I'd have to classify GW2 as the new Disneyland of MMO's. I don't think it will be an RPG per se, but more a big happy playland. Gone are the days of serious mmorpg fans we had in WoW Vanilla and TBC. Oh well, those were the good old days of gear grinding and raids. It will be missed a bit. Now if we can just get Blizzard to host a few Vanilla and TBC servers only f2p we could go back!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
In GW1, you can't take your PvP only characters into PvE, not sure what you're getting at there.
Maybe you're talking about WoW... I saw a guy multi-boxing 5 identical shaman I think it was... had one letter difference in their names. Could take them PvP, PvE... oh wait.. maybe WoW isn't an RPG at all then. Dang, all those RP guilds are going to be shocked! Well... the Goldshire crowd won't care, they're doing their own thing anyhow.
No, I'm talking about Guild Wars. Actually *read* the post and think about what I wrote.
Read mine and you'll understand that I did, and provided a counter example demonstrating the flaws in your logic.
GW1 isn't an MMORPG because it violates requirement one...no persistent world. And I don't think you can count the towns as being a "world" .
For GW2...they are trying to challenge requirement number 3, stating that it is not an MMORPG because it's not an RPG due to it lacking progression. But they are COMPLETELY IGNORING the PvE part of the game which makes up the MAJORITY of the game.
Roleplaying is not about getting levels or gear, and it never was. If it was then Diablo would be the ultimate roleplaying game.
Roleplaying is about immerse yourself into characters and strange worlds, or as someone said "To boldly go where no man have gone before".
Well, TBH, I think progression of some sort is a HUGE part of RPGs. I don't think you could call a game an RPG if it did not feature progression as one of its major mechanics.
It doesn't have to be "levels and gear" it can be something else, but it HAS to be progression. It can be skills, social contacts, followers...whatever. The point is that you have to be progressing in some way for it to be an RPG.
This isn't to say that an RPG can't have tons of things OTHER than progression...I'm just saying that if a game doesn't have progression, it's not an RPG.
Well, TBH, I think progression of some sort is a HUGE part of RPGs. I don't think you could call a game an RPG if it did not feature progression as one of its major mechanics.
It doesn't have to be "levels and gear" it can be something else, but it HAS to be progression. It can be skills, social contacts, followers...whatever. The point is that you have to be progressing in some way for it to be an RPG.
This isn't to say that an RPG can't have tons of things OTHER than progression...I'm just saying that if a game doesn't have progression, it's not an RPG.
I could make a case that it isn't progression you are really talking about, but rather that "things change."
I'd love to see a RPG all about regression, you start out super powerful and lose everything... playing the downward spiral.
Would be... interesting.
So to me, a RPG is a game that is really about a story.
Whether it's your story or the story of the characters you control/interact with, it's still all about a journey.
The idea that stat progression = "what you learn on your journey" is a very old school, classical interpretation only brought about by an extreme lack of creativity.
A game that followed the journey of Alice in Alice in Wonderland with 0 stats or skills or "progression" would still be an RPG to me.
We get it, you need gears and numbers to hide behind. Some people just can't play games well, so they use all these unfair virtual protections. That's perfectly fine.
When you want to play a game that is about how a good player is and not how high his gear is, then you come play GW2. When you want to play your carebear hide behind gear games, stay away. It's that simple.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
Yes YOU think all mmos should be mostly about progression, but not everyone has such a narrow field of view on the subject. Can't you understand that this opinion you have of how all mmos should be is only in your head because you have only been playing mmos that enforce that idea? Mmos can be anything they want to be!
A lot of people are bored of the same old thing and are crying out for something that does things differently. This is one game amongst many that is trying to provide that. YOU are free to play any of the other mmos that give YOU what YOU want. There isn't much point in complaining about a product simply because it doesnt follow the rules of all the other products you like. That's just really stupid
We get it, you need gears and numbers to hide behind. Some people just can't play games well, so they use all these unfair virtual protections. That's perfectly fine.
When you want to play a game that is about how a good player is and not how high his gear is, then you come play GW2. When you want to play your carebear hide behind gear games, stay away. It's that simple.
I'm sorry, I'm a big fan of the entire GW2 project but the more I read, watch, and hear from others this game will be as "carebear" as WoWs Cataclysm. It is turning into a huge MMODisneyland. I hope I'm wrong, and all the discussion here is just a big blur of a hellish forecast, but there is no RPG here. It's truly just a playland for either the pvp or pve players. I know there is way more, but that is "my" thoughts in a short paragraph.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
We get it, you need gears and numbers to hide behind. Some people just can't play games well, so they use all these unfair virtual protections. That's perfectly fine.
