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  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Member UncommonPosts: 907

    Originally posted by Neverdyne

    Originally posted by Elikal

    And now they are falling flat on their noses. And oh don't come to me with that 1.7 millions. Millions also play Farmville and WOW. That says nothing about how GOOD a MMO is.

     

    No, you're right, only your subjective view of what an MMO needs to be can define if it is good or not. But wait, not only your opinion, but that of every single consumer defines if a game is fun or not. However, if you were to try and compare the quality of MMOs as objectively as possible, then maybe 10 million subjective views in have more weight over a few hundred? 

     

    I understand that you're angry. I found that with many games, MMOs especially, people tend to expect that gaming companies design the perfect game for them, and when this doesn't happen, because your dreams are shattered, people go on forums like this one to bitch and moan about it. 

     

    Now I'm not defending TOR specifically, because personally I didn't like it, but I also don't like the whiney attitude many people take when a game doesn't fulfill all their expectations. Simply, if you don't like a product, don't buy it. 

    Most people that play MMOs should not be playing MMOs. Why?

    Because They started playing  for all the wrong reasons.... it's cool.... everyone's doing it.... it's on sale.... my grandmother plays.... my girlfriend/boyfriend plays....

    If they started for these reasons and then fell in love with MMOs then that's great, but I honestly don't think the "majority" really are that great of fans of MMos or there wouldn't be so many calls to make MMOs into glorifiied Facebook apps. That's what the majority seems to really want.

    Unless a person starts playing MMos because a part of them deep down inside was actually hungering for a form of entertainment like MMO gaming, then they are probably in the wrong place.

    10 Million people CAN indeed be wrong.

  • BossalinieBossalinie Member UncommonPosts: 724

    Originally posted by Gardavsshade

    Originally posted by Neverdyne

    Originally posted by Elikal

    And now they are falling flat on their noses. And oh don't come to me with that 1.7 millions. Millions also play Farmville and WOW. That says nothing about how GOOD a MMO is.

     

    No, you're right, only your subjective view of what an MMO needs to be can define if it is good or not. But wait, not only your opinion, but that of every single consumer defines if a game is fun or not. However, if you were to try and compare the quality of MMOs as objectively as possible, then maybe 10 million subjective views in have more weight over a few hundred? 

     

    I understand that you're angry. I found that with many games, MMOs especially, people tend to expect that gaming companies design the perfect game for them, and when this doesn't happen, because your dreams are shattered, people go on forums like this one to bitch and moan about it. 

     

    Now I'm not defending TOR specifically, because personally I didn't like it, but I also don't like the whiney attitude many people take when a game doesn't fulfill all their expectations. Simply, if you don't like a product, don't buy it. 

    Most people that play MMOs should not be playing MMOs. They started playing  for all the wrong reasons.... it's cool.... everyone's doing it.... it's on sale.... my grandmother plays.... my girlfriend/boyfriend plays....

    Unless a person starts playing MMos because a part of them deep down inside was actually hungering for a form of entertainment like MMO gaiming, then they are probably in the wrong place.

    10 Million people CAN indeed be wrong.

    Yet the same person would turn around a say "why aren't more people playing this game" when their game is tanking from lack of population...

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Member RarePosts: 3,319

    As I recall, Elikal, leading up to launch, you were quite fickle in your relationship with TOR. One week you were giddy, the next raging about something.

    So, if the game had turned out to be something you enjoyed, would you have done a mirror post of this, "Told you so, the game rocks"?

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Member UncommonPosts: 907

    Originally posted by bossalinie

    Originally posted by Gardavsshade

    Originally posted by Neverdyne

    Originally posted by Elikal

    And now they are falling flat on their noses. And oh don't come to me with that 1.7 millions. Millions also play Farmville and WOW. That says nothing about how GOOD a MMO is.

     

    No, you're right, only your subjective view of what an MMO needs to be can define if it is good or not. But wait, not only your opinion, but that of every single consumer defines if a game is fun or not. However, if you were to try and compare the quality of MMOs as objectively as possible, then maybe 10 million subjective views in have more weight over a few hundred? 

