Er, exploration involves things to explore. Being afraid of what's around the next corner, and having extreme punishments for experimentation is actually fairly detrimental to a game's exploration.
A game can certainly make exploration a big part of gameplay without requiring excessive punishment. Most players really aren't interested in being punished during gameplay -- only the masochistic ones are, who make up a very small portion.
He wasn't saying he wanted to round a corner and be brutally murdered so he could sit in a death queue with negative experience and a 3 hour stat debuff for it to be fun to him. He is saying it would be nice to have that feeling of pure danger when exploring...where turning a corner could lead to glory, death, or danger. It makes you pay attention to your surroundings because it is dangerous...which is part of the fun.
Thats exactly what I am saying Goadgod. You hit the nail on the head.
Wanting to turn the corner and sometimes face something dangerous is fine. Many (perhaps even most) players want that. I sure do.
It's not fine if the penalty for dying to that danger involves a serious and unnecessary waste of time. Most players definitely don't want that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So, take it from an old CPA, companies that work to 'maximize' profits don't. Because they forget that customer service, which doesn't maximize profits, has benefits. They forget that functionality has benefits. They forget that robust, quality products have benefits.
The epitome of 'maximizing profits' was GM during the 1970s. Or look at EA. That's a company driven by maximizing profits and not making good games.
All companies try to maximize profits. That some put a heavier emphasis on customer service or quality products than others doesn't mean that one is trying to maximize profits and another isn't. They merely disagree on the best way to maximize profits.
I completely understand and agree that risk and reward are gone from MMOS. Thats only because the genra is too popular now. There is no more money in that gamestyle because the Masses like games that are easy mode where they win all the time.
The mmo minority are pre WoW clond eaa, the Majority are post WoW clone era.
And therein lies the problem, as many have stated and many already know. What used to be successful (100-200k subs monthly), is now deemed a "failure" by the masses. What used to be amazing, is deemed a grind. Now we are taught to think in millions of subs. And anything less is a failure.
I, too, miss the days of more hardcore mmorpgs.. Where you didn't talk about playing an MMO in the real world.. unless you knew the other person did.
I remember buying one of the expansions for EQ1 - an early expansion, pre SoL. The guy that rang me up got all giddy, because he was looking at someone else that plays EQ!! It was an odd experience. Now, it's the norm.
We will never be able to go back. Even the games we so fondly remember are a dumbed-down shell of their former selves.
Blizzard was brilliant on the business side of things. But no one will ever convince me that they did not kill what was. I don't care how much you love WoW, it's the truth. Is that bad? Wrong? Only a minority of us think so. Therein lies the problem.
Risk. Modern games are just too safe. You know going almost anywhere that you'll win, and usually win easily. When you cannot lose, then winning just isn't the same.
Problem is that people in general don't like losing. When one can always win then they can advance, get strong, and carry around a bunch of shiny gear. Hooray, I'm level capped and have a whole bunch of cute mini-pets, just like everyone else.
Exactly.
For example, I just tried another generic MMO because someone mentioned it had decent pvp. Getting to that requires the traditional safe and simple task hub grind WoW gave us. That's not adventure, thats doing chores. What's the challenge in running over to an area, killing 5 enemies that stand no chance of ever posing a threat to me, that justifies rewarding me? Managing to push the 'forward' key without passing out? They don't even make a pretense of challenging players wits anymore as EQ, DAoC & Beta version of Vanguard did at one time with rumours, clues and rough hints.
When victory is guaranteed, it's busy work - unfortunately so many people that came to the MMO party a bit later than some of us seem to be totally conditioned by this. They'll say 'Hey I like those menial tasks!'. No, you don't - you like the free and easy xp and items they give you for managing to tolerate the mundane long enough to walk 20 feet away and succeeding at clicking on a sparkely bale of hay. If XP and loot only came from sources other than these generic tasks, no one would be doing them. Especially not for the low brow rehashed popculture references in the task text that they'll swear is 'lore'.
