In the old days you had F2P titles with P2W cash shops, then in a glorious stroke of innovation Anet sold us B2P titles with P2W cash shops and a subset of the MMO population cried out in thanks.
Trolling again
ANet with GW1 didn't even had the cash shop when it was launched... It was implemented after and offers character outfits, extra char slots, name change, gender change, bonus mission pack for EOTN, pvp items and spells for pvp char only, and that's about it I think...
So where's the P2W in that GW cash shop?
If what you just said is correct then the PvP spells and items you said were in GW1 would be the standard definition of pay to win
Really that's pretty funny because just the other day someone was asking for help in GW1 in the pvp area I was in while waiting to play. So I message him and tell him maybe he should join a few games until he has enough points to get an elite that he would like to try out. I have all the elites he says. I have all the skills. Ah right, well go check out PvX or something and find yourself a build you'd like to try out. What's a build he says? Will he get it eventually? Probably. But clearly he didn't buy an I WIN button and I am pretty sure the people he groups with will have a harder time winning too until he gets it.
But he would beat another complete tool who had not bought all the kit assuming equal skill, money buys advantage.
Actually money only buys time, and time is not an advantage because you get bumped up in WvW. And structured PvP is compelty equal.
The void it creates is entirely reward based. This is why many games include brackets for pvp, or pvp gear. Once again it comes down to casual player entitlement.
It is unfair to you because they have better gear than you even though they quadrupled your play time. [Mod Edit]
Originally posted by RefMinor But he would beat another complete tool who had not bought all the kit assuming equal skill, money buys advantage.
Considering the rarity you're ever in a 1v1 situation in GW that's an odd thing to base anything off of, but even that's not true. You can buy the skill pack, yes. You can only use skills from your primary and secondary professions. You can create builds that effectively gimp yourself, a negative synergy if you will. If two "tools" are having at it 1v1... well, no matter how much one spent, (I was going to say no one wins... but) they both ultimately win as they gain experience and skill needed to be successful in GW1.
The guy who didn't buy will be using his Balthazaar faction he's earning to learn more skills, most likely targetting ones that he feels will be useful in fixing his build. In a sense, he'll ultimately wind up winning due to not paying.
Wow, Anet must be really dumb if they have designed a cash shop that gimps its customers.
The gem system undermines the players who actually play the game and invest time in the game. As opposed to players who play the game considerbly less. I'm not saying that casual players should be restricted on what they receieve.
Your arguement with single player games is really the straw man arguement here, as it has nothing to do with MMO's. Single player games are designed with a shelf life. They have an end and you can only accomplish so much. Short play time is specifically indoctrined into the single player mentality. An MMO is designed to be a constant, ever evolving game WORLD. Emphasis on the world part; it is entirely ill logical to think that a gamer who plays one hour a day progresses at the same speed as someone who plays four hours a day.
The gem system undermines this basic design philosophy. I whole heartedly believe that whoever spends more time in a game than I do should have more things that I do. They should advance through content faster than I do, they should get acess to better gear before I do.
The casual generation believes that the raider mentality is that of someone wtih no life. As a casual player, the last raid I did required a playtime of 40 mins. With your examples, that is the same play time as one of the longer, more in depth dungeons in skyrim. Your views on raids and raider mentality is entirely wrong and unjustified.
A raider should have access to specific tiers of gear or power than a casual player who doesn't partake in those activities, you're saying that they should. Why should those who play a game considerably less receieve the same amount of power in the game?
This system creates a void, the "haves" and the "have nots". That kills games fast, esepcailly pvp games.
Many players are here to have fun, and you cannot have fun with have the population because they wipe you in 2 hits. That a huge imbalance, there is no need for it.
What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals who will most likely move on to another game in a month or two anyway.
You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.
For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it.
Precisely, money is not the problem, the principle is. I want to "earn" my progression, no matter if it is exploration-wise, title-wise, gear-wise, vanity-wise.
If something is too grindy and boring, then the developers should change the game and not just do the lazy thing of selling the "band-aid" through an item mall.
You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.
For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it.
You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.
The gem system undermines the players who actually play the game and invest time in the game. As opposed to players who play the game considerbly less. I'm not saying that casual players should be restricted on what they receieve.