     

    I understand that you're angry. I found that with many games, MMOs especially, people tend to expect that gaming companies design the perfect game for them, and when this doesn't happen, because your dreams are shattered, people go on forums like this one to bitch and moan about it. 

     

    Now I'm not defending TOR specifically, because personally I didn't like it, but I also don't like the whiney attitude many people take when a game doesn't fulfill all their expectations. Simply, if you don't like a product, don't buy it. 

    Most people that play MMOs should not be playing MMOs. They started playing  for all the wrong reasons.... it's cool.... everyone's doing it.... it's on sale.... my grandmother plays.... my girlfriend/boyfriend plays....

    Unless a person starts playing MMos because a part of them deep down inside was actually hungering for a form of entertainment like MMO gaiming, then they are probably in the wrong place.

    10 Million people CAN indeed be wrong.

    Yet the same person would turn around a say "why aren't more people playing this game" when their game is tanking from lack of population...

    Mediocrity. Pure and simple.

    It's not a good PvE MMO, it's not a good PvP MMO, it's not a good Crafting game, It's not a good Social place.

    They tried too hard to please everyone, instead of picking and chosing a target audience (they did pick a target audience but that audience has almost never wanted to play MMOs).

    Mediocrity. Even the Masses don't like Mediocrity.

  • Harbinger1975Harbinger1975 Member UncommonPosts: 244

    Originally posted by Elikal

    /arrogance mode on

    Sorry, but... I told you so. For two years I kept critizising SWTOR with the sole hope, it would have some effect, that people would chime in the critique and as result Bioware would rethink their "this isn't about Uncle Owen" design and their "story" fixation.

     

    I told you so. I sometimes wonder where now all the people are who bashed and attacked me for 2 years straight as hater and naysayer? They all vanished. Man, where are thine accusers now? I really wish just once, these people would have the decency to say, sorry we attacked you those 2 years on, but you were right and we were wrong. Just as justice for the many times I had to endure flames, hate and persecution.

    I TOLD you all, you CAN not base a MMO so much only on story! I told you time and again that companies err when they think, the "average" MMO gamer playes 1-2 hours. I TOLD YOU people would burn through the story content in a few weeks and THEN WHAT? And I also told you time and again (and some others said that too), that ONLY sandbox elements ADDED to the story would allow people to do stuff to take a break from story-story-story. I also told you it would TIRE people to always be in heroic, important story and that as a result "when all is heroic, nothing feel heroic and special". I told you a MMO needs elements that are usually called "sandbox" or whatever, like real housing with furniture, like entertainers, music system, fishing, real complex full crafting, dyeing, farming (lotro!) and a heckload of other stuff to "fill the time". But it wasn't about Unlce Owen, right? Bioware was oh so full of themselves with their "we know better" and "heroes don't do THAT kind of stuff".

    I TOLD you the worlds look sterile, empty and dead. (Not to speak of the total lack of almost ANY ambient sounds.) It was all on the table but you were all wiser and said, no it would be a huge success, and Bioware listened to you that "all was alright"!

     

    And now they are falling flat on their noses. And oh don't come to me with that 1.7 millions. Millions also play Farmville and WOW. That says nothing about how GOOD a MMO is. And relatively speaking we all know many servers have severely lost the actively playing numbers, almost all guilds have been bled of active players, and 1.2 does not look like the real turnaround.

    And you know, I REALLY just wished to help making this a better game that it became. Like the few other critical voices. So if there are people to blame why SWTOR is such a mediocre game, you just have to look into the mirror. All those people who always lulled Bioware in the false impression that this was what people wanted, and this was good and well and that all critics were just haters.

    But you know what the REAL shame is: with the next MMO failure, it will be just the same way again. A handful will warn you, you won't listen and then all bad predictions will fall upon us, because developers listen to fanbois. For the 6 years I am in this forum it has been like "Groundhog Day" to me with almost every single MMO developed. Some warn you, masses flame them down, devs listen to fanbois, game fails. Rince repeat.

     

    /arrogance mode off

    Elikal, you're not a bad poster, and sometime you have some decent points.  But I really think you need to step off of your soap box a minute. 

    Should I point you at RIFT?  They started out slow as well.  And now they have a health player base.  It will take time for SWTOR to level off in the same way. 

