Originally posted by Darklighter1 If it doesn't have 10 million subscribers on Day 1, it's a failure.
Certainly, just because of this. Broken promises, lack of basic features, boring PvE, unresponsive combat, huge class imbalance - nah, none of those factors means jack. Only Day 1 subs matter.
/sarcasm end
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Your point is valid, many publishers see WoWs success and like Bioware believe you need to copy it and you will get that success. However, no one will ever get that success again, it was a fluke, right product, right time, copying WoW just takes some people jaded with WoW into your game and makes them get bored fast and move on to another game. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.
I wholeheartedly agree with the red part. There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen.
What I think can happen though is to aim lower, make a great game, and create a good plan for growth over time.
The problem I see with this is that it would require much smaller budgets than the AAA titles are working with. Smaller budget is going to affect the game in many ways. It's a tough position to be in, especially for a game at launch. MMO players expect a lot from these companies these days. Very few small budget MMO's are able to create successful growth over the years. They are frequently extremely buggy and lack content (even more than people would argue SWTOR fits that description).
These games are extremely complex. There is no genre in gaming that requires the devlopment time and financial investment that these games require.
There are a few companies, new and old, that strike this balance very well in my opinon. An older game that nailed it would be Eve. A newer company that I think does very well in this regard is Trion. I don't particularly like either of their games, but Eve is the obvious example of starting small and growing over time.
I believe Trion aimed for a smaller market all along. They are a very smart company and they understand the MMO market better than most I believe. They invested the right amount of money, didn't go overboard and attempt to get eleventy billion subs to be profitable, but they still provide a very high polish product that they take care of very well. The rate at which they provide content is very good.
I think SWTOR aimed way too high from the beginning, but there are so many factors that I think prevented them from aiming lower. The IP being the biggest factor, but also the style of game they were making (large amounts of VO and cutscenes). The budget for their design is inherently going to be high which means they need a high amount of "success." I don't think these things will kill SWTOR. The game will live on and I can see them providing a level of content that a company like Trion provides over the coming years as well.
They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did.
It's the bit just after the red I think is the most important, Developers need to believe in their product. It is clear that Bioware believed in the VO and cutscenes of SWTOR and tried to copy/paste the bits of WoW they thought were needed for the rest. They did not believe in the MMO part of the game they created, which is where they came unstuck. I agree with you about Trion, whilst they have copied WoW to an extent you can see they believe in their product and seem to get what needs to be improved by all accounts (I am a sandbox player mainly so Rift would not be for me.) I think they have a chance to slowly grow their product again upto EvE like figures which will provide both profit and an income stream to start new developments.
I think every MMO post-WoW is going to make many things similar to WoW, but I disagree that it is just stealing or malicious. I think it's to make the transition from WoW to the new game an easy one. If it's totally foreign, many players will get frustrated and quit. And a large majority of MMO fans play/played WoW for years.
Not really sure where you got that from my post, nothing in it indicates I believe any actions were "stealing" or "malicious"
You're right I didn't from your post. I was making a general comment from other posts I have read. Apologies.
The nature of a Themepark. Not a design flaw but desiggn style. People do like it.
Did you read what I wrote? SWTOR is a hell of lot linear then WoW EVER was. Sure they both have quests that lead youf to one place or another but in WoW if I am leveling up in the 1000 needles and I can just stop and go to the badlands or highlands. In SWTOR your not allowed to that because the content is so gates by the ciche personal story.
When WoW launched, no one was thinking about hurry up and get to endgame or leveling alts. It took a long time. The fact that people were capping SWTOR 3 weeks into Launch had nothing to do with WoW.
Wow's leveling was also lot slower, it had things to do then just pve or pvp and didn't lead you around by the hand. Also Altholics are in every game, they are always looking to level alts.
Have you even thought about the flip side? When I started WoW, I played with my brother, he started a Nelf Hunter and I started a Human Paladin. We couldn't play together until levl 20. Sorry, this is not a problem to me.
You could have walked... like oh.. 100,000s of people did... You just want everything "easy." When everything is easy it gets boring. I knew a number of people took pride in there run from the wetlands to ironforge, instead of just complaining that they couldn't just port there.