When you want to play a game that is about how a good player is and not how high his gear is, then you come play GW2. When you want to play your carebear hide behind gear games, stay away. It's that simple.
I'm sorry, I'm a big fan of the entire GW2 project but the more I read, watch, and hear from others this game will be as "carebear" as WoWs Cataclysm. It is turning into a huge MMODisneyland. I hope I'm wrong, and all the discussion here is just a big blur of a hellish forecast, but there is no RPG here. It's truly just a playland for either the pvp or pve players. I know there is way more, but that is "my" thoughts in a short paragraph.
The only thing "carebearesque" about GW2 is that you can't go around killing other people in the PvE areas. Good thing... the mobs will take care of that well enough as it is. It's a nice idea actually... when you don't pit people against each other you can increase the difficulty of the environment as a whole to compensate. You look at any of the reviews from people that went to the 15-25 zones and they were challenged quite a bit, especially when compared to the 1-15 zones.
Roleplaying is not about getting levels or gear, and it never was. If it was then Diablo would be the ultimate roleplaying game.
Roleplaying is about immerse yourself into characters and strange worlds, or as someone said "To boldly go where no man have gone before".
It all goes hand and hand in terms of the Video-game RPG. As most are trying to simulate the idea of normal people doing great deeds, putting people in Frodo's or Luke's shoes would be a good way to describe it. Progression is a big part of that, as you will need to learn to wield the sword before you can use it. We can't cherry pick which are the fundamentals of basic Videogame RPGs. They've all complimented each other in giving the experience that they do.
What you should have said is rpg games are not only about getting gear and levels, but it has been a big part of it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
anyoen who says it's carebear and wow clone.. simply hasn't watched any videos.. check out TotalBiscuts youtube video where he pretty much talks about combat and dynamic events 45minutes straight.
Anyway, people will think what they want and I could care less. I'm not trying to convince people of anything. I know I will love it as will many others.
My progression is practicing my skills in game. Learning new combos and ways to handle situations better. To me it's no different than a fighting game. You start off a noob but after years and years of practice, you might find yourself participating in EVO.
That's great and can be a lot of fun, but that isn't RPG. It's a lot more FPS style game design. FPS is about the player and their environmental tactics and strategy and their twitch. RPG is about their character.
But the way you handle your character is actually part of it, its like saying playing your role isn't part of the character either. The fact you can't manipulate physically your character in pen&paper doesn't mean this aspect isn't part of rpg in computer game. The fact computer game give you the ability to move and manipulate your character as if you are him is definitely a big difference and i personally think a big advancement between old rpg and computer rpg.
And for anyone a bit sharper that was there for the first pen & paper rpg and the first graphical Mud, well those could have seen the evolution in the way people role played because of this difference. This new medium computer gave them to play their roles. I also think that's what cause the rift between the more traditional pen&paper role player, and the people more open to the new mmo medium (the computer and control over your character). Those people used in game behavior to actual play their role, it went from the spoken level to the acted level. So they used stuff like pking, grief, anti grief, noto pk and all those to play the roles they wanted to have. The more traditional people pointed those guys a if they had no clue what role playing was and should be, and some still do.
I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
Yes YOU think all mmos should be mostly about progression, but not everyone has such a narrow field of view on the subject. Can't you understand that this opinion you have of how all mmos should be is only in your head because you have only been playing mmos that enforce that idea? Mmos can be anything they want to be!
A lot of people are bored of the same old thing and are crying out for something that does things differently. This is one game amongst many that is trying to provide that. YOU are free to play any of the other mmos that give YOU what YOU want. There isn't much point in complaining about a product simply because it doesnt follow the rules of all the other products you like. That's just really stupid
Excellent poing, GW2 is a "game" that is doing things differently.
Unfortunately flattening out the progression curve and capping it basically makes it closer to Planetside than it is to literally every other MMORPG ever made previously.
Like I said, like its predesesor, it really is creating an entirely new category of MMO or its really the next evolution of the MMOFPS genre.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Excellent poing, GW2 is a "game" that is doing things differently.
Unfortunately flattening out the progression curve and capping it basically makes it closer to Planetside than it is to literally every other MMORPG ever made previously.
