There is a thread roaming around called something like Your Favorite Memory in a MMO. If you go in there and read what people have to say it is pretty damn amazing, especially if your a old school video gamer. Point is- The games that come up the most are some really old schoolers, games with HEAVILY FLAWED skill trees, trait systems, AA points, UI's, HUD's... GW2 isnt even out yet and people are in a tizzy over speculation? Come on. Play the game for what it will be and it WILL get adjusted as time goes on you can bet on that. The early days are the BEST, when the game is broken... when someone figures out that OMGWTFPWN build and people get to go crazy for a few days or more.Then years down the line you read all over the forums... Wow remember back when you could 4 points into ownface and then go ownface... those where the days. Live it, Love it... Or leave it. Simple.
Good point. Now I wonder what profession will be first hit by the nerf bat. I'm guessing Elementalist or Necro.
I am totally indifferent to the trait system as I have yet to try it, most people flaming the system have probably not tested it in the game environment either.. play the game... simple as!
All hail the Barn Owl! oh.. and the RED SQUIRREL!!!
Oh gawd, after reading this. I actually agree with you that they need to REMOVE the attributes in the trait lines.
"his damage was almost double mine" I didn't realize the traits would have that much of an impact. I always figured the changes would be subtle such as thief doing +50-100 damage more, but not doubling damage or halving the damage.
This isn't playing to your playstyle, there is definitely going to be min-max.
I think if they removed the attributes on the traits, then the traits would feel more or less to you playing style. For example. mesmer dodging creates a clone
While this has the potential to be true for extreme builds, this will not be the main for most people. One need only look at how the attributes in each trait line affect your character to come to a perfectly valid conclusion that you'll need to spread the points a bit.
And if you "spread the points a bit", you'll be gimping your attributes.
Oh gawd, after reading this. I actually agree with you that they need to REMOVE the attributes in the trait lines.
"his damage was almost double mine" I didn't realize the traits would have that much of an impact. I always figured the changes would be subtle such as thief doing +50-100 damage more, but not doubling damage or halving the damage.
This isn't playing to your playstyle, there is definitely going to be min-max.
I think if they removed the attributes on the traits, then the traits would feel more or less to you playing style. For example. mesmer dodging creates a clone
While this has the potential to be true for extreme builds, this will not be the main for most people. One need only look at how the attributes in each trait line affect your character to come to a perfectly valid conclusion that you'll need to spread the points a bit.
And if you "spread the points a bit", you'll be gimping your attributes.
I am totally indifferent to the trait system as I have yet to try it, most people flaming the system have probably not tested it in the game environment either.. play the game... simple as!
While I'm sure a lot of people are flaming the system, I also believe there's valid constructive criticism out there. While I'm sure that players in beta will also give feedback, I hope that ArenaNet also gets feedback now as well.
For example, ArenaNet has stated that they designed their skill system to make it easy on new players and not overwhelm them with choices (here and here). The skill system only allows a comparatively small 1 million or so builds as a result. It's also impossible to make a truly bad build because you always have a weapon and a heal.
I have tried to call attention to that the trait system is literally 300x more complicated than the skill system (over 300 million builds). Also that it's possible to misallocate points (not in groups of 5 so you miss out on traits) and that you can take (or have forgetten to change) major traits which would provide no benefit to your skills.
These aren't my opinion, these are facts (unless you can correct my math). Nothing so far is subjective.
I realize that ArenaNet can do whatever they want to with that information, it's their game. I only wish them to be aware of it.
My subjective opinion is that this is inconsistent design which will make things more difficult than it has to be for new players. Other players have expressed other opinions. Maybe either side or both will benefit from experience in playing in the beta. But the underlying facts will remain the same unless ArenaNet modifies the system.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Straight from Eric Flannum himself... evidence we are worrying way too much over way too little.
