in each of the 4 areas, now imagine that me and my friends march intoo a zone with an army of 400. .. then none of the 2 other servers can get enough people in that zone to defend anything...
On top of that most people will probably want to fight in the middle zone... which makes that zone easilly overpopulated... and when the zone is full, noboddy can tresspass through it to other zones... I think the 500 people/zone max will call out for a lot of frustrations, when there is an important battle going on and people can't join it...
There is a maximum of 500 players allowed in each of the 4 areas, now imagine that me and my friends march intoo a zone with an army of 400. .. then none of the 2 other servers can get enough people in that zone to defend anything...
On top of that most people will probably want to fight in the middle zone... which makes that zone easilly overpopulated... and when the zone is full, noboddy can tresspass through it to other zones... I think the 500 people/zone max will call out for a lot of frustrations, when there is an important battle going on and people can't join it...
If you have 400 friends that all play GW2 on the same server as you and you can get them all to log in at the same time for a coordinated attack, you may be the best Guild Leader that has ever existed. That's 10 old-school WoW 40 man raids, simultaneously. You know how hard it was to keep a single 40 man raid together all the way through MC or BWL, especially when you were learning the fights?
Ive gotten together 120 + b4.
Largest I have been in was just under 500 players and that was the most epic thing I have ever seen online. I cant even picture 2000 players running around on a map.
You should check out - that's "only" 1000 players, and yet... holy crap.
Well I guess after so many people suggested the same fix to this "supposed flaw" that the OP brought up. That is to cap the amount of players allowed on a map, from each server, to between 200 & 250 (no sharding). Then it is pretty obvious that the problem has been brought up during testing and is dealt with. Heck, I'd be surprised if it wasn't, because even I thought about this potential issue and solution, last year when ArenaNet started throwing around that 500 per map number.
There is a maximum of 500 players allowed in each of the 4 areas, now imagine that me and my friends march intoo a zone with an army of 400. .. then none of the 2 other servers can get enough people in that zone to defend anything...
On top of that most people will probably want to fight in the middle zone... which makes that zone easilly overpopulated... and when the zone is full, noboddy can tresspass through it to other zones... I think the 500 people/zone max will call out for a lot of frustrations, when there is an important battle going on and people can't join it...
The issue has plagued MMOs for years and is still current.
It's the main reason why new MMOs focus on BG/Warzone/Warfronts, where controlling populations is managable. Cause nobody wants this:
I dont think you guys realize how small a server really is.
This isnt like the old days of MMOS with 3,000 people on the Merlin server. GW2 will most likely go with what most mmo servers go with today. Heavy servers are barely over 1k players. So most servers will only have about 500 to 1k on them.
And between other forms of PvP, and the PvE only a handfull will be there at any givin time.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
I can only imagine the tears and rage if servers fail to hold 500 players in PVP and game crashes or runs horribly with so many players running around. A lot of MMOS have made tall claims before like WAR and AOC but never delieverd when it comes to large number of players in PVP zones.
Comments
You're forgetting relics in the home zones...
If the central zone cap is reached you'll still be able to go raid opponents relics (or whatever they're called) for a nice stab in the back at a very inopportune time.
There's a bunch around with multiple thousands of members, some with that many members all in the one game. Usually only at a game release will they have that many active players though, a few months down the line they all decline significantly and usually dissapear.
Multiple guilds organized simultaneously in WAR. You'd have guild leaders determining overall strategy over private channels and then relaying objectives to their members. You would have up to 10-15 warbands of 24 members each per side coordinating on a single map at a time.
It's called "Realm Pride" you know.
We also need to consider the length of the battles. I'm pretty sure zerg fatigue is going to set in at some point considering they need to keep it up for a week.
Archlinux ftw
The Northern Coalition had a fleet battle against the Russians in EVE more than a year ago that ended up seeing over 3000 ships in the system at its peak. Of course EVE is just one big server but still. 400 is doable I think.
That said, do you really think ArenaNet hasn't thought of this?
I do expect that we will see the cap on the center map raised though if it is as big as they say.
All die, so die well.
I really dont think that one server pop will be capping another server pop
This would be extremely dumb
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
For a time in DAoC, we regularly got probably 300 - 500+ people total from all three factions in a zone to fight. At the time, I had like the graphics card below the supported spec, and it was horribly laggy but fun. If they do this right, I do not think we will have any problem getting these kind of numbers, as long as the server max populations are not kept low, then it would be harder.
