You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.
I think you can, I think the trinity system as its core is having someone in those positions. If you have someone healing damage, someone tanking damage and someone doing the damage the trinity is fullfilled. It really doesn't matter how many people can do those roles, how unique the system is to fullfil those roles, or that there isn't whack-a-mole heals or taunts ... its still a Trinity.
You really are splitting hairs here to try and make your point.
Just because people CAN throw out a heal or use a skill to reduce damage doesn't make them a healer or a tank.
Without dedicated roles, there is no Trinity - there are just skills... and situations where using those skills would make sense / probably be a good idea.
Taking damage? Roll out of the way or use a defensive skill. Then maybe heal yourself.
Someone else taking damage? Maybe use a healing ability to help out, then maybe roll towards the mob and try and get it to start attacking you instead.
etc. etc.
GW2 is a system of opportunity cost.
You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.
its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.
I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.
It doesn't really, there is that water-support rain for elementalist as far as I remember and some other spiffy stuff. And, well, the mobs don't stay on one target, they tend to jump from target to target, which renders the tank mostly useless.
Engineer Skills :
Utility - Healing Turret, Applies regenration to nearby allies. Reviving Burst : Overcharges your turret providing increased healing and resurrecting nearby allies.
Utility - Med Kit : Drops Banadges which provide a little healing, Antidote - Effects remover.
Weapon Kits : Elixer Gun : Elixer Spray - Poisons enemies, removes conditions from allies. Super Elixer : Creates a healing area as well as heals allies on impact. Utility - Healing Mist -- Add a regeneration effect to your allies.
Ult : Supply Drop
Elementalist Skills :
Water Blast : Small Heal - Spamable.
Geyser : Aoe heal
Healing Rain : Regen and condition Remover
Cone of Cold : Cone heal/damage
Cleansing Wave : Heal and Condition remover
Water Trident : Heal / Damage
----
Granted not one character will have access to all of these abilities at once, But there is still a significant enough amount of heals to support a party member loading as a Healer/Support.
Hm, I did not know, thanks for correcting me. The mobs hit quite hard in dungeons though, so I don't think it's gonna do that much.
its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.
I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.
THAT MAKES IT NOT A TRINITY lol
If everyone is a hybrid, a hybrid who may or may not be a little better at one thing or another, they are still hyrbid and if everyone is a hybrid then there is no Trinity.
Holy Trinity in MMORPG terminology means - dedicated roles.
There are no dedicated roles.
Only skills... it's all opportunity cost and timing / cooldown management.
You can't really call it a Trinity system when every single profession and every single player playing those professions is going to not only be capable of doing each of those 3 roles but expected to fluidly switch between them based upon dynamic combat conditions and be self reliant.
I think you can, I think the trinity system as its core is having someone in those positions. If you have someone healing damage, someone tanking damage and someone doing the damage the trinity is fullfilled. It really doesn't matter how many people can do those roles, how unique the system is to fullfil those roles, or that there isn't whack-a-mole heals or taunts ... its still a Trinity.
You really are splitting hairs here to try and make your point.
Just because people CAN throw out a heal or use a skill to reduce damage doesn't make them a healer or a tank.
Without dedicated roles, there is no Trinity - there are just skills... and situations where using those skills would make sense / probably be a good idea.
Taking damage? Roll out of the way or use a defensive skill. Then maybe heal yourself.
Someone else taking damage? Maybe use a healing ability to help out, then maybe roll towards the mob and try and get it to start attacking you instead.
etc. etc.
GW2 is a system of opportunity cost.
You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.
I'm not trying to split hairs Spock ... its comes down to a competitive level, teams will be assigning roles to their players. Those roles will be based on their classes , and what that class can do well. I will be playing an Engineer, thus I will be playing a Healer / Support role. I will be doing more than simply removing conditions and healing, I will be throwing damage as well as controling. That doesn't change the fact that my role in a competitive team will be a Healer / Support. That is what my team will rely on me for, in like manner so will they rely on Seige our player who will be Tanking. Just because he's mitigating damage, tanking , doesn't mean he won't have other functions to perform.
When certain classes skills are setup in such a manner where they have exclusivity on role defining abilities .. I.E Healing and Tanking , those classes WILL be performing those roles.
its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.
I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.
THAT MAKES IT NOT A TRINITY lol
If everyone is a hybrid, a hybrid who may or may not be a little better at one thing or another, they are still hyrbid and if everyone is a hybrid then there is no Trinity.
