Can we just be honest with ourselves and others about paying for advantages?

Badgered86

 

You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!

Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post. In order to do so I'd like to define what I consider to be a paid-for in-game advantage. This is what we shall use as the definition of synonyms for "pay to win", "pay to cheat", "pay for power", "pay for advantages", and any similar labels in this thread.

Advantage (n.) (cash shops)

Paying real-life money for an item or benefit that:

1. 
   Grants access to other items or other benefits that are commonly seen in the game but are not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (Imagine if a Zod rune were a key, and said rune was the only manner of opening commonly dropped chests, but Zod runes were purchaseable from a hypothetical Diablo II store.)
2. 
   Modifies the standard game rules (experience gain, resource gain, movement speed, combat modifiers, etc.) and is either exclusive to the cash shop or not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (IP Boosts in League of Legends, Skill Unlock Packs in Guild Wars 1. Not the skills themselves, but the packs.)
3. 
   Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a statistical edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that provides a larger statistical bonus than items normally found in the game. The amount of statistical edge is irrelevant.)
4. 
   Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a probability edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that loads the dice of the RNG in your favor. The amount of the probability edge is irrelevant.)

I feel this is a fair definition of an advantage as it relates to games with cash shops. The intent is to identify any cash shop item that gives you a perk (even if it is a tiny one) over people who don't buy that item from the cash shop, however short-lived the effects may be.

That said, are you comfortable with items such as these being sold in MMORPGs with cash shops regardless of the game's subscription model? If yes, why? If not, why not? I appreciate your time and cooperation with this excercise.  Thanks for reading!

Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!

Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post.

This isn't how a discussion works, if a person can't use their own rationale to approach a topic, rather they are held to a strict and forced rule of the topic, there's no discussion that will come of it, only you pushing your subjective reasoning on others.

waynejr2

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!

Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post. In order to do so I'd like to define what I consider to be a paid-for in-game advantage. This is what we shall use as the definition of synonyms for "pay to win", "pay to cheat", "pay for power", "pay for advantages", and any similar labels in this thread.

Advantage (n.) (cash shops)

Paying real-life money for an item or benefit that:

1. 
   Grants access to other items or other benefits that are commonly seen in the game but are not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (Imagine if a Zod rune were a key, and said rune was the only manner of opening commonly dropped chests, but Zod runes were purchaseable from a hypothetical Diablo II store.)
2. 
   Modifies the standard game rules (experience gain, resource gain, movement speed, combat modifiers, etc.) and is either exclusive to the cash shop or not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (IP Boosts in League of Legends, Skill Unlock Packs in Guild Wars 1. Not the skills themselves, but the packs.)
3. 
   Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a statistical edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that provides a larger statistical bonus than items normally found in the game. The amount of statistical edge is irrelevant.)
4. 
   Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a probability edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that loads the dice of the RNG in your favor. The amount of the probability edge is irrelevant.)

I feel this is a fair definition of an advantage as it relates to games with cash shops. The intent is to identify any cash shop item that gives you a perk (even if it is a tiny one) over people who don't buy that item from the cash shop, however short-lived the effects may be.

That said, are you comfortable with items such as these being sold in MMORPGs with cash shops regardless of the game's subscription model? If yes, why? If not, why not? I appreciate your time and cooperation with this excercise.  Thanks for reading!

Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.

After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?

There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

Badgered86

---

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86
 
You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!
Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post.

This isn't how a discussion works, if a person can't use their own rationale to approach a topic, rather they are held to a strict and forced rule of the topic, there's no discussion that will come of it, only you pushing your subjective reasoning on others.

---

The point of this thread is not to discuss the goal post, but rather how you would feel about cash shops selling advantages as defined in this thread. Please stay on topic. There are a myriad of other threads out there (especially on the Guild Wars 2 forum) about what does and doesn't qualify as buying an advantage, so I suggest going there if you want to argue about that.