Games *have* been better than this. Luckily, now that companies are catching on that the WoW model has gone about as far as it can go we're finally seing some variation on the horizon.
Im glad MMO's aren't like they used to be... I don't want to spend hours getting my corpse back or spending acouple hours traveling to a new loctation. It was fun when I was younger and had time to spare, but nowadays I get on a few hours a week and just want to play and have alittle fun.
This is the reason MMO's are like they are today, maybe these people that don't have time are playing the wrong genre. I mean every year since I started playing MMO's Back with UO it's the casual gamer's that have been crying about " it's to hard, it takes to long, i don't like dying, why can he have that item that i want" I enjoyed playing MMO's because of these reasons as there was no other experiance like it, but these days all these instant fluff so called "gamers" have fucked what was a good thing.
Im glad MMO's aren't like they used to be... I don't want to spend hours getting my corpse back or spending acouple hours traveling to a new loctation. It was fun when I was younger and had time to spare, but nowadays I get on a few hours a week and just want to play and have alittle fun.
This is the reason MMO's are like they are today, maybe these people that don't have time are playing the wrong genre. I mean every year since I started playing MMO's Back with UO it's the casual gamer's that have been crying about " it's to hard, it takes to long, i don't like dying, why can he have that item that i want" I enjoyed playing MMO's because of these reasons as there was no other experiance like it, but these days all these instant fluff so called "gamers" have fucked what was a good thing.
This is also why it is all about box sales now and not monthly subscriptions as well. Dev's know that the players won't stick around long...so they make lots of pretty CGI intros, and add all the same features that made other such games successful to draw the moths to the light. It's also why you can fly to cap in a month...because they know that the players are only interested in "end game" (Again...BS term that NEVER belonged in the MMO genre). It's the ADD generation of today's MMORPG community (Or lack there of) that have no patience...nor have any idea what makes MMORPG's a different genre you can blame for the infinite loop of lack-luster hamster wheel MMO's we have been recieving for the past several years.
They wouldn't bother making it if the fans weren't shouting for it. And the biggest majority shouting for it is just like the quoted above. Just read the above, it reaks of "I personally don't have the time I use to, so I am glad the whole genre has been altered from what it once was to suit MY needs." This is what the majority of the community consists of..... either younger players introduced to MMO's via WoW, or old schoolers who want to hold onto their glory days of MMO fun at the expense of alienating other old schoolers.
Asking for a few MMORPG's to consist of this fast paced system is fine, everyone is entitled to a game to suit their playstyle and what they like. But to whine and cry in every thread that is asking for some old school features with modern updates incorporated like death penalties, longer quests, etc, etc and to fight it tooth and nail is just selfish IMO.
I think that having any sort of awesome MMO is not going to happen. People refuse to give money to indies without a finished product so indies can't afford to make a real MMO and established publishers won't spend the money without demand.
Niche players also have so many specific demands that other niche players don't so they can never organize behind one MMO.
Makes me sad that you all ask for this game, and I rub your noses in it. Yet you are still all on here every day begging for it. Makes no sense. I'm baffled. oh well I wil go back and enjoy the 30 person playerbase, and wait for the wipe.
What really makes me mad is you don't see these casual gamers harrassing nintendo telling them that there are too many levels on Super Mario Brothers. They seem to think that because they don't have the time to play MMO's that MMO's should not offer players any depth or immersion.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Makes me sad that you all ask for this game, and I rub your noses in it. Yet you are still all on here every day begging for it. Makes no sense. I'm baffled. oh well I wil go back and enjoy the 30 person playerbase, and wait for the wipe.
What really makes me mad is you don't see these casual gamers harrassing nintendo telling them that there are too many levels on Super Mario Brothers. They seem to think that because they don't have the time to play MMO's that MMO's should not offer players any depth or immersion.
