"Overall the dungeon was great. The design was smooth, and the progression through it was very rewarding, as everyone got loot. Players were also very helpful with trading the loot right away to strengthen the party. I also felt satisfaction after taking on each obstacle that was in our way. "
This is the part that kills me. When something like this comes along, all new and shiny, with tons of hype, there is a tendency to see everything as wonderful, as seen through rose tinted glasses. I was really following everything Mr. North was saying until I saw this, and then the glass cards fell down. Seriously, when has this ever happened in an MMO with a bunch of strangers dealing with dungeon loot. MAYBE 1% of the time? "Oh I just got this awesome staff, but I can't use it. It's very rare.... here, you can have it". And after that happens, and our PUG finishes the expert dungeon with zero wipes or deaths, we all get together, and sing "Kumbabya", exchange email addresses and phone numbers, and go along our merry way.
In EQ, happened a lot. Now in DDO, people at least roll for it, but I've been in many groups-not just guild ones, but PUGs too, that people give good items to others if not for their class.
Honestly, the fact that the dungeons are THAT difficult is going to be an issue. I can see them scaling them back in difficulty and later adding a hard mode. The dungeons sound a little too "hard core" for the mainstream player base. I think there should be a certain amount of difficulty, but people who play well should be able to finish a dungeon without dying. If a death is "guaranteed" to happen, I think that's a serious design flaw. Most people that play games want to enjoy themselves and not have a negative experience every time they enter some part of the game. It's fine if it happens as a result of bad play, but I don't think that's fine if it's an intended part of game play. I'll reserve judgment for when I get to play my first dungeon on my own however. One thing my experience as a gamer has taught me is that what you often hear versus what you actually experience are often two very different things.
But Anet has said that the dungeons essentially are the one part of the game that would best suit players who are really looking for a pve challenge, similar to raiding in many MMOs. At some point, there has to be some content to provide this challenge to players seeking one, however small a minority. The VAST majority of the pve game--the open world dynamic events, world boss encounters, and your personal storyline--will be sufficiently easy for any player to experience.
You're also not "guaranteed" to die. Each dungeon will just be really hard until everyone learns them, meaning most players will probably die quite a bit at first. But as everyone gets some experience, all runs for players of all skill levels will gradually become smoother and smoother.
In a game that lacks empowering progression incentives for the traditional "hardcore" pve player, achievements and gear sets (even without stat upgrades) from clearing dungeons can serve as the one badge of honor.
If the average or sub-par player has a difficult time in dungeons initially, they need not fret because they will eventually get to complete them as all players improve. Until then, the players who manage to beat the dungeons actually have something to feel accomplished about--at least for a little while.
There's also story-mode dungeons versus explorable mode, so there's room to adjust difficulty to keep both demographics happy.
Or, you know, you can play with friends or guild members, who would also trade items around. MMO's are social games, and can be played with more than just random greedy people.
I do wonder though, if the story modes are 5 man, what happens to players that do wish to simply play on their own? Will they not be able to continue their personal story? Or what if a year after release a new player tried the game, or you roll an alt, and are having a hard time finding a group for the story mode and as such become 'stuck'?
It is an MMO afterall. I dont think its too much to ask that some portion of the game require interaction with other players to complete. There are plenty of things to do that do not require large time investments or finding a particular group that can be enjoyed on the fly. I personally think they will lose more players trying to cater to the few that want a single player RPG for an MMO than by catering to those who actually want to play a multiplayer game.
What I love the most in GW 1 as also in other games, is parts in which Teamwork really matters.
By that I mean not only in PvP in which its obvious, I mean in PvE.
From what I saw and read so far, they took the right approach with this.
Unexperienced teams/players will be able to bond more to overcome the "impossible", find new strategies everytime depending on the classes involved and have something to work on together if they want to put their hands on these rewards.
What some people that said "I don't wanna carry tons of armor with me the whole time" forget is the waypoints system GW2 will offer and GW 1 already offered (In GW 2 is it even improved). This makes easy to say "hey, lets go grab our stuff, prepare and meet at the entrance or tp as a team there".
The other thing is, it makes it not only more fun, it makes it also more real.
I mean noone would love to stay in a cave full of ghosts for just in case a "customer" will come by asking for repair right?
