Just because you dont like it, it does not mean it is not needed, there is only that much content a company can churn out per year.
The ultimate definition of grind is:
I dont like to do this - grind
I like to do this - FUN
But yes, ideally a game should offer several activities with a balanced reward system offering the same rewards, some more action based, some less, some more grindy, some less.
There was some poll lately on tera eu forums and surprisingly, from a sample size of just several hundred people, 25% did not want to have grind, 35% wanted to have grind all the time, and 40% wanted to have grind as an option, say over the weekend, after the sunday lunch, you do not want to raid or pvp, you just want to sit in your chair and relax mindlessly killing something for reputation
Flame on!
While I would like to see an MMO maker move away from the standard level progession type of game play, I'm hard pressed to think of what it could be replaced with that wouldn't make the game feel too easy, and more importantly, too short. (And before someone throws in a comment about skill based leveling, you are still "grinding" skill points from 1 to whatever cap is.)
About the only alternative mechanic I've seen in recent MMOs was allowing you to level reasonably well on BG PVP alone and frankly I think that feature was one of the biggest detractors of games such as Warhammer Oline and SWTOR as players who took this route hit level cap very fast then found themselves with nothing to do.
I think the so called grind is just one of the inherent weaknesses of the MMO platform. When the biggest primis of the game seems to be time spent in it, the journey really is the destination.
The problem with MMORPG gamers is that they can't just enjoy doing what they "so called" like to do. For instnace, PvPers should be happy just PvPing as long as they're given a reasonable cause to do so, such as RvR. But nope, they feel like they have nothing to do if they've gotten the best gear PvP has to offer. You didn't RvR in DAoC for gear. You did it because it was fun and because your realm depended on you fighting the good fight.
In other words, the joy in doing the activity you enjoy doing should be its own reward. I enjoy grouping, so I never cared too much about getting the best gear in an instance. I didn't run them for the gear. I ran them to play with others and conquer challenging content. If I got a nice drop, that's just a bonus.
If people quit because they feel they have no reason to play, it's either because they actually don't like doing that activity, but only did it because what they really like doing ran out, such as chasing the best loot in the game; or it's because the developers never gave a true purpose for the activity they like doing, which is usually the case for PvPers in themepark games. In DAoC, pvp had a purpose through RvR, so you didn't need gear to keep you going. I imagine EQ guilds raided mainly because they enjoyed the challenge, rather than chasing some piece of gear.
I always wondered why MMORPGs never had a leveling system that was based on performance. For example, someone picks up a quest, a timer starts and the computer AI measures how effective the player is using his available DPS, energy pool and HP as well as measuring is death to kill ratio. If it becomes obvious the player is performing well, he can get the option of picking up a new "training" quest to gain a level.
Nice point, alot of variables to figure out though.
It's an open ended question. The only rule is to not mention subscription at all.
In my opinion, a MMORPG doesn't need a grind. Whether it be mob grinding or quest grinding, it's just not needed. Just because it's a staple of RPG's to have character advancement, that doesn't mean you need to grind for it. Who here really enjoys running from quest hub to quest hub grabbing and doing menial chores for NPC's? Who here really enjoys grinding on mobs for hours for xp?
It'd be nice to just log in and take part in whatever activity you enjoy doing. Ideally, if you're doing what you enjoy doing right out of the gate, then you'd not likely realize how long it's taking to advance to the next level.
Perhaps GW2 and TSW will solve this dillema. Maybe by making the content challenging (TSW) or random and unexpected (GW2), we'll actually enjoy ourselves in the game.
It's NOT a grind if the game is made according to the old standard, where you had to group to get ahead. That was fun. It's immersion, it was roleplaying. My dwarf met your troll, we grabbed a norse, and while we sat back rounding up mobs and drinking beer on ventrillo, we talked about what we would do when it came to be our turn to defend our realm. Or we just shot the poop, and enjoyed each other's company.
Today's state of the game - why it feels like a grind - lack of socialization
Today it's all push a button, group with strangers who could care less about your name. You group with people you will ]never see again. You pvp against people whose names do not matter because you will never see them again.