Like I said, like its predesesor, it really is creating an entirely new category of MMO or its really the next evolution of the MMOFPS genre.
Hard to say it has anything to do with the FPS genre...
If anything it's more like a Zelda game with limited progression and "action based" combat.
So this is the latest missinformed hate thread topic... Really didn't see this one coming.
1) This feature has been there for over a year now. You can read up on how it actually works by going to the site / GW2guru, the wiki, or a number of other resources available to the public.
2) This works much the same as it did in GW1. You can either:
a) Make a PvP character (this is a character that cannot go into the PvE areas, and can ONLY participate in structured PvP / the Mists). This character will be 80, will be given generic gear equal to that of what a lvl 80 should have, and have access to a full range of skills / weapons / talents to use.
b) Go into pvp on your PvE character. In this game you will be up lvled (similar to in TOR or WAR, how all your stats / abilities / etc. get boosted to be at equal power to the rest of those you fight). This will not give you better gear, or more skills, or more traits. It will simply boost the ones you have.
So, NO lvl 1s aren't automatically given lvl 80, pvp gear, skills, traits, etc. You can choose to make a lvl 80 out of creation that can ONLY pvp, and not participate in any of the PvE content. Furthermore, PvP characters get the most generic looking equipment, so you're character will not look anywhere near as cool as someone rolling out a PvE character into PvP.
So, sure... it's carebear in the sense that you can't just buy some epic loot and steamroll everyone else. (again, something this game has NEVER been about). However it helps to make sure the game is about player skill more than player gear. It also doesn't force you to go through a mountain of PvE content just to PvP. If all you want to do in this game is PvP, you can create a character just for that, at max lvl, without having to go through the hastle of completing all the content just to be able to PvP. If this game had PvP in the PvE areas, this would be an issue; but since PvP is very much in it's own areas, it's really not.
We get it, you need gears and numbers to hide behind. Some people just can't play games well, so they use all these unfair virtual protections. That's perfectly fine.
When you want to play a game that is about how a good player is and not how high his gear is, then you come play GW2. When you want to play your carebear hide behind gear games, stay away. It's that simple.
I'm sorry, I'm a big fan of the entire GW2 project but the more I read, watch, and hear from others this game will be as "carebear" as WoWs Cataclysm. It is turning into a huge MMODisneyland. I hope I'm wrong, and all the discussion here is just a big blur of a hellish forecast, but there is no RPG here. It's truly just a playland for either the pvp or pve players. I know there is way more, but that is "my" thoughts in a short paragraph.
Well to my taste, every single MMO PvE is carebear. I really hope you didn't think PvE in WoW or SWTOR or RIFT was challenging. It wasn't.
I use PvE as a means to have fun. I use PvP if I want something more challenging. You can forecast GW2 as carebear, thats fine. I have forecasted every MMO in the last ten years as carebears... I was right.
Notice though, I was speaking of PvP in my first post. PvP is not carebear if you are on even playing fields. Those are my thoughts, and I much respect your thoughts, as I to some degree agree that GW2 will be carebear.
Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Creslin321 Well, the three requirements for an MMORPG are: 1. Persistent world. 2. Lots of people. 3. Be an RPG. GW1 isn't an MMORPG because it violates requirement one...no persistent world. And I don't think you can count the towns as being a "world" . For GW2...they are trying to challenge requirement number 3, stating that it is not an MMORPG because it's not an RPG due to it lacking progression. But they are COMPLETELY IGNORING the PvE part of the game which makes up the MAJORITY of the game.
Roleplaying is not about getting levels or gear, and it never was. If it was then Diablo would be the ultimate roleplaying game. Roleplaying is about immerse yourself into characters and strange worlds, or as someone said "To boldly go where no man have gone before". Well, TBH, I think progression of some sort is a HUGE part of RPGs. I don't think you could call a game an RPG if it did not feature progression as one of its major mechanics. It doesn't have to be "levels and gear" it can be something else, but it HAS to be progression. It can be skills, social contacts, followers...whatever. The point is that you have to be progressing in some way for it to be an RPG. This isn't to say that an RPG can't have tons of things OTHER than progression...I'm just saying that if a game doesn't have progression, it's not an RPG.
Dying 40 times in a pvp match, and lowering that to 4 over time is progression.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Excellent poing, GW2 is a "game" that is doing things differently.
