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leveled zones=big waste?
bishbosh
Member Posts: 388
in most themepark mmorpgs you have zones which you progress through as you level. after you complele a zone you no longer use it. by the time you reach end game you spend majority of your time in one zone and the rest of the world map is gone to waste.
imagine if somehow the whole world was available to everyone all the time
-larger map: you might not even need instances because there will be so much space
-less lagg because population more spread out
-varied landscape, terrains
-immersion
-for the same development time you have heaps more endgame content
-less linear
one way this could be implelemted in developers could reduce the effect of levelling up on character strengh. focus horizontal progression rather than vertical progression. as you level up you get different abilites, spells and gear but they are not stronger. i think this would fit well with the casual majority.
or you could do what gw2 is doing by scaling your character to fit the zone but this is failry contrived, unimmersive and it will be difficult to balance.
Comments
One way around this is with something like the Guild Wars hard mode system. In the endgame, you still go everywhere.
Some games don't make zones target specific levels, either. In A Tale in the Desert, Puzzle Pirates, or Uncharted Waters Online, the top players might well need to go anywhere in the entire game. Of course, those also have something else in common: they're sandboxes.
Or you can re-use the zones for high level end game content.
For example, in WOW, there are end-game "heroic" version of early dungeons. While those are not leveling/questing zones, the same principle holds.
May be they can instanced/phase the leveling quest zones and use it for other high level content later?
The problem with the autoleveling the zones to your level though is it just kind of makes it pointless to level. If you ever played Oblivion that was the main complaint of the game. No matter where you went in the entire world, your foes would be exactly your level. By the end of the game even a homeless street thug under a bridge was decked out in the best armor in the game. That aspect of the game was pretty universally considered a failure as RPG's go.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
the problem is that you will have essentially instanced everything and the game will no longer be a mmorpg
im not really a fan of instancing in any form. its a compromise.
Instances aren't primarily about solving a population density problem. They're about solving a gameplay problem where only one person/group can attempt something at a time.
Levelled zones are the primary way that players know they've advanced. When you're at max level and the zones haven't levelled to keep pace with you, there's a sense of progression. If every zone always provided a challenge you wouldn't have that.
It'd actually be less immersive when your level 80 character has the same trouble with mobs as that level 1 newbie next to you.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
completely agreed. level scaling is weird and i feel it will feel weird in gw2 as well
just wondering how people feel about horizontal progression over vertical progression. would people play a game with a large focus on horizontal progression ?
that doesnt make to much sense, whats the point in leveling up to get those skills if they aren't any stronger than the ones you start with at lvl 1?
i mean i understand having a variety is good, but still if they aren't more powerful then they should be given out at lvl 1 as well.
what you're asking for is understandable, but not conceivable. does it really make sense for level one's and level 100's to seriously be in the same area? hell no. that doesn't make any logical sense that a level 100 would be killing the same monsters in the same area as a level one. the way the games are now, there ARE reasons for a high lvl to go back to lower level zones, depends what game you're playing.
Most mmorpgs with crafting has the crafting mats you need to powerlevel a new tradeskill. Unless you were rich and just bought everything you needed, but most go out and farm the mats. Some games have zone-specific events, that takes you to lower level zones for the event. Some games technically reuse the same map in the way you're asking for by having the map split in a way that most of the map may cater to lower lvls, but one part may have some vicious higher level mobs that the lower lvls need to stay away from. I remember playing such a map in WoW, cant remember which though, wanna say it was near stormwind, maybe loch modan.
Anyway, just ask yourself, does it really make sense to have lvl 1's and lvl 100's lvling/questing in the same map? Does it really?
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
it makes sense to me. but the again im not really fond of themepark levelling style mmorpgs.
consider this
game A: everyone is lvl 100 from begeining and you have 10 zones to play in
game B: level from 1-100. you spend majority of your time as a level 100 and play in 1 zone.
which game would you prefer. i would take game A anyday.
Well, the CoD FPS games generally follow that model of horizontal progression. You unlock different guns/perks but overall are not really any more powerful (although there is some small leveling within a gun/perk but it is pretty minor). This technique works pretty well for esport type games like the FPSers, not so sure for the more persistant world type games.
One of the joys I have in RPG games in general is the constant improving of my character. Not sure horizontal would be enough as at some point, possibly early on, I'd have the build I like and won't care about other aspects of the horizontal...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I don't even use any zones when I hit max level in those games. After I hit max level, I just do instanced pvp, dungeons, or raids.