As a matter of fact, with a good coordination, healing/ressurect when needed, no armor will break there.
It doesn't break after the first time, you have at least 6 chances before it does.
Heck, if you got a drop of a cheaper armor there just switch so your precious one won't break if you die once more OR play a more supporting role while the others try to cover you and prevent you from dying again.
Put some good teamwork there and enough effort and the rewards will be yours.
The only people I can think of having issues with that will be:
- rushers
- soloers
- people that need a dictionary to find the word teamwork first
- selfish people that care only about others to cover their butts while they never want to return the favor due to the fact that they are too busy with themselves.
Work together as a team, learn to combo your skills and make them more effective, watch the back of your teammates and the rewards will be yours.
If the press people that had no clue or previous experience with the game could do it, you as mmo experienced players will definately be able to aswell.
As a sidenote: Test it first and if its indeed too cumbersome, post your complain and how do you think it would be better so the devs can eventually adjust things OR talk with others about strategies that would help not only you but also the whole community to finish the instance "easier".
5 man instances(explorable) at GW2 has to be hard since is the only "raid" content that introduce us(i dont count world bosses). 5 man has to be a place that guild members grp up together, use their skills right, coordinate and communicate each other to achieve the pleasure of winning a truly hard opponent.
I am glad to hear that u can repair your gear now since gives you more chances to win(more tries so u can get better without run all the instance again). If they want to give u limited tries at a boss they can add a counter and not reducing your effectiveness at your effort to win an encounter.
ME LIKES!!! The more articles I read about GW2 the more I want to play the game ...
I played a custom UO server where I could spend DAYS in a dungeon running around to get what I needed. However if the guild set to do a run through, we finished in about 2 hours. It is all about the participants.
5 man instances(explorable) at GW2 has to be hard since is the only "raid" content that introduce us(i dont count world bosses). 5 man has to be a place that guild members grp up together, use their skills right, coordinate and communicate each other to achieve the pleasure of winning a truly hard opponent.
I am glad to hear that u can repair your gear now since gives you more chances to win(more tries so u can get better without run all the instance again). If they want to give u limited tries at a boss they can add a counter and not reducing your effectiveness at your effort to win an encounter.
Why don't you count world bosses? In most games I've played, the hard raiding is with uninstanced mobs.
So, this dungeon... how many dungeons are instanced and how many are actually part of the world like a proper MMO?
I dont count world bosses couse we dont know their actual difficulty yet. So far the 2-3 that i ve seen seems pretty much easy/medium difficulty. World bosses in GW2 is something that scales with how many ppl participate but on the other hand i think that tried to make them for all audiences since everyone can participate any time that the event is up.
An another reason is that its hard to coordinate and control so many random ppl together.
I really hope that world bosses will be hard but for the above reasons i dont see it happens and refering to instances as "guild content".
Wasn't too happy to see a person have to confront the last boss with no armor on because of the broken armor thing. He couldn't leave to repair because it would have locked him from the instance.
Take note trolls- THAT is a serious issue the game has.
This is true. Hopefully they'll just put an armor repair person near one of the portals, or allow people to carry kits with them. Because it's not about being hard at this point, but being brutal.
I hope so, because I am all for brutal, but Im also for brutal fun. having to carry extra sets of gear and packing like a boyscout to run a dungeon is more annoying than fun.
you say annoying, i say it just takes more planning....
You know, I played wow all through the original, and even a couple of months into the burning crusade.
I remember people advertising for the wailing caverns... They were LFM or LFG, minimum lvl 20... The loot that dropped in there was lvl 17... I was running it with competent groups starting at lvl 13. It always amazed me how people didn't want to play unless they were so overleveled that it was easy-mode. Guess what, people... It is doable.
For those who recall in DAOC... Treibh Caillte we were in there at 20-25 against lvl 30-35 monsters, etc...
They have made dungeons that require skill to play? Great.
They have made dungeons that require coordination to play? Great
I am sorry if you are one of the people who needs it to be easymode, or who waits till they have outleveled any content sufficiently to take the challenge out of it... But there are enough of us who don't want that, that those dungeons will work... For everyone else, there is plenty of content they can do elsewhere. And you can always come back at higher level to experience the content... even though you will be scaled down, you will still have a massive advantage from traits and stuff.