Players could make a build that resembles the trinity but it could never truly be the trinity. You cannot for example make a dedicated healer no matter how much you pump into your support trait lines. When you start getting to tougher encounters no matter how much armor and health you have you will never be able to stand toe to toe for long against most of the foes you'll face. Because of this even a 5 person group that has 3 dps focused characters, a support focused character, and a damage soaking character (which is a standard trinity setup) will not play anything like a standard trinity group. If those players insisted on playing like a standard trinity group they could succeed against the easier content in the game but probably couldn't finish a story mode dungeon let alone an explorable dungeon or some of the tougher events in the game.
To go a little bit more in depth with the answer I gave, it doesn't really matter which professions you bring. Over the beta weekend I played through the dungeon with several different journalists and getting through was never a matter of bringing particular professions or even changing the builds that people were using. When we hit a tough patch people would change which weapons or utilities they were using but nobody ever had to go respec their traits. I was in groups that wiped multiple times in story mode but I was also in groups that did not wipe at all in story mode and was in one group that made it through explorable mode (we wiped a lot in that one). It all came down to how well we coordinated and how well we responded to the situations we encountered.
For example, in the explorable run through I think it was two journalists who were both warriors (one may have been a guardian, I'm having trouble recalling), our producer Chris Whiteside with a ranger, Izzy playing an elementalist, and myself playing an engineer. At different times Izzy was our condition removal guy, our debuffer, and our "tank" (bait is a more appropriate term actually). He was our most important player because he was our best player but he was actually very support/healing specced. The important thing about that group was that we were all talking and coordinating our efforts and coming up with strategies together. Those strategies never really revolved around specific skills but rather things like "We need condition removal" or "we need to stack as much vulnerability on this guy as possible" or even "we need Izzy to run around attracting attention while the rest of us activate the traps built into the area to kill the hordes of incoming mobs". I hope that helps shed some light on how the game plays.
Oh gawd, after reading this. I actually agree with you that they need to REMOVE the attributes in the trait lines.
"his damage was almost double mine" I didn't realize the traits would have that much of an impact. I always figured the changes would be subtle such as thief doing +50-100 damage more, but not doubling damage or halving the damage.
This isn't playing to your playstyle, there is definitely going to be min-max.
I think if they removed the attributes on the traits, then the traits would feel more or less to you playing style. For example. mesmer dodging creates a clone
While this has the potential to be true for extreme builds, this will not be the main for most people. One need only look at how the attributes in each trait line affect your character to come to a perfectly valid conclusion that you'll need to spread the points a bit.
And if you "spread the points a bit", you'll be gimping your attributes.
Both those builds work. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
2nd build has traits for 3 weapon types xP
Traiting more than 1 weapon type sounds like a bad idea in general.
You do realize that you swap between two weapon sets and a character running this build could have a Greatsword in one weapon set and Sword/Axe, or Axe/sword as the main/offhand weapons in the second set?
Oh gawd, after reading this. I actually agree with you that they need to REMOVE the attributes in the trait lines.
"his damage was almost double mine" I didn't realize the traits would have that much of an impact. I always figured the changes would be subtle such as thief doing +50-100 damage more, but not doubling damage or halving the damage.
This isn't playing to your playstyle, there is definitely going to be min-max.
I think if they removed the attributes on the traits, then the traits would feel more or less to you playing style. For example. mesmer dodging creates a clone
While this has the potential to be true for extreme builds, this will not be the main for most people. One need only look at how the attributes in each trait line affect your character to come to a perfectly valid conclusion that you'll need to spread the points a bit.
And if you "spread the points a bit", you'll be gimping your attributes.
Both those builds work. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
2nd build has traits for 3 weapon types xP
Traiting more than 1 weapon type sounds like a bad idea in general.
You do realize that you swap between two weapon sets and a character running this build could have a Greatsword in one weapon set and Sword/Axe, or Axe/sword as the main/offhand weapons in the second set?
and from what I could see both builds would work, I would go with burst damage and keep the S/S, rifle to take runners, pulls
plus we still need to see how most of the game would work, and for that is still to soon, also I can see here the hybrid vs pure will go strong for a long time
Oh gawd, after reading this. I actually agree with you that they need to REMOVE the attributes in the trait lines.