It's a grind these days because other than Dungeon Finder, you will solo most content to end game. This is intentional, so that players as always, do not have to rely on their powers of socialization (i.e, the basis of the entire mmo industry to begin with). When Richard Garriot (Lord British) created the first graphical rpg, he immediately fantasized about players being able to merge online in the same way they did in a M.U.D. He never imagined, as I would assume all the early developers, that players would be given classes that would enable them to solo without any help till end game. This is arguably why at least some people have claimed that SW:ToR is a solo RPG.
In Dark Age of Camelot (I always advertise this mmorpg since EA/Mythic seems unable to), it was a grind from hell - not as bad as the Uthgarde shard - but god awful. You were inspired to join other players so that you could be happy that you earned a level after an entire session. It felt like an accomplishment to reach end game - for then you would be able to participate in the political pvp grandeur that was three realm pvp between completely different races and classes (zero mirrors in a persistant pvp environment).
But even Dark Age of Camelot, taken over by incompetent yes men, turned into a solo venture. You merely had to run to a dungeon quest giver and go grind your local dungeon - still helped to have players though.
Developers are very good at forcing cheap pvp, by forcing you to quest in the same zone as that other faction. That's cheap and unimaginative, never giving a player a true sense of immersion within their own culture. It's also improbable. Imagine during the 100 years war, walking around with a French accent in England, doing "quests." You'd be nailed to a cross. So, it didn't happen in Dark Age either.
1.
What developers should do, is get rid of the cross quest zone mechanic, and instead, focus on rewarding players for grouping. You should get 10% xp bonus for ever slot you fill in your group - period.
2.
Many people click through quest stories asap - they very rarely enjoy reading the cheese that is a majority of quest lines. I don't care about feeding the orphaned Or'dVkarth, or returning Dardis Mond's necklace to her. I don't care about the wolf problem at the abbey, or the wolf poop that hides important data. I just want to start the real grind, and enjoy end game. So let monsters be worth real experience. Why as players are we forced by theme park games to settle for quests. Fed Ex and kill x of y is just overdone. Again, in Dark Age, most of your xp was from mass mob grinding. - Give us the option of quest lines and mob grinding, everyone is happy! Anyway...Digressing.
Anyway - my 2 cents. It's not a grind, if it's developed correctly.
The title thread could easilly be: Do MMORPGs need repeated content. Grind is always associated with repetition. And RPGs single player and MMOs (and most games actually), all mostly about repetition. So you can't totally eliminate any repetition in MMOs, it's simply impossible.
Grind though is just defined by repetition that you don't enjoy. So in order to eliminate, or at least reduce the grind, they simply need to make the repeated stuff more enjoyable, or add twists. Making it more difficult can help, or make it appear different also helps. It's hard though because grind is usually a subjective term. Grind for one person is enjoyable content for another.
Not just one grind, they need several grinds. The more the better. (skills, crafting, reputation, whatever...)
People cry for less grind and then wonder why they get bored of these new MMOs in 2 weeks.
Progression through grinding is what makes you hooked, what makes you keep wanting to play...No grind = no longevity.
I haven't quit every MMORPG since WoW came out because there was less grind. I quit because the grind I had to endure was more than I could stomach. To me, doing chores for NPC's all by myself, for weeks on end is just pointless. to what purpose?
I agree, grinding XP through quests is most probably the dullest form of grinding because you spend most of your time travelling, in other words being passive.
There's that and there's the over populated zones with monsters every step of the way. So you're pressing the same 1,2,3,4 hotkeys to kill 1 mob every 10 seconds to get to your next objective. Game worlds these days are too populated with aggressive monsters. People are sick to death of logging in and constantly fighting, probably because there's no challenge in fighting, and we've all mastered the current combat model (spamming hotkeys in appropriate rotation). That's why you see people stealthing through mobs if they're able or skirting them to get to their objective, instead of killing them.
I have to agree with this too (although I usually enjoy mob farming to a certain degree).
I recently quit Lineage 2 because of this. In that game, until you reach high levels (which can take forever) the only thing there is to do is farm mobs for XP.
I think the key is having several parallel grinds so you can switch whenever one gets boring or too repetitive.
Either that or having multiple grinds mixed into the same activity. For instance, if the mobs you're farming also happen to drop rare but extremely valuable crafting mats (just an example) then chances are you'll be able to stomach the farming way longer.
