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My thoughts on gear and endgame. Is the carrot needed?
Dematoura
Member Posts: 12
I'm really pleased that there is no carrot, so to speak. It makes me very, very happy that gear doesn't tier. This in turn may give GW2 a stronger endgame.
I'm going to use WoW as an example for this, WoW has a ton of endgame content and raids, however most of it is obsolete and new players can't experience it aside from soling at 85 and even then what's the point? The content is not being enjoyed as intended, the items and gear you get are useless. The only real reason to go is the sake of going. I would do that a lot in WoW. I didn't solo Kara because it was worth while, but because I enjoyed the content. However, most people don't see it like that. Why run Kara when I could do an action that betters my character in same shape or form?
Since GW2 doesn't have the gear treadmill dungeons will never become obsolete, people will be more inclined to go to places because it will always be engaging and rewarding.
I also firmly believe this will add a lot of variety in how we all look, people will use the armour(canada) they want to and not feel inclined to switch over to something else because it's better in every way.
I also feel that endgame should always remain endgame. I am against raising the level-cap, I think there are better ways to get us to run new area's than to grind levels.
If what I'm saying holds true and after GW2 has time to mature on the front of pve endgame then the overall experience would be much stronger than what we see in conventional MMO's(not including GW1).
Forgetting heroics, would people still be doing all raids in WoW is there was a reward? Let us experience ALL the content we paid for, not the content that is currently new and relevant.
Comments
Why does everyone think this game doesnt have carrots? IT DOES. they just dont provide better stats than other carrots at max level. THATS IT!
Carrots in GW2 include Hard Mode dungeon cosmetics and rare titles and achievements. Same as any MMO really minus the fact there are no raids and thus no carrots derived from raiding.
Why is this so hard to understand? Has the anti-WoW/Raid circlejerk really blinded this many people to the obvious? Good lord.
Well, goal oriented people will need some way to advance their characters.
Besides, downplaying the importance of gear didnt work at all for AoC, which forced Funcom to revamp the whole system. (Funcom may have a lot of faults as developers but they are among the few innovators in the industry. Even Anet is just evolving ideas from other games)
I don't view those as carrots. You don't have to chase those to enjoy the game, it's an option albiet, but not necessary. In most MMORPG's the carrot is the holy grail of fun. You aren't enjoying yourself unless your blindly following it.
I have a hard time calling those carrots when you can go anywhere and do anything and still be rewarded. I would attune the purpose of this game closer to LoL. There is no Carrot, you play to have fun. Getting better is the result of said fun.
With a heavy emphasis on player skill, that might be motivation enough. I find when I'm playing skill based games I tend to play because I want to play the game better.
I've played tons of MMO's and they all amount to wanting my magic missle to do more damage through gear grind.
If pve can capture just a pinch of that e-sport element of player skill, I'm sure it will do fine.
Optional carrots in different colors
. Huge difference like Boiling and Freezing, got it?
Kinda like different colored kool-aid?
The point of this thread isn't to argue semantics about carrots, it's more about endgame freedom. Players can enjoy the content they want whenever they want, not within a given time frame of when the devs want you to play the content. Any achievement you acomplish in GW2 will never become obsolete or redundant because it's old.
The only reason a dungeon will become empty is because it wasn't designed well or isn't fun. There aren't numbers tied to the content to decide if it's worth your time or not.
In GW1 there were reputation rank based titles added to the game that provided minor or situational passive buffs while they were displayed. An example was a dwarven reputation title that increased the damage done to destroyers while it was displayed. The higher your dwarven rep rank, the more damage you did to destroyers. There were also ones that provided passive buffs depending on which region you were currently in.
I wouldn't be surprised if lots and lots of these were added to GW2, a mistake if not imo. Gaining the maximum rank in some of these titles took a considerable amount of time. Damn good carrot if you ask me, especially when there were multiple ways of earning the reputation.
oh if only there wasnt an NDA in place... THEN we could talk about Funcom.
I actually see the exact opposite happening. Noone is accountable about playing bad. You show up in a DE and your just faceroll your people being bad and noone notices or cares. Same with world PvP, you can be as bad as you want and there is no way to tell. I don't see any kind of accountability whatsoever about being bad (with the possible exception of hardmode dungeons).
