But then how do you balance skill *beats the dead horse.*
I mean, thinking back to WotLK WoW, a skilled pvp rogue was unkillable unless you were at his skill level, and even then, it could end in a draw. (same with Frost Mages too I believe)
Skill is the goal. When skill is the determining factor, the game is balanced.
You don't balance skill.
You balance for skill. So that skill is all that's determining victors.
If two equally skilled players fight and one always wins due to class choice (and class isn't something you can freely switch,) that's bad PVP design and/or bad balance.
And there we are again, choosing the right spec and gear is part of skill, but choosing the right class is not, because it requires more time...
Flame on!
Balancing classes in a way that one class is a hard counter to some other class is extremely frustrating for players. Especially when leveling a character to near-max strength usually takes many days. I think such relation between classes actually thwarts individual skill (but may increase the importance of team tactics/strategy) since the player loses automatically against his/her counter class. It is very unsatisfying to know that you couldn't do anything to turn the tide of the battle because of your class choice and you can't change your class anytime soon.
Best place to do the rock-paper-scissors relation is between builds - not between classes.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
DAOC took the approach that each realm was to have its own uniqe classes. So you ended up with some 20+ classes. which was okay considering the game was balanced for mass 100+ v 100+ sieges.
But along with way a small group of hardcore PvPers demanded the game be balanced around 1v1 and 8v8. Its impossible to do with that many classes. DAOC is a good example of what happens when you let the customer dictate to the developer how to balance the game.
the customer is not always right and uaually wrong.
Mythic should've said, "No. we arent doing that. the game was meant for large zergfests, not arena play. you have Guildwars for that."
Zergs. I found it amusing that a game that was designed with the very thing in mind, was villified and looked down on by players. if you ran in a group larger than 8, you were considered to havve no skill. Somehow each group was supposed to know the exact number of opponents in a keep/relic keep and match that. 1 over and it meant no talent and you only won by zergging.
Assassin going to kill you pretty fast before you know you are daed that makes sense and a plate warrior is going to be a little more resistant to damage than most other classes that makes sense and a caster is going to melt your face with hardly any hitpoints that makes sense and a healer is going to suck at everything except healing which makes sense so it depends what you are looking for when you play a game becuase all classes can't be the same. That's why I prefer an open class system.
But then how do you balance skill *beats the dead horse.*
I mean, thinking back to WotLK WoW, a skilled pvp rogue was unkillable unless you were at his skill level, and even then, it could end in a draw. (same with Frost Mages too I believe)
Skill is the goal. When skill is the determining factor, the game is balanced.
You don't balance skill.
You balance for skill. So that skill is all that's determining victors.
If two equally skilled players fight and one always wins due to class choice (and class isn't something you can freely switch,) that's bad PVP design and/or bad balance.
And there we are again, choosing the right spec and gear is part of skill, but choosing the right class is not, because it requires more time...
Flame on!
Balancing classes in a way that one class is a hard counter to some other class is extremely frustrating for players. Especially when leveling a character to near-max strength usually takes many days. I think such relation between classes actually thwarts individual skill (but may increase the importance of team tactics/strategy) since the player loses automatically against his/her counter class. It is very unsatisfying to know that you couldn't do anything to turn the tide of the battle because of your class choice and you can't change your class anytime soon.
Best place to do the rock-paper-scissors relation is between builds - not between classes.
RPS was not my point, that concept is so often trashed about these days that it has become just a straw man, i dont think there is anyone left who will imagine a hard counter system in an other than negative way, which is sad.
As for satisfaction, it is debatable, what is more unsatisfying, loosing because of class choice (and thus you may be more succesfull than the guy that killed you in an other area) and/or gear difference (which can be rectified with some effort) or the realisation, that you are just bad, slow, stupid and unable to press the right buttons, what is what you and Axe are suggesting.
You say gear can be exchanged, a build respecced and learned, which ironically these days can take longer than actually leveling a new character, but "new character bad! new gear good!".
And there we are again, choosing the right spec and gear is part of skill, but choosing the right class is not, because it requires more time...
How interesting would Rock, Paper, Scissors be if you chose one (and only one) of them when you were 6 years old and every game you played had to use the same choice?
...would it even be considered a game at that point?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To answer your question OP, because they are fun. Sure there are some who will find what you are saying fun, there are others who think they will find what you are saying fun and there are others who know that is not fun. The mayority speaks in gaming and just like in many other areas of life, the mayority decides. Companies, at least big ones, will not make a game that will only be played by a niche especially in this economy.
I thought rpgs were about the story, the interactions and not the pew pew and how that n00b warrior does moar damage with his e-peen strike than the mage with his flaming ballz of domination.
*shrug*
Where have you been the last....how many years since WoW popularized MMO's? That idea died when MMORPG's where no longer for nerds, dorks, or geeks. Just like a really good single player RPG. Hard to find anymore. So long as it has some 5 year old writing a story for it they slap RPG on action games.