I'd rather have no modes. Games are suppose to be challenging. Games are suppose to have fail conditions. If you loose all your armor, you have failed start over again. Learn from your mistakes and try it again later. I expect dungeons to be for real rpgers and casual gamers to stay on the surface.
I remember my old days in FF when there were legends of players or groups that beat certain areas early in the game. When anyone at any level can run through soemthing, where's the fun.
Not sure how I want to phrase this, or even if its worth my while given the tone of some of the posts above, but I want to remind people that the main thingwhich the developers have emphasised all along is that they want this game to be FUN. This is clearly stated in the manifesto trailer:
As we all know, fun means different things to different people. You might find it fun to play games which are horrendously difficult (challenging to you, but horrendously difficult to me). I need a balance between challenge and frustration. We are not all the same. We are not all young people with quick reflexes and minds hungry for the next challenge. Some of us (me, for example), are older and some of us (me again) have health problems.
This is not a "poor me" post, btw, just trying to point out that we are all different, and we all want different things from an online game. My illnesses have changed my life so I can't do the things I used to (physical things, outdoors things), so playing games has become ever more important to me as an escape. But, although I'm a perfectionist, and do like to play well, I have to acknowledge I do have limitations (slower than young players, for one) and, although I always try to play well, I do make mistakes (like the OP who rolled off the cliff to his death lol).
Basically, what I'm trying to say is why not celebrate the type of game you like, make clear what aspects you want (eg challenge), but leave out the hate for those of us who get enough challenges trying to survive irl and want a slightly easier time of it than you do in our games?
Finally, interesting that "pussy" is used to denote weakness; what a shame you males can't experience giving birth, eh?
The solutions would be to have backup gear or coordinate well enough to avoid deaths. Tip 1. Rez downed teammates.
I understand the concept of fun, but do you really think the community is looking for easymode dungeons with no chances of failure?
A group of players who just have very little experience with the game found it difficult. They also did complete it. I hardly think this is cause to call for a revamp yet.
See, that would annoy me, having to carry around extra gear just in case someone says, hey lets go in here.
I am all for gear repair kits costing more than the loot you get from a run, making doing it wrong a costly adventure, but it's pure pebble in the shoe stuff like having to carry stuff around for no reason.
That tactic wouldn't work anyway if the gear in your inventory ALSO takes damage. Isn't that how it works in MOST games? Or is that an EQ2 only thing or something. I don't know what I'm remembering it from, but I'm used to ALL the gear I have in my possession taking damage......
yes we are talking about raids. These are raids, if you don't count the outdoor encounters.I fully support their decision. Less face roll in pve. Cry more.
Can I haz a button dat killz da bosses auto? Liek maybe it costs like some gold or sometin. I dunno. Why have a boss wit 50k hp instead of 10? hp
Isn;t it an artifishial barriar? I mean u know hard is not fun right?
Dis just looks 2 hard yano?
I rly am ready to put down farmville 2 play dis game. Pls Arenanet make it assessible 4 me.
Oh snap dog i wanst dat , gib it to meh.
Err a big sord, slay sum muter ..... dragins yo.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Seriously... i read some of posts and im annoyed already. I hope that developers wont make the same mistake as many before and actually listen to these guys. PvE content in terms of raids and dungeons used to be hard, then MMORPG genre became mainstream...
Really now, you guys can go back to farm Badge, Amblem or w/e the "carrot on a stick" is called nowadays. I dont want generic beatable-in-ten-minutes content anymore. Im sick of it and annoyed as hell, as well as im annoyed of spoiled brats that made it to be like that.
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2 Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
Hopefully they keep the game difficult/challenging, I for one do not want another game handed to me. Make me want to play and give the game meaning when you defeat something difficult.
"Its better to look ugly and win than pretty and lose"
Some smart ass troll started this "easy or hard?" thing -)) lol
It takes many deaths to actually damage the item - so if you wipe a few times it's ok - if you wipe 10 times before even reaching the final boss - you should really go level before entering the dungeon another time - so the system is fair. Actually the most involving gameplay was in Diablo 2 - where you can get killed by a random elite mob crit - that is the fun, to feel thrilled by the dungeon, to feel the danger at every corner... not just at the bosses.