RefMinor

I disapprove of buying advantage in a game.

Badgered86

---

Originally posted by waynejr2
Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.
After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?
There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

---

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

darkehawke

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!

Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post. In order to do so I'd like to define what I consider to be a paid-for in-game advantage. This is what we shall use as the definition of synonyms for "pay to win", "pay to cheat", "pay for power", "pay for advantages", and any similar labels in this thread.

Advantage (n.) (cash shops)

Paying real-life money for an item or benefit that:

1. 
   Grants access to other items or other benefits that are commonly seen in the game but are not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (Imagine if a Zod rune were a key, and said rune was the only manner of opening commonly dropped chests, but Zod runes were purchaseable from a hypothetical Diablo II store.)
2. 
   Modifies the standard game rules (experience gain, resource gain, movement speed, combat modifiers, etc.) and is either exclusive to the cash shop or not available in adequate quantities for players who do not use the cash shop. (IP Boosts in League of Legends, Skill Unlock Packs in Guild Wars 1. Not the skills themselves, but the packs.)
3. 
   Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a statistical edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that provides a larger statistical bonus than items normally found in the game. The amount of statistical edge is irrelevant.)
4. 
   Is exclusive to the cash shop and provides a probability edge to the purchaser over players who do not use the cash shop. (An item that loads the dice of the RNG in your favor. The amount of the probability edge is irrelevant.)

I feel this is a fair definition of an advantage as it relates to games with cash shops. The intent is to identify any cash shop item that gives you a perk (even if it is a tiny one) over people who don't buy that item from the cash shop, however short-lived the effects may be.

That said, are you comfortable with items such as these being sold in MMORPGs with cash shops regardless of the game's subscription model? If yes, why? If not, why not? I appreciate your time and cooperation with this excercise.  Thanks for reading!

Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.

After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?

There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

This.

//\//\oo

I kind of view timesinks themselves, regardless of whether there exists a cash shop or not to alleviate them, as income dependent.

Timesinks have an economic opportunity cost for most people, other than those with disabilities. So, I think that paid advantages are almost redundant in some MMORPGs, particularly Asian games.

 

That having been said, it doesn't bother me so much as long as it doesn't hamper my ability to explore content to the degree of making it impossible, or if it's a PvP-centric game and it sells distinct combat advantages.

 

 

Nevulus

Can we be honest with ourselves and others about paying for advantages?

Sure. I like GW2, I am looking fwd to GW2. I always thought after playing GW1:Factions that if they would just take this world & combat system and make it into a mmo I would dig it.

 

Well that reality is right around the corner. I have no real high expectations but I do notice they went the cash shop route. Not surprising. And yes I AM HONEST with myself that there WILL be pay advantages either at launch or eventually.

 

But I don't care. I will buy things myself. I work, I do not have as much free time as I did as a youth. But I also know that deep down inside I will grow tired of the game and move on because no developer makes a MMO with longevity in mind, and deep down inside I know that should this cash shop take a turn for the worse, I will not play anymore.

 

I like games that are rewarding. I like taking long to level. I like when a developer makes such interesting content that the leveling process no longer feels like a grind.

darkehawke

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

---

Originally posted by waynejr2

Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.

After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?

There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

---

 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

So if you start 3 weeks before me and level to max, and I buy a xp boost potion, what advantage do I gain over you?

Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

---

Originally posted by Distopia

---

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!

Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post.

---

This isn't how a discussion works, if a person can't use their own rationale to approach a topic, rather they are held to a strict and forced rule of the topic, there's no discussion that will come of it, only you pushing your subjective reasoning on others.

---

 

The point of this thread is not to discuss the goal post, but rather how you would feel about cash shops selling advantages as defined in this thread. Please stay on topic. There are a myriad of other threads out there (especially on the Guild Wars 2 forum) about what does and doesn't qualify as buying an advantage, so I suggest going there if you want to argue about that.