Your arguement with single player games is really the straw man arguement here, as it has nothing to do with MMO's. Single player games are designed with a shelf life. They have an end and you can only accomplish so much. Short play time is specifically indoctrined into the single player mentality. An MMO is designed to be a constant, ever evolving game WORLD. Emphasis on the world part; it is entirely ill logical to think that a gamer who plays one hour a day progresses at the same speed as someone who plays four hours a day.
The gem system undermines this basic design philosophy. I whole heartedly believe that whoever spends more time in a game than I do should have more things that I do. They should advance through content faster than I do, they should get acess to better gear before I do.
The casual generation believes that the raider mentality is that of someone wtih no life. As a casual player, the last raid I did required a playtime of 40 mins. With your examples, that is the same play time as one of the longer, more in depth dungeons in skyrim. Your views on raids and raider mentality is entirely wrong and unjustified.
A raider should have access to specific tiers of gear or power than a casual player who doesn't partake in those activities, you're saying that they should. Why should those who play a game considerably less receieve the same amount of power in the game?
This system creates a void, the "haves" and the "have nots". That kills games fast, esepcailly pvp games.
Many players are here to have fun, and you cannot have fun with have the population because they wipe you in 2 hits. That a huge imbalance, there is no need for it.
What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals who will most likely move on to another game in a month or two anyway.
Actaully Ive noticed its the hardcores that move around a lot.
Besides there is nothing casual about the WvW, it only lasts 2 weeks, so you have to be in there a lot if you really want to make a difference. During that time, you earn gold and gear for your hard work.
What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.
What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?
In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.
I'm not quite following this post. It's a little too abbreviated. Are you trying to say there's not elitism in GW1? I sure as hell hope not because it is rampant in randoms, GvG, high end instance farming, and guild alliances. Hey you want in our group? What's your emote?
Hell, ANet balances classes and skills based on the feedback of a few elitist guilds. Having a few guilds so heavily influence the meta has been one of their biggest weaknesses in my opinion.
There will be elitism in GW2. It will happen for dungeon runs, high end pve and pvp, and other areas that will surface. You can't stop an inherent human trait from manifesting itself.
I'd much rather the elitism be based on player behavior than on game mechanics that foster it and then some.
What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.
What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?
In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.
Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??
Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!?
BM' ing this for future reference.
I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.
Sometimes I love your wit and insight. This is one of those times. I'm just a little bit disappointed Soylent Green wasn't in the OP list, but I'll get over it.
What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.
What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?
In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.
Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??
Probably the group that doesnt want to grind for days so they can enjoy the game, the last handfull of MMO's released have catered to the grinding crowd, with lots of pixel candy for thier efforts.
Now we get something different, sounds fair to me!
What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.
What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?
In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.
Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??
people like myself. Exploreres, group players, community wonks, ect.
Who this doesn't include- antisocials, greifers, hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay ect....ect. In shorter terms, mature human beings.
Want to know how, Anet designed the game with many safegaurd intrisic in its design to minimize this behavior, they also spent many hours figuring out how to get people to actually want to PLAY together. First thing was to kill the trinity system, kill raiding guilds, kill gear whores, and make the game more balanced for differning play styles.
You want hardcore- come to PvP. I will gladly show you harcore since all things will be eqaul.
This system creates a void, the "haves" and the "have nots". That kills games fast, esepcailly pvp games.
Many players are here to have fun, and you cannot have fun with have the population because they wipe you in 2 hits. That a huge imbalance, there is no need for it.
This is completely false. You seem to have missed the part where... gear at max level is all equivalent, where everyone in WvW has levle 80 stats at the minimum, etc. You cannot two shot someone.
What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.
What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?
In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.
Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??
people like myself. Exploreres, group players, community wonks, ect.
Who this doesn't include- antisocials, greifers, hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay ect....ect. In shorter terms, mature human beings.
Want to know how, Anet designed the game with many safegaurd intrisic in its design to minimize this behavior, they also spent many hours figuring out how to get people to actually want to PLAY together. First thing was to kill the trinity system, kill raiding guilds, kill gear whores, and make the game more balanced for differning play styles.
