THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMEONE WHO LEVELS FASTER OR CLEARS CONTENT FASTER THAN YOU REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE USING A BOOST OR NOT.
There is no Rat Race here folks, you can get the same weapons as everyone else can, some might get them before you do... that doesnt make it unfair, thats just the way of the world, online and offline.
Also, the gold arguement is so thin... Who cares whether someone can buy more blueprints in WvW than some other guy... they still need build it. And guess what, that blueprint someone just bought and built - I looted it off a player I just killed, and saved myself X amount of gold.
It is actually disheartening how many people are unable to think logically (or objectively) about this subject.
I agree its dumb,
Pay to win or not depends on the player and is subjective. Unless the player is competing in some way nothing is pay to win. It makes no difference how many or how offensive advantages they sell in the cash shop. Some will always feel it makes no difference and that they dont need to buy it. That they can accept any and all limitations and have fun anyway.
On the other hand different players can compete in several different ways. They have different playstyles. Player B:s competion could be pointless and boring for player A. Your competion could be to become the best crafter on the server, have more gold than anyone, be first to max level, be the best PvP player, kill the most difficult PvE mobs or almost anything that someone for some reason wants to focus on. It could be common or uncommon...
So its impossible to agree if some item they sell in a CS is P2W or not. There will probably always be some that think it is and others that think its not. And this is also true for the CS in any game.
There will always be some that think any possible advantage is wrong and bad. And it makes no difference if they personally think its p2W or not. Because they dont like the CS business model in general.
So its impossible to agree if some item they sell in a CS is P2W or not. There will probably always be some that think it is and others that think its not. And this is also true for the CS in any game.
Perhaps. But it's possible for players to agree that the major forces in the MMO game are driving in the direction that most fear, rather than away from it; and they have been chipping away at their own integrity for quite some time.
It's another small and meaningless step. Another company, or another time, we'll take the next.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
And in regards to the question a previous poster asked: Why are they selling xp boost items if the leveling curve is entirely horrizontal and people that are higher than you in progress and level are at no advantage? If its true then the xp items in the CS have no purpose and therefore no one will buy them...
Because those arguing for cheating are dishonest people. Seriously, what did you expect? They are cheaters for god sake.
I have seen cheaters arguing for why they should be allowed to cheat and how it doesn't negatively effect anyone else. Except that at the end of the day, they know and we know that everything in human society is about relative measures, and they cheat to get that relative advantage.
In regards to your question, they use the "max level" argument to hide the true facts that the xp boost is just for the small part that is leveling. After you reach max level there are the gold and other boosts to give you further time savings up until the day you quit playing. Of course, cheater proponents of the specific game in question love to argue that their game is "horizontal progression" so gold/time doesn't matter. Which is a plain false statement. Seriously, GW1 which is a horizontal progression game has some of the most potent gold/time sinks I have ever seen.
Originally posted by Serelisk Agreed, but I'm still a little confused what the OP means by "material sources of power". Coin, BoE, actual crafting material, experience?
All of those can be translated into one word...Time. And that was what the original post was all about. The lie that is being propagated is that time doesn't matter, when in fact time is everything, or more explicitly, time is winning.
But really, I prefer to just avoid the whole "what constitutes winning" argument all together as it just gives opportunity for those who want the manipulate the word "win". Instead, just call it pay2cheat and watch the cheaters try to explain how it isn't cheating. They'll pretty quickly bring up the argument that it is implemented by the devlopers, so it isn't cheating. And at that time you can simply give the killing blow by calmly pointing out that developers has added cheats into single player games since the beginning of time.
The change in terminology is to ease the players who are not already on the RMT money train into the system. Cash shops that sell advantages and power are the way of the future, and I couldn't be happier. I don't have a whole lot of time to play between my numerous obligations, but I do have a lot of money, and why should your time be worth more than my money to developers?
What's going to keep the servers up and running and the developers well fed? Your time or my money?
You've already lost. Money speaks louder than... well, the speech of those who don't spend money. The sooner the rest of the market allows players to purchase advantages and power for their money the better off we'll all be. Choice is good.
Players should not have an advantage over other players simply because they have put more time into their characters. We are in the new age of capitalism in gaming!
They mostly certainly do gain by not keeping people that don't pay for items around. A dead server with paying customers is better than a full server with few paying customers. Why do you think the P2W payment model is so attractive? It doesn't matter how full the server is as long as the paying customers stay happy. That isn't difficult as long as developers give them advantages over others.
That's not how the business model works.
In a F2P MMO, the free players are often as important as the paying ones. The model is managed very differently from a subscription game. While there may very well be back of the queue prioritizing sometimes, the free player is understood to be a very valuable user of the service.