Saves exist in mario. Also the game is short and single player. Meh.
"Wanting to turn the corner and sometimes face something dangerous is fine. Many (perhaps even most) players want that. I sure do.
It's not fine if the penalty for dying to that danger involves a serious and unnecessary waste of time. Most players definitely don't want that."
This is ludacris. It wouldn't be considered dangerous if you take away the risk. the whole point of feeling excited when exploring is the fact there would be negative effects. It makes a great teaching tool, I think game with harsher deaths produce people who know their class inside and out so you usually get better groups.
Alasti, it is because game developers started listening to player who really wanted to play a different genre of mmo. Players who really wanted to be playing a MOBA or MOFPS style game started playing mmo-rpgs and that drove the numbers up. They whined about what they didn't like and game developers seeing money started making changes to the genre we love. Now our genre is a mutation that makes no one happy. Catering to all types of genre play means no one is happy in the end.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a MOBA or A MOFPS genre game, at times I enjoy them myself. That said I am primarly a mmo-rpg player and all that that entails. I want exploration, I want it to be about the journey and not the destination. I want it to be about role-play, politics, immersion, crafting, commerce etc. I like combat no doubt but I don't want it to be FPS style combat, save that for an MOFPS game. I like pvp or was it actually "used" to be called CvC (character versus character) since player versus player used to be something you didn't want in your game world years and years ago. PvP implied player conflict which wasn't good, players taking it personal. Character versus character was is a different matter.
Anyhow those concepts are dead, buried and gone I won't go on about that aspect. The other parts though I will stick to. The genre needs to stop being made into something it isn't, there are other genres that handle that style game play. Those who find the journey tedious or boring, those who want more wrist/skill fps style combat, there are games for you out there, genres that embrace your style of play, stop trying to change the mmo-rpg genre.
Until technology advanced to the point that the walkman and other such became cost effective to produce, there wasn't a profitable market for them. ^^
The first person to take a step in a different direction, is unlikely to do so with millions upon millions of other peoples money at risk... Thats why the business suits (not the Dev's) call most of the shots in major projects. A "different direction" is by definition risky. Damn few people are going to take that risk (or allow that risk to be taken) with many millions of dollars at stake.
Until these types of projects no longer require millions and millions, the best we can hope for is small changes, that add up over time. Whats funny (and tragic at the same time), is that the first major group that can in fact find another approach is likely to have a run away hit on their hands. But no one in their right mind is going to risk the amount of money, talent, and experience required to achieve that.
You misunderstood me, the point i was trying to make is that by 2004-5 when the iPod boom came noone really believed in walkmans (which were around since 1977 for casettes), everybody kinda expected to use mobile phones for that purpose, like everybody now expects that only console action players are the driving force and only significant part of the market.
Until technology advanced to the point that the walkman and other such became cost effective to produce, there wasn't a profitable market for them. ^^
The first person to take a step in a different direction, is unlikely to do so with millions upon millions of other peoples money at risk... Thats why the business suits (not the Dev's) call most of the shots in major projects. A "different direction" is by definition risky. Damn few people are going to take that risk (or allow that risk to be taken) with many millions of dollars at stake.
Until these types of projects no longer require millions and millions, the best we can hope for is small changes, that add up over time. Whats funny (and tragic at the same time), is that the first major group that can in fact find another approach is likely to have a run away hit on their hands. But no one in their right mind is going to risk the amount of money, talent, and experience required to achieve that.
You misunderstood me, the point i was trying to make is that by 2004-5 when the iPod boom came noone really believed in walkmans (which were around since 1977 for casettes), everybody kinda expected to use mobile phones for that purpose, like everybody now expects that only console action players are the driving force and only significant part of the market.
Flame on!