EVE is not a theme park, it's success is measure differently. The number of accounts in EVE far exceed the number of players. Because of PLEX and some who spend a great deal of money combined with the fact that EVE has the biggest currency sink in all of MMOs, it's a different animal nad I am not sure why we are comparing it to WoW.
Because he said "MMOs" no just themepak MMOs.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Actually I think the problem is the same one we have in all entertainment venues. Big money comes in and tries to assert formulaic recipes for success.
People blame WOW too much. Yes it could be a factor, but the other gaming genres have also stagnated. It's more than just WOW.
The real problem is there are no COMPLETE games out there,so people decide to choose between graphics or combat or player customization.Nobody choooses a game based on questing and if they choose based on cost aka GW that is a poor choice unless you have no money then i guess you really had no choice.
Ok so take SWTOR a game with a very poor combat structure,that leaves graphics,are they that good?Nope only average EQ2 for example has very nice lighting and textures that give metal and cloth like features.Wow can't compete versus any game in the graphics area but it does have the detail inside character and combat albeit really nothing more than a EQ/EQ2 copy like.
I found the most detailed complex customization and combat structure inside of FFXi,best looking inside of EQ2,so that leaves SWTOR looking in from the outside.MANY games get early hype just becuase they are new and or advertised everywhere on the net including here,example Rift.
trying to come to grips with an advertised or newish game soon wears off leaving so many unhappy after a few months of game play,this is why people need to start using "better cirteria" when choosing their games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The nature of a Themepark. Not a design flaw but desiggn style. People do like it.
Did you read what I wrote? SWTOR is a hell of lot linear then WoW EVER was. Sure they both have quests that lead youf to one place or another but in WoW if I am leveling up in the 1000 needles and I can just stop and go to the badlands or highlands. In SWTOR your not allowed to that because the content is so gates by the ciche personal story.
When WoW launched, no one was thinking about hurry up and get to endgame or leveling alts. It took a long time. The fact that people were capping SWTOR 3 weeks into Launch had nothing to do with WoW.
Wow's leveling was also lot slower, it had things to do then just pve or pvp and didn't lead you around by the hand. Also Altholics are in every game, they are always looking to level alts.
Have you even thought about the flip side? When I started WoW, I played with my brother, he started a Nelf Hunter and I started a Human Paladin. We couldn't play together until levl 20. Sorry, this is not a problem to me.
You could have walked... like oh.. 100,000s of people did... You just want everything "easy." When everything is easy it gets boring. I knew a number of people took pride in there run from the wetlands to ironforge, instead of just complaining that they couldn't just port there.
EVE is not a theme park, it's success is measure differently. The number of accounts in EVE far exceed the number of players. Because of PLEX and some who spend a great deal of money combined with the fact that EVE has the biggest currency sink in all of MMOs, it's a different animal nad I am not sure why we are comparing it to WoW.
Because he said "MMOs" no just themepak MMOs.
I was more taking isse with OP, not so much your responses.
Originally posted by dubyahite WoW players are very very very picky about the features in an MMO they might try out. They frequently get upset if the game doesn't have specific features from WoW that they love. They often go back to wow when that game doesn't provide them the "WoW experience."
I'm a former WoW player. Overall I have very good memories about WoW. Yet I'm not looking for WoW experience, I experienced it enough. Now I want to play a different kind of MMO.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I don't think it's the publishers that are the great evil that people make them out to be. Don't get me wrong, there are quite a few of them I dislike. Like it or not, they are companies out to make money, they are not your friend. The sooner this is realized, the less hurt people will be over their actions. However, it's the paying customers that dictate how and where the market moves. Most of the consumers buy these games based on hype and pretty cgi intro movies alone. They now sell based on clever advertising and marketing, not the actual product. We as consumers need to shift the direction of it by making informed decisions on what we buy. If we stop supporting lackluster projects, they will stop making them.
Developers just need to realize they will never be the next WoW. They may be the next EQ, but not WoW. It was an anomly, the perfect storm. If it's ever replicated it will be completely on accident. The people that flooded the market with WoW are usually to blame for the current state of MMO's. What is realized after all these games gets released, is that they don't like ANY of them. It's not the game, or even the developers, that's to blame. It's the fact that all these people haven't yet realized that they don't like MMORPG's, just WoW.
1. Too many developers try to copy WoW's success. They all copy one another because they saw what worked for Wow, now everyone has to do the same thing.