Look at the home page for any F2P game and you will see there are constant events, festivals and special weekends. When you hop in game, you will often see there are GMs and staffers that are hanging out in channel, chatting with the players. The towns or NPCs are usually redecorated for holidays and events. This content is just as much for the free player as the paying player. The reason being is that the free players are, to a certain degree, content for paying players.
Players being content for other players is absolutely true of subscription MMOs, as well. Veteran players will leave a server that feels ‘dead’. When new players log into a ‘dead’ server, they aren’t too likely to stick around. The vanity players need people to show their stuff off to, the entertainers need people to entertain, the raiders and grinders need people to group with, and the socializers need people to chat with.
In the F2P model, you already know that you’re only getting cash from a small percentage, so it’s not like you are putting much effort into getting cash from the rest – they had no intention of spending anything to begin with, so you focus your item mall primarily on those who will. You concentrate your efforts in two areas
providing engaging content to bring in as many free players as you can
providing desirable items in the mall for the players looking to invest extra in their hobby/entertainment
The vanity case isn’t going to buy new bling if there’s no one to show it off to.
The raider/grinder isn’t going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn’t have players to group with or compete against. The socialiser isn’t going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he’s logging in and just playing alone.
Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player. By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.
I read up to here. And then stopped. That is your wrong assumption and everything else is just smoke and mirrors.
Not every MMORPG is by design without a progression cap. I would even go as far as to say every MMO with no progression cap is flawed from a design point, especially with pvp in it. (especially with vertical progression)
But i know, the WoW generation dont know any better, and are to narrow minded to see anything else. Not every game is a grind by definition, not every game is designed to be a endless grind, not every game needs a carrot on a stick. Just the worst of games need it. imho
Peace and love brother, peace and love. Doesn't sound like Guild wars 2 is your game. You should play something where the illusion of power is more transparent.
I like the OP, he's so cock sure he knows something when in fact he knows damn near nothing, simply put: F2P = best build with time-skipping/xp augmenting premium items, anything else feels like a money grab and rightfully so while also placing stress on the devs to keep the premium items flowing while P2P gives you everything for a flat rate per month, there's also Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 who are B2P but those are hybrid beasts and by the looks of things could be the best of both worlds with the right devs.
What I mean is that MMO's these days are all about solo play , so if someone is able to solo a certain dungeon then that person will hog most of the players to play with.
You realise that GW2 scales players to content right? And that explorable dungeons are rock hard mode? Nobody is going to be soloing dungeons in GW2. These dungeons are designed to be difficult for a full group. If it happens to be a level 35 dungeon and the players are all level 80, they're scaled down to 35 to keep the difficulty level applicable.
No he probably doesn't realize that, but he also probably won't come back to the thread to tell you that. The number of people with misinformation about the game that bitch and moan in these threads is astounding. It's like they've never done any research on the game themselves at all, but somehow think they're qualified to dissect (spelling?) it. So they proceed to dice it from limb to limb when then don't even know basic things about it. Amazing.
Originally posted by Kreedz
These arguements are so dumb...
THERE WILL ALWAYS BE SOMEONE WHO LEVELS FASTER OR CLEARS CONTENT FASTER THAN YOU REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY ARE USING A BOOST OR NOT.
There is no Rat Race here folks, you can get the same weapons as everyone else can, some might get them before you do... that doesnt make it unfair, thats just the way of the world, online and offline.
Also, the gold arguement is so thin... Who cares whether someone can buy more blueprints in WvW than some other guy... they still need build it. And guess what, that blueprint someone just bought and built - I looted it off a player I just killed, and saved myself X amount of gold.
It is actually disheartening how many people are unable to think logically (or objectively) about this subject.
I sooooo agree with you. These are people we've likely played games with, side by side. That would explain a lot of my past disgust in game communities, actually. Common sense and logic are definitely not common.
MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player. By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.
I read up to here. And then stopped. That is your wrong assumption and everything else is just smoke and mirrors.
Not every MMORPG is by design without a progression cap. I would even go as far as to say every MMO with no progression cap is flawed from a design point, especially with pvp in it. (especially with vertical progression)
But i know, the WoW generation dont know any better, and are to narrow minded to see anything else. Not every game is a grind by definition, not every game is designed to be a endless grind, not every game needs a carrot on a stick. Just the worst of games need it. imho
Regardless of the original point, your concern with individual progression difference between players in pvp that is largely insignificant in games outside the wow-bg-arena type gameplay due to more focus on group objectives and lack of player number restrictions while talking down to someone about "wow generation" is hilarious.