Which is where SWG shined. Let's face it, the combat side of SWG was a mob grind. However, what made it bearable was you were doing it with others, and because the stuff you were grinding provided you with materials to sell to crafters, which in turn earned you money to buy crafted items, which gave you the ability to customize your look (no clones) and become more powerful to fight the enemy player faction (empire, rebels). In other words, there was a purpose in that game for the activities you did. There was a war going on, and a player ran economy needing fueled. That game, aside from earning Jedi, didn't feel like a grind. It felt like you were building a virtual life.
In todays games, leveling up is most certainly a grind. The only reason people stomach the grind is because, for some reason, they want to get the best gear in the game, which does absolutely nothing accept grant bragging rights, which is null, since "hard" content is no longer hard. I personally never understood the obsession to get the best gear in the game. I don't even care about that in SPG's
I always wondered why MMORPGs never had a leveling system that was based on performance. For example, someone picks up a quest, a timer starts and the computer AI measures how effective the player is using his available DPS, energy pool and HP as well as measuring is death to kill ratio. If it becomes obvious the player is performing well, he can get the option of picking up a new "training" quest to gain a level.
You just inspired an idea.
What if there wasn't a leveling system at all. That means no levels in any form, including a skill based system.
Instead, you start off with basic skills. The only way to learn more skills is to explore the world and learn from NPC's that aren't marked with some ! above their heads. You never know what skills are out there.
Just some examples, you head out to some remote temple out east and talk to a NPC that starts training you in some martial art. By completing his quests, you prove that you have the discipline it takes to learn his art. So instead of the basic punch and kick basic skills, you get some flashy kung fu moves.
Which is where SWG shined. Let's face it, the combat side of SWG was a mob grind. However, what made it bearable was you were doing it with others, and because the stuff you were grinding provided you with materials to sell to crafters, which in turn earned you money to buy crafted items, which gave you the ability to customize your look (no clones) and become more powerful to fight the enemy player faction (empire, rebels). In other words, there was a purpose in that game for the activities you did. There was a war going on, and a player ran economy needing fueled. That game, aside from earning Jedi, didn't feel like a grind. It felt like you were building a virtual life.
In todays games, leveling up is most certainly a grind. The only reason people stomach the grind is because, for some reason, they want to get the best gear in the game, which does absolutely nothing accept grant bragging rights, which is null, since "hard" content is no longer hard. I personally never understood the obsession to get the best gear in the game. I don't even care about that in SPG's
Ahhh SWG, good times
What I underlined in your post is, I think, the bottom line here. Although I'm convinced grinding is necessary in MMOs, if it has no purpose beyond filling an XP bar on your screen, it'll get boring.
Good MMOs add multiple layers of purpose to grinding whereas poor MMOs just throw the grind at you as is.
Grind is inherent imo. A boxer enjoys boxing but in between matches does lots of repeating things, jogging, hitting the bag, weight training, etc. And he probably didn't see it as grinding. Removing grind kinda makes me think of a baker wanting to make cake but doesn't want to measure or mix anything. I think the experience needs to be spiced up alittle but i want grinding to stick around
The title thread could easilly be: Do MMORPGs need repeated content. Grind is always associated with repetition. And RPGs single player and MMOs (and most games actually), all mostly about repetition. So you can't totally eliminate any repetition in MMOs, it's simply impossible.
Grind though is just defined by repetition that you don't enjoy. So in order to eliminate, or at least reduce the grind, they simply need to make the repeated stuff more enjoyable, or add twists. Making it more difficult can help, or make it appear different also helps. It's hard though because grind is usually a subjective term. Grind for one person is enjoyable content for another.
You mentioned that SP RPG's are all about repetition. It got me thinking and I can't agree with you. The immersion of a game is what makes or breaks it. Take Resident Evil 5 for example. I haven't grinded once in that game. Instead, I'm on the edge of my seat, afraid that something god aweful looking is going to eat me. Another example is Skyrim. Sneaking through a dungeon isn't repetitious. What it is though, is a scary endeavor that has you on your edge of your seat, with the volume turned up, because you don't know what lies around the next bend. Is it just another bandit or rat? Or could it be some supernatural being that you're not prepared to handle.
In MMORPG's, mobs just stand there waiting to be killed. Even the ugly or big ones aren't a threat. You'll win on auto attack, unless it's an elite. If it's an elite, you'll win as long as you don't mess up too bad.