And there we are again, choosing the right spec and gear is part of skill, but choosing the right class is not, because it requires more time...
How interesting would Rock, Paper, Scissors be if you chose one (and only one) of them when you were 6 years old and every game you played had to use the same choice?
...would it even be considered a game at that point?
Since when is class choice a immutable thing? Are we really heading for that nasty area where we try to convince each other that players only choose classes because of the aesthetics and not what they are capable of? That when you REALLY LIKE to be a rogue wielding two daggers, you should be able to heal and tank and do ranged magical dps as a rogue with two daggers?
And there we are again, choosing the right spec and gear is part of skill, but choosing the right class is not, because it requires more time...
How interesting would Rock, Paper, Scissors be if you chose one (and only one) of them when you were 6 years old and every game you played had to use the same choice?
...would it even be considered a game at that point?
Since when is class choice a immutable thing? Are we really heading for that nasty area where we try to convince each other that players only choose classes because of the aesthetics and not what they are capable of? That when you REALLY LIKE to be a rogue wielding two daggers, you should be able to heal and tank and do ranged magical dps as a rogue with two daggers?
Class choice is immutable in most (all?) MMORPGs.
If there was one which treated class selection like TF2 does, then that would be completely fine (and functionally WOW and RIFT come pretty close to this, locking you into an uber-class, but letting you swap between sub-classes...even within the context of a PVP match or raid.)
But being permanently locked into Rock in R/P/S makes for shitty game, and MMORPGs shouldn't seek to emulate that. But many do, and are worse off for it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Is this a serious question? You're asking why people put in hundreds of hours into a character only to find out that their character is gimped for the sake of being gimped when it could EASILY just be changed? Psh.. can't argue with your logic at all. What seperates you from the other thousands of mages made? You make your own niche in the game by being good at something. That something usually involves combat and since you can't give EVERYONE the same gear for free (because they would be good at combat too), you make people earn it instead. Geez what rock have you been living under?
So if we all agree that classes should not be part of some Rock/Paper/Scissors system, and player skill should be one of the determining factors of balance and pvp (along with gear), wouldn't that leave a lot of people STILL unhappy? Due to that fact that skilled players are few, while unskilled players are many like sheep waiting to be slaughtered? Isn't that why systems like grinding and R/P/S were added in the first place, to appease a larger audiance than just your most skilled players?
If there was one which treated class selection like TF2 does, then that would be completely fine (and functionally WOW and RIFT come pretty close to this, locking you into an uber-class, but letting you swap between sub-classes...even within the context of a PVP match or raid.)
But being permanently locked into Rock in R/P/S makes for shitty game, and MMORPGs shouldn't seek to emulate that. But many do, and are worse off for it.
In all mmos (presumably except those who tie the character to the account, and are classless) you can delete the character and start a new one, not even counting alts, just as you throw away most of your equipment every 4 months or what it is these days, or throw away the wrong type of equipment you gathered and then found out it is not what you need
And again RPS is NOT what i was talking about, if you want to argue against it, find someone who suggests it (like the OP it seems, hmm).
As for shitty gameplay, i personally find the alernative more shitty, tanks running around with twice the hitpoints of nukers doing the same damage, nukers twoshotting people then going around the corner to selfheal to full in 2 casts, classes being only different by rotations or color of their spells, developers and players spending extreme amounts of time talking about and optimizing a system that promises equality in situations which are beyond human capabilities of achieving...
In all mmos (presumably except those who tie the character to the account, and are classless) you can delete the character and start a new one, not even counting alts, just as you throw away most of your equipment every 4 months or what it is these days, or throw away the wrong type of equipment you gathered and then found out it is not what you need
And again RPS is NOT what i was talking about, if you want to argue against it, find someone who suggests it (like the OP it seems, hmm).
Sorry I thought your comment about choosing a class was sarcastically indicating that you thought it was a part of skillful decisionmaking. Guess I misread into it.
Hopefully you agree that picking Rock for life is incredibly shallow, and that picking Rock for 4 months is only slightly less shallow.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Balance is what most people are striving to get to.
Balance is important because when the setting is balanced, the ones that wins and beats everyone is the ones that deserved it.
An good example is my experience with a recently released game, SWTOR, When I beat a similiarly geared player, I Know that I am more skilled than the player, yet when I beat a player that is not as geared, the feeling of accomplishment isn't there.
Not only does it look and feel like bullying, its unsatisfying because everyone will only look at your gear not your skills.
And you will also get less QQing on the forums when the game is balanced. Because you will eliminate everyone that keeps posting asking for nerfs.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Sorry I thought your comment about choosing a class was sarcastically indicating that you thought it was a part of skillful decisionmaking. Guess I misread into it.