While i do think that any form of cash shop should have purely cosmetic items in it, it will never happen. Even games that im looking forward to may or will have it. TSW for an example, im sure they will have outfits and exp scrolls. Does it bug me? Yes it does.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
For example, if a game took 1000 hours to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 100 hours would that be considered pay2win? If no, how about 10,000 hours? 100,000 hours? Clearly at some point time-savers are pay2win.
Alternatively, if a game took 1 hour to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 10 minutes this would not be considered pay2win because it was so trivial.
In my book, it is pay2win or at best deep down the slippery slope.
And yet, guildwars 2 is much c loser to your second example. Every level after 15 has a the same TTL as every other level. No inflating the xp per level to make it seem like the game is longer... I believe they said that each level takes about 90 minutes. That makes it 120 hours to max level played continuously(assuming you aren't stopping to do the exploration stuff, or use the auction house, or any number of other things that might make the game enjoyable). Someone who used cash shop items to make it faster(assuming they used a new one every time the last one expired) would go through 216 of the exp boosts, and would take 108 hours to make max level instead of 120... Has 12 hours somehow become P2W? By your logic, this would be "trivial" and not considered P2W, and yet you conclude that it is P2W...
Maybe you've never seen the math done that way, but it sure looks trivial to me...
How about some more math? Lets say, for the sake of argument, that each of the xp boosts costs 50 cents... That is 108 dollars to save 12 hours... how about if they cost a dollar a piece? 216$ to save 12 hours? If it is 1 cent each and it costs them $2.16, is it still P2W(since pretty much everyone should be able to afford that, if they are buying a $80 game)
The other thing is this concept of "win". "Win" implies competition, so who exactly are they winning against with these exp boosts? It won't be people in PvP, since PvP is normalized(level in WvW and level+gear in arena/e-sport)... And in PvE this is a coop game, and the most they will be is 12 hours ahead of someone who has put in the same time, and EVERYONE SCALES, so its not even like they can see content the other person can't get to...
I just don't understand how this is P2W and what, exactly, they are supposed to be winning, and who is losing(since in order to have a winner you have to have a loser). If no one is losing, and no one who is using these items is getting any advantage which is not trivial(in my estimation, and I think in yours as well) how exactly is it P2W?
and i'll bet i'll take more then 120 hours to level. at least, i hope so. i plan on looking around in every nook and cranny.
i find the whole "double xp" time saving devices amusing in this particular game, given they've gone to such effort to reduce the grind and make every part of the game fun, while at the same time giving you the freedom to pop yourself into pvp no matter your level and compete!
to be honest, for gw2, i think these double xp things are a waste of time...
Comments
I agree its dumb,
Pay to win or not depends on the player and is subjective. Unless the player is competing in some way nothing is pay to win. It makes no difference how many or how offensive advantages they sell in the cash shop. Some will always feel it makes no difference and that they dont need to buy it. That they can accept any and all limitations and have fun anyway.
On the other hand different players can compete in several different ways. They have different playstyles. Player B:s competion could be pointless and boring for player A. Your competion could be to become the best crafter on the server, have more gold than anyone, be first to max level, be the best PvP player, kill the most difficult PvE mobs or almost anything that someone for some reason wants to focus on. It could be common or uncommon...
So its impossible to agree if some item they sell in a CS is P2W or not. There will probably always be some that think it is and others that think its not. And this is also true for the CS in any game.
There will always be some that think any possible advantage is wrong and bad. And it makes no difference if they personally think its p2W or not. Because they dont like the CS business model in general.
Perhaps. But it's possible for players to agree that the major forces in the MMO game are driving in the direction that most fear, rather than away from it; and they have been chipping away at their own integrity for quite some time.
It's another small and meaningless step. Another company, or another time, we'll take the next.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Because those arguing for cheating are dishonest people. Seriously, what did you expect? They are cheaters for god sake.
I have seen cheaters arguing for why they should be allowed to cheat and how it doesn't negatively effect anyone else. Except that at the end of the day, they know and we know that everything in human society is about relative measures, and they cheat to get that relative advantage.
In regards to your question, they use the "max level" argument to hide the true facts that the xp boost is just for the small part that is leveling. After you reach max level there are the gold and other boosts to give you further time savings up until the day you quit playing. Of course, cheater proponents of the specific game in question love to argue that their game is "horizontal progression" so gold/time doesn't matter. Which is a plain false statement. Seriously, GW1 which is a horizontal progression game has some of the most potent gold/time sinks I have ever seen.
All of those can be translated into one word...Time. And that was what the original post was all about. The lie that is being propagated is that time doesn't matter, when in fact time is everything, or more explicitly, time is winning.