When the focus of the game is the gain levels, then of course anything you do is going to feel grindy, because the developers only created that content so you can level up. If instead the focus is on something else, such as finding important resources your guild needs to build a city, which can be destroyed if not defended, then you've switched the focus from leveling, to trying to survive in a brutal war torn world. "Hey guys, enemy 12 o' clock. Nice job guys, we got him.Whoops, did I just level? Coolness!"
Grind is inherent imo. A boxer enjoys boxing but in between matches does lots of repeating things, jogging, hitting the bag, weight training, etc. And he probably didn't see it as grinding. Removing grind kinda makes me think of a baker wanting to make cake but doesn't want to measure or mix anything. I think the experience needs to be spiced up alittle but i want grinding to stick around
In a way, you have a point. Practice makes perfect. However, at some point you master your craft and practice is only needed occassionally. Let's take a raid focused MMORPG for instance. The whole purpose of that game, apparently since it only has raids at max level, is to raid. To raid you need to know your class abilities inside and out. To raid you need to know how your class works with other classes inside and out. So how does that happen?
Well, using WoW as an example: You're forced to quest grind, which has nothing to do with learning raid skills, since it's a solo afair, to max level. You don't even learn your skills inside and out, because you can faceroll everything with your first 3 hotkeys. Who cares about the other 20 keys. However, if you run instances at the appropriate level and aren't overgeared, you find yourself having to slow down and learn how various abilities work, especially how your class works with other classes. Now we're finally building skills, or practicing as you will, to be a raider. Much the same way a boxer needs to physically condition himself to be in fighting shape.
So you see, I agree that players need to practice their class or craft to get good at it, but MMORPG's overdo it. How long does it really take to master a new ability on your hotbar and how often do you get a new ability? Then you see that the majority of the grind is just there to be a grind. It serves no purpose other than to keep you busy.
It's an open ended question. The only rule is to not mention subscription at all.
In my opinion, a MMORPG doesn't need a grind. Whether it be mob grinding or quest grinding, it's just not needed. Just because it's a staple of RPG's to have character advancement, that doesn't mean you need to grind for it. Who here really enjoys running from quest hub to quest hub grabbing and doing menial chores for NPC's? Who here really enjoys grinding on mobs for hours for xp?
It'd be nice to just log in and take part in whatever activity you enjoy doing. Ideally, if you're doing what you enjoy doing right out of the gate, then you'd not likely realize how long it's taking to advance to the next level.
Perhaps GW2 and TSW will solve this dillema. Maybe by making the content challenging (TSW) or random and unexpected (GW2), we'll actually enjoy ourselves in the game.
MMOs need large persistant worlds ; longevity and an online community and lots of charachter development and capability... without these it just isn't an MMO.
If you want an arena game without any of the above you just do not need the world ; A well designed game draws people in and the grind is just gameplay.
Grind is just an abstract term one persons heaven is anothers grind; In my opinion you have not got a clue what an MMO is really all about or you are just trying to re-invent something into an easy mode arena game ..... which is more suited to IQ Zero gamers of which about 80% fit that category.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I always wondered why MMORPGs never had a leveling system that was based on performance. For example, someone picks up a quest, a timer starts and the computer AI measures how effective the player is using his available DPS, energy pool and HP as well as measuring is death to kill ratio. If it becomes obvious the player is performing well, he can get the option of picking up a new "training" quest to gain a level.
You just inspired an idea.
What if there wasn't a leveling system at all. That means no levels in any form, including a skill based system.
Instead, you start off with basic skills. The only way to learn more skills is to explore the world and learn from NPC's that aren't marked with some ! above their heads. You never know what skills are out there.
Just some examples, you head out to some remote temple out east and talk to a NPC that starts training you in some martial art. By completing his quests, you prove that you have the discipline it takes to learn his art. So instead of the basic punch and kick basic skills, you get some flashy kung fu moves.
Same goes for crafters and politicians.
I think you need to keep an eye on Age of Wushu. It has a system similar to what you're proposing I think.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
It's an open ended question. The only rule is to not mention subscription at all.
In my opinion, a MMORPG doesn't need a grind. Whether it be mob grinding or quest grinding, it's just not needed. Just because it's a staple of RPG's to have character advancement, that doesn't mean you need to grind for it. Who here really enjoys running from quest hub to quest hub grabbing and doing menial chores for NPC's? Who here really enjoys grinding on mobs for hours for xp?