2. Too many publisher get in the way of developement. Perfect example of this is EA. They are more concerned with deadlines and quartley earnings than a polished fun game.
3. Lack of accountability for mistakes. When a mmo fails the excuses begin to pour out or they are still in denial that their game is bad.
4. Afraid to innovate because they are afraid too different is no good for sales.
5. Most developers are just way out of touch with what the fanbase craves for.
The industry iitself has taken the wrong approach to mmo gaming as a whole. They look at it from a business perspective which is why they fail alot. There is this expression "Winning solves everything". In order to win you must have a good product on the field well thats where most companies fail. They never know if their product is good enough or not. That is why companies like Blizzard and ArenaNet never fail. They know that by making a great game the making money part will take care of itself. They other devs are just lost and clueless I'm afraid.
I liked WoW. I won't bash it. It wasn't a bad game. Not even a bad one to copy. But WoW was done. It's been played. Everyone's tired of it.
Compare Rift to SWTOR. Both clones, both are slammed for non originality but one is recognized for a quality product in spite of that and the other is recognized as a POS cash grab. (public perception, not mine. I never played SWTOR)
BTW, I play Rift and I don't think its an example of what's wrong. I think it's an example of what's right. The fact that we need a new style of MMO has nothing to do with being a quality product.
i played rift, had a couple of max chars, problem with rift is the endgame content does not draw u in, zones are too small imo, combat was the usual same old stuff it gets kinda of old after xx number of dungeon runs or pvping grind and the daily why make it such a chore really arent games supposed to be fun, instead they make us work for them..., well i would pick work grind and earn more $$ than virtual grind anytime.
what i think we need is something new and refreshing not the same old stuff that is being done daily....
This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW.
It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games.
You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether.
Very true. My point was that WoW causes good games to become bad games. Or shut down entirely. Money talks ....and everyone wants WoW size money.
Haha, what? WoW isn't a sentient being, it has no control over any person... It is the players not the game. If the crowds had flocked to EQII instead of WoW would you be complaining about that game instead? These threads are freaking old and done... Move on...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
This ignores the fact that the MMO market was a fraction of what it became because of WoW.
It is common wisdome that WoW brought in a large number of players to the MMO space that otherwise were not interested in playing these games.
You may not consider that a good thing, but the fact is that money talks, and wow players have spent a lot of money altogether.
Very true. My point was that WoW causes good games to become bad games. Or shut down entirely. Money talks ....and everyone wants WoW size money.
Haha, what? WoW isn't a sentient being, it has no control over any person... It is the players not the game. If the crowds had flocked to EQII instead of WoW would you be complaining about that game instead? These threads are freaking old and done... Move on...
Did you even read my post? I'm guessing you did not.
No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like Bioware sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$. Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in". Companies like Bioware have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.
You just agreed with me without even realizing it.
Not really. Blizzard isnt the problem, companies like Bioware are the problem.
Neither is the problem.
It's been about eight years of the same scenario repeating itself, but the mainstream MMO gamer puts more weight behind what he is hoping for than what history has actually proven. Either they do not learn at all or they havel earned but the fear of being left out or left behind is so great that they're constantly preordering and buying to make sure they are there on day one... or maybe just the shiny item in the box is really all that's needed for them to dismiss nearly a decade of history that proves that any sane or logical person would simply not buy an MMO until at least the third month after release. Whatever the case, MMOs' fail because their target audience simply doesn't learn.
It's been about five years now of consistent big numbers at release and half (or even less) still playing after the first month. I don't think any consumer base has been as reliably gullible as the mainstream MMO gamer. NA/EU MMO devs know they can bank on that group buying the box. The best thing that the mainstrwam MMO gamer can do to reduce the chance of an MMO releasing as a fail-bound piece of crap is to STOP BUYING THE BOX.
Once the devs know they aren't getting that front-loaded return MMO gamers will see a fast change to better, more polished releases because on release day they still need to get you to want to pay (like every other frikken product on the planet). Raking in retail cash to buy time won't be an option anymore and first impressions will be everything.
MMOs fail because their audience not only allows it but rewards it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like Bioware sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$. Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in". Companies like Bioware have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.
^^Pretty much this^^
We're sick of WoW, that's why we don't play it anymore. Stop with the poorly done WoW clones.