That's the thing, even on this topic there's another side of the story. As that would be the reasoning in voting yes or no to begin with. The question isn't is this okay, it's is this okay to you, that answer will vary based on what you view as an advantage over another or an "advantage" over time and frustration. That's the real question here, is it an advantage over other players or is it a convienence you take advantage of? How you answer this question, would greatly effect the answer to your question.

Castillle

Conditional No.

If many people are purchasing the statistical advantage then it doesnt become an advantage, it becomes a 'standard'.

If it becomes a 'standard' then it will most likely lead to becoming more than a subscription fee.

Now also, depending on how big of an advantage it is, it could lead to being a pay or dont play scenario.  If the advantage isnt big at all and people can still be competetive (S4 league) then sure its fine.

If its not too extreme of an advantage then sure.  If its an extreme advantage, then no.

 

Example :

Gunz.  You either K-Style or you get roflstomped.  And thats not even a cash shop, its just a style of playing. Now its a "be cannon fodder or join them".

waynejr2

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

---

Originally posted by Distopia

---

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!

Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post.

---

This isn't how a discussion works, if a person can't use their own rationale to approach a topic, rather they are held to a strict and forced rule of the topic, there's no discussion that will come of it, only you pushing your subjective reasoning on others.

---

 

The point of this thread is not to discuss the goal post, but rather how you would feel about cash shops selling advantages as defined in this thread. Please stay on topic. There are a myriad of other threads out there (especially on the Guild Wars 2 forum) about what does and doesn't qualify as buying an advantage, so I suggest going there if you want to argue about that.

That's just the thing even on this topic there's another side of the story as that would be the reasoning in voting yes or no to begin with. The question isn't is this okay, it's is this okay to you, that answer will vary based on what you view as an advantage over another or an "advantage" over time and frustration. That's the real question here, is it an advantage over other players or is it a convienence you take advantage of? How you answer this question, would greatly effect the answer to your question.

Well, it could be a situation where people don't like paying for advantage but have no problem playing 80 hours per  week.  Basically saying they support the advantage they current have and oppose advantages they don't have or can't afford.

RefMinor

Originally posted by darkehawke


Originally posted by Badgered86

 


Originally posted by waynejr2

Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.

After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?

There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

So if you start 3 weeks before me and level to max, and I buy a xp boost potion, what advantage do I gain over you?

 

If your potion gets you 4 weeks of xp you may be able to get better armour and kill me in open PvP, you have purchased an advantage over me, do you approve of that?

Distopia

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Distopia

 

That's just the thing even on this topic there's another side of the story as that would be the reasoning in voting yes or no to begin with. The question isn't is this okay, it's is this okay to you, that answer will vary based on what you view as an advantage over another or an "advantage" over time and frustration. That's the real question here, is it an advantage over other players or is it a convienence you take advantage of? How you answer this question, would greatly effect the answer to your question.

Well, it could be a situation where people don't like paying for advantage but have no problem playing 80 hours per  week.  Basically saying they support the advantage they current have and oppose advantages they don't have or can't afford.

That's essentially what I am eluding to, as there are other disadvantages that come on a case by case basis. Which could vary from time disadvantages, health/impairment disadvantages, reflex, etc.

darkehawke

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by darkehawke

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

---

Originally posted by waynejr2

Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.

After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?

There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

---

 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

So if you start 3 weeks before me and level to max, and I buy a xp boost potion, what advantage do I gain over you?

 

If your potion gets you 4 weeks of xp you may be able to get better armour and kill me in open PvP, you have purchased an advantage over me, do you approve of that?

How would I get better armour as a direct result of a xp boost potion?

 

jmcdermottuk

I voted no but I disagree with your definition of pay to win. I would agree with 3 and 4. Anything that provides a solid, comparable statistical advantage is unfair. XP boosts etc I think are merely convenient, so I completely disagree with 1 and 2, largely due to the way you've worded them and the bias that's been included.