Unfortunately flattening out the progression curve and capping it basically makes it closer to Planetside than it is to literally every other MMORPG ever made previously.
Like I said, like its predesesor, it really is creating an entirely new category of MMO or its really the next evolution of the MMOFPS genre.
Hard to say it has anything to do with the FPS genre...
If anything it's more like a Zelda game with limited progression and "action based" combat.
I look at it as the progression of games like Diablo. Without the focus on trinkets..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
GW2 isnt a traditional MMORPG, afew companies are starting to move away from it now. this is great, i'm not saying this because im all "GRRR Traditional Sucks Trololol" im saying this because variety was needed. Traditional MMO's should keep being made for people who prefer Time over (insert Requirement here) GW2 is Skill over Time, and TSW is Planning/Cleverness over Time. Sure both games have the Time factor still in them however they use time differently.
i've talked to people who wish they would create a MMO without a level cap so they could litereally level indefinately and get to a impossibly high level. they don't want to have to actually become skilled at the game, they just want to spend their time repeating the same move to become impossibly strong. and there is nothing wrong with that.
i think the best way to put it is that we want options. Sandboxers have been saying for a long time that they want more sandbox games, its not that they want Themepark games to vanish. they just want to have some selection in what they play. its the same for us, We don't want Traditional to completely vanish, we just want some selection for people who want to have strength not be detemined by how long you sit infront of your computer everyday.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Excellent poing, GW2 is a "game" that is doing things differently.
Unfortunately flattening out the progression curve and capping it basically makes it closer to Planetside than it is to literally every other MMORPG ever made previously.
Like I said, like its predesesor, it really is creating an entirely new category of MMO or its really the next evolution of the MMOFPS genre.
Hard to say it has anything to do with the FPS genre...
If anything it's more like a Zelda game with limited progression and "action based" combat.
I look at it as the progression of games like Diablo. Without the focus on trinkets..
Well, whatever you want to categorize it, it's not a proper MMORPG by the classic definition surrounding progression.
Perhaps its a MMOARPG (MMO Action Role Playing Game) or something similar.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Excellent poing, GW2 is a "game" that is doing things differently.
Unfortunately flattening out the progression curve and capping it basically makes it closer to Planetside than it is to literally every other MMORPG ever made previously.
Like I said, like its predesesor, it really is creating an entirely new category of MMO or its really the next evolution of the MMOFPS genre.
Hard to say it has anything to do with the FPS genre...
If anything it's more like a Zelda game with limited progression and "action based" combat.
I look at it as the progression of games like Diablo. Without the focus on trinkets..
Well, whatever you want to categorize it, it's not a proper MMORPG by the classic definition surrounding progression.
Perhaps its a MMOARPG (MMO Action Role Playing Game) or something similar.
How about we do what ever other Genre did. Make it a Sub Catagory.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Well, whatever you want to categorize it, it's not a proper MMORPG by the classic definition surrounding progression.
Perhaps its a MMOARPG (MMO Action Role Playing Game) or something similar.
Ultima Online was one of the very first MMORPGs and it had very, very "light" progression in comparison to the "modern" MMORPG. Certainly in comparison to Everquest, the other big grand-daddy MMO.
There was no gear progression either.
Is UO then not a proper MMORPG by the classic definition?
Was SWG?
SWG had very "light" gear progression and you didn't even gain any stats while "leveling" per say.
Comments
I'd have to classify GW2 as the new Disneyland of MMO's. I don't think it will be an RPG per se, but more a big happy playland. Gone are the days of serious mmorpg fans we had in WoW Vanilla and TBC. Oh well, those were the good old days of gear grinding and raids. It will be missed a bit. Now if we can just get Blizzard to host a few Vanilla and TBC servers only f2p we could go back!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I'm one of those rare folk who think UO was so much better AFTER the Trammel split, so I am quite used to being on the other side of the fence.
Read mine and you'll understand that I did, and provided a counter example demonstrating the flaws in your logic.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Well, TBH, I think progression of some sort is a HUGE part of RPGs. I don't think you could call a game an RPG if it did not feature progression as one of its major mechanics.
It doesn't have to be "levels and gear" it can be something else, but it HAS to be progression. It can be skills, social contacts, followers...whatever. The point is that you have to be progressing in some way for it to be an RPG.
This isn't to say that an RPG can't have tons of things OTHER than progression...I'm just saying that if a game doesn't have progression, it's not an RPG.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I could make a case that it isn't progression you are really talking about, but rather that "things change."