I think if players were given something to do other than relentlessly murder everything on the map, more horizontal progression and content reusability would surface.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That frame of thinking is extinct in today's MMORPG developers. Old MMORPGs had it right and made greater use of what map space there was available to the players. Because there were far more things to do than swing an axe/sword/etc. But, whatever, the devs can continue to keep lawndarting.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Then change the def of a MMORPG. Many current MMORPGs have many instances anyway. In fact, that is the trend and where the industry is going. More on demand, small group, instanced content. While many here may not want to call them MMORPGs, that is just symantics.
And that does solve the issue of wasting resources in creating zones. Zones are just graph assets and geometry. If it makes the game more fun, i don't see why devs cannot use them again in other context (like instanced or phased quests). In fact, that would be new and innovative.
Really?
There is really NOTHING to do in EQ but killing stuff. At least now we can:
a) queue for dungeons,
b) quest
c) queue for pvp stuff
d) collect pets & mounts
... gaming is much more advanced than before. I am glad we are NOT going back to the old days.
i think they might be referring to SWG, ultima etc
seamless worlds can be interesting too, the problem is that developers dont want to spend time designing a good and BIG place.....that's why the make instanced zones.
take a look to Entropia, they have huge worlds fitted with realistic mountain chains and forests, you can find creatures of diferent lvls.....i dunno if its procedurally generated but i think its cool, maybe lacks environment content since there's lots of creatures and very open terrain but you cant do much apart from hunting and mining.
i would go with this:
1. non lvl based gameplay, its better with skill based gameplay, encourages people to keep trying
2. the world must be big, but accesible, must have teleporting places if its too big (like in Entropia), and must try to have the most content possible, thick forests, completely full of creatures of different dificulties, not based in lvl to, instead with random stats, so you dont fight the same creatures always (i would like to see also realistic Niches and Ecosystems).
3. you must have options that can modify that whole world, not just kill animals, maybe get wood from trees so you could make lumber mills, also construction, having a big world allows for player made structures, maybe agriculture.....the possibilities are unlimited.......
What? Do you have any idea what you are talking about here? I'll let the other parts of this sentence slide since they are your opinions, but how will it be difficult to balance?
BTW, I agree with you that leveling zones are, for the most part, wasted in the long run.
@Bishbosh - level scaling is in oblivion makes it so that leveling wasn't really worth the time. level scaling in GW2 makes it so that you need to level to be able to do progressively harder content, but older content will not be outleveled. Increasing your level past the max for an area is still going to let you get stronger, but your stats and health are going to be decreased so that the content isn't stupifyingly boring. It lets you have fun playing with lower level friends.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
It is indeed a big waste of space and there are solutions for it.
You can scale the character down or the mobs up of course, but I think the best solution is to make the gap between a new character and a old one a lot smaller.
The whole idea that you become so great that you can run through 20 people without even a tiny scratch is just silly. Not even the most legendary warriors could do that, like Musashi, Wallace, Geronimo, Wilhelm the Bastard, Alexander or anyone.
Early zones should be easy for an experienced character but there is a difference between easy and impossible to die. In most MMOs you can put an old character in a noob zone with mobs on her and just go to lunch and when you are back you still are as good as new.
Many people say that they enjoy getting better and so do i but the whole level system is way too far. I like P&P mechanics like Warhammer fantasy RPG, Runequest and R.I.F.T.S where you constantly becomes better but a trashmob at last theoretically actually can kill you and if you get too many against you you will still die.
Using 90% of the games content the first 2 weeks you play and then spend 2 years in the wait of the next expansion in the last 10% of the game is a huge waste of the work the devs put into the game. MMOs basically takes so long to make and have so huge devolopment cost for content you just pass by in a very short time. If that ain´t a huge waste I don´t know what is.
Am B and C is still killing stuff, B just tells you what to kill and C & A have just been instanced. Not really that much of a difference to me. Collect mounts was already in EQ and collecting minipets is just another way of getting none stat loot.
The big difference is that you more often are being told what to do in a quest then just walk around killing stuff, but even M59, the first MMO had quests.
What is different is that before you spent a long time grinding levels, now you spend that time grinding gear instead.
I have been playing MMOs since 1996, the games were harder in the beginning but more or less all computer games are easier now then back then. They do have cut out some time consuming things like corpse runs and instead adding new ones like daily quests but the games are not so different if you look on the picture as whole.
Quests are somewhat more advanced now, or at least they have added a few more than the kill 10 rats and Fedex quests but they are still basically the same as when I logged on M59 the first time 16 years ago and was asked to kill 10 rats in the moat.
There still is the trinity, skills go on cooldowns and skill rotations.