 

The whole problem with this debate is where the goal posts are. You'll never get everyone to agree on what's pay to win and what isn't. That being said I have never bought anything from a game's cash shop, and if I find that progression becomes hindered by that I have stopped playing the game.

Badgered86

Originally posted by darkehawke

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

---

Originally posted by waynejr2

Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.

After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?

There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

---

 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

So if you start 3 weeks before me and level to max, and I buy a xp boost potion, what advantage do I gain over you?

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

Badgered86

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

I voted no but I disagree with your definition of pay to win. I would agree with 3 and 4. Anything that provides a solid, comparable statistical advantage is unfair. XP boosts etc I think are merely convenient, so I completely disagree with 1 and 2, largely due to the way you've worded them and the bias that's been included.

 

The whole problem with this debate is where the goal posts are. You'll never get everyone to agree on what's pay to win and what isn't. That being said I have never bought anything from a game's cash shop, and if I find that progression becomes hindered by that I have stopped playing the game.

Would you find experience boosts simply a "matter of convenience" in a competitive open PvP MMORPG? Would you disagree that leveling faster/gaining more gold/gaining better armor through various consuambles that increase your XP gain, gold gain, and probability at finding quality gear would constitute an advantage in the hypothetical game world?

RefMinor

Originally posted by darkehawke


Originally posted by RefMinor


Originally posted by darkehawke


Originally posted by Badgered86


 


Originally posted by waynejr2

Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.

After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?

There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

So if you start 3 weeks before me and level to max, and I buy a xp boost potion, what advantage do I gain over you?

 

If your potion gets you 4 weeks of xp you may be able to get better armour and kill me in open PvP, you have purchased an advantage over me, do you approve of that?

How would I get better armour as a direct result of a xp boost potion?

 

 

Because I Don't have the xp to wear it

Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

First this is what I originally meant, so meh.. :P the goal posts are being questioned already..

Anyway, what you're not considering are people at a disadvantage in general, the guy with little time is one case, the guy who needs a little help (physical impairment) another. Etc... These people are at an outright disadvantage.That's who a lot of these products are aimed at. They're not aimed at you, they're aimed to help people keep up with you.

 

Badgered86

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

---

Originally posted by Distopia

---

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

You are now entering a no-spin zone. If you feel the need to jump through hoops to justify certain models of cash shops, kindly exit the thread. We don't need spin doctors and cash shop apologists polluting the conversation here. Thank you!

Let's talk about paying real life money for in-game advantages in general terms. Before we begin though I want to eliminate the possiblity of a moving goal post.

---

This isn't how a discussion works, if a person can't use their own rationale to approach a topic, rather they are held to a strict and forced rule of the topic, there's no discussion that will come of it, only you pushing your subjective reasoning on others.

---

 

The point of this thread is not to discuss the goal post, but rather how you would feel about cash shops selling advantages as defined in this thread. Please stay on topic. There are a myriad of other threads out there (especially on the Guild Wars 2 forum) about what does and doesn't qualify as buying an advantage, so I suggest going there if you want to argue about that.

That's the thing, even on this topic there's another side of the story. As that would be the reasoning in voting yes or no to begin with. The question isn't is this okay, it's is this okay to you, that answer will vary based on what you view as an advantage over another or an "advantage" over time and frustration. That's the real question here, is it an advantage over other players or is it a convienence you take advantage of? How you answer this question, would greatly effect the answer to your question.

Why would one want to play a game to begin with if the mere thought of playing by the natural laws of the game world equates to "time and frustration?" Why would anyone take up a hobby that frustrates them to begin with? Or am I misunderstanding?

RefMinor

Originally posted by Distopia


Originally posted by Badgered86


 

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

First this is what I originally meant, so meh.. :P the goal posts are being questioned already..

Anyway, what you're not considering are people at a disadvantage in general, the guy with little time is one case, the guy who needs a little help (physical impairment) another. Etc... These people are at an outright disadvantage.That's who a lot of these products are aimed at. They're not aimed at you, they're aimed to help people keep up with you.