The notion of WoW being the worst thing that happened to MMO industry is laughable.
It's like saying Windows was the worst thing that happened to IT industry. Windows is by no means perfect but if we're talking about desktop market, you need to examine the competition first to understand how horribly it falls short of expectations of a Windows user. For example, I have some 15 years of IT experience, I know Linux well enough, I can write complex scripts in bash and python. But on my desktop day-to-day I use Windows because Linux, unfortunately, doesn't cut it. I mean sure it works, it supports almost any hardware these days, there's a lot of software for it... but it irritates you with all sorts of minor annoyances and inconveniences until you /sigh and go back to Windows where you can simply work instead of fixing something every 5 minutes.
And that's where we go back to WoW clones. They fail because they're unfinished, because they're annoying, because their developers can never do anything right. Unlike Linux, they aren't even free (since we're talking about sub-based games here) which actually makes them twice as annoying.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
If SWTOR was realsed as it is now on November 23, 2004 it would be SWTOR we would all be playing and not WOW. WoW is currently living off of the fumes of character lockin and nostalgia. Games today are much better than WoW was then. Even if a game matched WoW feature for feature today it couldn't beat WoW because of character lockin and nostalgia. MMO's require so much time and so much effort that a lateral feature set is simply "More of the same, without my favorite character and all of the memories attached". It won't work and can't work. MMO players are simply bored and too good at the genre to stay for very long any more.
The community as an entity has evolved. They have gotten better; they will crush content in days that would have laster months a couple of years ago. They have also gotten wiser. We now know when developers are just tweaking the numbers to stretch thin content out. We won't accept this type of "grindy" content and will simply move on.
The hardcore vets that are looking for that 1999 EQ flashback with high populations are in for disappointment, it simply won't and really can't ever happen like that agian. The community simply will not play games that cause too much "pain". That gameplay can only survive in an environement where there is very little choice.
Like it or hate GW2 is at least doing the right thing philosphically, they are forging ahead with new types of gameplay. They may fail because of implementation or feature sets but they have the best chance at forging new paths in the genre. I personally think the sandboxes (assming they can move away from the hardcore PvP aspects) have the advantage. They will need to get really good at mindcraft/diablo style random content generation but I think thats where the future lies.
No whats wrong with MMO's is companies like Bioware sucking at the teets of Blizzard in hopes of making that almighty $$$. Instead of focusing on good games, they release rehashed failed WoW clones trying to "cash in". Companies like Bioware have no respect for the genre and the players that inhabit them instead they see that Blizzard has the GDP of a European country and get all f**king greedy.
You just agreed with me without even realizing it.
Not really. Blizzard isnt the problem, companies like Bioware are the problem.
Neither is the problem.
It's been about eight years of the same scenario repeating itself, but the mainstream MMO gamer puts more weight behind what he is hoping for than what history has actually proven. Either they do not learn at all or they havel earned but the fear of being left out or left behind is so great that they're constantly preordering and buying to make sure they are there on day one... or maybe just the shiny item in the box is really all that's needed for them to dismiss nearly a decade of history that proves that any sane or logical person would simply not buy an MMO until at least the third month after release. Whatever the case, MMOs' fail because their target audience simply doesn't learn.
It's been about five years now of consistent big numbers at release and half (or even less) still playing after the first month. I don't think any consumer base has been as reliably gullible as the mainstream MMO gamer. NA/EU MMO devs know they can bank on that group buying the box. The best thing that the mainstrwam MMO gamer can do to reduce the chance of an MMO releasing as a fail-bound piece of crap is to STOP BUYING THE BOX.
Once the devs know they aren't getting that front-loaded return MMO gamers will see a fast change to better, more polished releases because on release day they still need to get you to want to pay (like every other frikken product on the planet). Raking in retail cash to buy time won't be an option anymore and first impressions will be everything.
MMOs fail because their audience not only allows it but rewards it.
The red part buddy , if EVERYONE waited 3 months then all launches would fail. There would be no more MMO's made if no one is buying boxes on day one.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
Originally posted by vesuvias If SWTOR was realsed as it is now on November 23, 2004 it would be SWTOR we would all be playing and not WOW.
You wish. EQ2 was released in 2004 and somehow people still play WoW, not EQ2. Will you haters ever realize that people play WoW because it's a good game, not because it was popular in 2005?