Holy Trinity in MMORPG terminology means - dedicated roles.
There are no dedicated roles.
Only skills... it's all opportunity cost and timing / cooldown management.
its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.
I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.
THAT MAKES IT NOT A TRINITY lol
If everyone is a hybrid, a hybrid who may or may not be a little better at one thing or another, they are still hyrbid and if everyone is a hybrid then there is no Trinity.
Holy Trinity in MMORPG terminology means - dedicated roles.
There are no dedicated roles.
Only skills... it's all opportunity cost and timing / cooldown management.
No dedicated roles = no trinity.
It is as simple as that.
Flexibility doesn't negate the trinity ... it doesn't matter how the Healer and Tanking roles in a trinity are worked into a system. Those roles simply exsisting means the Trinity is alive and well. I've alread established that Healers won't be only healing, and Tanks won't only be mitigating damage. There still will always be someone performing the roles of a healer and tank never the less. Dedicated Roles can simply be predetermined roles for your teams players ... just because the Healing classes can also control or do damage doesn't mean that they can't be a healer.
To me its very simple .... If you have someone tanking damage, healing damage, and doing the damage you have a Trinity system. It doesn't matter how unique it is .... its stil fullfilling the nessecary componets of the Trinity.
To further my point : Your implying that because there is not a Tank , that does nothing but tank ... always is a tank ; That there is not a healer who only heals, never does anything but heal .... That there is no Trinity?
You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.
I will be doing more than simply removing conditions and healing, I will be throwing damage as well as controling. Just because he's mitigating damage, tanking , doesn't mean he won't have other functions to perform.
You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.
I will be doing more than simply removing conditions and healing, I will be throwing damage as well as controling. Just because he's mitigating damage, tanking , doesn't mean he won't have other functions to perform.
Thank you for making my point for me.
No dedicated roles = no Trinity.
I fail to understand how this makes your point? Healers in every game ever made have always had more to do than simply heal. I have always been removing conditions, throwing damage, and in some cases controling. Yet every one of those titles is considered a Trinity game ...
I suppose you'll say because I have a choice in Guild Wars 2 .... which I'll again point right back to what I've been saying for two pages. The roles of a Healer and Tank are still fullfilled, thus a Trinity ... the systems flexibility doesn't detract from the nessecity of having someone to Heal damage and Someone to Mitigate damage.
It doesn't matter if the player currently performing as the Tank can switch to be a Controller or Dpser .... he is still performing a Tanking role at that time. There is still a Tank in the game, likewise for the healing role. There is a reason games have always used a Trinity system ... its the most logical way to organize a group and content. The mmo market will always have some form of a trinity system .... because the basic principles of a trinity sytem must always be fullfilled.
Someone to mitigate damage , someone to heal damage , and someone to do damage.
its a holy hybrid game. Everyone can heal a little, tank a little, and do damage. You can then choose traits to boost the heals, the tanking. But it never comes to the level of the dedicated healers in other games.
I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.
THAT MAKES IT NOT A TRINITY lol
If everyone is a hybrid, a hybrid who may or may not be a little better at one thing or another, they are still hyrbid and if everyone is a hybrid then there is no Trinity.
Holy Trinity in MMORPG terminology means - dedicated roles.
There are no dedicated roles.
Only skills... it's all opportunity cost and timing / cooldown management.
No dedicated roles = no trinity.
It is as simple as that.
Flexibility doesn't negate the trinity ... it doesn't matter how the Healer and Tanking roles in a trinity are worked into a system. Those roles simply exsisting means the Trinity is alive and well. I've alread established that Healers won't be only healing, and Tanks won't only be mitigating damage. There still will always be someone performing the roles of a healer and tank never the less. Dedicated Roles can simply be predetermined roles for your teams players ... just because the Healing classes can also control or do damage doesn't mean that they can't be a healer.
To me its very simple .... If you have someone tanking damage, healing damage, and doing the damage you have a Trinity system. It doesn't matter how unique it is .... its stil fullfilling the nessecary componets of the Trinity.
How many times in a trinity based game do you see a necro running into battle? Or for that matter a defended or knight fleeing?
Thats the difference it makes in game and is why its NOT TRINITY BASED. In a normal MMO you would have a DEDICATED Healer, which means hes only going to be healing, he cant run in and do serious damage without wiping immedietely, thats why he has to stay back and cast spells.
This system is flexible and allows everyone to get into the action immedietely and fight.