I'd love to see a RPG all about regression, you start out super powerful and lose everything... playing the downward spiral.
Would be... interesting.
So to me, a RPG is a game that is really about a story.
Whether it's your story or the story of the characters you control/interact with, it's still all about a journey.
The idea that stat progression = "what you learn on your journey" is a very old school, classical interpretation only brought about by an extreme lack of creativity.
A game that followed the journey of Alice in Alice in Wonderland with 0 stats or skills or "progression" would still be an RPG to me.
We get it, you need gears and numbers to hide behind. Some people just can't play games well, so they use all these unfair virtual protections. That's perfectly fine.
When you want to play a game that is about how a good player is and not how high his gear is, then you come play GW2. When you want to play your carebear hide behind gear games, stay away. It's that simple.
Yes YOU think all mmos should be mostly about progression, but not everyone has such a narrow field of view on the subject. Can't you understand that this opinion you have of how all mmos should be is only in your head because you have only been playing mmos that enforce that idea? Mmos can be anything they want to be!
A lot of people are bored of the same old thing and are crying out for something that does things differently. This is one game amongst many that is trying to provide that. YOU are free to play any of the other mmos that give YOU what YOU want. There isn't much point in complaining about a product simply because it doesnt follow the rules of all the other products you like. That's just really stupid
I'm sorry, I'm a big fan of the entire GW2 project but the more I read, watch, and hear from others this game will be as "carebear" as WoWs Cataclysm. It is turning into a huge MMODisneyland. I hope I'm wrong, and all the discussion here is just a big blur of a hellish forecast, but there is no RPG here. It's truly just a playland for either the pvp or pve players. I know there is way more, but that is "my" thoughts in a short paragraph.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
The only thing "carebearesque" about GW2 is that you can't go around killing other people in the PvE areas. Good thing... the mobs will take care of that well enough as it is. It's a nice idea actually... when you don't pit people against each other you can increase the difficulty of the environment as a whole to compensate. You look at any of the reviews from people that went to the 15-25 zones and they were challenged quite a bit, especially when compared to the 1-15 zones.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It all goes hand and hand in terms of the Video-game RPG. As most are trying to simulate the idea of normal people doing great deeds, putting people in Frodo's or Luke's shoes would be a good way to describe it. Progression is a big part of that, as you will need to learn to wield the sword before you can use it. We can't cherry pick which are the fundamentals of basic Videogame RPGs. They've all complimented each other in giving the experience that they do.
What you should have said is rpg games are not only about getting gear and levels, but it has been a big part of it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
anyoen who says it's carebear and wow clone.. simply hasn't watched any videos.. check out TotalBiscuts youtube video where he pretty much talks about combat and dynamic events 45minutes straight.
Anyway, people will think what they want and I could care less. I'm not trying to convince people of anything. I know I will love it as will many others.
Can't wait!
But the way you handle your character is actually part of it, its like saying playing your role isn't part of the character either. The fact you can't manipulate physically your character in pen&paper doesn't mean this aspect isn't part of rpg in computer game. The fact computer game give you the ability to move and manipulate your character as if you are him is definitely a big difference and i personally think a big advancement between old rpg and computer rpg.
And for anyone a bit sharper that was there for the first pen & paper rpg and the first graphical Mud, well those could have seen the evolution in the way people role played because of this difference. This new medium computer gave them to play their roles. I also think that's what cause the rift between the more traditional pen&paper role player, and the people more open to the new mmo medium (the computer and control over your character). Those people used in game behavior to actual play their role, it went from the spoken level to the acted level. So they used stuff like pking, grief, anti grief, noto pk and all those to play the roles they wanted to have. The more traditional people pointed those guys a if they had no clue what role playing was and should be, and some still do.
Excellent poing, GW2 is a "game" that is doing things differently.
Unfortunately flattening out the progression curve and capping it basically makes it closer to Planetside than it is to literally every other MMORPG ever made previously.
Like I said, like its predesesor, it really is creating an entirely new category of MMO or its really the next evolution of the MMOFPS genre.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
lol..OP has obviously no clue how GW 1 worked.
Hard to say it has anything to do with the FPS genre...
If anything it's more like a Zelda game with limited progression and "action based" combat.
So this is the latest missinformed hate thread topic... Really didn't see this one coming.