So, where you see skill, I see total absence of. Why bother to be any good when you can be as bad as you want and noone will be able to tell, or care?
Regarding Funcom, yes, their games have numerous flaws. But they are among the very few developers that risk trying new stuff. Pretty much no western developer risks deviating from the mold and very few eastern. People should be really thankful that Anet is owned by NCsoft (and not Activision or SOE or EA, for example).
I think its more that Anet had the ba**s to stand up for their game to NCsoft as NCsoft is one of the WORST companies out there for customer service and making games fair and fun. I enjoyed AoC for a bit, I disagree about some of your points on it but not enough to call them out, but TSW isn't new... its like SWTOR/WoW on Earth with a MUCH worse questing/combat system and the same 8 year old graphics.
as for bad players.. Anet has stated many times people who dont figure out the combat system and dodging will not do well. They even stated a group would not be able to carry someone in the explorable dungeons. In mass PVP.. well in ANY mass PVP you can hide bad players. Its one reason I actually like it.. I SUCK at small scale PVP.. I get too nervous and clam up making fatal errors.
Not every motivation for play is a "carrot". By your broad use of the term, "fun" would even be a carrot. The carrot metaphor mostly applies to the concept of a goal that can never be obtained, which just keeps people on a never ending treadmill that goes no where. The unobtainable carrot is "the ultimate pinacle of character power", raid gear is just the finish line that always gets moved further down the road when ever you reach it.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
The carrot is put in for the mindless masses that are unable to figure out what to do themselves, which is bascally what the casual gamers are, mindless cattle, the mindless cattle theory is also proven by how most mmo's these days completly lead you along a set track, Only people who complain are the ones with enough of a brain to relize this. The problem is raiding really has no purpose, once your at max cap, raiding for gear is not progression at all, people will try to say it is, but its not, yoru still the same set level. The other issues is there is nothing to do with the raid gear really. Thats why dark age of camelot did so well, you raided for gear, then you could keep raiding or go to pvp with it. The other problem is, most mmo's now a days only cater to one crowd. I think mmo's should be lake daoc, in your own factions lands your protected, and you can go out in the frontier to pvp if you wish, or you can stay and raid pve content. DAOC was also genius since everyone pretty much had the same gear, and how the batt;e system was, it was really skill based, insted of games like wow, swtor, rift where its pretty much better gear=you win, or in wow's case, whoever can circle straife and face plant buttons faster=win. I just can't figure out why every other mmo has gotten it wrong since daoc.
Insted devs kinda cop out and just focus on pve, most of the wow subscribers probally 80-90% of them don't activly play the game, they keep their acct open to raid maybe once or twice a week, I don't know how blizzard brainwashed so many people into this same pattern but I must say they should get an award for it because it works far to well.
Overall what I am trying to say is: the carrot is not needed, but its one fairly effective way to keep the cattle (aka casual gamers) in a mmo and subscribing/playng. Its like they become addicted to it or something. My friend was subject to it, he kept his acct open to raid once a week, until his guild kinda broke apart.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Funcom was forced to revamp because they didnt have a system to support the un-importance of gear. In other words, they screwed up big time, adding epic gear was a possible solution, but it also failed.
GW2 is not the same animal, not by far. Thier whole system supports the players, not the gear they wear.
Listen to yourself. Raiders tend to be the most "hardcore" players in any standard theme park, and it isn't the casual player at all who is chasing the ultimate carrot in anyway.
You brought up DAOC, and don't kid yourself, character progression (aka the carrot) was always at its core. No, gear didn't drop, but when you ran Darkness falls seals did, and seals could be changed into cash, which in turn let you pay a crafter for very expensive 100% quality gear which you used to make yourself more powerful.
In PVP there was realm ranks, and it was an upward spiralling curve that only the most hardcore players (aka a handful) ever reached the top (10/10 back then, it's higher now)
Fact is, almost every MMORPG out there today has the ultimate carrort, advancing the "power" of your character, (even in EVE, you fly more, bigger ships, with better skills) and GW2, just like its predecessor GW1 removes this by making it quite easy for everyone to reach the same, top level of power.