    There's no need to call for doom and gloom.  SWTOR will do what SWTOR will do. Like it or hate it.

    image
    image

  • musicmannmusicmann Member UncommonPosts: 1,095

    Originally posted by bossalinie

    Originally posted by musicmann

    You know, i did my time, in TOR and for the first 2 months it was ok.

     

    Just think about all the goodness TOR could have had, and how TOR should have read right out the box:

     

    Huge open explorable planets with beasts that roam and attack not only players but each other

    32 professions that include Sith and Jedi

    Dynamic resource complex crafting   (crafted items are best in game)

    A open space game

    Housing / City building

    Personal story VO / cutscenes

    Epic group content

    Very indepth Character creation with non human playable races

    Elaborite skill point system

    Open world PVP with a Overt / Covert system

    Bounty Hunting

    Lightside / Darkside points

    Three factions: The Sith Empire, The Republic and Neutral

    Player owned in game vendors

    Player Guilds

    Player run virtual economy

    City Bazaars

    17 lush and diversified Planets

     

    All this, set in the Old Republic timeline. Now, doesn't this look much more fun and better than how it is now.

    I spy...

     

    someone looking for SWG2...



    Well, Bioware did say they knew the difference between Sandbox and Themepark and TOR would land somewhere right in the middle of the two. They should have took systems from SWG, since some of the main devs worked on the origional SWG and other sandbox idea's and tweaked them as well as create some new and innovative ones to fit with their 4th pillar of story. 

    In my opinion, they neutered  the SW IP and made a SPG with online options, not a mmoprg, that is nothing more than a closed in shoeboxed game with nothing but run and kill quests. They used the wrong mold to follow when they chose to make a mmo like WOW. Hell, i can't even say they did that really, because TOR lacks so many things that WOW had from day 1 launch.

    It's not wanting a SWG2, but the open and freedom that a SW mmorpg really deserves to be.

     

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    Originally posted by ScorpionOne

    Originally posted by Elikal

    /arrogance mode on

    Sorry, but... I told you so. For two years I kept critizising SWTOR with the sole hope, it would have some effect, that people would chime in the critique and as result Bioware would rethink their "this isn't about Uncle Owen" design and their "story" fixation.

     

    I told you so. I sometimes wonder where now all the people are who bashed and attacked me for 2 years straight as hater and naysayer? They all vanished. Man, where are thine accusers now? I really wish just once, these people would have the decency to say, sorry we attacked you those 2 years on, but you were right and we were wrong. Just as justice for the many times I had to endure flames, hate and persecution.

    I TOLD you all, you CAN not base a MMO so much only on story! I told you time and again that companies err when they think, the "average" MMO gamer playes 1-2 hours. I TOLD YOU people would burn through the story content in a few weeks and THEN WHAT? And I also told you time and again (and some others said that too), that ONLY sandbox elements ADDED to the story would allow people to do stuff to take a break from story-story-story. I also told you it would TIRE people to always be in heroic, important story and that as a result "when all is heroic, nothing feel heroic and special". I told you a MMO needs elements that are usually called "sandbox" or whatever, like real housing with furniture, like entertainers, music system, fishing, real complex full crafting, dyeing, farming (lotro!) and a heckload of other stuff to "fill the time". But it wasn't about Unlce Owen, right? Bioware was oh so full of themselves with their "we know better" and "heroes don't do THAT kind of stuff".

    I TOLD you the worlds look sterile, empty and dead. (Not to speak of the total lack of almost ANY ambient sounds.) It was all on the table but you were all wiser and said, no it would be a huge success, and Bioware listened to you that "all was alright"!

     

    And now they are falling flat on their noses. And oh don't come to me with that 1.7 millions. Millions also play Farmville and WOW. That says nothing about how GOOD a MMO is. And relatively speaking we all know many servers have severely lost the actively playing numbers, almost all guilds have been bled of active players, and 1.2 does not look like the real turnaround.

    And you know, I REALLY just wished to help making this a better game that it became. Like the few other critical voices. So if there are people to blame why SWTOR is such a mediocre game, you just have to look into the mirror. All those people who always lulled Bioware in the false impression that this was what people wanted, and this was good and well and that all critics were just haters.