The other example of the knight, normally you would have a knight defending and fighting oppoents and this could go one of two ways, either
A. he would be waiting on a heal, t
or
B. He would have to fight to the death and stand there hacking away. This is because he cant heal himself (save maybe a few small skills a warrior class would get as a last ditch) and mid as well try and get the job done.
This is specifically why you see so many people tactically running away in GW2 because THEY CAN heal themselves, making them not just a Tank, its as simple as that.
You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.
I will be doing more than simply removing conditions and healing, I will be throwing damage as well as controling. Just because he's mitigating damage, tanking , doesn't mean he won't have other functions to perform.
Thank you for making my point for me.
No dedicated roles = no Trinity.
I fail to understand how this makes your point? Healers in every game ever made have always had more to do than simply heal. I have always been removing conditions, throwing damage, and in some cases controling. Yet every one of those titles is considered a Trinity game ...
You were fortunate to play games as a class that could do all those things - a hybrid.
But was the game designed so that for each encounter you didn't have to have a tank, a healer, and dps/control?
No. You did. Just because you could do other things at the same time doesn't mean you still didn't have a dedicated role - your primary focus/reason for being there in that group.
Hybrids do make the line fuzzy, using WoW for an example like Druids/Paladins that COULD do everything, but they had to assign themselves a dedicated role for 99.99% of all group content in the game.
You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.
I will be doing more than simply removing conditions and healing, I will be throwing damage as well as controling. Just because he's mitigating damage, tanking , doesn't mean he won't have other functions to perform.
Thank you for making my point for me.
No dedicated roles = no Trinity.
I fail to understand how this makes your point? Healers in every game ever made have always had more to do than simply heal. I have always been removing conditions, throwing damage, and in some cases controling. Yet every one of those titles is considered a Trinity game ...
You were fortunate to play games as a class that could do all those things - a hybrid.
But was the game designed so that for each encounter you didn't have to have a tank, a healer, and dps/control?
No. You did. Just because you could do other things at the same time doesn't mean you still didn't have a dedicated role - your primary focus/reason for being there in that group.
Hybrids do make the line fuzzy, using WoW for an example like Druids/Paladins that COULD do everything, but they had to assign themselves a dedicated role for 99.99% of all group content in the game.
Exactly, which is why in hybrid classes like Paladin, you could chose to tank or heal and even spec yourself a certain way to fit that need later on in a dungeon.
I dont know if the person we are debating with played WoW, but im sure anyone that has knows what general chat looked like.
"Need Heal Specced Paladin" "Need Feral Druid" etc. etc
So again in other words, Tinity games MAJORITY and I mean 95% of the time you need a healer in the group, a tank and a dps, in GW2 thats not nessecary.
You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.
I will be doing more than simply removing conditions and healing, I will be throwing damage as well as controling. Just because he's mitigating damage, tanking , doesn't mean he won't have other functions to perform.
Thank you for making my point for me.
No dedicated roles = no Trinity.
I fail to understand how this makes your point? Healers in every game ever made have always had more to do than simply heal. I have always been removing conditions, throwing damage, and in some cases controling. Yet every one of those titles is considered a Trinity game ...
But was the game designed so that for each encounter you didn't have to have a tank, a healer, and dps/control?
This is what the whole discussion comes down to .... I'm going to ask a simple question.
Is Guild Wars 2 designed in such a fashion that it is not benficial to have someone performing the Healer role, or the Tanking role?
* Think about this as it relates to Competitive play I.E Difficult content and PvP.
"No. You did. Just because you could do other things at the same time doesn't mean you still didn't have a dedicated role - your primary focus/reason for being there in that group."
I love this by the way , as it pretty much sums up the discussion. You WILL have people in a group who's primary reason for being there is to fullfill the Healer and Tanker role. Which means we've moved away from the counter that Trinity means Dedicated as in unable to change ... and now it means what I've been on about the whole discussion, someones role I.E The Primary focus / reason for being in that group.
You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.
I will be doing more than simply removing conditions and healing, I will be throwing damage as well as controling. Just because he's mitigating damage, tanking , doesn't mean he won't have other functions to perform.
Thank you for making my point for me.
No dedicated roles = no Trinity.
I fail to understand how this makes your point? Healers in every game ever made have always had more to do than simply heal. I have always been removing conditions, throwing damage, and in some cases controling. Yet every one of those titles is considered a Trinity game ...
But was the game designed so that for each encounter you didn't have to have a tank, a healer, and dps/control?
