Interesting to see crafting rated so low, particularly for RIFT and WOW due to it being "useless", when in fact both games regularly produced items superior to quest items while leveling.
The only argument I could see is that if you spent that time leveling instead of crafting that you'd progress faster overall (and be on higher level quests providing better items.)
The problem wth both games is its tough to keep your craft skill up with your current level, in Rift its actually near impossible.
With WoWs current leveling pace you need to specifically grind crafting. Rift places the level appropriate nodes about 5 levels ahead of where they should be, and the good recipes you buy with faction you outlevel by the time you get the required faction.
And the Rift/WoW model is the generic crafting model. Its mindless and simple.
I just started playing Rift, and while I agree with the grades it received, I'm having tons of fun solely due to the way the class system is laid out. It makes PvP awesome.
The problem wth both games is its tough to keep your craft skill up with your current level, in Rift its actually near impossible.
With WoWs current leveling pace you need to specifically grind crafting. Rift places the level appropriate nodes about 5 levels ahead of where they should be, and the good recipes you buy with faction you outlevel by the time you get the required faction.
And the Rift/WoW model is the generic crafting model. Its mindless and simple.
Well WOW's current level pace has been increased by a lot, but the resource nodes are completely bonkers throughout leveling so it's really not too tough to keep it levelled. (But again, this plays into the argument that time spent skilling isn't time spent leveling.)
I think that was true of RIFT at launch regarding the nodes, at least in one very specific spot (the level 10-20 zone), but I'm not sure if it's true anymore. Certainly it's not true of my mid-level characters I've resumed playing recently, but they're all past that level ~13 awkward spot that plagued RIFT at launch.
Definitely agree with generic crafting not being as interesting.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What sells the most is what most people want. McDonalds is popular for several reasons. Its accessable, you can find one anywhere. Its cost effective and save people time. Of course the big steak house downtown may serve a better meal but it will take up time to get there, time to wait on the meal and cost a lot more. So the fast food / MMO comparison doesnt work. It never did work but people will continue to use it and feel clever. WOW has the most subs because it is what most people, that want an MMO, want. I personally do not want it anymore but I dont delude myself into thinking that everyone wants what I do.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
Is this a joke? WoW's replayability is possibly the worst out of any MMO I have ever played. The only difference is there are different skills on your skillbar when you reroll, same grind, same lack of originality, same boring experience.
Sorry, I felt that the replayablity was much higher in WoW than in TOR. TOR has got to be the worst or tied with the worst for leveling up secondary characters. Rift was also terrible and to me just as tedious and boring. I found WoW had a much higher alt leveling fun factor. Bioware took so many cheesey short cuts with their quest, world, class stuff that it should be a crime.
What sells the most is what most people want. McDonalds is popular for several reasons. Its accessable, you can find one anywhere. Its cost effective and save people time. Of course the big steak house downtown may serve a better meal but it will take up time to get there, time to wait on the meal and cost a lot more. So the fast food / MMO comparison doesnt work. It never did work but people will continue to use it and feel clever. WOW has the most subs because it is what most people, that want an MMO, want. I personally do not want it anymore but I dont delude myself into thinking that everyone wants what I do.
Actually the fast food comparison does work. Too much fast food is bad for society as a whole because its not good for your health or the health of those around you (obesity epidemic etc). Its a downward spiral that needs to be changed for our own good.
But why do you consider McDonalds to be cost effective. Time effective maybe but you can make a home meal for cheaper than you can get food from McDonalds for (and better for you)
"Rift: B- -Dungeon queues are long, but since they wisely marged servers they are no longer dead while leveling, and events actually happen n 20-45 zones,although not super common. Quests kind of suck, but its still fun going throgh zones- the first time"
This one needs to be re-visited. Queues are near instant at 50 and within a few minutes at lower level. 2x DPS lev 2x-3x takes 3-4 mins to get in one.
To that one can only state Captain Obvious: A measurement that is useless is useless.
No, they are not useless. You would see that if you'd set aside your own preferences and bias. People don't play bad games.