    But you know what the REAL shame is: with the next MMO failure, it will be just the same way again. A handful will warn you, you won't listen and then all bad predictions will fall upon us, because developers listen to fanbois. For the 6 years I am in this forum it has been like "Groundhog Day" to me with almost every single MMO developed. Some warn you, masses flame them down, devs listen to fanbois, game fails. Rince repeat.

     

    /arrogance mode off

    Elikal, you're not a bad poster, and sometime you have some decent points.  But I really think you need to step off of your soap box a minute. 

    Should I point you at RIFT?  They started out slow as well.  And now they have a health player base.  It will take time for SWTOR to level off in the same way. 

    There's no need to call for doom and gloom.  SWTOR will do what SWTOR will do. Like it or hate it.



    You see, the reason I sometimes need to step on the "soap box" is, I am here in this forum a pretty long time, and I have a LOT of discussions, and so many MMOs which really COULD and SHOULD have been a great success failed. And IMVPO, they failed for reasons which were easy to forsee. Still, developers failed to see the obvious flaws, and I think the masses of "fanbois" did their part in this. IF lots of people during development would rise up and say "hey THIS is not ok!" then maybe some MMOs would have been better. I have seen so many potentially good MMO fail, and it just makes me both sad and angry. Most MMO failures were so unnecessary. Games like WAR, AoC, Vanguard asf. could easily have been great MMO and "the next big thing" if developers would not listen so blindly only to those who praise their work as the next Holy Grail. I so would like to break this cycle and finally see a REALLY good MMO that does NOT all set on one card, like here story, and ignore the rest.

    The flaws were so easy to see and so obvious. SWTOR, like AoC or WAR, isn't a bad game. But compared to what it could and should have been, it is just awfully mediocre. Not to speak of the fact that with THAT budget it is just absurd to see how mediocre the result is. I mean, where the heck did those millions of Dollars and years of development get to? With so much money, so much time and so many people working on it, with so many years MMO history to learn from THIS is the result? Sorry, I can't help but feel quite agitated about that.

     

    If Bioware really learns from this, I am the first to admit that. But what we see is nothing like that. It is just "more of the same". More endgame grind, more operations, more flashpoints (I already find it impossible to find people for mid level flashpoints!) and a new warzone - which probably is needed. But NONE of the core issues are even talked about. Like reworking the planets to make them like living worlds, animated and with ambient sounds. And how the heck did this 300 million dollar MMO launch with barely ANY ambient sounds? Often when the speeder noise shuts down (as it seems due to a bug), the game is DEAD silence though long times. I mean, how on earth can THAT be? Busy planets like Nar Shadda, Coruscant asf are almost completely silent. NPCs just stand there. Almost no critters in the forests or meadows. Almost no cantina life. Almost nothing "sandboxy" to do when you don't want to "do story heroics". They didn't announce anything that shows me they realized their design errors. For them, all is well and we just get more of the same. I just don't see they realize the shortcomings. SWTOR is a nice game for 1-2 or maybe 3 story runs. That is nice and well. But then what?

     

    And there are MUCH less people who love months and months of endgame grind than MMO developers THINK. MMO levelling has become WAY too fast in recent years, and as a result, people reach max level in weeks these days and developers add tons of endgame grind that only a minority really likes. What we need is MMOs being again worlds to live in, places to spent lots of time with things people make by themselves! That is something developers just don't get, and as long as they just care about the big buck by selling tons of copies for a game which has a 6 months hayday, we gamers who want more complex games are screwed.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • SoopamanSoopaman Member Posts: 65

    mmorpg.com and faux news are one in the same. Full on nothing but hate speech, name calling, and lack anything constructive.  

    The Gaming Community Can Kiss My Arse

  • HricaHrica Member UncommonPosts: 1,129

    /arogance mode on

     

    LOL go outside dude

     

    /arogance mode off

     

    yup SW is taking a nose dive.

  • musicmannmusicmann Member UncommonPosts: 1,095

    Originally posted by Elikal

    Originally posted by ScorpionOne

    Originally posted by Elikal

    /arrogance mode on

    Sorry, but... I told you so. For two years I kept critizising SWTOR with the sole hope, it would have some effect, that people would chime in the critique and as result Bioware would rethink their "this isn't about Uncle Owen" design and their "story" fixation.