You want hardcore- come to PvP. I will gladly show you harcore since all things will be eqaul.
Thats the point a few people here seem to be avoiding, all things are equal in PvP.
If a player REALLY wanted something to work at, something to be proud of, they could go be the best at PvP and win the WvW for thier server. Couldnt get more proud than that!
This system creates a void, the "haves" and the "have nots". That kills games fast, esepcailly pvp games.
Many players are here to have fun, and you cannot have fun with have the population because they wipe you in 2 hits. That a huge imbalance, there is no need for it.
This is completely false. You seem to have missed the part where... gear at max level is all equivalent, where everyone in WvW has levle 80 stats at the minimum, etc. You cannot two shot someone.
Thats exactly my point, the system you guys are talking about would change that, and people would be getting 2 shotted.
The way the system is now, nobody will be getting 2 shotted, because uber gear doesnt matter, so grinding for uber gear doesnt matter.
And your wrong about the level 80 gear at minum stats, only if a level 5 goes into the WvW does he get the minimum level 80 gear.
The players who are actually level 80, will have slightly better gear, but nothing too large, as to be able and 2 shot the other player.
What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.
What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?
In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.
Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??
people like myself. Exploreres, group players, community wonks, ect.
Who this doesn't include- antisocials, greifers, hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay ect....ect. In shorter terms, mature human beings.
Want to know how, Anet designed the game with many safegaurd intrisic in its design to minimize this behavior, they also spent many hours figuring out how to get people to actually want to PLAY together. First thing was to kill the trinity system, kill raiding guilds, kill gear whores, and make the game more balanced for differning play styles.
You want hardcore- come to PvP. I will gladly show you harcore since all things will be eqaul.
I'm going to have to agree with Bunks here.
He sells his point this best.
Anyone who thinks GW2 is NOT going to be what he just described has another thing coming.
Well, except for the eSport PvP which is going to be a lot more competitive/hardcore than what most MMOs offer because it is very non-RPG oriented.
Kind of funny really, almost a completely seperate game inside a game completely different than that particular piece of it.
Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!?
BM' ing this for future reference.
I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.
Thank you ... I was scratching my head the whole read.
Games encouraging players to be arsholes to each other.....
That line of your well written post get to the heart of alot of problems as an older gamer I have had to put up with and endure for far too long.
In Wow loot ninjas are rampid and no matter what format there is for master looter on raids even though you see a raid through the loot masters always give the tokens, or best gear to a friend or guildmate and now with the gear fashion system its even worse.
I played EQ about one month after it launched and that game for its time was awesome. I'm not comparing it to graphics. or abilities (They never got the magician class right imo) but the community of eq was the best at the time.
I met many many players that would join you in a goup that was camping an item and if that item dropped no one would even dare approach the mob until the players whos turn it was to loot got their item.
Then these good people would not just bail immdeiately after but would stay for a long time and help the next player in line clear the spawns and mob to get their item.
You rarely see that often in today's gaming world.
The second best community or perhaps almost tie with the EQ community was Daoc when it first launched.
The players had the same mindset as the EQ playerbase in terms of helping in questing, item farming etc.
RARELY did I even encounter anyone back then ninja looting or screwing someone in a trade etc.
If your character name was flagged for that type of behavior good luck because you might as well reroll completely as other players made it a point to warn others about that type of activity and those players were never part of any raids or guilds I belonged too.
So my point into the op post is that while I agree with his observations and his perception of the topic part of the fault lies within the playerbase.
This imo is because the general playerbase has the same self entitlement attitude I see in this new generation of players and they are not afraid to steal in game loot, say the most disgusting and vulgar things, make nasty racial and hate remarks and then have the balls to demand the easiest leveling format, gear progression format and then act like the achieved something wonderful.
The true REWARD and what made players GREAT way back when was the kindness, respect and willing to help attitude that made that charater shine above the rest.
What does it matter if the snob, rude, elite best geared group kills a dungeon boss in 5 mintues or a lesser band of geared players takes 12 mintues but has actual fun doing it and then makes sure the right loot goes to the right people thus giving everyone a feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment.
Then your hopes and excitement of getting your chance next time if you did not get what you needed, did not drop etc, are real and you look forward to grouping, playing with these fine players.