This is what the whole discussion comes down to .... I'm going to ask a simple question.
Is Guild Wars 2 designed in such a fashion that it is not benficial to have someone performing the Healer role, or the Tanking role?
* Think about this as it relates to Competitive play I.E Difficult content and PvP.
"No. You did. Just because you could do other things at the same time doesn't mean you still didn't have a dedicated role - your primary focus/reason for being there in that group."
I love this by the way , as it pretty much sums up the discussion. You WILL have people in a group who's primary reason for being there is to fullfill the Healer and Tanker role. Which means we've moved away from the counter that Trinity means Dedicated as in unable to change ... and now it means what I've been on about the whole discussion, someones role I.E The Primary focus / reason for being in that group.
Is Guild Wars 2 designed in such a fashion that if the person that youve dedicated to heal you dies your entire team wipes???
Nope, sorry it doesnt have to happen in Guild Wars 2, other people can be responsible for healing themselves so you dont have to have a dedicated healer and it doesnt have a massive benefit like in TRINITY BASED GAMES.
Sorry im not going to sugar coat this like other people, but your Wrong. I just proved it, now try and understand the logic behind it.
Is Guild Wars 2 designed in such a fashion that if the person that youve dedicated to heal you dies your entire team wipes???
Nope, sorry it doesnt have to happen in Guild Wars 2, other people can be responsible for healing themselves so you dont have to have a dedicated healer and it doesnt have a massive benefit like in TRINITY BASED GAMES.
Sorry im not going to sugar coat this like other people, but your Wrong. I just proved it, now try and understand the logic behind it.
So 1/3rd of the elementalists skills , Engineers skills , and Guardians skills are complete garbage and will have no use what so ever.
Competitive teams will not be building a Healer / Support role or a Tanker role.
You are absolutely off your rocker if you think competitive teams won't have a Designated player for Healing and Support. I will also enjoy steam rolling any teams who do not understand the nessecity of this in PvP.
You are a prime example of the problem with the statement " Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a Trinity" , you are going to be incredibly disappointed when you hear a shout of " Looking for Healer loaded Engineer / Elementalist and Tanker Guardian".
* Edited for the : I just proved it .... I just proved the trinity does exsist, so take that. Also for completely ignoring the question .... about a healer and tanker role being benificial.
Diablo 2 was ALL clicking and occasional potion use. People LOVED Diablo 2.
If the gameplay is fun and tight, not laggy, no one will care about the moving and clicking.
The same goes with the swan song of the Trinity.
If the abilities actually fire when they are supposed to and do what they are supposed to do, without lag killing, then yes the rogue can evasion tank the boss for a few seconds while the warrior recovers.
If the gameplay is fun and tight,not laggy, no one will care about the Trinity.
Even Melee and Ranged classes are getting blended somewhat in this game. The article author mentions going from a short range attack to a more melee focus with the push of a button.
It all sounds really good. The videos look pretty good. I hope it is as fun as it looks.
I will repeat again what I said before though, if it is a big laggy mess at launch, it is going to struggle. Modern gamers on PS3 and Xbox are not going to put up with a laggy experience and it kills games on the consoles. PC gamers and MMO afficiando's demand th same performance available in other games already on the market ( Aka WoW or CoD). Anything less will be seen as fail by the mainstream audience.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
So 1/3rd of the elementalists skills , Engineers skills , and Guardians skills are complete garbage and will have no use what so ever.
Competitive teams will not be building a Healer / Support role or a Tanker role.
You are absolutely off your rocker if you think competitive teams won't have a Designated player for Healing and Support. I will also enjoy steam rolling any teams who do not understand the nessecity of this in PvP.
You are a prime example of the problem with the statement " Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a Trinity" , you are going to be incredibly disappointed when you hear a shout of " Looking for Healer loaded Engineer / Elementalist and Tanker Guardian".
* Edited for the : I just proved it .... I just proved the trinity does exsist, so take that.
*sigh*
I really hope Suzie comes back into this thread and explains this to you in a way that makes sense.
She saw, while actually playing the game saw people trying to play the way you described and failing badly. I have heard/read/saw multiple reports of the exact same thing - people trying to play the game the way you describe and falling really, really hard flat on their face.
That is all the proof I need.
All you are saying = theory crafting and supposition.
Everyone I have heard/seen who has played the game says you are wrong.
So 1/3rd of the elementalists skills , Engineers skills , and Guardians skills are complete garbage and will have no use what so ever.