     

    I told you so. I sometimes wonder where now all the people are who bashed and attacked me for 2 years straight as hater and naysayer? They all vanished. Man, where are thine accusers now? I really wish just once, these people would have the decency to say, sorry we attacked you those 2 years on, but you were right and we were wrong. Just as justice for the many times I had to endure flames, hate and persecution.

    I TOLD you all, you CAN not base a MMO so much only on story! I told you time and again that companies err when they think, the "average" MMO gamer playes 1-2 hours. I TOLD YOU people would burn through the story content in a few weeks and THEN WHAT? And I also told you time and again (and some others said that too), that ONLY sandbox elements ADDED to the story would allow people to do stuff to take a break from story-story-story. I also told you it would TIRE people to always be in heroic, important story and that as a result "when all is heroic, nothing feel heroic and special". I told you a MMO needs elements that are usually called "sandbox" or whatever, like real housing with furniture, like entertainers, music system, fishing, real complex full crafting, dyeing, farming (lotro!) and a heckload of other stuff to "fill the time". But it wasn't about Unlce Owen, right? Bioware was oh so full of themselves with their "we know better" and "heroes don't do THAT kind of stuff".

    I TOLD you the worlds look sterile, empty and dead. (Not to speak of the total lack of almost ANY ambient sounds.) It was all on the table but you were all wiser and said, no it would be a huge success, and Bioware listened to you that "all was alright"!

     

    And now they are falling flat on their noses. And oh don't come to me with that 1.7 millions. Millions also play Farmville and WOW. That says nothing about how GOOD a MMO is. And relatively speaking we all know many servers have severely lost the actively playing numbers, almost all guilds have been bled of active players, and 1.2 does not look like the real turnaround.

    And you know, I REALLY just wished to help making this a better game that it became. Like the few other critical voices. So if there are people to blame why SWTOR is such a mediocre game, you just have to look into the mirror. All those people who always lulled Bioware in the false impression that this was what people wanted, and this was good and well and that all critics were just haters.

    But you know what the REAL shame is: with the next MMO failure, it will be just the same way again. A handful will warn you, you won't listen and then all bad predictions will fall upon us, because developers listen to fanbois. For the 6 years I am in this forum it has been like "Groundhog Day" to me with almost every single MMO developed. Some warn you, masses flame them down, devs listen to fanbois, game fails. Rince repeat.

     

    /arrogance mode off

    Elikal, you're not a bad poster, and sometime you have some decent points.  But I really think you need to step off of your soap box a minute. 

    Should I point you at RIFT?  They started out slow as well.  And now they have a health player base.  It will take time for SWTOR to level off in the same way. 

    There's no need to call for doom and gloom.  SWTOR will do what SWTOR will do. Like it or hate it.



    You see, the reason I sometimes need to step on the "soap box" is, I am here in this forum a pretty long time, and I have a LOT of discussions, and so many MMOs which really COULD and SHOULD have been a great success failed. And IMVPO, they failed for reasons which were easy to forsee. Still, developers failed to see the obvious flaws, and I think the masses of "fanbois" did their part in this. IF lots of people during development would rise up and say "hey THIS is not ok!" then maybe some MMOs would have been better. I have seen so many potentially good MMO fail, and it just makes me both sad and angry. Most MMO failures were so unnecessary. Games lik WAR, AoC, Vanguard asf. could easily have been great MMO and "the next big thing" if developers would not listen so blindly only to those who praise their work as the next Holy Grail. I so would like to break this cycle and finally see a REALLY good MMO that does NOT all set on one card, like here story, and ignore the rest.

    The flaws were so easy to see and so obvious. SWTOR, like AoC or WAR, isn't a bad game. But compared to what it could and should have been, it is just awfully mediocre. Not to speak of the fact that with THAT budget it is just absurd to see how mediocre the result is. I mean, where the heck did those millions of Dollars and years of development get to? With so much money, so much time and so many people working on it, with so many years MMO history to learn from THIS is the result? Sorry, I can't help but feel quite agitated about that.