That among all the other op's points is missing in the gaming world in this new era of self entitlements.
people like myself. Exploreres, group players, community wonks, ect.
Who this doesn't include- antisocials, greifers, hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay ect....ect. In shorter terms, mature human beings.
Want to know how, Anet designed the game with many safegaurd intrisic in its design to minimize this behavior, they also spent many hours figuring out how to get people to actually want to PLAY together. First thing was to kill the trinity system, kill raiding guilds, kill gear whores, and make the game more balanced for differning play styles.
You want hardcore- come to PvP. I will gladly show you harcore since all things will be eqaul.
I honestly think GW2 is going to sell a lot of copies initially because people don't really know what kind of game it really is.
Many of those people will leave after a while because you can't be "hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay etc"
But it is my hope that those that stay and enjoy the game for what it is will have finally found a home AWAY from all those other people.
How bad is it?
I honestly predict a good 2 million or so first month sales and less than a half a million playing after a few months.
"No raids I can't get better gear I can't... get better gear to make me not suck at PvP!" and bam, gone.
As long as I'm having fun and GW2 really isn't like the other games I've been playing since 2004, I'll be a happy camper.
That's how I, and many others, view raiding in an online game. The item rewards are generally less shiney and impressive than in a single-player game, but when you can organize twenty people to all achieve one common goal there is a very warm, fuzzy feeling that is only just one step below beating another team at your choice of sport. The game devs (hopefully) tried to kill all of you, but your group came out ahead.
I felt that way too, til I realized you're almost always achieving someone else's goal - ie: the odds that your hard work will pay off for you are low, considering the loot is not evenly distrubted. It's why I got tired of raids. It only instills a sense of bitterness when you do the same work as everyone else for no reason. That's why GW2 looks promising to me. Everyone wins. Both the people who want a challenge, and the people who want prizes. And why shouldn't everyone win every time they succeed?
Some people call this instant gratification. I call it "Not stringing your playerbase along, in combination with a subscription fee, so they'll stay addicted longer hoping for something they might never get, and line your filthy pockets in the process"
You're deluding yourself if you think GW 2 isn't going to have some form of gear treadmill. Leveling, in and of itself, is a form of gear treadmill and last I checked GW 2 has leveling.
But leveling doesn't create a division in the player-base at all, right?
You could be right about the what, but wrong about the why. Maybe a form of treadmill will take root in GW2, but since level doesn't truly matter in most cases, I don't think that's going to be the primary reason for community division, if there is one at all. Your characters scale to the same level depending on the area you're in. You can't show off how OP you are in a zone by one shotting things because the enemies will actually hit back and you and the person you would otherwise be way ahead of will have to work together or die.
So no, leveling will not create a division, no matter how you look at it.
One of my prime hopes for Guild Wars 2 was that it would have people re-evaluate things, possibly on a large scale, that it would have people looking at stuff that occurs that we take for granted as part of the system. That it would shake things up and prove that things set in stone don't need to be set in stone.
I'm familiar with the concept of a paradigm shift from a scientific viewpoint. Eventually something comes along, a new theorem that no one cares to accept, and then the evidence starts piling up in support of it and slowly you get more and more supporters. It really pisses people off, and everyone hates the change, but at the end of the day everyone still has a better understanding of the inner-workings of the Universe than they did prior.
And I really think that we need to do some deconstructionalist analysm of MMORPGs in general, there are many things that we accept as set in stone that clearly... well, aren't. The accepted paradigm of the MMORPG has a linear flow to it, and one that many developers have been afraid to break. It's something that's been so ingrained via both classic conditioning (pavlovian responses) and oeprant (consequential) conditioning that people believe it has to go that way.
What those who play a singleplayer or co-op game expect is vastly different to what those who play an MMORPG accept. And I think that the MMORPG has fallen into an unhealthy, stagnant rut. So what do we accept?
You pay a subscription.
You can't buy anything of worth in the game with real money.
You have to make time investments (called 'work' by some) in order to acquire resource units.
These time investements are massive and favour those without real life responsibilities or connections.
Excessive time investments cause MMORPG players to consider the genre 'hardcore' because of that.
Those who invest time ('work') control the economic flow.