It'd be nice to just log in and take part in whatever activity you enjoy doing. Ideally, if you're doing what you enjoy doing right out of the gate, then you'd not likely realize how long it's taking to advance to the next level.
Perhaps GW2 and TSW will solve this dillema. Maybe by making the content challenging (TSW) or random and unexpected (GW2), we'll actually enjoy ourselves in the game.
MMOs need large persistant worlds ; longevity and an online community and lots of charachter development and capability... without these it just isn't an MMO.
If you want an arena game without any of the above you just do not need the world ; A well designed game draws people in and the grind is just gameplay.
Grind is just an abstract term one persons heaven is anothers grind; In my opinion you have not got a clue what an MMO is really all about or you are just trying to re-invent something into an easy mode arena game ..... which is more suited to IQ Zero gamers of which about 80% fit that category.
Yes, grind is subjective. Performing tasks in a game is not a grind if you enjoy it in my opinion. I view something as a grind, when I have to do something over and over again, and I don't want to do it. it's a necessary evil though. Best example I could use is preparing your characters for raiding, in say WoW. That was a grind to me, obtaining all the reputation, getting the right gear, studying the boss fights. It was fun at first, but after a while it was just too much for me, and I didn't want to do it, but I had to in order to keep raiding. Now on the oppisite end, I look at my time in early SWG. Before it was known how to be a jedi, and then after we knew, I must have killed so many damn NPCs. Thousands and thousands in my quest to become a jedi. But it wasn't a grind because I had fun doing it. I just loved that buggy game before the ole NGE for some crazy reason, even though there wasn't much pve.
tldr, grind is subjective. If you are asking if MMMO's need things to do, then yes they do!
While I would like to see an MMO maker move away from the standard level progession type of game play, I'm hard pressed to think of what it could be replaced with that wouldn't make the game feel too easy, and more importantly, too short. (And before someone throws in a comment about skill based leveling, you are still "grinding" skill points from 1 to whatever cap is.)
About the only alternative mechanic I've seen in recent MMOs was allowing you to level reasonably well on BG PVP alone and frankly I think that feature was one of the biggest detractors of games such as Warhammer Oline and SWTOR as players who took this route hit level cap very fast then found themselves with nothing to do.
I think the so called grind is just one of the inherent weaknesses of the MMO platform. When the biggest primis of the game seems to be time spent in it, the journey really is the destination.
Well , that is why i overused the word "balanced" in my post, in essence these things have to be based on time and effort, IF we have the basic number of exp/hour a player can aquire just killing mobs over and over, the number can be 50% bigger if he does quests, because they force him to run around, find the mobs, fight mobs he would not have founght because they are ranged and so on, gettting to bgs and dungeons, there is no reason, in the current situation, for them to give extra exp/time, in most of the games they are as easy as quests, while offering superior items and other drops.
Ofcourse the resulting system would be much more complex
Grinding is when you have to do something that you wouldn't otherwise even consider doing in order to get access to the content that you want.
By that definition, no, MMORPGs don't need grinding. But it is easier to add than real content, so a lot of games put stupid stuff in to slow you down, so that it takes more time to play through the real content before you decide that you've done everything worth doing and quit. Or if you're more clever, you realize that the game has too much grinding early on and quit before doing all of the content, or perhaps even don't pick up the game in the first place.
I think MMOs probably need a little grind but the less the better because grinding have a huge disadvantage: It isn´t challenging. You are just doing the same content over and over,
I played ragnarok online and it never felt like a grind. And people tend to consider that one of the grindiest games ever o.o
I was doing stuff and having fun while I was at it. The moment it becomes a grind is when you focus on the carrot more than the here.
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
I think MMOs probably need a little grind but the less the better because grinding have a huge disadvantage: It isn´t challenging. You are just doing the same content over and over,
Actually no. I know of something worse..
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When you dream about a bad day at work... Its basically like a grind, that has no effect on Real life but when you wake up, and you feel mentally drained because of it.
I played ragnarok online and it never felt like a grind. And people tend to consider that one of the grindiest games ever o.o
I was doing stuff and having fun while I was at it. The moment it becomes a grind is when you focus on the carrot more than the here.