Originally posted by vesuvias Even if a game matched WoW feature for feature today
Could you please name one game that does? Because if humans were blue and 10 feet tall, they would be the Na'vi.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Simple answers, complex questions. Why don't they go together?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
. Publishers need to aim lower and make a product they believe in and not just copy/paste WoW in the deluded belief they can replicate success. Make a different game and you might take some jaded WoW players and give them something new and novel that grabs their interest long term.
I wholeheartedly agree with the red part. There is no room for a company to be aiming for WoW levels of success. It's just not going to happen.
They will maintain a relatively healthy population as well, but if they were shooting for WoW-like numbers then that is probably the biggest mistake they could make. I love the game, but even I know there just isn't going to be a game that can pull in the subs like WoW did.
You two hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I was getting at. The rest of you ....not so much.
Hello Investors. Today we're going to ask you to put $100-300 million of "your" money into "our" MMORPG.
Now why might you do this? Well my friends, one word my friends, 'profit'. Because in the end isn't that what its' really all about?
Of course it is.
Now, our MMORPG is revolutionary in its design. Rather than copy the tried and true techniques made popular by Blizzard's World of Warcraft title, (you know, billions and billions served) we're so sure players are tired of that design that we're going to throw most of what they do out and replace it with features that we 'know' players really want. (because we're just good like that and we read forums like MMORPG all the time)
Now we realize that in the past 8 years, almost every profitable MMORPG made has largely copied the WOW formula, but trust us here, there's no way our new title can fail, our 'vision' is pure and we 'know' it will be the next big thing.
So, now that we've firmly put to rest your fears and doubts, and you've become 'fan-atics' of our new vision, will you please step over to the table on the right and sign your names to the checks we've already written for you.
BTW, I forgot to mention, our new vision will not result anywhere near the profitability of WOW, but that's OK right, you'll be happy making a small, sensible profit in order to let us bring our great new MMO to the market right, because that's just the sort of big hearted folks I know you to be.
Oh, yes, they are made out to my personal bank account, but don't worry, its all just 'company' money in the end, you have nothing to fear.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually I think the problem is the same one we have in all entertainment venues. Big money comes in and tries to assert formulaic recipes for success.
This right here.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Originally posted by Kyleran BTW, I forgot to mention, our new vision will not result anywhere near the profitability of WOW
Wait, do you mean to tell us that some WoW clone actually was somewhere near the profitability of WOW? If you can't answer "yes" to this question AND prove it, you whole post was a waste of time.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
The real problem is there are no COMPLETE games out there,so people decide to choose between graphics or combat or player customization.Nobody choooses a game based on questing and if they choose based on cost aka GW that is a poor choice unless you have no money then i guess you really had no choice.
Ok so take SWTOR a game with a very poor combat structure,that leaves graphics,are they that good?Nope only average EQ2 for example has very nice lighting and textures that give metal and cloth like features.Wow can't compete versus any game in the graphics area but it does have the detail inside character and combat albeit really nothing more than a EQ/EQ2 copy like.
I found the most detailed complex customization and combat structure inside of FFXi,best looking inside of EQ2,so that leaves SWTOR looking in from the outside.MANY games get early hype just becuase they are new and or advertised everywhere on the net including here,example Rift.
trying to come to grips with an advertised or newish game soon wears off leaving so many unhappy after a few months of game play,this is why people need to start using "better cirteria" when choosing their games.
If no one chose a game based on questing than SWTOR would have 0 players. Questing, voice overs, cut scenes, great sound, companions, small groups and PvP. These and especially QUESTING, and Story, these are the reasons people love SWTOR
Comments
/sarcasm end
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
You're right I didn't from your post. I was making a general comment from other posts I have read. Apologies.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Actually I think the problem is the same one we have in all entertainment venues. Big money comes in and tries to assert formulaic recipes for success.
People blame WOW too much. Yes it could be a factor, but the other gaming genres have also stagnated. It's more than just WOW.
What happend to MMOs can be looked at in parallel to what has happened to music with MTV.
MTV = WoW
The real problem is there are no COMPLETE games out there,so people decide to choose between graphics or combat or player customization.Nobody choooses a game based on questing and if they choose based on cost aka GW that is a poor choice unless you have no money then i guess you really had no choice.