This popularity contest is nothing but a popularity contest. Sub numbers measure popularity. That is all. Are you saying that Twilight is a higher quality novel than any piece of classical literature? And even then classics are only read because school makes you.
Quality is a completely subjective concept. So there is NO objective way to measure quality. All methods are subjective.
Which version of WoW are we talking about here? Because the lvling experience, pvp, custamization, and talent trees etc. tend to change every expansion, and sometimes in patches.
This popularity contest is nothing but a popularity contest. Sub numbers measure popularity. That is all. Are you saying that Twilight is a higher quality novel than any piece of classical literature? And even then classics are only read because school makes you.
Quality is a completely subjective concept. So there is NO objective way to measure quality. All methods are subjective.
So very true.
However, people will always use the "10 million people can't be wrong" argument..
What sells the most is what most people want. McDonalds is popular for several reasons. Its accessable, you can find one anywhere. Its cost effective and save people time. Of course the big steak house downtown may serve a better meal but it will take up time to get there, time to wait on the meal and cost a lot more. So the fast food / MMO comparison doesnt work. It never did work but people will continue to use it and feel clever. WOW has the most subs because it is what most people, that want an MMO, want. I personally do not want it anymore but I dont delude myself into thinking that everyone wants what I do.
Actually the fast food comparison does work. Too much fast food is bad for society as a whole because its not good for your health or the health of those around you (obesity epidemic etc). Its a downward spiral that needs to be changed for our own good.
But why do you consider McDonalds to be cost effective. Time effective maybe but you can make a home meal for cheaper than you can get food from McDonalds for (and better for you)
Playing cribbage would be more cost effective than playing a video game as well. But the worn out fast food / wow analogy usually is a comparison of McDonalds VS a quality eating establishment. So eating at home isnt an option for this compraison. As for the government telling me what I should do, for my own good? That is another topic and one that im sure we would disagree on.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
All of the big mmo's are the same game. This realization has only truly begun crystallizing in mmo players' minds in the past year or so.
Sometimes it takes people awhile to come to the realization that they've been playing a game out of habit rather than as a result of being entertained.
This popularity contest is nothing but a popularity contest. Sub numbers measure popularity. That is all. Are you saying that Twilight is a higher quality novel than any piece of classical literature? And even then classics are only read because school makes you.
Quality is a completely subjective concept. So there is NO objective way to measure quality. All methods are subjective.
Again, people do not read bad books. Are you seriously claiming otherwise? I haven't read Twilight, I've not even seen the movies, but because of the book and box office sales, they are good for someone. People do not pay for something they don't like, let alone for the sequels.
I don't go spewing such nonsense that "Twilight is rubbish" because somebody somewhere loves it. Just like I don't say that "WoW is rubbish" because I know that a helluva lot of people love it aswell. WoW simply cannot be a bad game if it is the most popular MMORPG of all time. You'd be mad to claim otherwise! People may not recognize a good thing when it hits them, but they sure as hell will notice the bad - and they will let you know.
Popularity is the onlyobjective indication of quality. Wheter it is a good indication of quality is still your own subjective opinion. Everybody has an opinion but we cannot argue about popularity.
Think about it for a moment.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
This popularity contest is nothing but a popularity contest. Sub numbers measure popularity. That is all. Are you saying that Twilight is a higher quality novel than any piece of classical literature? And even then classics are only read because school makes you.
Quality is a completely subjective concept. So there is NO objective way to measure quality. All methods are subjective.
Again, people do not read bad books. Are you seriously claiming otherwise? I haven't read Twilight, I've not even seen the movies, but because of the book and box office sales, they are good for someone. People do not pay for something they don't like, let alone for the sequels.
I don't go spewing such nonsense that "Twilight is rubbish" because somebody somewhere loves it. Just like I don't say that "WoW is rubbish" because I know that a helluva lot of people love it aswell. WoW simply cannot be a bad game if it is the most popular MMORPG of all time. You'd be mad to claim otherwise! People may not recognize a good thing when it hits them, but they sure as hell will notice the bad - and they will let you know.