Now this goal seems to be desired by many, but to me it clearly marks out why GW2 is not a proper MMORPG just like its predecessor wasn't, and is in fact almost an entirely new construct more akin to a FPS shooter.
I realize that many people played GW1 for years and years, but I wasn't one of them, it just didn't contain the kind of content at end game I am looking for. (neither does a standard gear grinder, I'm all about territory control such as found in Lineage 1/2, DAOC, EVE, Shadowbane etc.)
So sure, I'll play GW2 for a bit, probably last about 3 months as I did in the first one, and then move on.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I hope you are right of course. I just wanted to point out that what happened with Funcom and AoC is a history lesson learned. What will happen with GW2 remains to be seen. Hopefully, it'll go as well it is designed. Although, when talking about design, it begs the question who is this game designed for. Is it everyone? I know another game that is designed for everyone. Is it for casuals? Midway? Mostly casuals but with hardcore features? Hardcore with casuals helped by the cash shop?
So many quesions for a game that their developers (unfortunately imho) promised it'll solve everything that is wrong with mmorpgs. Will it deliver? If you believe the manifesto, sure. I hope it does, because if it doesn't the damage to the genre will be tremendous. Worse that what happened when Mythic delivered Warhammer, worse than the disappointment that is the mmoprg child of Bioware.
It doesn't have traditional carrots, things you need to rush to only to find that there's another layer you need to rush to... basically the gear treadmill. You're never compelled in GW2, as you are in WoW for example, to run the last raid to get the gear you'll need for the next raid which will gear you for the following raid ad nauseum. Instead, the "carrot" in GW2 has been changed from that of a necessity to that of a personal desire. I want the armor form this particular dungeon because I like how it looks. Stats are irrelevant, if I wear this armor I can still do everything in the game. None of the game is cut off from me as they are in traditional carrot games... for example Cataclysm pretty well rendered Lich King content obsolete. Does anyone still bother with those raids anymore? How busy is Ulduar lately? WoWesque carrots are needed to keep pulling people forwards, keep them from noticing the wall being erected behind them as they move through the game.
So, basically the OP is right... carrots as you knew them are gone. You're not being led down a particular path anymore, forced along a single trail as you shut off the content behind you. GW2 carrots are simply no more than the ability to choose your endgame from anything in the game... nothing is shut off behind you.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I don't see why a game has to exclude on or the other. The way I see it I see the Tournament PvP and the Explorable Dungeons being designed for the Hardcore players. Those seeking the ultimate challenge within the game and won't mind putting the effort (not just time) to achieve it. Then there's the Hot Join PvP, World vs World, Dynamic Events and Story Dungeons; designed for those who want to casually jump in and play, with no time constraints.
BilboDoggins rages over not understanding 'optional carrots for those that need them,' news at eleven.
Some people.
Sigh.
Anyway, the thing of it is is that ArenaNet will throw in optional carrots, just like they'll throw in optional grind. People are easily brainwashed, this is a thing. I'm familiar with NLP and psychology and it always amazes me just how easily people are brainwashed. This is how marketing is so successful.
Now imagine ten years of WoW and people being constantly brainwashed by classical conditioning. The mind accepts that it is playing the game for the holy grail of 'the reward,' the player then continues to grind for the next reward, and the next, and the next. Soon enough they come to accept this as normal.
The problem then is that you have to break that brainwashing.
Easier said than done.
Whilst people are incredibly easy to condition, more so than you may ever realise, it's harder to snap them out of it than it is to actually condition them in the first place. If you have the framework of the conditioning laid down, followed by years and years of programming with classical conditioning backed up by operant conditioning to reinforce this, it's hard to get someone to look at something differently, because it becomes 'all they know.'
Of course, the rewards of these dungeons can be bought and obtained in other ways, thus they become optional carrots. But ArenaNet has thrown them in there for those who can't break their conditioning.
It's an act of mercy more than anything else.
This act of mercy was present in Nightfall. There were titles and some cosmetic items that most people simply didn't give a shit about. (I know I didn't.) But you had these odd types who'd grind ectos and shit for every day of their lives, just so that they could claim these items. These items that were included as an afterthought by ArenaNet.