I love the idea they have traps in the dungeons. Reminds me of old good times when I played AD&D tabletop and Baldur's Gate series with a friend. It really makes the rogue type skills important (while in WoW-like games you can do better without a rogue in a party, which is silly since the original "holly trinity" is Fighter-Mage-Rogue, not healer-tank-dps).
The only thing I can hope for is RANDOMISATION!!! If two dungeon runs would be different (at least like in Diablo series - random mobs, random traps) it would really make the game much better. I am sick of the dungeon runs when you know every single mob and every f-ing corner in the dungeon, and if you don't - there is a video-guide on you-tube, which you are required to watch if you want to get in a good party.
It all sounds good to me. Everquest was a prime example of death done well. The penalty wasn't over the top, but I remember vividly leveling my barbarian rogue and I came upon something nasty (probably those damn undead in Kithicor) and actually getting away and not losing my level. It wasn't an accomplishment per se. I didn't get a badge, title, trophy or achievement for it, but it was a victory in my mind that even over a decade later I still remember.
Or going into Darkness Falls in DAOC. It wasn't a question of when something was going to go wrong, but really how far could we get before we either got wrecked by the mobs or by opposing realms.
These scenarios are counter-intuitive to fun from the outside looking in. You're avoiding something negative and hoping this is the time your group actually succeeds, but I can assure you these are some of the pinnacles of my long and varied gaming career.
Comments
In EQ, happened a lot. Now in DDO, people at least roll for it, but I've been in many groups-not just guild ones, but PUGs too, that people give good items to others if not for their class.
But Anet has said that the dungeons essentially are the one part of the game that would best suit players who are really looking for a pve challenge, similar to raiding in many MMOs. At some point, there has to be some content to provide this challenge to players seeking one, however small a minority. The VAST majority of the pve game--the open world dynamic events, world boss encounters, and your personal storyline--will be sufficiently easy for any player to experience.
You're also not "guaranteed" to die. Each dungeon will just be really hard until everyone learns them, meaning most players will probably die quite a bit at first. But as everyone gets some experience, all runs for players of all skill levels will gradually become smoother and smoother.
In a game that lacks empowering progression incentives for the traditional "hardcore" pve player, achievements and gear sets (even without stat upgrades) from clearing dungeons can serve as the one badge of honor.
If the average or sub-par player has a difficult time in dungeons initially, they need not fret because they will eventually get to complete them as all players improve. Until then, the players who manage to beat the dungeons actually have something to feel accomplished about--at least for a little while.
There's also story-mode dungeons versus explorable mode, so there's room to adjust difficulty to keep both demographics happy.
It is an MMO afterall. I dont think its too much to ask that some portion of the game require interaction with other players to complete. There are plenty of things to do that do not require large time investments or finding a particular group that can be enjoyed on the fly. I personally think they will lose more players trying to cater to the few that want a single player RPG for an MMO than by catering to those who actually want to play a multiplayer game.
What I love the most in GW 1 as also in other games, is parts in which Teamwork really matters.
By that I mean not only in PvP in which its obvious, I mean in PvE.
From what I saw and read so far, they took the right approach with this.
Unexperienced teams/players will be able to bond more to overcome the "impossible", find new strategies everytime depending on the classes involved and have something to work on together if they want to put their hands on these rewards.
What some people that said "I don't wanna carry tons of armor with me the whole time" forget is the waypoints system GW2 will offer and GW 1 already offered (In GW 2 is it even improved). This makes easy to say "hey, lets go grab our stuff, prepare and meet at the entrance or tp as a team there".
The other thing is, it makes it not only more fun, it makes it also more real.
I mean noone would love to stay in a cave full of ghosts for just in case a "customer" will come by asking for repair right?
As a matter of fact, with a good coordination, healing/ressurect when needed, no armor will break there.
It doesn't break after the first time, you have at least 6 chances before it does.
Heck, if you got a drop of a cheaper armor there just switch so your precious one won't break if you die once more OR play a more supporting role while the others try to cover you and prevent you from dying again.
Put some good teamwork there and enough effort and the rewards will be yours.