Popularity is the onlyobjective indication of quality. Wheter it is a good indication of quality is still your own subjective opinion. Everybody has an opinion but we cannot argue about popularity.
Think about it for a moment.
You keep acting like all choices ever are made in a vacuum and that is dumb. There are all sorts of factors besides quality. For instance several posters on this site argue for WoW style gameplay because they don't have the free time to play games that deal with high activity and long term goals.
The only way that popularity could effectively measure a video game's quality is if we had unlimited free time and no games had any cost associated with them.
In that case people could play the game that was the most fun without obfuscating factors such as cost of sub, amount of free time, or even social opinion on the relative lameness of a given game.
If you continue to refuse to control for obfuscating factors I will have to revise my opinion on the value of your opinion on game topics.
Based on your argument we could conclude that tag, hide and seek, and tic tac toe were the most popular games of all time and that WoW was a useless piece of garbage because WAY more people played those games than WoW.
However subjective, IMO people DO read and ENJOY bad books, watch bad movies, listen to crap music. Sounds contradictory because it is. BAD is subjective. People enjoy things that are good and bad, which leads me to the following point. People buy and enjoy what they know....and marketing determines this for the majority. Mainstream popular music is IMO garbage, but the average shmoe that does not seek out what may be better or more enjoyable, just goes with what is given to them through media, marketing, hype, makes a comfy purchase and is happy. Ignorance is bliss. And the crap train rolls onward.
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Quirhid
This popularity contest is nothing but a popularity contest. Sub numbers measure popularity. That is all. Are you saying that Twilight is a higher quality novel than any piece of classical literature? And even then classics are only read because school makes you. Quality is a completely subjective concept. So there is NO objective way to measure quality. All methods are subjective.
Again, people do not read bad books. Are you seriously claiming otherwise? I haven't read Twilight, I've not even seen the movies, but because of the book and box office sales, they are good for someone. People do not pay for something they don't like, let alone for the sequels. I don't go spewing such nonsense that "Twilight is rubbish" because somebody somewhere loves it. Just like I don't say that "WoW is rubbish" because I know that a helluva lot of people love it aswell. WoW simply cannot be a bad game if it is the most popular MMORPG of all time. You'd be mad to claim otherwise! People may not recognize a good thing when it hits them, but they sure as hell will notice the bad - and they will let you know. Popularity is the only objective indication of quality. Wheter it is a good indication of quality is still your own subjective opinion. Everybody has an opinion but we cannot argue about popularity. Think about it for a moment.
This popularity contest is nothing but a popularity contest. Sub numbers measure popularity. That is all. Are you saying that Twilight is a higher quality novel than any piece of classical literature? And even then classics are only read because school makes you.
Quality is a completely subjective concept. So there is NO objective way to measure quality. All methods are subjective.
Again, people do not read bad books. Are you seriously claiming otherwise? I haven't read Twilight, I've not even seen the movies, but because of the book and box office sales, they are good for someone. People do not pay for something they don't like, let alone for the sequels.
I don't go spewing such nonsense that "Twilight is rubbish" because somebody somewhere loves it. Just like I don't say that "WoW is rubbish" because I know that a helluva lot of people love it aswell. WoW simply cannot be a bad game if it is the most popular MMORPG of all time. You'd be mad to claim otherwise! People may not recognize a good thing when it hits them, but they sure as hell will notice the bad - and they will let you know.
Popularity is the onlyobjective indication of quality. Wheter it is a good indication of quality is still your own subjective opinion. Everybody has an opinion but we cannot argue about popularity.
Think about it for a moment.
You keep acting like all choices ever are made in a vacuum and that is dumb. There are all sorts of factors besides quality. For instance several posters on this site argue for WoW style gameplay because they don't have the free time to play games that deal with high activity and long term goals.
The only way that popularity could effectively measure a video game's quality is if we had unlimited free time and no games had any cost associated with them.