Competitive teams will not be building a Healer / Support role or a Tanker role.
You are absolutely off your rocker if you think competitive teams won't have a Designated player for Healing and Support. I will also enjoy steam rolling any teams who do not understand the nessecity of this in PvP.
You are a prime example of the problem with the statement " Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a Trinity" , you are going to be incredibly disappointed when you hear a shout of " Looking for Healer loaded Engineer / Elementalist and Tanker Guardian".
* Edited for the : I just proved it .... I just proved the trinity does exsist, so take that.
*sigh*
I really hope Suzie comes back into this thread and explains this to you in a way that makes sense.
She saw, while actually playing the game saw people trying to play the way you described and failing badly. I have heard/read/saw multiple reports of the exact same thing - people trying to play the game the way you describe and falling really, really hard flat on their face.
That is all the proof I need.
All you are saying = theory crafting and supposition.
Everyone I have heard/seen who has played the game says you are wrong.
Easy choice as to who I think is right.
Spock ... I can stand on the same platform. Every group of competitive gamers I know have been in the Beta have absolutely told me that there will in fact be people fullfilling the healing and tanking role in competitive play.
It works both ways .... It seems so clear to me that simply having those skills in game means players will infact gravitate towards group setups which incorporate players utilizing those skill sets. If your team is not utilizing them you are effectively playing at a handicap in competitive play.
I guess its going to come down to bookmarking this page, and after launch bumping. By then I really won't care though , I know there is a trinity system in Guild Wars 2 .... others not acknowledging this will ultimately only benifit me in competitive PvP.
So we've come to the empasse of " Lets wait and see who's right ". Just do me the favor of remembering this discussion so most of you are atleast somewhat prepared for the inevitable.
* Edit -- Suzie said people were trying to Stand still and fight like a typical Mmo, whilst bashing buttons. She never even eluded to people trying to play it in defined Trinity roles. She was discussing the ebb and flow of combat in Guild Wars such as dodging, etc etc .
So 1/3rd of the elementalists skills , Engineers skills , and Guardians skills are complete garbage and will have no use what so ever.
Competitive teams will not be building a Healer / Support role or a Tanker role.
You are absolutely off your rocker if you think competitive teams won't have a Designated player for Healing and Support. I will also enjoy steam rolling any teams who do not understand the nessecity of this in PvP.
You are a prime example of the problem with the statement " Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a Trinity" , you are going to be incredibly disappointed when you hear a shout of " Looking for Healer loaded Engineer / Elementalist and Tanker Guardian".
* Edited for the : I just proved it .... I just proved the trinity does exsist, so take that.
*sigh*
I really hope Suzie comes back into this thread and explains this to you in a way that makes sense.
She saw, while actually playing the game saw people trying to play the way you described and failing badly. I have heard/read/saw multiple reports of the exact same thing - people trying to play the game the way you describe and falling really, really hard flat on their face.
That is all the proof I need.
All you are saying = theory crafting and supposition.
Everyone I have heard/seen who has played the game says you are wrong.
Easy choice as to who I think is right.
It works both ways .... It seems so clear to me that simply having those skills in game means players will infact gravitate towards group setups which incorporate players utilizing those skill sets. If your team is not utilizing them you are effectively playing at a handicap in competitive play.
Simply having those skills doesnt make it a Trinity based game. And also the Developers have said its not a Trinity based game from the start.
So you should understand why the probablity of you being right is so minimal, which is why I said you were Wrong, and you still are. We could sit here arguing all day, but your ignoring that facts which is what ultimately makes you wrong.
Lets see what youve ignored, and then you tell me if your still right.
THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE GAME SAID ITS NOT A TRINITY GAME, could they be decieving us and actually putting out the best damned trinity game ever made?
No, because that makes no sense, theres a difference between markting something to appeal to a mass market, and marketing something that goes AGAINST the MASS MARKET.
Since they are going AGAINST the MASS MMO market, they have nothing to gain by lying, thus either making them the stupidest dev team in the world or you Wrong.
If a game allows your character to select between light, medium or heavy armour then isn't that a new type of holy trinity. It's not as if ArenaNet have abolished the holy trinity they just got rid of dedicated healers and gave its players another trinity.
One....Light armour
Two.....medium armour
Three...heavy armour
now David 1 + 1 + 1 equals three.
What is the dictionary definition of trinity well, David, a group of three things is a simple one.
So, yet another MMORPG aritcle that fails on definition. GW2 does indeed have a trinity in its gameplay.