I am one of those oddities, I keep an mp3 player (32gig) just for my music. I need my phone to have a charge, up and running at all times. I don't want to drain it using it to play games or play music. The devices are so damn small anymore that two small items clipped to my waist take up no space, so they are hardly cumbersome. Not that this has much to do with the topic thread, but since you mentioned it. ;>
Comments
Wanting to turn the corner and sometimes face something dangerous is fine. Many (perhaps even most) players want that. I sure do.
It's not fine if the penalty for dying to that danger involves a serious and unnecessary waste of time. Most players definitely don't want that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
All companies try to maximize profits. That some put a heavier emphasis on customer service or quality products than others doesn't mean that one is trying to maximize profits and another isn't. They merely disagree on the best way to maximize profits.
And therein lies the problem, as many have stated and many already know. What used to be successful (100-200k subs monthly), is now deemed a "failure" by the masses. What used to be amazing, is deemed a grind. Now we are taught to think in millions of subs. And anything less is a failure.
I, too, miss the days of more hardcore mmorpgs.. Where you didn't talk about playing an MMO in the real world.. unless you knew the other person did.
I remember buying one of the expansions for EQ1 - an early expansion, pre SoL. The guy that rang me up got all giddy, because he was looking at someone else that plays EQ!! It was an odd experience. Now, it's the norm.
We will never be able to go back. Even the games we so fondly remember are a dumbed-down shell of their former selves.
Blizzard was brilliant on the business side of things. But no one will ever convince me that they did not kill what was. I don't care how much you love WoW, it's the truth. Is that bad? Wrong? Only a minority of us think so. Therein lies the problem.
Exactly.
For example, I just tried another generic MMO because someone mentioned it had decent pvp. Getting to that requires the traditional safe and simple task hub grind WoW gave us. That's not adventure, thats doing chores. What's the challenge in running over to an area, killing 5 enemies that stand no chance of ever posing a threat to me, that justifies rewarding me? Managing to push the 'forward' key without passing out? They don't even make a pretense of challenging players wits anymore as EQ, DAoC & Beta version of Vanguard did at one time with rumours, clues and rough hints.
When victory is guaranteed, it's busy work - unfortunately so many people that came to the MMO party a bit later than some of us seem to be totally conditioned by this. They'll say 'Hey I like those menial tasks!'. No, you don't - you like the free and easy xp and items they give you for managing to tolerate the mundane long enough to walk 20 feet away and succeeding at clicking on a sparkely bale of hay. If XP and loot only came from sources other than these generic tasks, no one would be doing them. Especially not for the low brow rehashed popculture references in the task text that they'll swear is 'lore'.
Games *have* been better than this. Luckily, now that companies are catching on that the WoW model has gone about as far as it can go we're finally seing some variation on the horizon.
It's about time.
This is the reason MMO's are like they are today, maybe these people that don't have time are playing the wrong genre. I mean every year since I started playing MMO's Back with UO it's the casual gamer's that have been crying about " it's to hard, it takes to long, i don't like dying, why can he have that item that i want" I enjoyed playing MMO's because of these reasons as there was no other experiance like it, but these days all these instant fluff so called "gamers" have fucked what was a good thing.
This is also why it is all about box sales now and not monthly subscriptions as well. Dev's know that the players won't stick around long...so they make lots of pretty CGI intros, and add all the same features that made other such games successful to draw the moths to the light. It's also why you can fly to cap in a month...because they know that the players are only interested in "end game" (Again...BS term that NEVER belonged in the MMO genre). It's the ADD generation of today's MMORPG community (Or lack there of) that have no patience...nor have any idea what makes MMORPG's a different genre you can blame for the infinite loop of lack-luster hamster wheel MMO's we have been recieving for the past several years.
They wouldn't bother making it if the fans weren't shouting for it. And the biggest majority shouting for it is just like the quoted above. Just read the above, it reaks of "I personally don't have the time I use to, so I am glad the whole genre has been altered from what it once was to suit MY needs." This is what the majority of the community consists of..... either younger players introduced to MMO's via WoW, or old schoolers who want to hold onto their glory days of MMO fun at the expense of alienating other old schoolers.