"his damage was almost double mine" I didn't realize the traits would have that much of an impact. I always figured the changes would be subtle such as thief doing +50-100 damage more, but not doubling damage or halving the damage.
This isn't playing to your playstyle, there is definitely going to be min-max.
I think if they removed the attributes on the traits, then the traits would feel more or less to you playing style. For example. mesmer dodging creates a clone
While this has the potential to be true for extreme builds, this will not be the main for most people. One need only look at how the attributes in each trait line affect your character to come to a perfectly valid conclusion that you'll need to spread the points a bit.
And if you "spread the points a bit", you'll be gimping your attributes.
Both those builds work. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
2nd build has traits for 3 weapon types xP
Traiting more than 1 weapon type sounds like a bad idea in general.
You do realize that you swap between two weapon sets and a character running this build could have a Greatsword in one weapon set and Sword/Axe, or Axe/sword as the main/offhand weapons in the second set?
and from what I could see both builds would work, I would go with burst damage and keep the S/S, rifle to take runners, pulls
plus we still need to see how most of the game would work, and for that is still to soon, also I can see here the hybrid vs pure will go strong for a long time
I don't think you can really look at the traits alone, you've really got to see what you're working with in terms of skills.
I think you've got to take advantage of some of these trait synergies, but at the same time I don't think you can go full DPS. If I was building this, I'm pretty sure I'd be using my gear to get at least moderate amounts of Toughness and Vitality.
Likewise to get a more balanced build I ended up taking two skills that help prevent being shut down. Shake It Off got the nod for the shorter cooldown and condition removal, though Signet of Stamina has some synergy with the Strength dodge damage trait. Signet of Fury was too synergistic to pass up. The heal, elite and riposte skill all fit right in. While making this I didn't even realize how well the Arms traits work with the Flurry burst skill in terms of being able to stack bleeds, either.
Rifle seems like an obvious choice for 2nd weapon. It gives you a bleed/vulnerability opener, and then either a cripple or (into a might boon from traits when swapping) a savage leap. If they try to get away (your sword also has a cripple and burst immobilize), you can swap back to it and cripple or burst kill shot.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
The trait system in the Press Beta is incomplete. They showed an average of six or seven traits for each trait line. At launch, there will be twelve for each trait line. Also, Arenanet are still in the process of tweking and balancing the trait attributes, to ensure that a point put in any trait line provides an equal level of benefit as a point put in any other trait line, from the attribute perspective.
It's a nice sneak peak, but most theorycrafting based on the press beta info will go out the window when the game launches.
Comments
Good point. Now I wonder what profession will be first hit by the nerf bat. I'm guessing Elementalist or Necro.
I am totally indifferent to the trait system as I have yet to try it, most people flaming the system have probably not tested it in the game environment either.. play the game... simple as!
All hail the Barn Owl! oh.. and the RED SQUIRREL!!!
Both those builds work. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
This is not a game.
2nd build has traits for 3 weapon types xP
Traiting more than 1 weapon type sounds like a bad idea in general.
Hype train -> Reality
While I'm sure a lot of people are flaming the system, I also believe there's valid constructive criticism out there. While I'm sure that players in beta will also give feedback, I hope that ArenaNet also gets feedback now as well.
For example, ArenaNet has stated that they designed their skill system to make it easy on new players and not overwhelm them with choices (here and here). The skill system only allows a comparatively small 1 million or so builds as a result. It's also impossible to make a truly bad build because you always have a weapon and a heal.
I have tried to call attention to that the trait system is literally 300x more complicated than the skill system (over 300 million builds). Also that it's possible to misallocate points (not in groups of 5 so you miss out on traits) and that you can take (or have forgetten to change) major traits which would provide no benefit to your skills.
These aren't my opinion, these are facts (unless you can correct my math). Nothing so far is subjective.
I realize that ArenaNet can do whatever they want to with that information, it's their game. I only wish them to be aware of it.
My subjective opinion is that this is inconsistent design which will make things more difficult than it has to be for new players. Other players have expressed other opinions. Maybe either side or both will benefit from experience in playing in the beta. But the underlying facts will remain the same unless ArenaNet modifies the system.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Straight from Eric Flannum himself... evidence we are worrying way too much over way too little.