Ok so take SWTOR a game with a very poor combat structure,that leaves graphics,are they that good?Nope only average EQ2 for example has very nice lighting and textures that give metal and cloth like features.Wow can't compete versus any game in the graphics area but it does have the detail inside character and combat albeit really nothing more than a EQ/EQ2 copy like.
I found the most detailed complex customization and combat structure inside of FFXi,best looking inside of EQ2,so that leaves SWTOR looking in from the outside.MANY games get early hype just becuase they are new and or advertised everywhere on the net including here,example Rift.
trying to come to grips with an advertised or newish game soon wears off leaving so many unhappy after a few months of game play,this is why people need to start using "better cirteria" when choosing their games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I was more taking isse with OP, not so much your responses.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I don't think it's the publishers that are the great evil that people make them out to be. Don't get me wrong, there are quite a few of them I dislike. Like it or not, they are companies out to make money, they are not your friend. The sooner this is realized, the less hurt people will be over their actions. However, it's the paying customers that dictate how and where the market moves. Most of the consumers buy these games based on hype and pretty cgi intro movies alone. They now sell based on clever advertising and marketing, not the actual product. We as consumers need to shift the direction of it by making informed decisions on what we buy. If we stop supporting lackluster projects, they will stop making them.
Developers just need to realize they will never be the next WoW. They may be the next EQ, but not WoW. It was an anomly, the perfect storm. If it's ever replicated it will be completely on accident. The people that flooded the market with WoW are usually to blame for the current state of MMO's. What is realized after all these games gets released, is that they don't like ANY of them. It's not the game, or even the developers, that's to blame. It's the fact that all these people haven't yet realized that they don't like MMORPG's, just WoW.
1. Too many developers try to copy WoW's success. They all copy one another because they saw what worked for Wow, now everyone has to do the same thing.
2. Too many publisher get in the way of developement. Perfect example of this is EA. They are more concerned with deadlines and quartley earnings than a polished fun game.
3. Lack of accountability for mistakes. When a mmo fails the excuses begin to pour out or they are still in denial that their game is bad.
4. Afraid to innovate because they are afraid too different is no good for sales.
5. Most developers are just way out of touch with what the fanbase craves for.
The industry iitself has taken the wrong approach to mmo gaming as a whole. They look at it from a business perspective which is why they fail alot. There is this expression "Winning solves everything". In order to win you must have a good product on the field well thats where most companies fail. They never know if their product is good enough or not. That is why companies like Blizzard and ArenaNet never fail. They know that by making a great game the making money part will take care of itself. They other devs are just lost and clueless I'm afraid.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
i played rift, had a couple of max chars, problem with rift is the endgame content does not draw u in, zones are too small imo, combat was the usual same old stuff it gets kinda of old after xx number of dungeon runs or pvping grind and the daily why make it such a chore really arent games supposed to be fun, instead they make us work for them..., well i would pick work grind and earn more $$ than virtual grind anytime.
what i think we need is something new and refreshing not the same old stuff that is being done daily....
just my 2 cents
Haha, what? WoW isn't a sentient being, it has no control over any person... It is the players not the game. If the crowds had flocked to EQII instead of WoW would you be complaining about that game instead? These threads are freaking old and done... Move on...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Did you even read my post? I'm guessing you did not.
Neither is the problem.
It's been about eight years of the same scenario repeating itself, but the mainstream MMO gamer puts more weight behind what he is hoping for than what history has actually proven. Either they do not learn at all or they havel earned but the fear of being left out or left behind is so great that they're constantly preordering and buying to make sure they are there on day one... or maybe just the shiny item in the box is really all that's needed for them to dismiss nearly a decade of history that proves that any sane or logical person would simply not buy an MMO until at least the third month after release. Whatever the case, MMOs' fail because their target audience simply doesn't learn.
It's been about five years now of consistent big numbers at release and half (or even less) still playing after the first month. I don't think any consumer base has been as reliably gullible as the mainstream MMO gamer. NA/EU MMO devs know they can bank on that group buying the box. The best thing that the mainstrwam MMO gamer can do to reduce the chance of an MMO releasing as a fail-bound piece of crap is to STOP BUYING THE BOX.
Once the devs know they aren't getting that front-loaded return MMO gamers will see a fast change to better, more polished releases because on release day they still need to get you to want to pay (like every other frikken product on the planet). Raking in retail cash to buy time won't be an option anymore and first impressions will be everything.