In that case people could play the game that was the most fun without obfuscating factors such as cost of sub, amount of free time, or even social opinion on the relative lameness of a given game.
If you continue to refuse to control for obfuscating factors I will have to revise my opinion on the value of your opinion on game topics.
Based on your argument we could conclude that tag, hide and seek, and tic tac toe were the most popular games of all time and that WoW was a useless piece of garbage because WAY more people played those games than WoW.
Stupid argument is stupid!
I can't help thinking you both are arguing different things.
First of all, he is "sort of' right.
Popularity definitely argues for a type of value.
Whether or not Twilight is better composed than classical literature is something else.
But people like it therefore it has value. If someone writes a novel that is so brilliantly written but no one likes it then what use is it other than "people in the know' appreciating it.
Milton Babbit's music is pretty much the most intricate and well composed music around but how many people really enjoy it?
You are trying to definitively quantify something when that can't be done with anything.
Tag, tic tac toe and whatever else you come up with are great games for the audience that needs them in their development. Far more than WoW would ever be. Later on, those games will lose value as they have taught what they needed to teach and then new gamse can be discovered. Whether that's WoW or something else, (board games, card games, etc) is up to the person.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
This popularity contest is nothing but a popularity contest. Sub numbers measure popularity. That is all. Are you saying that Twilight is a higher quality novel than any piece of classical literature? And even then classics are only read because school makes you.
Quality is a completely subjective concept. So there is NO objective way to measure quality. All methods are subjective.
Again, people do not read bad books. Are you seriously claiming otherwise? I haven't read Twilight, I've not even seen the movies, but because of the book and box office sales, they are good for someone. People do not pay for something they don't like, let alone for the sequels.
I don't go spewing such nonsense that "Twilight is rubbish" because somebody somewhere loves it. Just like I don't say that "WoW is rubbish" because I know that a helluva lot of people love it aswell. WoW simply cannot be a bad game if it is the most popular MMORPG of all time. You'd be mad to claim otherwise! People may not recognize a good thing when it hits them, but they sure as hell will notice the bad - and they will let you know.
Popularity is the onlyobjective indication of quality. Wheter it is a good indication of quality is still your own subjective opinion. Everybody has an opinion but we cannot argue about popularity.
Think about it for a moment.
You keep acting like all choices ever are made in a vacuum and that is dumb. There are all sorts of factors besides quality. For instance several posters on this site argue for WoW style gameplay because they don't have the free time to play games that deal with high activity and long term goals.
The only way that popularity could effectively measure a video game's quality is if we had unlimited free time and no games had any cost associated with them.
In that case people could play the game that was the most fun without obfuscating factors such as cost of sub, amount of free time, or even social opinion on the relative lameness of a given game.
If you continue to refuse to control for obfuscating factors I will have to revise my opinion on the value of your opinion on game topics.
Based on your argument we could conclude that tag, hide and seek, and tic tac toe were the most popular games of all time and that WoW was a useless piece of garbage because WAY more people played those games than WoW.
Stupid argument is stupid!
I can't help thinking you both are arguing different things.
First of all, he is "sort of' right.
Popularity definitely argues for a type of value.
Whether or not Twilight is better composed than classical literature is something else.
But people like it therefore it has value. If someone writes a novel that is so brilliantly written but no one likes it then what use is it other than "people in the know' appreciating it.
Milton Babbit's music is pretty much the most intricate and well composed music around but how many people really enjoy it?
You are trying to definitively quantify something when that can't be done with anything.
Tag, tic tac toe and whatever else you come up with are great games for the audience that needs them in their development. Far more than WoW would ever be. Later on, those games will lose value as they have taught what they needed to teach and then new gamse can be discovered. Whether that's WoW or something else, (board games, card games, etc) is up to the person.
I am arguing that their is no definitive standard for quality. Which is what you are arguing also. He is arguing that popularity is a definitive standard for quality.
He is wrong. Argument ad populum. I never said people don't enjoy popular things either.
I am arguing that their is no definitive standard for quality. Which is what you are arguing also. He is arguing that popularity is a definitive standard for quality.
