The reason is because it is Star Wars something with a zillion hardcore fans, most of who were totally disappointed and let down by pretty much every part of what should have been the most epic game we have ever played.
You can't do Star Wars, half-assed and not expect this reaction.
The trick is in listening to what these developers *don't* say when they are hyping up their game.
That is very good advice. I logged in here just so I could agree with you.
Another bit of advice to help people see through the smoke and mirrors of pre-release hype is this: If a developer IMPLIES something about his game but won't explicitly state that what he implied is actually so or give the details about it.....then you can bet that it's really just the opposite or at best it will be poorly implemented.
If you get a chance to ask questions of a dev and they give evasive answers which sort of vaguely imply great things without actually telling you anything specific then you can bet that they are being evasive for a reason.
Ok, that's all I wanted to say. I haven't bought ToR and only played it a little in the open beta so I can't join the rest of the discussion. I just wanted to chime in on that bit about sorting through the hype.
Man...this game is controversial. I don't think I can remember another game where the forums were STILL hopping with "this game is awesome" vs. "this game is the spawn of El Diablo!" threads almost three months after release.
AoC forums were terrible for more than three months.
@Creslin: While I agree with some points you make, I disagree with others. SWTOR DID do several new things or what hadn't been done in that way beforehand: companions, ...
I don't believe that BW did anything New with Companions.
Almost all MMOs have them...They are called Pets. However, they way they are implemented in SWTOR just adds to the independence of the players and is yet one more tool that allows the playerbase to isolate itself from one another.
For example, you can't do Star Wars half-assed and not expect backlash from people who expected more, given the IP, the development power behind it and the money that went into it.
@Creslin: While I agree with some points you make, I disagree with others. SWTOR DID do several new things or what hadn't been done in that way beforehand: companions, ...
I don't believe that BW did anything New with Companions.
Almost all MMOs have them...They are called Pets. However, they way they are implemented in SWTOR just adds to the independence of the players and is yet one more tool that allows the playerbase to isolate itself from one another.
Yeah, companions are definitely similar to pets, almost identical in combat. The only difference is that every class has them, the whole crew skills things, and the fact that they have a personality.
So I will grant that companions are a bit different than pets. That said though, companions are one of the PRIMARY things that push the whole "single player" feel of this game. You don't have to group, because you are always in one with an NPC! I think it totally misses the point of an MMORPG.
SW:TOR is an unfinished buggy single player coop game that demanded a premium price and subscription.
^^ This
Id buy the game and play it without a sub fee. If it was moderately priced, because its a single player game, with co op. Having played the beta I dont think it deserves a F2P status, but rather, a B2P one. But charging a monthly? Naaaah.
For example, you can't do Star Wars half-assed and not expect backlash from people who expected more, given the IP, the development power behind it and the money that went into it.
To be honest, and this is sad to say, but I would really expect that SW fans would be used to half assed crap by now. I mean we have:
Masters of the Teras Kasi
The Holiday Special
Lucas' constant butchering of the OT
THE PREQUELS
In truth, I really just had to say the prequels ...
SW:TOR is an unfinished buggy single player coop game that demanded a premium price and subscription.
^^ This
Id buy the game and play it without a sub fee. If it was moderately priced, because its a single player game, with co op. Having played the beta I dont think it deserves a F2P status, but rather, a B2P one. But charging a monthly? Naaaah.
I agree with what you say, but I don't think the marketing was the only issue.
What I'm getting at is that, in terms of whether it is a CORPG or an MMORPG, SWTOR seems "confused." On one hand, they create a game with very sharded zones, tons of instances, a lack of any decent social hubs, and lots of involved quests that cater to soloing. But then on the other hand, they refuse to implement things like dungeon finder because that would "kill the sense community."
I just can't help but think that the game design itself already killed the sense of community! It's like they want to be an MMORPG, but they don't really understand what they means beyond having a persistent world...almost as if they read the definition on wikipedia and used that as their primary direction when creating an MMORPG.