MMOs fail because their audience not only allows it but rewards it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
^^Pretty much this^^
We're sick of WoW, that's why we don't play it anymore. Stop with the poorly done WoW clones.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
The notion of WoW being the worst thing that happened to MMO industry is laughable.
It's like saying Windows was the worst thing that happened to IT industry. Windows is by no means perfect but if we're talking about desktop market, you need to examine the competition first to understand how horribly it falls short of expectations of a Windows user. For example, I have some 15 years of IT experience, I know Linux well enough, I can write complex scripts in bash and python. But on my desktop day-to-day I use Windows because Linux, unfortunately, doesn't cut it. I mean sure it works, it supports almost any hardware these days, there's a lot of software for it... but it irritates you with all sorts of minor annoyances and inconveniences until you /sigh and go back to Windows where you can simply work instead of fixing something every 5 minutes.
And that's where we go back to WoW clones. They fail because they're unfinished, because they're annoying, because their developers can never do anything right. Unlike Linux, they aren't even free (since we're talking about sub-based games here) which actually makes them twice as annoying.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
If SWTOR was realsed as it is now on November 23, 2004 it would be SWTOR we would all be playing and not WOW. WoW is currently living off of the fumes of character lockin and nostalgia. Games today are much better than WoW was then. Even if a game matched WoW feature for feature today it couldn't beat WoW because of character lockin and nostalgia. MMO's require so much time and so much effort that a lateral feature set is simply "More of the same, without my favorite character and all of the memories attached". It won't work and can't work. MMO players are simply bored and too good at the genre to stay for very long any more.
The community as an entity has evolved. They have gotten better; they will crush content in days that would have laster months a couple of years ago. They have also gotten wiser. We now know when developers are just tweaking the numbers to stretch thin content out. We won't accept this type of "grindy" content and will simply move on.
The hardcore vets that are looking for that 1999 EQ flashback with high populations are in for disappointment, it simply won't and really can't ever happen like that agian. The community simply will not play games that cause too much "pain". That gameplay can only survive in an environement where there is very little choice.
Like it or hate GW2 is at least doing the right thing philosphically, they are forging ahead with new types of gameplay. They may fail because of implementation or feature sets but they have the best chance at forging new paths in the genre. I personally think the sandboxes (assming they can move away from the hardcore PvP aspects) have the advantage. They will need to get really good at mindcraft/diablo style random content generation but I think thats where the future lies.
The red part buddy , if EVERYONE waited 3 months then all launches would fail. There would be no more MMO's made if no one is buying boxes on day one.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
Could you please name one game that does? Because if humans were blue and 10 feet tall, they would be the Na'vi.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Simple answers, complex questions. Why don't they go together?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Hello Investors. Today we're going to ask you to put $100-300 million of "your" money into "our" MMORPG.
Now why might you do this? Well my friends, one word my friends, 'profit'. Because in the end isn't that what its' really all about?
Of course it is.
Now, our MMORPG is revolutionary in its design. Rather than copy the tried and true techniques made popular by Blizzard's World of Warcraft title, (you know, billions and billions served) we're so sure players are tired of that design that we're going to throw most of what they do out and replace it with features that we 'know' players really want. (because we're just good like that and we read forums like MMORPG all the time)
Now we realize that in the past 8 years, almost every profitable MMORPG made has largely copied the WOW formula, but trust us here, there's no way our new title can fail, our 'vision' is pure and we 'know' it will be the next big thing.
So, now that we've firmly put to rest your fears and doubts, and you've become 'fan-atics' of our new vision, will you please step over to the table on the right and sign your names to the checks we've already written for you.
BTW, I forgot to mention, our new vision will not result anywhere near the profitability of WOW, but that's OK right, you'll be happy making a small, sensible profit in order to let us bring our great new MMO to the market right, because that's just the sort of big hearted folks I know you to be.
Oh, yes, they are made out to my personal bank account, but don't worry, its all just 'company' money in the end, you have nothing to fear.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This right here.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
If no one chose a game based on questing than SWTOR would have 0 players. Questing, voice overs, cut scenes, great sound, companions, small groups and PvP. These and especially QUESTING, and Story, these are the reasons people love SWTOR
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).