I think you make a strong point here. Hmm, I'm wondering what it would be like to take away most carrots. Game makers would be forced to make the content interesting, instead of just putting a nice reward at the end, and making repetitive content the way to get it. As it stands in many games, people would not play them without the carrot.
Is it possible to completely remove the "carrot"? Probably not, but trying to minimize it might help with removing perceived grind. I think, at the very least, taking the dungeon and raid grind for gear out of MMOs, or at least reduce it significantly would greatly help with the endgame grind.
Comments
The problem with MMORPG gamers is that they can't just enjoy doing what they "so called" like to do. For instnace, PvPers should be happy just PvPing as long as they're given a reasonable cause to do so, such as RvR. But nope, they feel like they have nothing to do if they've gotten the best gear PvP has to offer. You didn't RvR in DAoC for gear. You did it because it was fun and because your realm depended on you fighting the good fight.
In other words, the joy in doing the activity you enjoy doing should be its own reward. I enjoy grouping, so I never cared too much about getting the best gear in an instance. I didn't run them for the gear. I ran them to play with others and conquer challenging content. If I got a nice drop, that's just a bonus.
If people quit because they feel they have no reason to play, it's either because they actually don't like doing that activity, but only did it because what they really like doing ran out, such as chasing the best loot in the game; or it's because the developers never gave a true purpose for the activity they like doing, which is usually the case for PvPers in themepark games. In DAoC, pvp had a purpose through RvR, so you didn't need gear to keep you going. I imagine EQ guilds raided mainly because they enjoyed the challenge, rather than chasing some piece of gear.
Nice point, alot of variables to figure out though.
It's NOT a grind if the game is made according to the old standard, where you had to group to get ahead. That was fun. It's immersion, it was roleplaying. My dwarf met your troll, we grabbed a norse, and while we sat back rounding up mobs and drinking beer on ventrillo, we talked about what we would do when it came to be our turn to defend our realm. Or we just shot the poop, and enjoyed each other's company.
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Today's state of the game - why it feels like a grind - lack of socialization
Today it's all push a button, group with strangers who could care less about your name. You group with people you will ]never see again. You pvp against people whose names do not matter because you will never see them again.
It's a grind these days because other than Dungeon Finder, you will solo most content to end game. This is intentional, so that players as always, do not have to rely on their powers of socialization (i.e, the basis of the entire mmo industry to begin with). When Richard Garriot (Lord British) created the first graphical rpg, he immediately fantasized about players being able to merge online in the same way they did in a M.U.D. He never imagined, as I would assume all the early developers, that players would be given classes that would enable them to solo without any help till end game. This is arguably why at least some people have claimed that SW:ToR is a solo RPG.
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In Dark Age of Camelot (I always advertise this mmorpg since EA/Mythic seems unable to), it was a grind from hell - not as bad as the Uthgarde shard - but god awful. You were inspired to join other players so that you could be happy that you earned a level after an entire session. It felt like an accomplishment to reach end game - for then you would be able to participate in the political pvp grandeur that was three realm pvp between completely different races and classes (zero mirrors in a persistant pvp environment).
But even Dark Age of Camelot, taken over by incompetent yes men, turned into a solo venture. You merely had to run to a dungeon quest giver and go grind your local dungeon - still helped to have players though.
Developers are very good at forcing cheap pvp, by forcing you to quest in the same zone as that other faction. That's cheap and unimaginative, never giving a player a true sense of immersion within their own culture. It's also improbable. Imagine during the 100 years war, walking around with a French accent in England, doing "quests." You'd be nailed to a cross. So, it didn't happen in Dark Age either.
1.
What developers should do, is get rid of the cross quest zone mechanic, and instead, focus on rewarding players for grouping. You should get 10% xp bonus for ever slot you fill in your group - period.
2.
Many people click through quest stories asap - they very rarely enjoy reading the cheese that is a majority of quest lines. I don't care about feeding the orphaned Or'dVkarth, or returning Dardis Mond's necklace to her. I don't care about the wolf problem at the abbey, or the wolf poop that hides important data. I just want to start the real grind, and enjoy end game. So let monsters be worth real experience. Why as players are we forced by theme park games to settle for quests. Fed Ex and kill x of y is just overdone. Again, in Dark Age, most of your xp was from mass mob grinding. - Give us the option of quest lines and mob grinding, everyone is happy! Anyway...Digressing.