Yes, there will be competitive PvP groups where they build their "team" on a balanced approach to making sure they have someone who is defensively oriented, someone who is healing oriented, someone who is nuke oriented, someone who is debuff oriented, buff oriented, DoT oriented, etc. etc. etc.
But what you are saying is ONE possible way to play the game.
There will be groups of all nukers who kick the crap out of balanced groups. There will be groups of all defensive players who kick the crap out of all nukers...
This still does not mean that there is a Trinity.
Becuase no matter how you try and spin it, because you will always be doing more than whatever "role" you try and pigeon hole yourself into.
And I'm not talking "the DPS who throws an occasional heal or mezz."
I am saying that EVERYTHING points to the fact that things are so much more fluid than that, what role you are playing is changing literally by the second.
Which means there are no dedicated roles.
Which mean there is NOT a holy trinity.
Just because you have a skill that heals on your bars does NOT make you a healer.
If that were true, everyone would be a healer.
And if everyone were a healer, there would STILL be no trinity because everyone is a healer and in order to be a Trinity you HAVE to have seperate, dedicated roles.
Comments
You really are splitting hairs here to try and make your point.
Just because people CAN throw out a heal or use a skill to reduce damage doesn't make them a healer or a tank.
Without dedicated roles, there is no Trinity - there are just skills... and situations where using those skills would make sense / probably be a good idea.
Taking damage? Roll out of the way or use a defensive skill. Then maybe heal yourself.
Someone else taking damage? Maybe use a healing ability to help out, then maybe roll towards the mob and try and get it to start attacking you instead.
etc. etc.
GW2 is a system of opportunity cost.
You can choose to be better at some things versus others, but you will never only be a healer/support or only be a tank or only be a DPS - it just doesn't work like that. Period.
I absolutely agree ... this is exactly what they should have called it from the begining.
Hm, I did not know, thanks for correcting me. The mobs hit quite hard in dungeons though, so I don't think it's gonna do that much.
A moment of silence please and good riddance to the old ways.
A moment of silence - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pUZOPh817A&feature=related
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
THAT MAKES IT NOT A TRINITY lol
If everyone is a hybrid, a hybrid who may or may not be a little better at one thing or another, they are still hyrbid and if everyone is a hybrid then there is no Trinity.
Holy Trinity in MMORPG terminology means - dedicated roles.
There are no dedicated roles.
Only skills... it's all opportunity cost and timing / cooldown management.
No dedicated roles = no trinity.
It is as simple as that.
I'm not trying to split hairs Spock ... its comes down to a competitive level, teams will be assigning roles to their players. Those roles will be based on their classes , and what that class can do well. I will be playing an Engineer, thus I will be playing a Healer / Support role. I will be doing more than simply removing conditions and healing, I will be throwing damage as well as controling. That doesn't change the fact that my role in a competitive team will be a Healer / Support. That is what my team will rely on me for, in like manner so will they rely on Seige our player who will be Tanking. Just because he's mitigating damage, tanking , doesn't mean he won't have other functions to perform.
When certain classes skills are setup in such a manner where they have exclusivity on role defining abilities .. I.E Healing and Tanking , those classes WILL be performing those roles.
+1 for Logic
Flexibility doesn't negate the trinity ... it doesn't matter how the Healer and Tanking roles in a trinity are worked into a system. Those roles simply exsisting means the Trinity is alive and well. I've alread established that Healers won't be only healing, and Tanks won't only be mitigating damage. There still will always be someone performing the roles of a healer and tank never the less. Dedicated Roles can simply be predetermined roles for your teams players ... just because the Healing classes can also control or do damage doesn't mean that they can't be a healer.
To me its very simple .... If you have someone tanking damage, healing damage, and doing the damage you have a Trinity system. It doesn't matter how unique it is .... its stil fullfilling the nessecary componets of the Trinity.
To further my point : Your implying that because there is not a Tank , that does nothing but tank ... always is a tank ; That there is not a healer who only heals, never does anything but heal .... That there is no Trinity?
Thank you for making my point for me.
No dedicated roles = no Trinity.
I fail to understand how this makes your point? Healers in every game ever made have always had more to do than simply heal. I have always been removing conditions, throwing damage, and in some cases controling. Yet every one of those titles is considered a Trinity game ...
I suppose you'll say because I have a choice in Guild Wars 2 .... which I'll again point right back to what I've been saying for two pages. The roles of a Healer and Tank are still fullfilled, thus a Trinity ... the systems flexibility doesn't detract from the nessecity of having someone to Heal damage and Someone to Mitigate damage.