Hopefully you agree that picking Rock for life is incredibly shallow, and that picking Rock for 4 months is only slightly less shallow.
"Skillfull decisionmaking", yes and no.
No, because you cannot reasonably expect the player to know the ins and outs of a class from looking at it in the selection screen (and even to READ what is written on the class selection screen, druids had the line "..but does not perform as good as the more specialized classes" for years there in wow, but still...).
Yes, because you can reasonably expect the player to notice that he has a much easyer time backstabbing stuff and evading it via cloak that someon else has to spend much more time and effort dealing with, or that he is much more durable, and wonder if it will have any drawbacks, after he finds them out you can reasonably expect that he reconsiders if it is something he wants to live with.
Not that he ignores the whole thing and then is constantly unhappy if he gets into a situation the drawbacks can be felt.
I will not agree with the RPS metaphors not because i dont think the have truth in them or merit, but because they apply mosly to pvp, are also suggesting that the choice is somehow sub-par in the grand scale of things (like buffers in tbc), the player WILL get unhappy with it, and the whole dilemma will suddenly dawn on him after years of playing, like a touch of god or something...
In general i was more interested in the difference you see between using the wrong rotation and using the wrong class for the wrong purpose in world where every class is right for something and that something is equally important to the somethings of other classes.
In general i was more interested in the difference you see between using the wrong rotation and using the wrong class for the wrong purpose in world where every class is right for something and that something is equally important to the somethings of other classes.
I was only speaking to using Square Pegs for Square Holes. If a player experiences hardship trying to use the Round Peg in the Square Hole, that's their own damn fault :P
But that also assumes there's always a square hole available.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So if we all agree that classes should not be part of some Rock/Paper/Scissors system, and player skill should be one of the determining factors of balance and pvp (along with gear), wouldn't that leave a lot of people STILL unhappy? Due to that fact that skilled players are few, while unskilled players are many like sheep waiting to be slaughtered? Isn't that why systems like grinding and R/P/S were added in the first place, to appease a larger audiance than just your most skilled players?
Skilled players are not few, they simply are a minority. Besides, it is boring if everyone is pretty much equal.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Comments
Balancing classes in a way that one class is a hard counter to some other class is extremely frustrating for players. Especially when leveling a character to near-max strength usually takes many days. I think such relation between classes actually thwarts individual skill (but may increase the importance of team tactics/strategy) since the player loses automatically against his/her counter class. It is very unsatisfying to know that you couldn't do anything to turn the tide of the battle because of your class choice and you can't change your class anytime soon.
Best place to do the rock-paper-scissors relation is between builds - not between classes.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
DAOC took the approach that each realm was to have its own uniqe classes. So you ended up with some 20+ classes. which was okay considering the game was balanced for mass 100+ v 100+ sieges.
But along with way a small group of hardcore PvPers demanded the game be balanced around 1v1 and 8v8. Its impossible to do with that many classes. DAOC is a good example of what happens when you let the customer dictate to the developer how to balance the game.
the customer is not always right and uaually wrong.
Mythic should've said, "No. we arent doing that. the game was meant for large zergfests, not arena play. you have Guildwars for that."
Zergs. I found it amusing that a game that was designed with the very thing in mind, was villified and looked down on by players. if you ran in a group larger than 8, you were considered to havve no skill. Somehow each group was supposed to know the exact number of opponents in a keep/relic keep and match that. 1 over and it meant no talent and you only won by zergging.
Assassin going to kill you pretty fast before you know you are daed that makes sense and a plate warrior is going to be a little more resistant to damage than most other classes that makes sense and a caster is going to melt your face with hardly any hitpoints that makes sense and a healer is going to suck at everything except healing which makes sense so it depends what you are looking for when you play a game becuase all classes can't be the same. That's why I prefer an open class system.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
RPS was not my point, that concept is so often trashed about these days that it has become just a straw man, i dont think there is anyone left who will imagine a hard counter system in an other than negative way, which is sad.
As for satisfaction, it is debatable, what is more unsatisfying, loosing because of class choice (and thus you may be more succesfull than the guy that killed you in an other area) and/or gear difference (which can be rectified with some effort) or the realisation, that you are just bad, slow, stupid and unable to press the right buttons, what is what you and Axe are suggesting.
You say gear can be exchanged, a build respecced and learned, which ironically these days can take longer than actually leveling a new character, but "new character bad! new gear good!".
Flame on!
How interesting would Rock, Paper, Scissors be if you chose one (and only one) of them when you were 6 years old and every game you played had to use the same choice?
...would it even be considered a game at that point?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To answer your question OP, because they are fun. Sure there are some who will find what you are saying fun, there are others who think they will find what you are saying fun and there are others who know that is not fun. The mayority speaks in gaming and just like in many other areas of life, the mayority decides. Companies, at least big ones, will not make a game that will only be played by a niche especially in this economy.