The only people I can think of having issues with that will be:
- rushers
- soloers
- people that need a dictionary to find the word teamwork first
- selfish people that care only about others to cover their butts while they never want to return the favor due to the fact that they are too busy with themselves.
Work together as a team, learn to combo your skills and make them more effective, watch the back of your teammates and the rewards will be yours.
If the press people that had no clue or previous experience with the game could do it, you as mmo experienced players will definately be able to aswell.
As a sidenote: Test it first and if its indeed too cumbersome, post your complain and how do you think it would be better so the devs can eventually adjust things OR talk with others about strategies that would help not only you but also the whole community to finish the instance "easier".
5 man instances(explorable) at GW2 has to be hard since is the only "raid" content that introduce us(i dont count world bosses). 5 man has to be a place that guild members grp up together, use their skills right, coordinate and communicate each other to achieve the pleasure of winning a truly hard opponent.
I am glad to hear that u can repair your gear now since gives you more chances to win(more tries so u can get better without run all the instance again). If they want to give u limited tries at a boss they can add a counter and not reducing your effectiveness at your effort to win an encounter.
ME LIKES!!! The more articles I read about GW2 the more I want to play the game ...
I played a custom UO server where I could spend DAYS in a dungeon running around to get what I needed. However if the guild set to do a run through, we finished in about 2 hours. It is all about the participants.
Why don't you count world bosses? In most games I've played, the hard raiding is with uninstanced mobs.
So, this dungeon... how many dungeons are instanced and how many are actually part of the world like a proper MMO?
I dont count world bosses couse we dont know their actual difficulty yet. So far the 2-3 that i ve seen seems pretty much easy/medium difficulty. World bosses in GW2 is something that scales with how many ppl participate but on the other hand i think that tried to make them for all audiences since everyone can participate any time that the event is up.
An another reason is that its hard to coordinate and control so many random ppl together.
I really hope that world bosses will be hard but for the above reasons i dont see it happens and refering to instances as "guild content".
Btw 8 instances. The 1st starts at lvl 30 and +1 for every 10 lvls +3 at lvl 80. Story mode andexplorable mode.
Explorable mode will be the hard one and you ll have 3 paths to chose + dynamic events that random will happens.
so its 3 paths x 8 instances(explorable).
World bosses so far we seen 3 until lvl 50 i think. But i guess much more will be there for us.
you say annoying, i say it just takes more planning....
~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~
I think GW2 will do well initially, but like SWTOR, will tail off.
I feel all MMORPGs should have these features, which GW2 is lacking:
1) Everyone on the same server, so players get reputations.
2) An environment you can change, so it feels a bit like home.
So I'm not convienced that GW2 is quite as worthy as the (marketing) hype makes out.
Just recovered from my last head injury from fainting and then I read this dungeon exp review.. .*faints again*
All hail the Barn Owl! oh.. and the RED SQUIRREL!!!
You know, I played wow all through the original, and even a couple of months into the burning crusade.
I remember people advertising for the wailing caverns... They were LFM or LFG, minimum lvl 20... The loot that dropped in there was lvl 17... I was running it with competent groups starting at lvl 13. It always amazed me how people didn't want to play unless they were so overleveled that it was easy-mode. Guess what, people... It is doable.
For those who recall in DAOC... Treibh Caillte we were in there at 20-25 against lvl 30-35 monsters, etc...
They have made dungeons that require skill to play? Great.
They have made dungeons that require coordination to play? Great
I am sorry if you are one of the people who needs it to be easymode, or who waits till they have outleveled any content sufficiently to take the challenge out of it... But there are enough of us who don't want that, that those dungeons will work... For everyone else, there is plenty of content they can do elsewhere. And you can always come back at higher level to experience the content... even though you will be scaled down, you will still have a massive advantage from traits and stuff.
I'd rather have no modes. Games are suppose to be challenging. Games are suppose to have fail conditions. If you loose all your armor, you have failed start over again. Learn from your mistakes and try it again later. I expect dungeons to be for real rpgers and casual gamers to stay on the surface.
I remember my old days in FF when there were legends of players or groups that beat certain areas early in the game. When anyone at any level can run through soemthing, where's the fun.