It doesn't matter if the player currently performing as the Tank can switch to be a Controller or Dpser .... he is still performing a Tanking role at that time. There is still a Tank in the game, likewise for the healing role. There is a reason games have always used a Trinity system ... its the most logical way to organize a group and content. The mmo market will always have some form of a trinity system .... because the basic principles of a trinity sytem must always be fullfilled.
Someone to mitigate damage , someone to heal damage , and someone to do damage.
How many times in a trinity based game do you see a necro running into battle? Or for that matter a defended or knight fleeing?
Thats the difference it makes in game and is why its NOT TRINITY BASED. In a normal MMO you would have a DEDICATED Healer, which means hes only going to be healing, he cant run in and do serious damage without wiping immedietely, thats why he has to stay back and cast spells.
This system is flexible and allows everyone to get into the action immedietely and fight.
The other example of the knight, normally you would have a knight defending and fighting oppoents and this could go one of two ways, either
A. he would be waiting on a heal, t
or
B. He would have to fight to the death and stand there hacking away. This is because he cant heal himself (save maybe a few small skills a warrior class would get as a last ditch) and mid as well try and get the job done.
This is specifically why you see so many people tactically running away in GW2 because THEY CAN heal themselves, making them not just a Tank, its as simple as that.
You were fortunate to play games as a class that could do all those things - a hybrid.
But was the game designed so that for each encounter you didn't have to have a tank, a healer, and dps/control?
No. You did. Just because you could do other things at the same time doesn't mean you still didn't have a dedicated role - your primary focus/reason for being there in that group.
Hybrids do make the line fuzzy, using WoW for an example like Druids/Paladins that COULD do everything, but they had to assign themselves a dedicated role for 99.99% of all group content in the game.
Exactly, which is why in hybrid classes like Paladin, you could chose to tank or heal and even spec yourself a certain way to fit that need later on in a dungeon.
I dont know if the person we are debating with played WoW, but im sure anyone that has knows what general chat looked like.
"Need Heal Specced Paladin" "Need Feral Druid" etc. etc
So again in other words, Tinity games MAJORITY and I mean 95% of the time you need a healer in the group, a tank and a dps, in GW2 thats not nessecary.
This is what the whole discussion comes down to .... I'm going to ask a simple question.
Is Guild Wars 2 designed in such a fashion that it is not benficial to have someone performing the Healer role, or the Tanking role?
* Think about this as it relates to Competitive play I.E Difficult content and PvP.
"No. You did. Just because you could do other things at the same time doesn't mean you still didn't have a dedicated role - your primary focus/reason for being there in that group."
I love this by the way , as it pretty much sums up the discussion. You WILL have people in a group who's primary reason for being there is to fullfill the Healer and Tanker role. Which means we've moved away from the counter that Trinity means Dedicated as in unable to change ... and now it means what I've been on about the whole discussion, someones role I.E The Primary focus / reason for being in that group.
Is Guild Wars 2 designed in such a fashion that if the person that youve dedicated to heal you dies your entire team wipes???
Nope, sorry it doesnt have to happen in Guild Wars 2, other people can be responsible for healing themselves so you dont have to have a dedicated healer and it doesnt have a massive benefit like in TRINITY BASED GAMES.
Sorry im not going to sugar coat this like other people, but your Wrong. I just proved it, now try and understand the logic behind it.
So 1/3rd of the elementalists skills , Engineers skills , and Guardians skills are complete garbage and will have no use what so ever.
Competitive teams will not be building a Healer / Support role or a Tanker role.
You are absolutely off your rocker if you think competitive teams won't have a Designated player for Healing and Support. I will also enjoy steam rolling any teams who do not understand the nessecity of this in PvP.
You are a prime example of the problem with the statement " Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a Trinity" , you are going to be incredibly disappointed when you hear a shout of " Looking for Healer loaded Engineer / Elementalist and Tanker Guardian".
* Edited for the : I just proved it .... I just proved the trinity does exsist, so take that. Also for completely ignoring the question .... about a healer and tanker role being benificial.
Quote all ~ "snip" ...
Not worried about clickiness or having to move.
Diablo 2 was ALL clicking and occasional potion use. People LOVED Diablo 2.
If the gameplay is fun and tight, not laggy, no one will care about the moving and clicking.
The same goes with the swan song of the Trinity.