But really, I prefer to just avoid the whole "what constitutes winning" argument all together as it just gives opportunity for those who want the manipulate the word "win". Instead, just call it pay2cheat and watch the cheaters try to explain how it isn't cheating. They'll pretty quickly bring up the argument that it is implemented by the devlopers, so it isn't cheating. And at that time you can simply give the killing blow by calmly pointing out that developers has added cheats into single player games since the beginning of time.
The change in terminology is to ease the players who are not already on the RMT money train into the system. Cash shops that sell advantages and power are the way of the future, and I couldn't be happier. I don't have a whole lot of time to play between my numerous obligations, but I do have a lot of money, and why should your time be worth more than my money to developers?
What's going to keep the servers up and running and the developers well fed? Your time or my money?
You've already lost. Money speaks louder than... well, the speech of those who don't spend money. The sooner the rest of the market allows players to purchase advantages and power for their money the better off we'll all be. Choice is good.
Players should not have an advantage over other players simply because they have put more time into their characters. We are in the new age of capitalism in gaming!
That's not how the business model works.
In a F2P MMO, the free players are often as important as the paying ones. The model is managed very differently from a subscription game. While there may very well be back of the queue prioritizing sometimes, the free player is understood to be a very valuable user of the service.
Look at the home page for any F2P game and you will see there are constant events, festivals and special weekends. When you hop in game, you will often see there are GMs and staffers that are hanging out in channel, chatting with the players. The towns or NPCs are usually redecorated for holidays and events. This content is just as much for the free player as the paying player. The reason being is that the free players are, to a certain degree, content for paying players.
Players being content for other players is absolutely true of subscription MMOs, as well. Veteran players will leave a server that feels ‘dead’. When new players log into a ‘dead’ server, they aren’t too likely to stick around. The vanity players need people to show their stuff off to, the entertainers need people to entertain, the raiders and grinders need people to group with, and the socializers need people to chat with.
In the F2P model, you already know that you’re only getting cash from a small percentage, so it’s not like you are putting much effort into getting cash from the rest – they had no intention of spending anything to begin with, so you focus your item mall primarily on those who will. You concentrate your efforts in two areas
providing engaging content to bring in as many free players as you can
providing desirable items in the mall for the players looking to invest extra in their hobby/entertainment
The vanity case isn’t going to buy new bling if there’s no one to show it off to.
The raider/grinder isn’t going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn’t have players to group with or compete against. The socialiser isn’t going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he’s logging in and just playing alone.
Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I read up to here. And then stopped. That is your wrong assumption and everything else is just smoke and mirrors.
Not every MMORPG is by design without a progression cap. I would even go as far as to say every MMO with no progression cap is flawed from a design point, especially with pvp in it. (especially with vertical progression)
But i know, the WoW generation dont know any better, and are to narrow minded to see anything else. Not every game is a grind by definition, not every game is designed to be a endless grind, not every game needs a carrot on a stick. Just the worst of games need it. imho
Peace and love brother, peace and love. Doesn't sound like Guild wars 2 is your game. You should play something where the illusion of power is more transparent.
I like the OP, he's so cock sure he knows something when in fact he knows damn near nothing, simply put: F2P = best build with time-skipping/xp augmenting premium items, anything else feels like a money grab and rightfully so while also placing stress on the devs to keep the premium items flowing while P2P gives you everything for a flat rate per month, there's also Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 who are B2P but those are hybrid beasts and by the looks of things could be the best of both worlds with the right devs.
No he probably doesn't realize that, but he also probably won't come back to the thread to tell you that. The number of people with misinformation about the game that bitch and moan in these threads is astounding. It's like they've never done any research on the game themselves at all, but somehow think they're qualified to dissect (spelling?) it. So they proceed to dice it from limb to limb when then don't even know basic things about it. Amazing.
I sooooo agree with you. These are people we've likely played games with, side by side. That would explain a lot of my past disgust in game communities, actually. Common sense and logic are definitely not common.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Your argument is falacious.
Regardless of the original point, your concern with individual progression difference between players in pvp that is largely insignificant in games outside the wow-bg-arena type gameplay due to more focus on group objectives and lack of player number restrictions while talking down to someone about "wow generation" is hilarious.
Flame on!
While i do think that any form of cash shop should have purely cosmetic items in it, it will never happen. Even games that im looking forward to may or will have it. TSW for an example, im sure they will have outfits and exp scrolls. Does it bug me? Yes it does.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
and i'll bet i'll take more then 120 hours to level. at least, i hope so. i plan on looking around in every nook and cranny.
i find the whole "double xp" time saving devices amusing in this particular game, given they've gone to such effort to reduce the grind and make every part of the game fun, while at the same time giving you the freedom to pop yourself into pvp no matter your level and compete!
to be honest, for gw2, i think these double xp things are a waste of time...