Not sure how I want to phrase this, or even if its worth my while given the tone of some of the posts above, but I want to remind people that the main thingwhich the developers have emphasised all along is that they want this game to be FUN. This is clearly stated in the manifesto trailer:
As we all know, fun means different things to different people. You might find it fun to play games which are horrendously difficult (challenging to you, but horrendously difficult to me). I need a balance between challenge and frustration. We are not all the same. We are not all young people with quick reflexes and minds hungry for the next challenge. Some of us (me, for example), are older and some of us (me again) have health problems.
This is not a "poor me" post, btw, just trying to point out that we are all different, and we all want different things from an online game. My illnesses have changed my life so I can't do the things I used to (physical things, outdoors things), so playing games has become ever more important to me as an escape. But, although I'm a perfectionist, and do like to play well, I have to acknowledge I do have limitations (slower than young players, for one) and, although I always try to play well, I do make mistakes (like the OP who rolled off the cliff to his death lol).
Basically, what I'm trying to say is why not celebrate the type of game you like, make clear what aspects you want (eg challenge), but leave out the hate for those of us who get enough challenges trying to survive irl and want a slightly easier time of it than you do in our games?
Finally, interesting that "pussy" is used to denote weakness; what a shame you males can't experience giving birth, eh?
That tactic wouldn't work anyway if the gear in your inventory ALSO takes damage. Isn't that how it works in MOST games? Or is that an EQ2 only thing or something. I don't know what I'm remembering it from, but I'm used to ALL the gear I have in my possession taking damage......
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Oh snap dog i wanst dat , gib it to meh.
Err a big sord, slay sum muter ..... dragins yo.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
So if the dungeon are not suppoust to be a challenge why the hell all mobs are elite and you need 5 people to do it?
Arena.net, y u no make dungeons ezier?
Seriously... i read some of posts and im annoyed already. I hope that developers wont make the same mistake as many before and actually listen to these guys. PvE content in terms of raids and dungeons used to be hard, then MMORPG genre became mainstream...
Really now, you guys can go back to farm Badge, Amblem or w/e the "carrot on a stick" is called nowadays. I dont want generic beatable-in-ten-minutes content anymore. Im sick of it and annoyed as hell, as well as im annoyed of spoiled brats that made it to be like that.
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
Hopefully they keep the game difficult/challenging, I for one do not want another game handed to me. Make me want to play and give the game meaning when you defeat something difficult.
"Its better to look ugly and win than pretty and lose"
Some smart ass troll started this "easy or hard?" thing -)) lol
It takes many deaths to actually damage the item - so if you wipe a few times it's ok - if you wipe 10 times before even reaching the final boss - you should really go level before entering the dungeon another time - so the system is fair. Actually the most involving gameplay was in Diablo 2 - where you can get killed by a random elite mob crit - that is the fun, to feel thrilled by the dungeon, to feel the danger at every corner... not just at the bosses.
I love the idea they have traps in the dungeons. Reminds me of old good times when I played AD&D tabletop and Baldur's Gate series with a friend. It really makes the rogue type skills important (while in WoW-like games you can do better without a rogue in a party, which is silly since the original "holly trinity" is Fighter-Mage-Rogue, not healer-tank-dps).
The only thing I can hope for is RANDOMISATION!!! If two dungeon runs would be different (at least like in Diablo series - random mobs, random traps) it would really make the game much better. I am sick of the dungeon runs when you know every single mob and every f-ing corner in the dungeon, and if you don't - there is a video-guide on you-tube, which you are required to watch if you want to get in a good party.
It all sounds good to me. Everquest was a prime example of death done well. The penalty wasn't over the top, but I remember vividly leveling my barbarian rogue and I came upon something nasty (probably those damn undead in Kithicor) and actually getting away and not losing my level. It wasn't an accomplishment per se. I didn't get a badge, title, trophy or achievement for it, but it was a victory in my mind that even over a decade later I still remember.
Or going into Darkness Falls in DAOC. It wasn't a question of when something was going to go wrong, but really how far could we get before we either got wrecked by the mobs or by opposing realms.
These scenarios are counter-intuitive to fun from the outside looking in. You're avoiding something negative and hoping this is the time your group actually succeeds, but I can assure you these are some of the pinnacles of my long and varied gaming career.
Best game evaahhh!