And that's the way of it.
The 'carrot' is an optional thing and an afterthought in Guild Wars 2. There for those who need it.
The rest of us can just ignore it and get on with our lives.
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The point of this is that there are no carrots in GW2 for those who don't want them. In fact, for the vast majority of players they won't even realise they exist, since the vast majority won't be spending their time grinding explorable dungeons, they'll just be moving on and doing other content.
The game doesn't revolve around carrots, they're just an afterthought. You can equally as easily buy something nice with gems if you want, there's no need to buy into this 'carrot' thing. It's only there for those that want it. You can go from one piece of content to teh next, only doing story mode dungeons, dynamic events, personal storyline content, PvP, and even crafting armour and never bothering with 'carrots.'
The fact of the matter is is that the argument is whether carrots will be necessary to the game, or to most people. The answers are 'no' and 'no,' respectively. The only carrots there are ones that you choose to inflict upon yourself.
lol +1
Yup, added an extra bit there.
I mean, carrots just aren't needed. And most dislike it. With most people, if they feel that a game isn't fun, they won't keep going for a 'carrot' because they have better things to do with their time, and their time is limited. No, they'll just stop playing the game. And that means less money for ArenaNet.
The carrots are just an optional element for those who desparately need carrots. ArenaNet are just humouring them.
I'm not sure whether that's merciful and nice of ArenaNet, or kind of cruel for not making them face their problems head on.
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The reason the whole carrot thing bothers me is because it's unhealthy. That's why on some level I wish ArenaNet had left it out of the game all together. I mean, 'working' in a game for rewards in a game? That's just ridiculous. Plus, it's not good for you to spend that much time in a game rather than doing other things. My time gaming is more limited, and sometimes I'm thankful for that.
Solid Sharkey wrote a good bit up on this a while back, about optional carrots in games, which I didn't realise existed up until then. I mean, in Vice City I didn't know that they'd tossed in the whole 'grind and carrot' thing optionally for those who needed it. But apparently they did. I didn't notice because I never took the boring missions, I just skipped over them.
But Sharkey tried a few and he stopped doing it within ten minutes.
His words: "Why would I spend my time delivering pizzas in a game, when I could do that in real life and get paid for it?"
So yeah.
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People addicted to 'working' in a game just... makes my skin crawl.
I actually feel kind of bad for them.
I don't know whether I've mentioned this, here, but one of my old room-mates fell prey to this. He let his job fall by the wayside and his appearance go to shit. Why? He "couldn't let his guild down." He was grinding pots, why? He was grinding them to run raids. Why? Because then his guild would win that carrot. But the only problem was that he couldn't stop himself from playing.
This is a problem I've seen commonly with 'work and carrot' players.
They just can't stop themselves, because it is conditioning, and they get addicted to unhealthy degrees. I don't like that. It's not good to spend all of your time in front of a computer or a console playing a game. There are other things in life. It can leave you intellectually and socially retarded. It can really hurt you.
To be honest, I think he would have been fucked if he hadn't had me around to force him out of it.
And that's why I dislike it so.
Not healthy.
How the pavlovs dog generation of gamers that grew up on wow will cope without their gear fix though, I'm not so sure
As I have said in another thread on the same subject. For me the carrot is completion of content. I enjoy experiencing the games content.
My theme song.
Anyway, there is always a hypotetical implementation of items that can desroy and be against "their philosophy". Noone should say that there in 0% of that happening, untill its released. And only the previous deeds show/point if the company is trustworthy.
People should, no people must be cautious and not blindly open their doors. To many bad people out in the world.
But people, also must think, be patient and have leap of faith or they will look just stupid.
The problem here is if you also force yourself to see all the 'throwaway' content, which I don't think is necessary. You shouldn't have a compulsion to see that.
I'm just glad such things aren't forced on everyone in GW2 though. The only time a singleplayer game tried that was Dragon Age: Origins and it was with the dwarf tunnels. Ffffffff dwarf tunnels. Everyone hated those.
And that's what I mean, the dwarf tunnels were just throwaway content, designed to expand the length of the game.
I just hope you won't go too nuts with that, because... just not good for you, really.