Those with the best gear get into the best raids.
Those who make large time investments are entitled to exclusive content that no one else is.
Further content should take greater time investments and not be completed quickly.
In order to substantiate these time investments, a 'carrot' is needed.
this 'carrot' is exclusive gear, which is then used for further exclusive content.
That's when the raiding treadmill occurs.
This is a fascinating concept. Not only because I can't really understand the appeal, but because of the divide it creates. First of all, I want to cover not understanding the appeal. The lack of appeal in my case is that I can't understand why you'd want to waste your life for a constant chain of 'carrots.' There was one Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw video that summed this up eloquently.
It went something like this:
"So why are you raiding?"
"To get better gear."
"Which gives you?"
"Bigger numbers."
"Why do you need those?"
"The boss has bigger numbers."
"What do you get from the boss?"
"Better gear!"
"And what do you do with that?"
"Kill the next boss, duh!"
Imagine that.
The problem is is that not everyone is able to make these ridiculous time investments. You have people with children, a family, a job, social obligations, and so on. The sort of people who're considered 'casuals.' Now, the usual MMORPG talks about these people in derogatory ways, often considering them not 'leet' or not 'hardcore' enough. Because having a job and a child isn't 'hardcore.' So they sneer at such people and demand that the game be made more for them, creating more time investments.
But where did this begin?
It all started off with subscriptions. In order to justify a subscription, you have to pad out content. This means that instead of a ten minute mission in Mass Effect 3, you're doing a five hour questing slog. Really, it shouldn't be that long, but it is. So you get to the quest vendor and they offer you these 'carrots,' these rewards. The idea here is that more weak-willed people get hooked on the idea of somehow, somehow being better than other people. In some small way... better.
It takes advantage of them.
So via conditioning and peer pressure, the average MMORPG gamer then continues to spend their life playing the game, without even realising the harm it might be doing to them. What they get out of this is the feeling of controlling the economy, of being able to separate themselves into haves and have-nots, in order to sneer down at those who don't have the same level of access to the game that they do. That's what it's all about. That shiny mount, that exclusive raid, that high-end armour? It's all to be better than someone else. One-upmanship, plain and simple. It's not a difficult concept.
However, things are changing now. And that has those people terrified, because they can't handle change. What this means is that there's no grind, there's no gruelling slog. This in turn means that there's no carrot. That means that they have no way to be better than other people. This is something I've discussed before - Guild Wars 2 enforces player equality. It's an egalitarian game. Everyone gets the same chance at the game, through different methods of content.
At the power plateau, it won't matter if you've put eight hours into the game or eight thousand, you're all equal.
This is a terrifying concept to those who've ruled with time investments. Because for the longest time MMORPGs have been whispering delicately into their ears that their way is the only way. Subscribe to our game, we'll let you be better than other people. But the market is changing. More and more developers are realising that these people who want time investments to rule the economy are a vast minority (vocal, but still a vast minority).
There are casual players out there just waiting for the MMORPGs that are designed for them to play. And those are on the way. One of the first is Guild Wars 2.
And like I said, it's working.
What Guild Wars 2 is doing is shaking things up, it's altering perceptions. It's saying that what was set in stone was an illusion, and that things can be completely different. Those who helped set those rules in stone are going to rail against that. Of course they are. No more exclusive content for them. Yes, that's going to suck for them. Because the reason they play an MMORPG, even in PvE, is just to be better than someone.
But there are games out there for them. Games which encourage competitive PvE, games which encourage people being arseholes to each other, and games which encourage player inequality. And they'll always have those games. But they're worried that one day... they're going to run out of games and they'll have to play our games, the games of casual players. And yeah, that scares them.
I mean, look at WoW.
WoW, from the ground up, conditions you to want to be better than someone. It puts in various ways to force you to compete. You can easily accidentally flag yourself as PvP, resource nodes are instanced globally rather than per player, which makes people fight over them, and the whole thing is one massive sociopathic circlejerk. It's just people being horribly indecent to each other. But again, the old MMORPG player, the time investor, they're comfortable with that.