Asking for a few MMORPG's to consist of this fast paced system is fine, everyone is entitled to a game to suit their playstyle and what they like. But to whine and cry in every thread that is asking for some old school features with modern updates incorporated like death penalties, longer quests, etc, etc and to fight it tooth and nail is just selfish IMO.
Don't worry buddy, once I hit the 350 million+ powerball, I will come up with a great MMORPG and get permission to do DUNE.
I will look at UO, AO, Asherons Call, EQ, DAoC, Eve and Pre CU SWG for influence (since I played them all).
I will stay far away from themepark and linear exposure 8)
If my game can maintain 50,000+ active subs worldwide, I will be happy.
Now of course I am pipe dreaming
I think that having any sort of awesome MMO is not going to happen. People refuse to give money to indies without a finished product so indies can't afford to make a real MMO and established publishers won't spend the money without demand.
Niche players also have so many specific demands that other niche players don't so they can never organize behind one MMO.
Makes me sad that you all ask for this game, and I rub your noses in it. Yet you are still all on here every day begging for it. Makes no sense. I'm baffled. oh well I wil go back and enjoy the 30 person playerbase, and wait for the wipe.
What really makes me mad is you don't see these casual gamers harrassing nintendo telling them that there are too many levels on Super Mario Brothers. They seem to think that because they don't have the time to play MMO's that MMO's should not offer players any depth or immersion.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Saves exist in mario. Also the game is short and single player. Meh.
"Wanting to turn the corner and sometimes face something dangerous is fine. Many (perhaps even most) players want that. I sure do.
It's not fine if the penalty for dying to that danger involves a serious and unnecessary waste of time. Most players definitely don't want that."
This is ludacris. It wouldn't be considered dangerous if you take away the risk. the whole point of feeling excited when exploring is the fact there would be negative effects. It makes a great teaching tool, I think game with harsher deaths produce people who know their class inside and out so you usually get better groups.
when you win the lotto can i have a lend
Alasti, it is because game developers started listening to player who really wanted to play a different genre of mmo. Players who really wanted to be playing a MOBA or MOFPS style game started playing mmo-rpgs and that drove the numbers up. They whined about what they didn't like and game developers seeing money started making changes to the genre we love. Now our genre is a mutation that makes no one happy. Catering to all types of genre play means no one is happy in the end.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a MOBA or A MOFPS genre game, at times I enjoy them myself. That said I am primarly a mmo-rpg player and all that that entails. I want exploration, I want it to be about the journey and not the destination. I want it to be about role-play, politics, immersion, crafting, commerce etc. I like combat no doubt but I don't want it to be FPS style combat, save that for an MOFPS game. I like pvp or was it actually "used" to be called CvC (character versus character) since player versus player used to be something you didn't want in your game world years and years ago. PvP implied player conflict which wasn't good, players taking it personal. Character versus character was is a different matter.
Anyhow those concepts are dead, buried and gone I won't go on about that aspect. The other parts though I will stick to. The genre needs to stop being made into something it isn't, there are other genres that handle that style game play. Those who find the journey tedious or boring, those who want more wrist/skill fps style combat, there are games for you out there, genres that embrace your style of play, stop trying to change the mmo-rpg genre.
You misunderstood me, the point i was trying to make is that by 2004-5 when the iPod boom came noone really believed in walkmans (which were around since 1977 for casettes), everybody kinda expected to use mobile phones for that purpose, like everybody now expects that only console action players are the driving force and only significant part of the market.
Flame on!
I am one of those oddities, I keep an mp3 player (32gig) just for my music. I need my phone to have a charge, up and running at all times. I don't want to drain it using it to play games or play music. The devices are so damn small anymore that two small items clipped to my waist take up no space, so they are hardly cumbersome. Not that this has much to do with the topic thread, but since you mentioned it. ;>