I really think SWTOR would have been MUCH better, if they just designed it as a CORPG from the ground up...like Guild Wars. Instanced zones, but persistent social hubs where you could meet people.
@Creslin: While I agree with some points you make, I disagree with others. SWTOR DID do several new things or what hadn't been done in that way beforehand: companions, ...
I don't believe that BW did anything New with Companions.
Almost all MMOs have them...They are called Pets. However, they way they are implemented in SWTOR just adds to the independence of the players and is yet one more tool that allows the playerbase to isolate itself from one another.
Yeah, companions are definitely similar to pets, almost identical in combat. The only difference is that every class has them, the whole crew skills things, and the fact that they have a personality.
So I will grant that companions are a bit different than pets. That said though, companions are one of the PRIMARY things that push the whole "single player" feel of this game. You don't have to group, because you are always in one with an NPC! I think it totally misses the point of an MMORPG.
Bioware has taken theme park to the furthest envelope. You can basically play this "massive multiplayer" game solo from start to finish with little to no problem. You barely have to deal with real people at all. It is also extremely linear. The only two areas where people can roam are to look for datacrons, which is not a whole lot right there, and the open PVP on Ilum, which was so horribly implemented that it has been temporarily neutered.
While one might say it is a great implementation of an endless KOTOR single player game, that also strikes me as untrue. In KOTOR, the game was all about you and you were the hero. In SWTOR, you realize early on this is an illusion. You are surrounded by thousands of people visibly doing the same "epic, unique and galaxy-saving" things you are doing. If they are your same class, they have the same Jedi/Sith Master, same nemesis, same same everything. It is like playing KOTOR with a bunch of alternative realities running simultaneously, ghosts surrounded by other ghosts. It is just too weird and is the opposite of immersive.
The worst part of all this? Bioware and EA are making money. They have won. Hence, they will double down. We will see more of the same linear, theme park, soul-destroying approaches in the future. The marketing and sales people are running the show now. Everything else takes back seat.
People are just pissed that despite having plenty of funding, a solid Dev house, well loved IP that SWTOR should have been one of the most amazing titles of all time. Instead what was delivered is unwhelming in more areas than it excels in so the backlash is severe.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
@Creslin: While I agree with some points you make, I disagree with others. SWTOR DID do several new things or what hadn't been done in that way beforehand: companions, ...
I don't believe that BW did anything New with Companions.
Almost all MMOs have them...They are called Pets. However, they way they are implemented in SWTOR just adds to the independence of the players and is yet one more tool that allows the playerbase to isolate itself from one another.
Yeah, companions are definitely similar to pets, almost identical in combat. The only difference is that every class has them, the whole crew skills things, and the fact that they have a personality.
So I will grant that companions are a bit different than pets. That said though, companions are one of the PRIMARY things that push the whole "single player" feel of this game. You don't have to group, because you are always in one with an NPC! I think it totally misses the point of an MMORPG.
@Creslin: While I agree with some points you make, I disagree with others. SWTOR DID do several new things or what hadn't been done in that way beforehand: companions, ...
I don't believe that BW did anything New with Companions.
Almost all MMOs have them...They are called Pets. However, they way they are implemented in SWTOR just adds to the independence of the players and is yet one more tool that allows the playerbase to isolate itself from one another.
Yeah, companions are definitely similar to pets, almost identical in combat. The only difference is that every class has them, the whole crew skills things, and the fact that they have a personality.
So I will grant that companions are a bit different than pets. That said though, companions are one of the PRIMARY things that push the whole "single player" feel of this game. You don't have to group, because you are always in one with an NPC! I think it totally misses the point of an MMORPG.
Regardless, GW had them before. Thus, not new.
GW was not an MMORPG
Nor is SWTOR. Ironically, this is what both games (GW and SWTOR) have in common. They are both CORPGs.
@Creslin: While I agree with some points you make, I disagree with others. SWTOR DID do several new things or what hadn't been done in that way beforehand: companions, ...
I don't believe that BW did anything New with Companions.