In Guild Wars 2 they'll actually have to socialise with people, they'll have to be nice, they won't be in complete control, they'll be equal. This turns everything they know on its head. And that's why we've had so many threads about this. It's old MMORPG players damn near having a brain aneurysm at all of the rules they thought they knew being turned upon their heads.
No longer lords and ladies. Just peons. Like the rest of us.
They have to come back down to the real world.
But what we're getting instead now is that they're seeing the other side of the equation. Just because there's equality, they're blowing it out of proportion and saying that money ivnestors will be on top. That's obviously not the case, but that's the fear that they have, because they're having these crazy slippery slope theories. You know? Oh no, we've lost our regal status, soon our slaves will be our masters, and we'll be the slaves!
That's not going to happen, but they're seeing things from the side of the have-nots and the results?
The results are frankly hilarious.
If I were a vindictive person, I'd pester ArenaNet to actually include an $80 monocle in the game, just so that I could buy it, wear it, and flaunt it at the time investors. But I'm not a vindictive person. Like I've said before, my approach to the game will be to find the most sensible, utilitarian armour I can and stick with that. I don't really give a shit about being the prettiest pony on the block.
But if you understand the paradigm shift, here, if you understand how the patterns are changing, then you understand why every one of these new threads exists. It's forcing people to question all that was supposedly set in stone about GW2. And like I said, that says to me... GW2 works. I am pleased.
You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.
For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it.
You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.
There's a difference between a challenge and doing something stupid.
Becoming the No. 1 tennis player in the world = challenge
Trying to become the No. 1 tennis player in the world by playing without a racket and shoes = stupid
Comments
Actually money only buys time, and time is not an advantage because you get bumped up in WvW. And structured PvP is compelty equal.
The void it creates is entirely reward based. This is why many games include brackets for pvp, or pvp gear. Once again it comes down to casual player entitlement.
It is unfair to you because they have better gear than you even though they quadrupled your play time. [Mod Edit]
Considering the rarity you're ever in a 1v1 situation in GW that's an odd thing to base anything off of, but even that's not true. You can buy the skill pack, yes. You can only use skills from your primary and secondary professions. You can create builds that effectively gimp yourself, a negative synergy if you will. If two "tools" are having at it 1v1... well, no matter how much one spent, (I was going to say no one wins... but) they both ultimately win as they gain experience and skill needed to be successful in GW1.
The guy who didn't buy will be using his Balthazaar faction he's earning to learn more skills, most likely targetting ones that he feels will be useful in fixing his build. In a sense, he'll ultimately wind up winning due to not paying.
Wow, Anet must be really dumb if they have designed a cash shop that gimps its customers.What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals who will most likely move on to another game in a month or two anyway.
Precisely, money is not the problem, the principle is. I want to "earn" my progression, no matter if it is exploration-wise, title-wise, gear-wise, vanity-wise.
If something is too grindy and boring, then the developers should change the game and not just do the lazy thing of selling the "band-aid" through an item mall.
You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.
Actaully Ive noticed its the hardcores that move around a lot.
Besides there is nothing casual about the WvW, it only lasts 2 weeks, so you have to be in there a lot if you really want to make a difference. During that time, you earn gold and gear for your hard work.
What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?
In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.
Good reading in this thread. A lot of nice points.
A tipped hat to the OP.
I'd much rather the elitism be based on player behavior than on game mechanics that foster it and then some.
Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??
Probably the group that doesnt want to grind for days so they can enjoy the game, the last handfull of MMO's released have catered to the grinding crowd, with lots of pixel candy for thier efforts.
Now we get something different, sounds fair to me!
people like myself. Exploreres, group players, community wonks, ect.
Who this doesn't include- antisocials, greifers, hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay ect....ect. In shorter terms, mature human beings.
Want to know how, Anet designed the game with many safegaurd intrisic in its design to minimize this behavior, they also spent many hours figuring out how to get people to actually want to PLAY together. First thing was to kill the trinity system, kill raiding guilds, kill gear whores, and make the game more balanced for differning play styles.
You want hardcore- come to PvP. I will gladly show you harcore since all things will be eqaul.
This is completely false. You seem to have missed the part where... gear at max level is all equivalent, where everyone in WvW has levle 80 stats at the minimum, etc. You cannot two shot someone.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I mostly agree with the OP, except there is a danger of these "casual" games to turn out like SW:ToR. By that I mean too easy.