Where have you been the last....how many years since WoW popularized MMO's? That idea died when MMORPG's where no longer for nerds, dorks, or geeks. Just like a really good single player RPG. Hard to find anymore. So long as it has some 5 year old writing a story for it they slap RPG on action games.
Since when is class choice a immutable thing? Are we really heading for that nasty area where we try to convince each other that players only choose classes because of the aesthetics and not what they are capable of? That when you REALLY LIKE to be a rogue wielding two daggers, you should be able to heal and tank and do ranged magical dps as a rogue with two daggers?
Flame on!
Class choice is immutable in most (all?) MMORPGs.
If there was one which treated class selection like TF2 does, then that would be completely fine (and functionally WOW and RIFT come pretty close to this, locking you into an uber-class, but letting you swap between sub-classes...even within the context of a PVP match or raid.)
But being permanently locked into Rock in R/P/S makes for shitty game, and MMORPGs shouldn't seek to emulate that. But many do, and are worse off for it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Is this a serious question? You're asking why people put in hundreds of hours into a character only to find out that their character is gimped for the sake of being gimped when it could EASILY just be changed? Psh.. can't argue with your logic at all. What seperates you from the other thousands of mages made? You make your own niche in the game by being good at something. That something usually involves combat and since you can't give EVERYONE the same gear for free (because they would be good at combat too), you make people earn it instead. Geez what rock have you been living under?
So if we all agree that classes should not be part of some Rock/Paper/Scissors system, and player skill should be one of the determining factors of balance and pvp (along with gear), wouldn't that leave a lot of people STILL unhappy? Due to that fact that skilled players are few, while unskilled players are many like sheep waiting to be slaughtered? Isn't that why systems like grinding and R/P/S were added in the first place, to appease a larger audiance than just your most skilled players?
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
In all mmos (presumably except those who tie the character to the account, and are classless) you can delete the character and start a new one, not even counting alts, just as you throw away most of your equipment every 4 months or what it is these days, or throw away the wrong type of equipment you gathered and then found out it is not what you need
And again RPS is NOT what i was talking about, if you want to argue against it, find someone who suggests it (like the OP it seems, hmm).
As for shitty gameplay, i personally find the alernative more shitty, tanks running around with twice the hitpoints of nukers doing the same damage, nukers twoshotting people then going around the corner to selfheal to full in 2 casts, classes being only different by rotations or color of their spells, developers and players spending extreme amounts of time talking about and optimizing a system that promises equality in situations which are beyond human capabilities of achieving...
Flame on!
Sorry I thought your comment about choosing a class was sarcastically indicating that you thought it was a part of skillful decisionmaking. Guess I misread into it.
Hopefully you agree that picking Rock for life is incredibly shallow, and that picking Rock for 4 months is only slightly less shallow.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
because it's boring to win all the time.
Balance is what most people are striving to get to.
Balance is important because when the setting is balanced, the ones that wins and beats everyone is the ones that deserved it.
An good example is my experience with a recently released game, SWTOR, When I beat a similiarly geared player, I Know that I am more skilled than the player, yet when I beat a player that is not as geared, the feeling of accomplishment isn't there.
Not only does it look and feel like bullying, its unsatisfying because everyone will only look at your gear not your skills.
And you will also get less QQing on the forums when the game is balanced. Because you will eliminate everyone that keeps posting asking for nerfs.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
"Skillfull decisionmaking", yes and no.
No, because you cannot reasonably expect the player to know the ins and outs of a class from looking at it in the selection screen (and even to READ what is written on the class selection screen, druids had the line "..but does not perform as good as the more specialized classes" for years there in wow, but still...).
Yes, because you can reasonably expect the player to notice that he has a much easyer time backstabbing stuff and evading it via cloak that someon else has to spend much more time and effort dealing with, or that he is much more durable, and wonder if it will have any drawbacks, after he finds them out you can reasonably expect that he reconsiders if it is something he wants to live with.
Not that he ignores the whole thing and then is constantly unhappy if he gets into a situation the drawbacks can be felt.
I will not agree with the RPS metaphors not because i dont think the have truth in them or merit, but because they apply mosly to pvp, are also suggesting that the choice is somehow sub-par in the grand scale of things (like buffers in tbc), the player WILL get unhappy with it, and the whole dilemma will suddenly dawn on him after years of playing, like a touch of god or something...
In general i was more interested in the difference you see between using the wrong rotation and using the wrong class for the wrong purpose in world where every class is right for something and that something is equally important to the somethings of other classes.
Flame on!
I was only speaking to using Square Pegs for Square Holes. If a player experiences hardship trying to use the Round Peg in the Square Hole, that's their own damn fault :P
But that also assumes there's always a square hole available.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Skilled players are not few, they simply are a minority. Besides, it is boring if everyone is pretty much equal.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.