Almost all MMOs have them...They are called Pets. However, they way they are implemented in SWTOR just adds to the independence of the players and is yet one more tool that allows the playerbase to isolate itself from one another.
Yeah, companions are definitely similar to pets, almost identical in combat. The only difference is that every class has them, the whole crew skills things, and the fact that they have a personality.
So I will grant that companions are a bit different than pets. That said though, companions are one of the PRIMARY things that push the whole "single player" feel of this game. You don't have to group, because you are always in one with an NPC! I think it totally misses the point of an MMORPG.
Regardless, GW had them before. Thus, not new.
GW was not an MMORPG
Nor is SWTOR. Ironically, this is what both games (GW and SWTOR) have in common. They are both CORPGs.
I will agree that SWTOR is not a true MMORPG....But this just re enforces the OP's stance. Since BW marketed it as such. GW was not.
We will see more of the same linear, theme park, soul-destroying approaches in the future. The marketing and sales people are running the show now. Everything else takes back seat.
Wow. I thought I felt a bit off today. Actually thought I was coming down with a cold, but must just be my soul being destroyed.
Those evil, soulless (obviously) marketing and sales people.
We will see more of the same linear, theme park, soul-destroying approaches in the future. The marketing and sales people are running the show now. Everything else takes back seat.
Wow. I thought I felt a bit off today. Actually thought I was coming down with a cold, but must just be my soul being destroyed.
Those evil, soulless (obviously) marketing and sales people.
No they have souls, they just sold them for chance to earn a decent living.
I think the hate is really around how people are judging it. They are judging it based on what makes a great MMO. SWTOR pretty much did not fit ANYBODY's vision of a great MMO. Not the themparkers (not enough MMO features like grouping tools, macros, fluid combat, etc) nor the sandboxers (nothing sandboxy at all). Therefore very few people on an MMO forum, which are filled with people looking for MMOs, will defend it.
I personally think if you view it as simply a story driven RPG, with the ability to play alongside and occassionally with many other people, that it would be viewed more positively. Not the greatest story driven RPG ever, but the ones that are better don't have thousands playing at once. I would give it a positive review through this lens. I personally only played for a month though because once the story was done, I thought it was lacking in many ways particularly PVP.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Comments
Well, to put it in one phrase,
SW:TOR is an unfinished buggy single player coop game that demanded a premium price and subscription.
I really like the game...
That is very good advice. I logged in here just so I could agree with you.
Another bit of advice to help people see through the smoke and mirrors of pre-release hype is this: If a developer IMPLIES something about his game but won't explicitly state that what he implied is actually so or give the details about it.....then you can bet that it's really just the opposite or at best it will be poorly implemented.
If you get a chance to ask questions of a dev and they give evasive answers which sort of vaguely imply great things without actually telling you anything specific then you can bet that they are being evasive for a reason.
Ok, that's all I wanted to say. I haven't bought ToR and only played it a little in the open beta so I can't join the rest of the discussion. I just wanted to chime in on that bit about sorting through the hype.
This
AoC forums were terrible for more than three months.
Published by EA
You sure about that? Shouldn't maybe, but can't?
I don't believe that BW did anything New with Companions.
Almost all MMOs have them...They are called Pets. However, they way they are implemented in SWTOR just adds to the independence of the players and is yet one more tool that allows the playerbase to isolate itself from one another.
There's an implied meaning to the "can't".
For example, you can't do Star Wars half-assed and not expect backlash from people who expected more, given the IP, the development power behind it and the money that went into it.
Yeah, companions are definitely similar to pets, almost identical in combat. The only difference is that every class has them, the whole crew skills things, and the fact that they have a personality.
So I will grant that companions are a bit different than pets. That said though, companions are one of the PRIMARY things that push the whole "single player" feel of this game. You don't have to group, because you are always in one with an NPC! I think it totally misses the point of an MMORPG.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
^^ This
Id buy the game and play it without a sub fee. If it was moderately priced, because its a single player game, with co op. Having played the beta I dont think it deserves a F2P status, but rather, a B2P one. But charging a monthly? Naaaah.