If the abilities actually fire when they are supposed to and do what they are supposed to do, without lag killing, then yes the rogue can evasion tank the boss for a few seconds while the warrior recovers.
If the gameplay is fun and tight,not laggy, no one will care about the Trinity.
Even Melee and Ranged classes are getting blended somewhat in this game. The article author mentions going from a short range attack to a more melee focus with the push of a button.
It all sounds really good. The videos look pretty good. I hope it is as fun as it looks.
I will repeat again what I said before though, if it is a big laggy mess at launch, it is going to struggle. Modern gamers on PS3 and Xbox are not going to put up with a laggy experience and it kills games on the consoles. PC gamers and MMO afficiando's demand th same performance available in other games already on the market ( Aka WoW or CoD). Anything less will be seen as fail by the mainstream audience.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
*sigh*
I really hope Suzie comes back into this thread and explains this to you in a way that makes sense.
She saw, while actually playing the game saw people trying to play the way you described and failing badly. I have heard/read/saw multiple reports of the exact same thing - people trying to play the game the way you describe and falling really, really hard flat on their face.
That is all the proof I need.
All you are saying = theory crafting and supposition.
Everyone I have heard/seen who has played the game says you are wrong.
Easy choice as to who I think is right.
The endless discussion of tank-healer-dps lol are you guys not tired about this subject?
Many will find out soon enough that somehow somethings work differently in GW2 then WoW:)
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Spock ... I can stand on the same platform. Every group of competitive gamers I know have been in the Beta have absolutely told me that there will in fact be people fullfilling the healing and tanking role in competitive play.
It works both ways .... It seems so clear to me that simply having those skills in game means players will infact gravitate towards group setups which incorporate players utilizing those skill sets. If your team is not utilizing them you are effectively playing at a handicap in competitive play.
I guess its going to come down to bookmarking this page, and after launch bumping. By then I really won't care though , I know there is a trinity system in Guild Wars 2 .... others not acknowledging this will ultimately only benifit me in competitive PvP.
So we've come to the empasse of " Lets wait and see who's right ". Just do me the favor of remembering this discussion so most of you are atleast somewhat prepared for the inevitable.
* Edit -- Suzie said people were trying to Stand still and fight like a typical Mmo, whilst bashing buttons. She never even eluded to people trying to play it in defined Trinity roles. She was discussing the ebb and flow of combat in Guild Wars such as dodging, etc etc .
Simply having those skills doesnt make it a Trinity based game. And also the Developers have said its not a Trinity based game from the start.
So you should understand why the probablity of you being right is so minimal, which is why I said you were Wrong, and you still are. We could sit here arguing all day, but your ignoring that facts which is what ultimately makes you wrong.
Lets see what youve ignored, and then you tell me if your still right.
THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE GAME SAID ITS NOT A TRINITY GAME, could they be decieving us and actually putting out the best damned trinity game ever made?
No, because that makes no sense, theres a difference between markting something to appeal to a mass market, and marketing something that goes AGAINST the MASS MARKET.
Since they are going AGAINST the MASS MMO market, they have nothing to gain by lying, thus either making them the stupidest dev team in the world or you Wrong.
So again, your wrong.
last i checked you cant do a dungeon in WoW with 5 rogues
in gw2 you can do a dungeon with 5 thiefs since they can all do dmg, heal themselves, and evade/kite the mobs
What is this? I dont even....
subjective
Ok let's try and explain this another way...
Yes, there will be competitive PvP groups where they build their "team" on a balanced approach to making sure they have someone who is defensively oriented, someone who is healing oriented, someone who is nuke oriented, someone who is debuff oriented, buff oriented, DoT oriented, etc. etc. etc.
But what you are saying is ONE possible way to play the game.
There will be groups of all nukers who kick the crap out of balanced groups. There will be groups of all defensive players who kick the crap out of all nukers...
This still does not mean that there is a Trinity.
Becuase no matter how you try and spin it, because you will always be doing more than whatever "role" you try and pigeon hole yourself into.
And I'm not talking "the DPS who throws an occasional heal or mezz."
I am saying that EVERYTHING points to the fact that things are so much more fluid than that, what role you are playing is changing literally by the second.
Which means there are no dedicated roles.
Which mean there is NOT a holy trinity.
Just because you have a skill that heals on your bars does NOT make you a healer.
If that were true, everyone would be a healer.
And if everyone were a healer, there would STILL be no trinity because everyone is a healer and in order to be a Trinity you HAVE to have seperate, dedicated roles.