Anyway - my 2 cents. It's not a grind, if it's developed correctly.
The title thread could easilly be: Do MMORPGs need repeated content. Grind is always associated with repetition. And RPGs single player and MMOs (and most games actually), all mostly about repetition. So you can't totally eliminate any repetition in MMOs, it's simply impossible.
Grind though is just defined by repetition that you don't enjoy. So in order to eliminate, or at least reduce the grind, they simply need to make the repeated stuff more enjoyable, or add twists. Making it more difficult can help, or make it appear different also helps. It's hard though because grind is usually a subjective term. Grind for one person is enjoyable content for another.
Which is where SWG shined. Let's face it, the combat side of SWG was a mob grind. However, what made it bearable was you were doing it with others, and because the stuff you were grinding provided you with materials to sell to crafters, which in turn earned you money to buy crafted items, which gave you the ability to customize your look (no clones) and become more powerful to fight the enemy player faction (empire, rebels). In other words, there was a purpose in that game for the activities you did. There was a war going on, and a player ran economy needing fueled. That game, aside from earning Jedi, didn't feel like a grind. It felt like you were building a virtual life.
In todays games, leveling up is most certainly a grind. The only reason people stomach the grind is because, for some reason, they want to get the best gear in the game, which does absolutely nothing accept grant bragging rights, which is null, since "hard" content is no longer hard. I personally never understood the obsession to get the best gear in the game. I don't even care about that in SPG's
It sound like you are looking for a shooter game. There are plenty of them. Look them up.
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You just inspired an idea.
What if there wasn't a leveling system at all. That means no levels in any form, including a skill based system.
Instead, you start off with basic skills. The only way to learn more skills is to explore the world and learn from NPC's that aren't marked with some ! above their heads. You never know what skills are out there.
Just some examples, you head out to some remote temple out east and talk to a NPC that starts training you in some martial art. By completing his quests, you prove that you have the discipline it takes to learn his art. So instead of the basic punch and kick basic skills, you get some flashy kung fu moves.
Same goes for crafters and politicians.
Ahhh SWG, good times
What I underlined in your post is, I think, the bottom line here. Although I'm convinced grinding is necessary in MMOs, if it has no purpose beyond filling an XP bar on your screen, it'll get boring.
Good MMOs add multiple layers of purpose to grinding whereas poor MMOs just throw the grind at you as is.
You mentioned that SP RPG's are all about repetition. It got me thinking and I can't agree with you. The immersion of a game is what makes or breaks it. Take Resident Evil 5 for example. I haven't grinded once in that game. Instead, I'm on the edge of my seat, afraid that something god aweful looking is going to eat me. Another example is Skyrim. Sneaking through a dungeon isn't repetitious. What it is though, is a scary endeavor that has you on your edge of your seat, with the volume turned up, because you don't know what lies around the next bend. Is it just another bandit or rat? Or could it be some supernatural being that you're not prepared to handle.
In MMORPG's, mobs just stand there waiting to be killed. Even the ugly or big ones aren't a threat. You'll win on auto attack, unless it's an elite. If it's an elite, you'll win as long as you don't mess up too bad.
When the focus of the game is the gain levels, then of course anything you do is going to feel grindy, because the developers only created that content so you can level up. If instead the focus is on something else, such as finding important resources your guild needs to build a city, which can be destroyed if not defended, then you've switched the focus from leveling, to trying to survive in a brutal war torn world. "Hey guys, enemy 12 o' clock. Nice job guys, we got him.Whoops, did I just level? Coolness!"
In a way, you have a point. Practice makes perfect. However, at some point you master your craft and practice is only needed occassionally. Let's take a raid focused MMORPG for instance. The whole purpose of that game, apparently since it only has raids at max level, is to raid. To raid you need to know your class abilities inside and out. To raid you need to know how your class works with other classes inside and out. So how does that happen?
Well, using WoW as an example: You're forced to quest grind, which has nothing to do with learning raid skills, since it's a solo afair, to max level. You don't even learn your skills inside and out, because you can faceroll everything with your first 3 hotkeys. Who cares about the other 20 keys. However, if you run instances at the appropriate level and aren't overgeared, you find yourself having to slow down and learn how various abilities work, especially how your class works with other classes. Now we're finally building skills, or practicing as you will, to be a raider. Much the same way a boxer needs to physically condition himself to be in fighting shape.