To be honest, and this is sad to say, but I would really expect that SW fans would be used to half assed crap by now. I mean we have:
Masters of the Teras Kasi
The Holiday Special
Lucas' constant butchering of the OT
THE PREQUELS
In truth, I really just had to say the prequels
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I agree with what you say, but I don't think the marketing was the only issue.
What I'm getting at is that, in terms of whether it is a CORPG or an MMORPG, SWTOR seems "confused." On one hand, they create a game with very sharded zones, tons of instances, a lack of any decent social hubs, and lots of involved quests that cater to soloing. But then on the other hand, they refuse to implement things like dungeon finder because that would "kill the sense community."
I just can't help but think that the game design itself already killed the sense of community! It's like they want to be an MMORPG, but they don't really understand what they means beyond having a persistent world...almost as if they read the definition on wikipedia and used that as their primary direction when creating an MMORPG.
I really think SWTOR would have been MUCH better, if they just designed it as a CORPG from the ground up...like Guild Wars. Instanced zones, but persistent social hubs where you could meet people.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
The last time i logged into SWTOR i though... id rather be playing WoW... I logged out and couldnt log back in.
The fact is WoW is simply a better game than SWTOR. WoW will always be better than its clones, it has years and years of polish.
They need to stop making direct clones...
Remember Old School Ultima Online
Regardless, GW had them before. Thus, not new.
I agree with the general thrust of the OP.
Bioware has taken theme park to the furthest envelope. You can basically play this "massive multiplayer" game solo from start to finish with little to no problem. You barely have to deal with real people at all. It is also extremely linear. The only two areas where people can roam are to look for datacrons, which is not a whole lot right there, and the open PVP on Ilum, which was so horribly implemented that it has been temporarily neutered.
While one might say it is a great implementation of an endless KOTOR single player game, that also strikes me as untrue. In KOTOR, the game was all about you and you were the hero. In SWTOR, you realize early on this is an illusion. You are surrounded by thousands of people visibly doing the same "epic, unique and galaxy-saving" things you are doing. If they are your same class, they have the same Jedi/Sith Master, same nemesis, same same everything. It is like playing KOTOR with a bunch of alternative realities running simultaneously, ghosts surrounded by other ghosts. It is just too weird and is the opposite of immersive.
The worst part of all this? Bioware and EA are making money. They have won. Hence, they will double down. We will see more of the same linear, theme park, soul-destroying approaches in the future. The marketing and sales people are running the show now. Everything else takes back seat.
Unless you are George Lucas; then you can only do Star Wars half-assed.
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
Instead what was delivered is unwhelming in more areas than it excels in so the backlash is severe.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
GW was not an MMORPG
Not even he.
One word: Jar-Jar
Nor is SWTOR. Ironically, this is what both games (GW and SWTOR) have in common. They are both CORPGs.
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
I will agree that SWTOR is not a true MMORPG....But this just re enforces the OP's stance. Since BW marketed it as such. GW was not.
Wow. I thought I felt a bit off today. Actually thought I was coming down with a cold, but must just be my soul being destroyed.
Those evil, soulless (obviously) marketing and sales people.
Wow. I thought I felt a bit off today. Actually thought I was coming down with a cold, but must just be my soul being destroyed.
Those evil, soulless (obviously) marketing and sales people.
No they have souls, they just sold them for chance to earn a decent living.I think the hate is really around how people are judging it. They are judging it based on what makes a great MMO. SWTOR pretty much did not fit ANYBODY's vision of a great MMO. Not the themparkers (not enough MMO features like grouping tools, macros, fluid combat, etc) nor the sandboxers (nothing sandboxy at all). Therefore very few people on an MMO forum, which are filled with people looking for MMOs, will defend it.
I personally think if you view it as simply a story driven RPG, with the ability to play alongside and occassionally with many other people, that it would be viewed more positively. Not the greatest story driven RPG ever, but the ones that are better don't have thousands playing at once. I would give it a positive review through this lens. I personally only played for a month though because once the story was done, I thought it was lacking in many ways particularly PVP.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements