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Flawed PVP?
Just some interesting findings from a MMORPG pvp vet. Taugrim talks Tera pvp.
http://taugrim.com/2012/02/13/tera-pvp-where-latency-and-hitbox-size-drive-outcomes/
I’ve been reading through the comments posted on YouTube for my first TERA video, and multiple Beta testers have pointed out that there are combat issues related to latency.
This morning I watched the last set of duels that I streamed on Saturday, and from the footage it clearly looks like latency (or lag) breaks the game’s combat design.
Check out the following TwitchTV video for duels between Razer (level 5 Female Elin Slayer) and Kennedy (level 5 Female Elin Archer):
http://www.twitch.tv/taugrim/b/308466267
At several points in their duels, what Kennedy and I saw was the same: Razer was able to hit Kennedy even though it looked like Razer was clearly out of melee range. This prevented Kennedy from knowing where his opponent was, and therefore how to target and how to counter. Given that I saw the same thing that Kennedy was experiencing, we wondered whether the issue was Razer’s Internet connection. He checked and his ping time to our Vent server was low.
Keep in mind the latency occurred in 1v1 combat with very few players nearby. That said, the issue really isn’t whether the Beta server was tuned, how many people were nearby, etc. It’s a game design issue. Games typically have higher “lag” as the number of combatants increases. TERA’s combat by design does not seem to elegantly deal with issues created by increasing latency (or lag) – the opposite seems to be the case.
I’m really glad to have tried TERA given the hype about the combat design. I might be able to get past or accept the self-root for animations, even though it makes combat feel clunky. But the impact of latency on combat makes TERA too risky for me to invest time in – I don’t want to level up only to find that PVP outcomes are affected by the latency of combatants.
I want to lose to better players, not players with latency (or lag) in their favor.
Aside from the latency issue, in TERA the hitbox is based on character race, gender, and size. That is a serious design flaw, because the benefits of being small (“it’s harder to hit me”) outweigh the downsides (“it’s harder to heal me”). I’d rather take less damage than be easier to heal, because that would mean there is less reason to heal me in the first place.
UPDATE (2012/02/13 noon PST): before you pull the “OMG NOOB TERA IS IN BETA” card, keep in mind TERA went live in Korea on January 25, 2011 – over a year ago. What is in Closed Beta is the version of the game that is being managed and operated by game publisher En Masse for NA and EU.
Developers tend to localize games for new markets with via language (text and voiceovers), tweaks to XP, and content availability, not via changing core game mechanics. I observed this with Aion, which was live in Korea before going live in NA in 2009 and with Allods Online, which was live in Russia before going live in NA in 2010.
So what we can reasonably expect are fixes per Beta testing related to the localization process and changes to En Masse’s server environment and infrastructure, but probably not to the core game code itself.
UPDATE (2012/02/15): some TERA supporters have been claiming that FPS games have lag too, and that it isn’t a big deal.
Let me frame a critical distinction between FPS combat and TERA combat.
In FPS games, you can run and gun – the action of firing a weapon does not cause you to move in a predefined path. Weapons in FPS games have a “reload” timer but they do not in themselves restrict mobility, unless the player chooses to do something like aim their weapon by using a scope.
However, in TERA, when you use an attack ability, you move in a fixed path for that ability. Keep in mind one’s ability to attack and defend are heavily dependent on positioning.
Therefore I expect lag in TERA to be more detrimental than lag in an FPS.
Comments
I had some minor issues with the lag affecting pvp i participated in but nothing major and i participated in some battles with at least quite some players. ~20+ at least.
Bothered by rooting animations, has only played to level five, clearly forgot almost all action games have rooting.
Personally I've played many 10v10 deathmatches and have not had an issue yet, while maintaining 40-50fps with all those people on screen and spectators.
This aside I don't think this article is worth anything though because it seems to carry an authoritative opinion but doesn't give anything but speculation.
Were they playing on EU servers from another place in the world? The ping was "low" to the Vent server?...? Other factors such as rig vs graphics settings can also be an issue. There just wasn't enough information IMO for thus article to mean anything.
Lastly he is wrong about what publishers can do about performance once a publisher is handed an overseas game. Proof of this is talk of how the chat system is being handled in EU and whether to put them on separate severs. The other is that in terms of latency the equipment, location and quality of your hub is a major factor above and beyond the coding if the software.
Just not worth my time anymore.
It seem a large group of people don't get the whole root part of the game and i suggest all of them to play monster hunter and god eater burst first.
Also the point of vary hit box is to make you aim -.- advantage of small hit box is your harder to hit but also harder to heal. Trying to balance pvp in 1v1 is stupid, the hit box balance it self out in larget 5v5 or 10v10 pvp where if your small chance are your healer might not see you and heal you at all.
I've never lagged in any of the duels that I've played.
His argument is moot. "keep in mind TERA went live in Korea on January 25, 2011 – over a year ago" The fact that he even says that means he has no idea what he is talking about. Lag is server based, not client based usually at least lag with players fighting in the same area. Which means the en masse client being in BETA will have lag issues for some servers or areas, while they sort out their servers for the huge loads of people.
Taugrim doesn't really know what he is talking about, when you have 350-500ms latency in KTera while still being able to hit things I believe it won't be as bad as Taugrim wants it to be. When you're closer (Live in NA / Play NA) the latency will be much lower where you shouldn't even encounter anything of the sort unless you're having ISP issues.
Sounded to me like someone really trying hard for an excuse not to play tera.
Latency and Lag effect every true good PVP non tab target game. Cause certain code has to stay server side and not client side. It has always been an issue in FPS style games. That being said FPS style pvp is the highest intensity and player skill required making it challenging and fun.