OP you're right, it's a potential problem. But there are ways around it.
For a "harsh" solution they could cap each realm to 167ish players per zone. Or they could just cap a single realm to 250 players per zone.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Planetside had those sorts of numbers in fights regularly with fps combat (albeit cs). For tor there were a number of large guilds with excess of 300 members, the guild I was in (not a spam invite guild) in the first few weeks could pull 150+ concurrent players with an event notice.
If the game is decent I can guarantee you that without server caps there will be guilds able to lock a 500 slot server. In fact if there is no server cap and you find yourself on the same server as the Red Army... reroll.
But having said that I'm sure Anet will have taken this into account, it's pretty basic and will counter either with server caps or mechanics (decreasing gains for poor allocation of troops). It will almost certainly be an ongoing test on their part with adjustments to give the best gameplay experience.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
That is probably an ongoing effort of optimizations, like EVE was also struggling recently to make higher-scale combat possible (afaik they were do design a time dilation mechanic to compensate for the overwhelming input the server would be receiving or something like that).
I played DAoC for a few year and let me say this. Its not often you see a war of more then 100-150 a side. It takes a lot to pull off that many players. Also Anet has said they are trying to make it fit more then 500 a map. Thats already 2000 players in the open world area and they want to make it bigger capacity. Honestly I will be shocked if this ever gets close to the cap even on peek times on the most populated servers.
In objective wars like this no side will want everyone on one map as this means you win one area and lose the war. People will see whats already going on and move to new areas that need taking and defending. Thats how objective wars work.
I would be more concerned about performance issues of people's connections and machines with that kind of population than I would the actual number.
If this (or any) game can handle 500 people fighting and casting, and things run smoothly at a high setting and look good, and dont crash, and dont lag severely, I will fight the other 499 alone and die repeatedly, and happily.
While its not an unimportant consideration, it is easy enough to fix by Anet if it becomes problematic.
The main thing they need to do and be aware of, is putting servers together who operate on the same peak times. If you put an East and West coast server together, week day play will be hell.
Tried this. 300 vs 300 vs 300 in Planetside. Was one of the most amazing and beautiful experiences I have ever seen in my gaming life.
A moment from film that is comparable? the opening beach scene from Saving Private Ryan, or the intro in terminator 2. that sense of massive war, is what you feel, when you are skewed with and against such an enourmous force. you truly feel like your just a tiny spec. It's AMAZING.
Ive gotten together 120 + b4.
Largest I have been in was just under 500 players and that was the most epic thing I have ever seen online. I cant even picture 2000 players running around on a map.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
and this is why we can't have nice things ... people come up with "flaws" even before they se it in action. and people cry way too much about being zerged ...
so thus we are stuck with battlegrounds with even sides. and people then cry when games do that .... "y u no make open pvp?!!?"
if someone can get 400 people together and go into the mists they deserve to own it all ... however they will not have that 400 person army throughout the whole 2 weeks.
and if they do then well they were just more coordinated than the other servers and deserve to win.
This!!
www is only a part of the game, not everybody will join at the same time.
Maybe the sun won't come up tomorrow.
You should check out
- that's "only" 1000 players, and yet... holy crap.
Well I guess after so many people suggested the same fix to this "supposed flaw" that the OP brought up. That is to cap the amount of players allowed on a map, from each server, to between 200 & 250 (no sharding). Then it is pretty obvious that the problem has been brought up during testing and is dealt with. Heck, I'd be surprised if it wasn't, because even I thought about this potential issue and solution, last year when ArenaNet started throwing around that 500 per map number.
Should be no cap at all. Gives us try open world PvP battles.
I dont think you guys realize how small a server really is.
This isnt like the old days of MMOS with 3,000 people on the Merlin server. GW2 will most likely go with what most mmo servers go with today. Heavy servers are barely over 1k players. So most servers will only have about 500 to 1k on them.
And between other forms of PvP, and the PvE only a handfull will be there at any givin time.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
That's probably the goal. It's more a matter of current level of network technology and player hardware limiting what is possible.
I can only imagine the tears and rage if servers fail to hold 500 players in PVP and game crashes or runs horribly with so many players running around. A lot of MMOS have made tall claims before like WAR and AOC but never delieverd when it comes to large number of players in PVP zones.