Players could make a build that resembles the trinity but it could never truly be the trinity. You cannot for example make a dedicated healer no matter how much you pump into your support trait lines. When you start getting to tougher encounters no matter how much armor and health you have you will never be able to stand toe to toe for long against most of the foes you'll face. Because of this even a 5 person group that has 3 dps focused characters, a support focused character, and a damage soaking character (which is a standard trinity setup) will not play anything like a standard trinity group. If those players insisted on playing like a standard trinity group they could succeed against the easier content in the game but probably couldn't finish a story mode dungeon let alone an explorable dungeon or some of the tougher events in the game.
To go a little bit more in depth with the answer I gave, it doesn't really matter which professions you bring. Over the beta weekend I played through the dungeon with several different journalists and getting through was never a matter of bringing particular professions or even changing the builds that people were using. When we hit a tough patch people would change which weapons or utilities they were using but nobody ever had to go respec their traits. I was in groups that wiped multiple times in story mode but I was also in groups that did not wipe at all in story mode and was in one group that made it through explorable mode (we wiped a lot in that one). It all came down to how well we coordinated and how well we responded to the situations we encountered.
For example, in the explorable run through I think it was two journalists who were both warriors (one may have been a guardian, I'm having trouble recalling), our producer Chris Whiteside with a ranger, Izzy playing an elementalist, and myself playing an engineer. At different times Izzy was our condition removal guy, our debuffer, and our "tank" (bait is a more appropriate term actually). He was our most important player because he was our best player but he was actually very support/healing specced. The important thing about that group was that we were all talking and coordinating our efforts and coming up with strategies together. Those strategies never really revolved around specific skills but rather things like "We need condition removal" or "we need to stack as much vulnerability on this guy as possible" or even "we need Izzy to run around attracting attention while the rest of us activate the traps built into the area to kill the hordes of incoming mobs". I hope that helps shed some light on how the game plays.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You do realize that you swap between two weapon sets and a character running this build could have a Greatsword in one weapon set and Sword/Axe, or Axe/sword as the main/offhand weapons in the second set?
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
and from what I could see both builds would work, I would go with burst damage and keep the S/S, rifle to take runners, pulls
plus we still need to see how most of the game would work, and for that is still to soon, also I can see here the hybrid vs pure will go strong for a long time
I don't think you can really look at the traits alone, you've really got to see what you're working with in terms of skills.
I think this is my take on this kind of build.
http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/?lang=en&code=34b8003m443o424590au00udve2e41r1v2021
I think you've got to take advantage of some of these trait synergies, but at the same time I don't think you can go full DPS. If I was building this, I'm pretty sure I'd be using my gear to get at least moderate amounts of Toughness and Vitality.
Likewise to get a more balanced build I ended up taking two skills that help prevent being shut down. Shake It Off got the nod for the shorter cooldown and condition removal, though Signet of Stamina has some synergy with the Strength dodge damage trait. Signet of Fury was too synergistic to pass up. The heal, elite and riposte skill all fit right in. While making this I didn't even realize how well the Arms traits work with the Flurry burst skill in terms of being able to stack bleeds, either.
Rifle seems like an obvious choice for 2nd weapon. It gives you a bleed/vulnerability opener, and then either a cripple or (into a might boon from traits when swapping) a savage leap. If they try to get away (your sword also has a cripple and burst immobilize), you can swap back to it and cripple or burst kill shot.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I just want to re-inject this into the thread:
The trait system in the Press Beta is incomplete. They showed an average of six or seven traits for each trait line. At launch, there will be twelve for each trait line. Also, Arenanet are still in the process of tweking and balancing the trait attributes, to ensure that a point put in any trait line provides an equal level of benefit as a point put in any other trait line, from the attribute perspective.
It's a nice sneak peak, but most theorycrafting based on the press beta info will go out the window when the game launches.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Riiiiiight. I'll just stick to the way I do things, thanks.
This is not a game.