1) This feature has been there for over a year now. You can read up on how it actually works by going to the site / GW2guru, the wiki, or a number of other resources available to the public.
2) This works much the same as it did in GW1. You can either:
a) Make a PvP character (this is a character that cannot go into the PvE areas, and can ONLY participate in structured PvP / the Mists). This character will be 80, will be given generic gear equal to that of what a lvl 80 should have, and have access to a full range of skills / weapons / talents to use.
b) Go into pvp on your PvE character. In this game you will be up lvled (similar to in TOR or WAR, how all your stats / abilities / etc. get boosted to be at equal power to the rest of those you fight). This will not give you better gear, or more skills, or more traits. It will simply boost the ones you have.
So, NO lvl 1s aren't automatically given lvl 80, pvp gear, skills, traits, etc. You can choose to make a lvl 80 out of creation that can ONLY pvp, and not participate in any of the PvE content. Furthermore, PvP characters get the most generic looking equipment, so you're character will not look anywhere near as cool as someone rolling out a PvE character into PvP.
So, sure... it's carebear in the sense that you can't just buy some epic loot and steamroll everyone else. (again, something this game has NEVER been about). However it helps to make sure the game is about player skill more than player gear. It also doesn't force you to go through a mountain of PvE content just to PvP. If all you want to do in this game is PvP, you can create a character just for that, at max lvl, without having to go through the hastle of completing all the content just to be able to PvP. If this game had PvP in the PvE areas, this would be an issue; but since PvP is very much in it's own areas, it's really not.
Well to my taste, every single MMO PvE is carebear. I really hope you didn't think PvE in WoW or SWTOR or RIFT was challenging. It wasn't.
I use PvE as a means to have fun. I use PvP if I want something more challenging. You can forecast GW2 as carebear, thats fine. I have forecasted every MMO in the last ten years as carebears... I was right.
Notice though, I was speaking of PvP in my first post. PvP is not carebear if you are on even playing fields. Those are my thoughts, and I much respect your thoughts, as I to some degree agree that GW2 will be carebear.
Roleplaying is about immerse yourself into characters and strange worlds, or as someone said "To boldly go where no man have gone before".
Well, TBH, I think progression of some sort is a HUGE part of RPGs. I don't think you could call a game an RPG if it did not feature progression as one of its major mechanics.
It doesn't have to be "levels and gear" it can be something else, but it HAS to be progression. It can be skills, social contacts, followers...whatever. The point is that you have to be progressing in some way for it to be an RPG.
This isn't to say that an RPG can't have tons of things OTHER than progression...I'm just saying that if a game doesn't have progression, it's not an RPG.
Dying 40 times in a pvp match, and lowering that to 4 over time is progression.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I look at it as the progression of games like Diablo. Without the focus on trinkets..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
GW2 isnt a traditional MMORPG, afew companies are starting to move away from it now. this is great, i'm not saying this because im all "GRRR Traditional Sucks Trololol" im saying this because variety was needed. Traditional MMO's should keep being made for people who prefer Time over (insert Requirement here) GW2 is Skill over Time, and TSW is Planning/Cleverness over Time. Sure both games have the Time factor still in them however they use time differently.
i've talked to people who wish they would create a MMO without a level cap so they could litereally level indefinately and get to a impossibly high level. they don't want to have to actually become skilled at the game, they just want to spend their time repeating the same move to become impossibly strong. and there is nothing wrong with that.
i think the best way to put it is that we want options. Sandboxers have been saying for a long time that they want more sandbox games, its not that they want Themepark games to vanish. they just want to have some selection in what they play. its the same for us, We don't want Traditional to completely vanish, we just want some selection for people who want to have strength not be detemined by how long you sit infront of your computer everyday.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Well, whatever you want to categorize it, it's not a proper MMORPG by the classic definition surrounding progression.
Perhaps its a MMOARPG (MMO Action Role Playing Game) or something similar.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How about we do what ever other Genre did. Make it a Sub Catagory.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
That seems to sum it up pretty well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ultima Online was one of the very first MMORPGs and it had very, very "light" progression in comparison to the "modern" MMORPG. Certainly in comparison to Everquest, the other big grand-daddy MMO.
There was no gear progression either.
Is UO then not a proper MMORPG by the classic definition?
Was SWG?
SWG had very "light" gear progression and you didn't even gain any stats while "leveling" per say.
I've always loved this feature in guildwars; I'm glad it's making it in the sequel.
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