    So true. TOR is gamings, Waterworld

  • DraykonDraykon Member Posts: 2

    Originally posted by Leethe

    Originally posted by Elikal

    /arrogance mode on

    And you know, I REALLY just wished to help making this a better game that it became. Like the few other critical voices. So if there are people to blame why SWTOR is such a mediocre game, you just have to look into the mirror. All those people who always lulled Bioware in the false impression that this was what people wanted, and this was good and well and that all critics were just haters.

    But you know what the REAL shame is: with the next MMO failure, it will be just the same way again. A handful will warn you, you won't listen and then all bad predictions will fall upon us, because developers listen to fanbois. For the 6 years I am in this forum it has been like "Groundhog Day" to me with almost every single MMO developed. Some warn you, masses flame them down, devs listen to fanbois, game fails. Rince repeat.

     

    /arrogance mode off

    You may have illusions of grandeur and you've actually told me nothing. Tor is exactly the game I played in beta. No surprises for me. It would be one thing if you were warning folks about the dangers of, say, deep fried mars bars or mixing citrus and dairy but this is a game. Lighten up.

     

    This post right here has brought me out of a long period of not posting on this site.  I've thought about posting a message very close to the OP's for a long time.  I played this game for six months in beta and took a bashing from fanboys and the devs for criticising this game during that time.

    I was repeatedly told that the beta client was three or more builds behind the release client and Bioware was just trying different systems on us.  While also being told by the dev team (when we actually heard from them) that our feedback was not necessary as their internal testers had found all the major bugs.

    I want to applaud the OP and laugh in the face of posters like this one who blindly follow EA down the money pit.  This game will die very swiftly the moment a new MMO comes out.  It's as shallow as any game I've ever played.  It's not a MMO in any traditional sense and it's the most poorly managed game I've been a part of. 

    I hope gaming companies learn from this mismanagement of tremendous resources and give us a game worth calling home. 

     

  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292

    dang, I could have sworn you were one of the folks behind TOR. For some reason your name pops into my head when I think of TOR(along with some other forum names).  And I thought it was cause you were for TOR, not against...I think it was because of the number of people that come to mind when I think of TOR and I forgot which ones were critics vs fanbois.

    image


    image

  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292

    Originally posted by musicmann

     



    So true. TOR is gamings, Waterworld

    OMG! musicmann!! long time no see. I remember you being a pretty big TOR fan before launch. I take it you found some stuff you didn't like in it as well?

    Like Elikal said, there are a couple of TOR abid followers that have kind of dissapeared from the forums after the release, or at least I don't see them as much. I am still wondering were the heck is MMO.Maverick....

    image


    image

  • rygard49rygard49 Member UncommonPosts: 973

    I'm confused. Is this a thread about TOR being successful, or good? Because those two concepts are mutually exclusive. Success just means they get subs and make money. Good is a subjective concept dependant on the indivual playing the game.

    If you think the game is bad, no one can argue with you. That's your opinion. If you think the game is a failure, I have to disagree based on current sub numbers and the fact that it's netting a profit for the company.

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Member Posts: 731

    Originally posted by bossalinie

    Originally posted by musicmann

    You know, i did my time, in TOR and for the first 2 months it was ok.

     

    Just think about all the goodness TOR could have had, and how TOR should have read right out the box:

     

    Huge open explorable planets with beasts that roam and attack not only players but each other

    32 professions that include Sith and Jedi

    Dynamic resource complex crafting   (crafted items are best in game)

    A open space game

    Housing / City building

    Personal story VO / cutscenes

    Epic group content

    Very indepth Character creation with non human playable races

    Elaborite skill point system

    Open world PVP with a Overt / Covert system

    Bounty Hunting

    Lightside / Darkside points

    Three factions: The Sith Empire, The Republic and Neutral

    Player owned in game vendors

    Player Guilds

    Player run virtual economy

    City Bazaars

    17 lush and diversified Planets

     

    All this, set in the Old Republic timeline. Now, doesn't this look much more fun and better than how it is now.

    I spy...

     

    someone looking for SWG2...

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/738/The-Repopulation.html

This discussion has been closed.