He is wrong. Argument ad populum. I never said people don't enjoy popular things either.
Ok, thanks for the clarification.
Popularity is not a definitive standard for quality but it is a definitive standard for some sort of ineffable value.
I think he is using Quality as being "something of value and desirability".
There is a quality to that becasue why would anyone like something they thought of as being garbage. Even if there are better constructed examples out there.
That's why I think there is the back and forth.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What sells the most is what most people want. McDonalds is popular for several reasons. Its accessable, you can find one anywhere. Its cost effective and save people time. Of course the big steak house downtown may serve a better meal but it will take up time to get there, time to wait on the meal and cost a lot more. So the fast food / MMO comparison doesnt work. It never did work but people will continue to use it and feel clever. WOW has the most subs because it is what most people, that want an MMO, want. I personally do not want it anymore but I dont delude myself into thinking that everyone wants what I do.
Actually the fast food comparison does work. Too much fast food is bad for society as a whole because its not good for your health or the health of those around you (obesity epidemic etc). Its a downward spiral that needs to be changed for our own good.
But why do you consider McDonalds to be cost effective. Time effective maybe but you can make a home meal for cheaper than you can get food from McDonalds for (and better for you)
Playing cribbage would be more cost effective than playing a video game as well. But the worn out fast food / wow analogy usually is a comparison of McDonalds VS a quality eating establishment. So eating at home isnt an option for this compraison. As for the government telling me what I should do, for my own good? That is another topic and one that im sure we would disagree on.
A. Last data I read supported the notion that (including travel time and expenses) a trip to McDonald's is actually cheaper for low income families than preparing a meal themselves (including travel time, creation time, and expenses). Not that I ever eat there, but that's certainly a factor behind their popularity.
B. WOW is in no way the McD's of MMORPGs. WOW is a steak house priced identically to ten other major steak houses, with millions of customers preferring it to other steak houses. There is no gourmet MMORPG. There is no option to pay more for higher quality. The only reason some of us are dining at non-WOW MMOs is that after 6+ years the food has become too familiar and we're dining elsewhere because at least the sauce is different.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I can't help thinking you both are arguing different things.
First of all, he is "sort of' right.
Popularity definitely argues for a type of value.
Whether or not Twilight is better composed than classical literature is something else.
But people like it therefore it has value. If someone writes a novel that is so brilliantly written but no one likes it then what use is it other than "people in the know' appreciating it.
Milton Babbit's music is pretty much the most intricate and well composed music around but how many people really enjoy it?
You are trying to definitively quantify something when that can't be done with anything.
Tag, tic tac toe and whatever else you come up with are great games for the audience that needs them in their development. Far more than WoW would ever be. Later on, those games will lose value as they have taught what they needed to teach and then new gamse can be discovered. Whether that's WoW or something else, (board games, card games, etc) is up to the person.
I am arguing that their is no definitive standard for quality. Which is what you are arguing also. He is arguing that popularity is a definitive standard for quality.
He is wrong. Argument ad populum. I never said people don't enjoy popular things either.
I never argued that popularity is a definitive standard for quality. I stated that popularity, the amount of sales/subs, is the only objective measurement that gives indication to quality. Some quality is implied because people don't play garbage. I made no such claim as "a game is popular therefore the game is good".
I don't know if you just hate WoW so much that you can't see it, but for me this is a no-brainer. And I don't even care about World of Warcraft.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Runescape A+
huehuehue
Oh yeah and my grades matter because mum says I'm smart!
The problem wth both games is its tough to keep your craft skill up with your current level, in Rift its actually near impossible.
With WoWs current leveling pace you need to specifically grind crafting. Rift places the level appropriate nodes about 5 levels ahead of where they should be, and the good recipes you buy with faction you outlevel by the time you get the required faction.
And the Rift/WoW model is the generic crafting model. Its mindless and simple.
I just started playing Rift, and while I agree with the grades it received, I'm having tons of fun solely due to the way the class system is laid out. It makes PvP awesome.