So you see, I agree that players need to practice their class or craft to get good at it, but MMORPG's overdo it. How long does it really take to master a new ability on your hotbar and how often do you get a new ability? Then you see that the majority of the grind is just there to be a grind. It serves no purpose other than to keep you busy.
MMOs need large persistant worlds ; longevity and an online community and lots of charachter development and capability... without these it just isn't an MMO.
If you want an arena game without any of the above you just do not need the world ; A well designed game draws people in and the grind is just gameplay.
Grind is just an abstract term one persons heaven is anothers grind; In my opinion you have not got a clue what an MMO is really all about or you are just trying to re-invent something into an easy mode arena game ..... which is more suited to IQ Zero gamers of which about 80% fit that category.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I think you need to keep an eye on Age of Wushu. It has a system similar to what you're proposing I think.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Yes, grind is subjective. Performing tasks in a game is not a grind if you enjoy it in my opinion. I view something as a grind, when I have to do something over and over again, and I don't want to do it. it's a necessary evil though. Best example I could use is preparing your characters for raiding, in say WoW. That was a grind to me, obtaining all the reputation, getting the right gear, studying the boss fights. It was fun at first, but after a while it was just too much for me, and I didn't want to do it, but I had to in order to keep raiding. Now on the oppisite end, I look at my time in early SWG. Before it was known how to be a jedi, and then after we knew, I must have killed so many damn NPCs. Thousands and thousands in my quest to become a jedi. But it wasn't a grind because I had fun doing it. I just loved that buggy game before the ole NGE for some crazy reason, even though there wasn't much pve.
tldr, grind is subjective. If you are asking if MMMO's need things to do, then yes they do!
Well , that is why i overused the word "balanced" in my post, in essence these things have to be based on time and effort, IF we have the basic number of exp/hour a player can aquire just killing mobs over and over, the number can be 50% bigger if he does quests, because they force him to run around, find the mobs, fight mobs he would not have founght because they are ranged and so on, gettting to bgs and dungeons, there is no reason, in the current situation, for them to give extra exp/time, in most of the games they are as easy as quests, while offering superior items and other drops.
Ofcourse the resulting system would be much more complex
Flame on!
Grinding is when you have to do something that you wouldn't otherwise even consider doing in order to get access to the content that you want.
By that definition, no, MMORPGs don't need grinding. But it is easier to add than real content, so a lot of games put stupid stuff in to slow you down, so that it takes more time to play through the real content before you decide that you've done everything worth doing and quit. Or if you're more clever, you realize that the game has too much grinding early on and quit before doing all of the content, or perhaps even don't pick up the game in the first place.
Even? It is the worst grind of all.
I think MMOs probably need a little grind but the less the better because grinding have a huge disadvantage: It isn´t challenging. You are just doing the same content over and over,
Its not grinding if its fun.
I played ragnarok online and it never felt like a grind. And people tend to consider that one of the grindiest games ever o.o
I was doing stuff and having fun while I was at it. The moment it becomes a grind is when you focus on the carrot more than the here.
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Actually no. I know of something worse..
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When you dream about a bad day at work... Its basically like a grind, that has no effect on Real life but when you wake up, and you feel mentally drained because of it.
I think you make a strong point here. Hmm, I'm wondering what it would be like to take away most carrots. Game makers would be forced to make the content interesting, instead of just putting a nice reward at the end, and making repetitive content the way to get it. As it stands in many games, people would not play them without the carrot.
Is it possible to completely remove the "carrot"? Probably not, but trying to minimize it might help with removing perceived grind. I think, at the very least, taking the dungeon and raid grind for gear out of MMOs, or at least reduce it significantly would greatly help with the endgame grind.
MMO's need choices and if you can not make the progression fun then make it quick or you will not make a subscriber out of me.
You could even make the progression more like a tutorial for end game which is more what lvling should be like, imo.
None at all because grinding is boring.
Only Sub games need grinding because they need to keep you in the game.
I don't even think sub games need grinds just fun mechanics.
Yeah ,cause F2P mmorpg's don't have grind. lol
Talk about biased