Nothing much new, hopefully will that change a lot in the next 16 years but I think many would be surprised how close M59 really was to Rift and other pretty new games.
so using your logic, someone who's been through countless life and death situations and is a master in their art(sword magic w/e) should be able to be taken down by 5 or 6 noobs wet from the womb who barely know how to handle their choice of weapon? bullshit. there's no point in 'getting stronger' if you can't just run through 20 people(vastly lower lvl than yourself) without even a tiny scratch.
you guys are getting the problem wrong. its not that leveling zones are wasted. everything has its purpose. copper ore has its purpose, once you past its level, you dont need it anymore. the problem lies with leveling speed. most games allow you to level to quickly. so people eat through the content in two weeks time like you said. a game that takes years to make should not be able to be consumed so god damned fast. its retarded. and THAT is the real issue. if it took even the locusts 2 months to reach max level, then i think things would be fine.
just an example of how leveling speed is to fast nowadays, the people that played vanilla WoW should know what i'm talking about. Remember running UBRS 10man over and over and over to hit lvl 60 while trying to get your set pieces? or trying to quest in Western Plaguelands and it taking weeks to get those last couple levels? When you hit lvl 60 you felt like you became god and now rule over the masses. It was an epic achievement. Now you can level 1-max in less than 7 days. It's stupid. OF COURSE the zones are gonna feel like they're wasted when you miss them if you blink nowadays.
the other issue is devs nerfing content due to whiners. which says to me, split servers. have a casual type server, and hardcore type server. the casual servers will have increased exp rate, and stats, while the hardcore will be what the devs originally intended for the game to be set at. i think that will solve everyones problems, the carebears will have their place, and the hardcore will have theirs, same game, no one (but the carebears and its what they want) will blast through the game in 2 weeks time. the end game bosses will be hard and stay hard for the hardcore, and wont be to hard for the casual. thats the perfect compromise.
tldr problem isnt wasted zones, problem is leveling speed. leveling speed = lower, split servers between hardcore and casual, problem solved.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Do we now have to have every single mechanic that GW2 introduces to the genre posted in some generic fashion as the panecea-cure-all to everyrhing that was ever wrong with MMOs?
I swear, if ANet announced tomorrow that they were introducing functional bathrooms into their game, We'd have posts the next day about how the MMO genre was missing so many realistic daily life activitiy aspects and that these functions really add to the feel and immersion of the game.
Really guys, We already know what GW2 brings to the table. Relax, it's going to be a decent game. Much of it is progressive, but not every single thing is all that great or innovative.
And no, If I am leveling an alt I don't want to compete with a max level character, and no if I am Max level, I don't want to have to deal with every single mob when I travel as though it were my level.
These kinds of GW2 "push" posts are getting ridiculous.
Well I was just about to start this thread. I suppose I can put what I want since it won't be redundant. However, If I don't get any responses I will make my own thread
anyways...
Great thread. I actually agree that leveled zones eventually are a big waste.
I use to be designing an mmorpg, my vision was to have one colossal world in which zones are seamless like the OP has described. Like the OP, I also favor the themepark gameplay of gameplay rather than sandbox. However, I do like the "free" roaming zones within a sandbox world. For the longest time I have been trying to figure out how to incorperate themepark gameplay with a sandbox world. Can it be done properaly?
Usually, leveled zones are based on the level of mobs that are within the zone. That is themepark, Sandbox usually offers mobs that scale with the character most of the time. That is the issue to balance themepark gameplay vs a sandbox world. The mmo I was designing was of themepark design. I like progression, I like class design and balance and everything that goes with it.
So the question is, how can we solve the issue of leveled zones with free roaming players? Perhaps one solution could have zones in different level sectors. As in instead of a zone being within a certian level range, have multiple zones within that level range. Of course, not all zones should a level 1 be able to access. I really hope this can further evolve the thread and spark some discussion regarding this. I would really like to figure this out. It's always intrigued me.
And OP I hope my post is something what you're looking for. I have been thinking about this for a long time. Anyways, I will post my world map again to see if you would consider it to be the huge world you're looking for :P
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/5289344/img/Maps/Mahdran-Version-2-Final---E1.jpg
The return of the map!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
possible to upload the map to a different site?
My isp tend to block alot of site due to porn filter. I'm a bit lazy to call my isp to remove porn filter.
Of course, in the long run most levelled zones are a waste of space. You could return to them, but there is absolutely no challenge or reward in doing so, except if you want to gank noobs in games that support that.
Levelling everything to your level does indeed feel iffy. With the scaling down in GW2 they're making it so that you can't just run through that area without a care in the world. You'll still be considerably (?) stronger than the mobs, but you won't be able to steamroll a zone with your high level character.