Well WOW's current level pace has been increased by a lot, but the resource nodes are completely bonkers throughout leveling so it's really not too tough to keep it levelled. (But again, this plays into the argument that time spent skilling isn't time spent leveling.)
I think that was true of RIFT at launch regarding the nodes, at least in one very specific spot (the level 10-20 zone), but I'm not sure if it's true anymore. Certainly it's not true of my mid-level characters I've resumed playing recently, but they're all past that level ~13 awkward spot that plagued RIFT at launch.
Definitely agree with generic crafting not being as interesting.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!
Yes, the sun magazine and the bildzeitung are the best newspapers ever.
McDonalds and Burger King are the best restaurants you can visit.
Britney Spears and I dont dare even naming the *** thats currently most "popular" in "music" are the best musicians.
People, eat shit, millions of flies cant be wrong !
If that makes you sleep at night and feel superior then thats alright, I suppose. ...
Sub numbers or sales really are the only objective method to measure games. Rest are all more or less subjective. What Kimmyboy wrote was true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
To that one can only state Captain Obvious: A measurement that is useless is useless.
What sells the most is what most people want. McDonalds is popular for several reasons. Its accessable, you can find one anywhere. Its cost effective and save people time. Of course the big steak house downtown may serve a better meal but it will take up time to get there, time to wait on the meal and cost a lot more. So the fast food / MMO comparison doesnt work. It never did work but people will continue to use it and feel clever. WOW has the most subs because it is what most people, that want an MMO, want. I personally do not want it anymore but I dont delude myself into thinking that everyone wants what I do.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
Sorry, I felt that the replayablity was much higher in WoW than in TOR. TOR has got to be the worst or tied with the worst for leveling up secondary characters. Rift was also terrible and to me just as tedious and boring. I found WoW had a much higher alt leveling fun factor. Bioware took so many cheesey short cuts with their quest, world, class stuff that it should be a crime.
Actually the fast food comparison does work. Too much fast food is bad for society as a whole because its not good for your health or the health of those around you (obesity epidemic etc). Its a downward spiral that needs to be changed for our own good.
But why do you consider McDonalds to be cost effective. Time effective maybe but you can make a home meal for cheaper than you can get food from McDonalds for (and better for you)
"Rift: B- -Dungeon queues are long, but since they wisely marged servers they are no longer dead while leveling, and events actually happen n 20-45 zones,although not super common. Quests kind of suck, but its still fun going throgh zones- the first time"
This one needs to be re-visited. Queues are near instant at 50 and within a few minutes at lower level. 2x DPS lev 2x-3x takes 3-4 mins to get in one.
No, they are not useless. You would see that if you'd set aside your own preferences and bias. People don't play bad games.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
This popularity contest is nothing but a popularity contest. Sub numbers measure popularity. That is all. Are you saying that Twilight is a higher quality novel than any piece of classical literature? And even then classics are only read because school makes you.
Quality is a completely subjective concept. So there is NO objective way to measure quality. All methods are subjective.
Which version of WoW are we talking about here? Because the lvling experience, pvp, custamization, and talent trees etc. tend to change every expansion, and sometimes in patches.
Also my penis is bigger.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
So very true.
However, people will always use the "10 million people can't be wrong" argument..
Playing cribbage would be more cost effective than playing a video game as well. But the worn out fast food / wow analogy usually is a comparison of McDonalds VS a quality eating establishment. So eating at home isnt an option for this compraison. As for the government telling me what I should do, for my own good? That is another topic and one that im sure we would disagree on.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
All of the big mmo's are the same game. This realization has only truly begun crystallizing in mmo players' minds in the past year or so.
Sometimes it takes people awhile to come to the realization that they've been playing a game out of habit rather than as a result of being entertained.
Again, people do not read bad books. Are you seriously claiming otherwise? I haven't read Twilight, I've not even seen the movies, but because of the book and box office sales, they are good for someone. People do not pay for something they don't like, let alone for the sequels.