 

 

Wow, so p2w is really charitable then, so the rich disabled can beat the poor disabled

darkehawke

Originally posted by Badgered86

Originally posted by darkehawke

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

---

Originally posted by waynejr2

Let's not limit it to only paying for advantages.  What about those who get advantages from having more game time?  If you are going to be honest, that needs to be balanced as well.  There are also computer and network advantages that can matter in some design approaches.

After you solve those small problems, what are you going to do to balance people with physical differences?  Mental differences?

There are many factors that just don't include paying for advantages.  Address all of them OR none of them.

---

 

All of these are externalities that are not controllable by a developer. A developer-created cash shop, however, is. If you wish to discuss external factors that impact MMORPGs this is not the thread to do so. Please stay on topic.

So if you start 3 weeks before me and level to max, and I buy a xp boost potion, what advantage do I gain over you?

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

Point 1 is a good one,  but what if i'm not as good at the game as that other person. If I keep failing events because my coordination isn't so good, then he'll probably be ahead of me in xp despite my potion. Or what if I play on a server that isn't as helpful as his. The people there. Will help him get further in the game than me.

Point 2 is also good, but I perceive it to be more a personal opinion which I can respect.

I'm not trying to be annoying to you, just want to point out that many factors make up an advantage.

Also in my personal opinion a xp.boost would be a disadvantage, I'd rather learn my characters limits

Badgered86

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

 

Two things.

1. There are more people playing a game than you and me. You would have a leveling advantage over anyone who started playing at the same time as you and was able to commit the same amount of time to their hobby as you. Depending on the game in question, this can have severe to negligible consequences. Regardless of the size of the consequence, however, you would still be paying for an advantage (growing in power more quickly) over the other player. I find this inherently wrong, as the foundation for any good game in my opinion is equal treatment under the laws of the natural game world, including experience modifiers.

2. Simply because your leveling faster than I did days/months/years after I hit the level cap doesn't change the fact that you are purchasing a special ruleset for yourself. This is a common flaw I see in people with regards to other more important matters (social justice, discrimination, etc.) in life. Just because an injustice (or a paid for advantage) doesn't effect me doesn't mean it has no impact on other people.

First this is what I originally meant, so meh.. :P the goal posts are being questioned already..

Anyway, what you're not considering are people at a disadvantage in general, the guy with little time is one case, the guy who needs a little help (physical impairment) another. Etc... These people are at an outright disadvantage.That's who a lot of these products are aimed at. They're not aimed at you, they're aimed to help people keep up with you.

Again, those are external factors that a developer has no control over.  I can't regulate the amount of time you work, how quick your mind is, or how sleepy you might be at any given time. I can't take the fact that you may have seizures, migraines, carpal tunnel, one arm, one eye, etc., into consideration. The best I can do is create a set of rules for everyone to play by and treat everyone equally under those rules.

The intent of this thread is to get as straight an answer as possible out of people with regards to how they feel about bending those natural in-game rules through real-life money in cash shop.

Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Badgered86

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That's the thing, even on this topic there's another side of the story. As that would be the reasoning in voting yes or no to begin with. The question isn't is this okay, it's is this okay to you, that answer will vary based on what you view as an advantage over another or an "advantage" over time and frustration. That's the real question here, is it an advantage over other players or is it a convienence you take advantage of? How you answer this question, would greatly effect the answer to your question.

Why would one want to play a game to begin with if the mere thought of playing by the natural laws of the game world equates to "time and frustration?" Why would anyone take up a hobby that frustrates them to begin with? Or am I misunderstanding?

More or less a misunderstanding, as time and frustration could mean a lot of things on this subject. Not just the guy who hates the game.IE Save time could mean an advantage for the person who has none, frustration the guy that just can't handle the game due to physical difficulty or etc..