Here's to hoping GW2 is able to bridge the gap.
Thats the point a few people here seem to be avoiding, all things are equal in PvP.
If a player REALLY wanted something to work at, something to be proud of, they could go be the best at PvP and win the WvW for thier server. Couldnt get more proud than that!
Thats exactly my point, the system you guys are talking about would change that, and people would be getting 2 shotted.
The way the system is now, nobody will be getting 2 shotted, because uber gear doesnt matter, so grinding for uber gear doesnt matter.
And your wrong about the level 80 gear at minum stats, only if a level 5 goes into the WvW does he get the minimum level 80 gear.
The players who are actually level 80, will have slightly better gear, but nothing too large, as to be able and 2 shot the other player.
I'm going to have to agree with Bunks here.
He sells his point this best.
Anyone who thinks GW2 is NOT going to be what he just described has another thing coming.
Well, except for the eSport PvP which is going to be a lot more competitive/hardcore than what most MMOs offer because it is very non-RPG oriented.
Kind of funny really, almost a completely seperate game inside a game completely different than that particular piece of it.
Thank you ... I was scratching my head the whole read.
Games encouraging players to be arsholes to each other.....
That line of your well written post get to the heart of alot of problems as an older gamer I have had to put up with and endure for far too long.
In Wow loot ninjas are rampid and no matter what format there is for master looter on raids even though you see a raid through the loot masters always give the tokens, or best gear to a friend or guildmate and now with the gear fashion system its even worse.
I played EQ about one month after it launched and that game for its time was awesome. I'm not comparing it to graphics. or abilities (They never got the magician class right imo) but the community of eq was the best at the time.
I met many many players that would join you in a goup that was camping an item and if that item dropped no one would even dare approach the mob until the players whos turn it was to loot got their item.
Then these good people would not just bail immdeiately after but would stay for a long time and help the next player in line clear the spawns and mob to get their item.
You rarely see that often in today's gaming world.
The second best community or perhaps almost tie with the EQ community was Daoc when it first launched.
The players had the same mindset as the EQ playerbase in terms of helping in questing, item farming etc.
RARELY did I even encounter anyone back then ninja looting or screwing someone in a trade etc.
If your character name was flagged for that type of behavior good luck because you might as well reroll completely as other players made it a point to warn others about that type of activity and those players were never part of any raids or guilds I belonged too.
So my point into the op post is that while I agree with his observations and his perception of the topic part of the fault lies within the playerbase.
This imo is because the general playerbase has the same self entitlement attitude I see in this new generation of players and they are not afraid to steal in game loot, say the most disgusting and vulgar things, make nasty racial and hate remarks and then have the balls to demand the easiest leveling format, gear progression format and then act like the achieved something wonderful.
The true REWARD and what made players GREAT way back when was the kindness, respect and willing to help attitude that made that charater shine above the rest.
What does it matter if the snob, rude, elite best geared group kills a dungeon boss in 5 mintues or a lesser band of geared players takes 12 mintues but has actual fun doing it and then makes sure the right loot goes to the right people thus giving everyone a feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment.
Then your hopes and excitement of getting your chance next time if you did not get what you needed, did not drop etc, are real and you look forward to grouping, playing with these fine players.
That among all the other op's points is missing in the gaming world in this new era of self entitlements.
I honestly think GW2 is going to sell a lot of copies initially because people don't really know what kind of game it really is.
Many of those people will leave after a while because you can't be "hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay etc"
But it is my hope that those that stay and enjoy the game for what it is will have finally found a home AWAY from all those other people.
How bad is it?
I honestly predict a good 2 million or so first month sales and less than a half a million playing after a few months.
"No raids I can't get better gear I can't... get better gear to make me not suck at PvP!" and bam, gone.
As long as I'm having fun and GW2 really isn't like the other games I've been playing since 2004, I'll be a happy camper.
AWESOME READ!! You win the internets today!
There's a difference between a challenge and doing something stupid.
Becoming the No. 1 tennis player in the world = challenge
Trying to become the No. 1 tennis player in the world by playing without a racket and shoes = stupid