I don't go spewing such nonsense that "Twilight is rubbish" because somebody somewhere loves it. Just like I don't say that "WoW is rubbish" because I know that a helluva lot of people love it aswell. WoW simply cannot be a bad game if it is the most popular MMORPG of all time. You'd be mad to claim otherwise! People may not recognize a good thing when it hits them, but they sure as hell will notice the bad - and they will let you know.
Popularity is the only objective indication of quality. Wheter it is a good indication of quality is still your own subjective opinion. Everybody has an opinion but we cannot argue about popularity.
Think about it for a moment.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You keep acting like all choices ever are made in a vacuum and that is dumb. There are all sorts of factors besides quality. For instance several posters on this site argue for WoW style gameplay because they don't have the free time to play games that deal with high activity and long term goals.
The only way that popularity could effectively measure a video game's quality is if we had unlimited free time and no games had any cost associated with them.
In that case people could play the game that was the most fun without obfuscating factors such as cost of sub, amount of free time, or even social opinion on the relative lameness of a given game.
If you continue to refuse to control for obfuscating factors I will have to revise my opinion on the value of your opinion on game topics.
Based on your argument we could conclude that tag, hide and seek, and tic tac toe were the most popular games of all time and that WoW was a useless piece of garbage because WAY more people played those games than WoW.
Stupid argument is stupid!
However subjective, IMO people DO read and ENJOY bad books, watch bad movies, listen to crap music. Sounds contradictory because it is. BAD is subjective. People enjoy things that are good and bad, which leads me to the following point. People buy and enjoy what they know....and marketing determines this for the majority. Mainstream popular music is IMO garbage, but the average shmoe that does not seek out what may be better or more enjoyable, just goes with what is given to them through media, marketing, hype, makes a comfy purchase and is happy. Ignorance is bliss. And the crap train rolls onward.
I can't help thinking you both are arguing different things.
First of all, he is "sort of' right.
Popularity definitely argues for a type of value.
Whether or not Twilight is better composed than classical literature is something else.
But people like it therefore it has value. If someone writes a novel that is so brilliantly written but no one likes it then what use is it other than "people in the know' appreciating it.
Milton Babbit's music is pretty much the most intricate and well composed music around but how many people really enjoy it?
You are trying to definitively quantify something when that can't be done with anything.
Tag, tic tac toe and whatever else you come up with are great games for the audience that needs them in their development. Far more than WoW would ever be. Later on, those games will lose value as they have taught what they needed to teach and then new gamse can be discovered. Whether that's WoW or something else, (board games, card games, etc) is up to the person.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am arguing that their is no definitive standard for quality. Which is what you are arguing also. He is arguing that popularity is a definitive standard for quality.
He is wrong. Argument ad populum. I never said people don't enjoy popular things either.
Ok, thanks for the clarification.
Popularity is not a definitive standard for quality but it is a definitive standard for some sort of ineffable value.
I think he is using Quality as being "something of value and desirability".
There is a quality to that becasue why would anyone like something they thought of as being garbage. Even if there are better constructed examples out there.
That's why I think there is the back and forth.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A. Last data I read supported the notion that (including travel time and expenses) a trip to McDonald's is actually cheaper for low income families than preparing a meal themselves (including travel time, creation time, and expenses). Not that I ever eat there, but that's certainly a factor behind their popularity.
B. WOW is in no way the McD's of MMORPGs. WOW is a steak house priced identically to ten other major steak houses, with millions of customers preferring it to other steak houses. There is no gourmet MMORPG. There is no option to pay more for higher quality. The only reason some of us are dining at non-WOW MMOs is that after 6+ years the food has become too familiar and we're dining elsewhere because at least the sauce is different.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I never argued that popularity is a definitive standard for quality. I stated that popularity, the amount of sales/subs, is the only objective measurement that gives indication to quality. Some quality is implied because people don't play garbage. I made no such claim as "a game is popular therefore the game is good".
I don't know if you just hate WoW so much that you can't see it, but for me this is a no-brainer. And I don't even care about World of Warcraft.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky