I saw rant after rant that Aion is P2W. If I look over what they have to offer, there is not a single P2W item there from what I can tell. Can one of you ranters point out which actual items are P2W?
None. People just enjoy ranting. Ignore them and they might go away (I doubt it but still).
I'm just so frustrated by people who blindly hate on free to play/hybrid games and smuggly look down their noses at those freeloaders while they pay their glorious subscription. The subscription doesn't make the game any significantly better, it's the company that develops the game.
People don't blindly hate on P2W games. You just choose to ignore the game mechanic modifications that players can purchase through the cash shop.
P2W games by design are inferior to subscription based games. All aspects are designed around the idea that they may be monetized in the future. Developers are building their game so players can " Buy Fun ".
Hardly. Most games out there that are free to play cost so little to play if you play it smart. The nicest part is that you essentially do one-time purchases of content. Pay to win...haha. That is just ignorance to think, considering people that pay to get to max level quicker is hardly something that would be considered winning.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Just checked comments now, so I apologize for the delay. Am currently visiting family in a different country, so I'm using a different connection and a netbook.
The picture with the ships is from a browser based MMO called Kultan, and may not be completely representative of the game, in my limited experience (My travel laptop is dreadfully slow and crashes when I try to run some games, such as Kultan. Not the game's fault, but the netbook's age showing).
Regarding the pay-to-win arguments mentioned here, I reference it when I talk about most games having some cash shop items that don't significantly impact and create a long-term advantage. While one with a lot of money could theoretically buy XP multipliers and strength buffs from start to finish, it's not exactly economically viable. As for games that tend to force players to buy items to get ahead at higher levels, I apologize for not bringing it up, as I personally am the type that chooses not to spend money and simply picks a different game when I get pushed to spend to alleviate grind... in other words, it didn't cross my mind.
Lastly, Sinjin is correct in saying that F2P games are not free if you consider plugs or cash shop mentions. You do, however, get to mitigate monetary usage depending on your how long and how often you play an individual MMO.
A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly.
We see free games made inconvenient by design to sell items that are "only for convenience". Really I have yet to come across a free game that approaches the quality of subscription games. I play LotRO and Conan on occasion but in both combat is clunky and travel is a pain in the arse. If I am going to pick up a game and play for a bit, I don't want to spend 10 minutes just getting somewhere to do something. And I think those 2 are in the upper eschelon of quality when it comes to free games. While the price of a game may be free, my time is not. That is why there is a barrier for me to try a new free game, I don't want to waste my time downloading and playing something only to find out the game actually doesn't get any better as you progress. There are more than enough new games that come out that are actually fun, and I don't mind paying for them.
There are certain stigma's that have gotten associated with Free-To-Play games that I think need to be dismissed, but there are also a few other valid points that need to be brought up.
First, it is very possible to make a nice polished game and have it be F2P. The reason people get turned off is unfortunately we have had a TON of just absolute garbage F2P games released that are ruining the name F2P.
Second, cash shops if done right are a great addition to some games, and provide that income for the developers to continue improving and supporting their games. As long as the items don't provide in game advantages then it's a non-issue since it doesn't affect other players.
With those two out of the way though, I have to say that I strongly feel like the F2P model is destroying the online community. If you spend money on the box and invest in 3, 6, 12 months, or even longer you are commiting yourself to a game, and also to your character and account. Any game that has a trial 1-20 or F2P just read the general chat, it's ridiculous. One of the posters in this thread even brought up what I mean. If you are playing 9 F2P games at a time you aren't committed to any of them, what do you care if you are a ninja looter, or a royal ass to everyone? Ruined your reputation? No problem, just create another account, it's free. Pretty sure you aren't going to continue playing the game? Let everyone in general chat know how much their life sucks because they are playing that game. What does it matter, you have 8 other games to fall back on. Want to try botting or hacking but don't want to lose your account? No problem, if you get banned you can just make another and it's free! It's not like you invested 3 years into it and don't want to lose it. You can say whatever you want and do whatever you want because there is zero comittment to that character or even game.
It's already bad enough with B2P games, but to use the Penny Acade theory it takes the whole "Normal person + annonymity + audience = Total !@#$wad"; to a whole new level. F2P games have their own niche right now, and I like that, but it will be a sad, cold day when they replace B2P entirely.
Ad-block/Anti-banner no ads on Hotmail. Also the few times I had a question about my email service it was answered pretty quick even if it wasn't live(instantly answered I'm guessing you mean).
I've only played EQ, EVE Online, and WoW so i need and will try some F2P ones. But I am on the side that some F2P are just for making money a lot of the ones I've seen in the past advertised the parts you'd have to pay for just as much or more as the free side.
My view on this is kind of like my view on tipping. I don't believe in it. It's much easier I think to have a sub fee/include waiter's wage into meal than to have a F2P unless you're trying to make money as fast as possible. Most times it seems like the only people hurt are the consumer/customer and the game/waiter. And if people think the sub is too high they just stop paying.
But it's no surprise if you think about it. F2P is the normal step with more competition among good games and the lazy people thinking it's a market where they can make a quick buck with a bad game. Atm I think eventually P2P will make a comeback at least a small one with quality games. Then F2P will mostly be gone or be a sub market or be a combination with P2P.
The hate for F2P come from players who want something for nothing. They come to F2P expecting to play for 10 year or more and not spend a cent. They are infuriated that those that do spend money get something that they do not, or is difficult for them to get. They expect the devs not to be paid, and still support the game with fixes and content updates. If the game must be paid for, it shall not affect them or their game play directly or indirectly. They shall not compete against Pay Shop Items, Content shall not be limited by pay shop, nothing they want or can be used against them shall be Pay Shop.
I don’t mean to offend anyone, but by only tolerating Vanity Items to be sold, they are saying “Let those ---- & ---- pay for our hardcore PvP / PvE game play, we will not pay.” By this I ONLY mean that opponents to F2P want some outside group that they don’t respect to pay for their game play.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
That's a pretty reaching opinion if you're saying that being against F2P games selling items that make leveling faster or gear is the same as not thinking that the devs shouldn't be paid in anyway.
To be honest I got a big deal of trouble with F2P as they are.
Heres an example - I used to be big fan of LOTRO until it finally got old and i moved on. Some time later few expansions were released and i decided it`s a good time for my old captain to ride for all the free peoples once again, but i soon discovered game shifted to F2P model. Well, ok I thought, and quickly purchased my regular subscription, now called premium, like a good old customer of turbine`s and loged in. To my great disdain i could not play it, as i soon found out. Even as a "subscriber" my every moment in middle earth was filled with annoying ADs: "Buy stat potions, launcher window said. Buy some rate scrolls, tool-tip poped out." And I must say i was annoyed greatly, every damn loading screen with another commercial push I came across (and that was EVERY loading screen) botched my LOTRO experience even more. It was so frustrateing in the end, my favorite MMO turned into common "TV shop show", i never even looked back her way.
My bottom line - f2p model does VERY bad things to developers and publishers both. They will exist, of course, as they turn nice profits on that "pay anything to win" minority, and because of this minority service quality priorities shift greatly, and that is a worst part of it.
To be honest I got a big deal of trouble with F2P as they are.
Heres an example - I used to be big fan of LOTRO until it finally got old and i moved on. Some time later few expansions were released and i decided it`s a good time for my old captain to ride for all the free peoples once again, but i soon discovered game shifted to F2P model. Well, ok I thought, and quickly purchased my regular subscription, now called premium, like a good old customer of turbine`s and loged in. To my great disdain i could not play it, as i soon found out. Even as a "subscriber" my every moment in middle earth was filled with annoying ADs: "Buy stat potions, launcher window said. Buy some rate scrolls, tool-tip poped out." And I must say i was annoyed greatly, every damn loading screen with another commercial push I came across (and that was EVERY loading screen) botched my LOTRO experience even more. It was so frustrateing in the end, my favorite MMO turned into common "TV shop show", i never even looked back her way.
My bottom line - f2p model does VERY bad things to developers and publishers both. They will exist, of course, as they turn nice profits on that "pay anything to win" minority, and because of this minority service quality priorities shift greatly, and that is a worst part of it.
Odd, I don't get hit with that many ads. Although I am a lifetime subscriber, so maybe that accounts for the difference.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
You Guys crying over F2P being bad is sickning, i will just give one example of one game that while not being mmorpg entirely for me has the best F2P system i know. League of Legends is free you just spend money if you want to buy or champions or skins and practically nothing more and its a very successfull game. of course there are some F2P who have ads, or piss you off constantly for you to spend money on their cash shop and of course there are some who actually have items who grant advantages that disrupt the fairness of the game, but like people you have bad people and good people, you have good food bad food, you have bad weather good weather and so on, just because you didnt like one F2P game doesnt mean the entire universe of F2P games are the same open you narrow minds a little.
To be honest I got a big deal of trouble with F2P as they are.
Heres an example - I used to be big fan of LOTRO until it finally got old and i moved on. Some time later few expansions were released and i decided it`s a good time for my old captain to ride for all the free peoples once again, but i soon discovered game shifted to F2P model. Well, ok I thought, and quickly purchased my regular subscription, now called premium, like a good old customer of turbine`s and loged in. To my great disdain i could not play it, as i soon found out. Even as a "subscriber" my every moment in middle earth was filled with annoying ADs: "Buy stat potions, launcher window said. Buy some rate scrolls, tool-tip poped out." And I must say i was annoyed greatly, every damn loading screen with another commercial push I came across (and that was EVERY loading screen) botched my LOTRO experience even more. It was so frustrateing in the end, my favorite MMO turned into common "TV shop show", i never even looked back her way.
My bottom line - f2p model does VERY bad things to developers and publishers both. They will exist, of course, as they turn nice profits on that "pay anything to win" minority, and because of this minority service quality priorities shift greatly, and that is a worst part of it.
Odd, I don't get hit with that many ads. Although I am a lifetime subscriber, so maybe that accounts for the difference.
If you want fastest progress, the most powerful character possible and to be able to do everything you will have to use a lot of TP in Lotro even if you pay the monthly fee(premium) or have lifetime subscription. If you are a min maxer and a powergamer. If you have a different playstyle you may not think its a problem or even recognize it. But others cetainly do...
And adds will pop up that tells you to "enhance your character" or to "buy boosts and wreck havoc" or to help you level faster, grind faction faster and so on.
The author of this article massively understates the prevalence of pay-to-win in today's "F2P" MMO's, so much so that I wonder if he is doing it deliberately or is simply inexperienced and misinformed. I have played 20+ major "F2P" games and every single one of them, without exception, had P2W/pay-for-advantage aspects to the cash shop. I very much doubt if an exception even exists.
The majority of "F2P" games have items in the cash shop that give advantage in PvE, PvP, or both - advantages that it is not possible for a free player to get. The handful that allow free players to also acquire cash shop items make sure that there are stiff punishments in place to discourage this.
I found the article to be kind of missing the point in some aspects (particularly why some Sub-based MMOs failed, which I'll get to) and seemed to turn a sort of blind eye to others.
First, the bit about MMOs with subs failing too much and so "something had to change". No it didn't. What has to change is this misplaced idea that a P2P MMO that fails, does so because of its payment model. That argument is a complete myth. A fabrication intended to damn subscriptions, and usually stated in favor of F2P/Cash Shops.
P2P MMOs fail for the same reason any other product does: it's not a good enough product to enough people, it fails to bring in enough revenue, and so it goes under. Just like in any other industry, if you don't put out a product enough people want, you're not going to be successful. That's all there is to it.
Look back over every P2P MMO that has been taken offline. Every single one of them had very specific gameplay-related issues, sometimes several of them, that contributed to them failing. Meanwhile those that are well-enough made to attract and keep a healthier number of players continue to do fine. Rift is one of the most recent examples of a sub-based MMO that is doing just fine. TOR is doing fine as a sub-based MMO. FFXI is still sub-based. And so on.
As far as F2P MMOs having P2W items. This is a discussion that has become far too specific and limited in its scope. When people think of P2W, they tend to think specifically of items that will give one player an advantage over another. If it doesn't fall under that category, it's immediately tossed into the other category, "fluff".
Here's the problem with that characterization, though. Those items that the OP describes as "temporary boosts to performance" or what-not are very much "pay to win" items as well. They're also sold to offset limitations or obstacles deliberately designed into the game. Those limitations and obstacles are implemented based on years worth of data available on what players value most in a gameplay experience, what goals they seem to favor most, the importance of social standing, and what playstyles could yield the most monetary value to them.
Why do people buy xp potions? Because leveling is too slow otherwise, oftentimes, slower than in any P2P MMO after a certain level. Many people, especially these days, like to level quickly. The developers know this. Who sets and controls the xp curve in the game? The developers.
Why do people buy HP or MP pots? Because MP and HP are important commodities in a MMO. Run out of HP, you die. Run out of MP, you can't fight and it's likely you'll die. There never seems to be quite enough MP or HP at times, especially as you progress into harder areas. The MP and HP pots dropped in game either drop far too sparsely, or are far too ineffective for any kind of serious use. However, the cash shop usually has a nice variety of very potent HP and MP pots that will certainly do the trick. Again, the developers could reduce the damage inflicted by mobs, they could increase the players' HP and MP pools, they could make more potent HP/MP pots drop in-game. They could do any number of things. But they don't. Why? So they can sell more HP/MP pots in the cash shop.
That's just two examples, though the list goes on. In this case, I wouldn't call it "pay to win". I'd call it "pay to progress". It's not exactly the same as Pay to Win, but it's certainly a cousin to it, based on the same concept. The difference is, in a "pay to win" scenario, the purchase of power is pro-active, while in the "pay to progress" scenario, it's more reactive.
It really goes back to one of the core reasons I came to dislike Cash Shop/F2P MMO's. The game design is focused, however discretely, around the idea of getting people to spend money as much as possible. I prefer developer efforts go into coming up with ways to engage and entertain and immerse me while I'm logged in, not on figuring out more ways to monetize me as much as they can by sneakily designing these speedbumps and obstacles into the game.
I prefer a P2P/Subscription because I pay my sub fee and that's *it*. That's all the developer expects or asks from me for the next month, leaving me to dive into their world and do whatever it is I want, however often I want. It leaves me with the knowledge that anything it is I want to obtain or achieve in the game, I will 100% by playing it. I don't have to be snatched out of the experience with the reminder that, oops, the leveling pace just dropped by half, I'm out of xp potions, and now need to go and buy more. I won't have to worry about an ever-present cash shop button showing up on screen that I can't get rid of (as is the case in several I've tried). I don't have to worry about seeing ads pop up on the screen, or show up in every loading screen I see. It's just me playing the game. That's it.
It's like the difference between popping a DVD into your player, sitting on the couch and losing yourself in a movie, uninterrupted, for the next couple hours; or, watching that same movie in "edited for TV" form with commercial breaks every 10 minutes or so. There's just no comparison for me.
To be honest I got a big deal of trouble with F2P as they are.
Heres an example - I used to be big fan of LOTRO until it finally got old and i moved on. Some time later few expansions were released and i decided it`s a good time for my old captain to ride for all the free peoples once again, but i soon discovered game shifted to F2P model. Well, ok I thought, and quickly purchased my regular subscription, now called premium, like a good old customer of turbine`s and loged in. To my great disdain i could not play it, as i soon found out. Even as a "subscriber" my every moment in middle earth was filled with annoying ADs: "Buy stat potions, launcher window said. Buy some rate scrolls, tool-tip poped out." And I must say i was annoyed greatly, every damn loading screen with another commercial push I came across (and that was EVERY loading screen) botched my LOTRO experience even more. It was so frustrateing in the end, my favorite MMO turned into common "TV shop show", i never even looked back her way.
My bottom line - f2p model does VERY bad things to developers and publishers both. They will exist, of course, as they turn nice profits on that "pay anything to win" minority, and because of this minority service quality priorities shift greatly, and that is a worst part of it.
Odd, I don't get hit with that many ads. Although I am a lifetime subscriber, so maybe that accounts for the difference.
If you want fastest progress, the most powerful character possible and to be able to do everything you will have to use a lot of TP in Lotro even if you pay the monthly fee(premium) or have lifetime subscription. If you are a min maxer and a powergamer. If you have a different playstyle you may not think its a problem or even recognize it. But others cetainly do...
And adds will pop up that tells you to "enhance your character" or to "buy boosts and wreck havoc" or to help you level faster, grind faction faster and so on.
I don`t have a problem of idea of cash shop, especially since LOTRO it not really competitive and PvP is rudimentary (at least it used to be), so if guys don`t have time to do stuff themselves it`s fine by me. Cash "powerplayers/powerspenders" make me smile every time i see one. Let the people who interested in offers see them. Push every AD you like to free players, it`s dev`s honest right. But srsly, you don`t sub to a commercial break every time you do area transition. I know where cash shop button is if i ever need anything. At least give me an option to get rid of that "buy-a-bag on discount only this month" iditicy. Nah, too greedy for that, and it`s dissapointing. Turbine really overdid cash shop marketing on both LOTRO and DnD. It`s theme park style of game, don`t ruin the atmosphere, dammit!
All in all i can only agree to what TangentPoint posted a bit back.
That Ragnarok pic reminds me how much I would have rather played a Star Ocean MMORPG. Star Ocean 2 style of course, with 2D sprites on 3D backgrounds with WASD/dual analog movement instead of point-and-click. Kickstarter anyone?
I've never put value towards a game based off the subscription. if the game itself is enjoyable ill play it, i could careless about cash shops, Monthly Fees, Expansions. it really doesnt matter in the end, enjoying the game is what makes it good right.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
The author of this article massively understates the prevalence of pay-to-win in today's "F2P" MMO's, so much so that I wonder if he is doing it deliberately or is simply inexperienced and misinformed. I have played 20+ major "F2P" games and every single one of them, without exception, had P2W/pay-for-advantage aspects to the cash shop. I very much doubt if an exception even exists.
The majority of "F2P" games have items in the cash shop that give advantage in PvE, PvP, or both - advantages that it is not possible for a free player to get. The handful that allow free players to also acquire cash shop items make sure that there are stiff punishments in place to discourage this.
I found the article to be kind of missing the point in some aspects (particularly why some Sub-based MMOs failed, which I'll get to) and seemed to turn a sort of blind eye to others.
First, the bit about MMOs with subs failing too much and so "something had to change". No it didn't. What has to change is this misplaced idea that a P2P MMO that fails, does so because of its payment model. That argument is a complete myth. A fabrication intended to damn subscriptions, and usually stated in favor of F2P/Cash Shops.
P2P MMOs fail for the same reason any other product does: it's not a good enough product to enough people, it fails to bring in enough revenue, and so it goes under. Just like in any other industry, if you don't put out a product enough people want, you're not going to be successful. That's all there is to it.
Look back over every P2P MMO that has been taken offline. Every single one of them had very specific gameplay-related issues, sometimes several of them, that contributed to them failing. Meanwhile those that are well-enough made to attract and keep a healthier number of players continue to do fine. Rift is one of the most recent examples of a sub-based MMO that is doing just fine. TOR is doing fine as a sub-based MMO. FFXI is still sub-based. And so on.
As far as F2P MMOs having P2W items. This is a discussion that has become far too specific and limited in its scope. When people think of P2W, they tend to think specifically of items that will give one player an advantage over another. If it doesn't fall under that category, it's immediately tossed into the other category, "fluff".
Here's the problem with that characterization, though. Those items that the OP describes as "temporary boosts to performance" or what-not are very much "pay to win" items as well. They're also sold to offset limitations or obstacles deliberately designed into the game. Those limitations and obstacles are implemented based on years worth of data available on what players value most in a gameplay experience, what goals they seem to favor most, the importance of social standing, and what playstyles could yield the most monetary value to them.
Why do people buy xp potions? Because leveling is too slow otherwise, oftentimes, slower than in any P2P MMO after a certain level. Many people, especially these days, like to level quickly. The developers know this. Who sets and controls the xp curve in the game? The developers.
Why do people buy HP or MP pots? Because MP and HP are important commodities in a MMO. Run out of HP, you die. Run out of MP, you can't fight and it's likely you'll die. There never seems to be quite enough MP or HP at times, especially as you progress into harder areas. The MP and HP pots dropped in game either drop far too sparsely, or are far too ineffective for any kind of serious use. However, the cash shop usually has a nice variety of very potent HP and MP pots that will certainly do the trick. Again, the developers could reduce the damage inflicted by mobs, they could increase the players' HP and MP pools, they could make more potent HP/MP pots drop in-game. They could do any number of things. But they don't. Why? So they can sell more HP/MP pots in the cash shop.
That's just two examples, though the list goes on. In this case, I wouldn't call it "pay to win". I'd call it "pay to progress". It's not exactly the same as Pay to Win, but it's certainly a cousin to it, based on the same concept. The difference is, in a "pay to win" scenario, the purchase of power is pro-active, while in the "pay to progress" scenario, it's more reactive.
It really goes back to one of the core reasons I came to dislike Cash Shop/F2P MMO's. The game design is focused, however discretely, around the idea of getting people to spend money as much as possible. I prefer developer efforts go into coming up with ways to engage and entertain and immerse me while I'm logged in, not on figuring out more ways to monetize me as much as they can by sneakily designing these speedbumps and obstacles into the game.
I prefer a P2P/Subscription because I pay my sub fee and that's *it*. That's all the developer expects or asks from me for the next month, leaving me to dive into their world and do whatever it is I want, however often I want. It leaves me with the knowledge that anything it is I want to obtain or achieve in the game, I will 100% by playing it. I don't have to be snatched out of the experience with the reminder that, oops, the leveling pace just dropped by half, I'm out of xp potions, and now need to go and buy more. I won't have to worry about an ever-present cash shop button showing up on screen that I can't get rid of (as is the case in several I've tried). I don't have to worry about seeing ads pop up on the screen, or show up in every loading screen I see. It's just me playing the game. That's it.
It's like the difference between popping a DVD into your player, sitting on the couch and losing yourself in a movie, uninterrupted, for the next couple hours; or, watching that same movie in "edited for TV" form with commercial breaks every 10 minutes or so. There's just no comparison for me.
Amen. This has always been my dislike about F2P games, their intrinsic design to place obstacles to progression and content in order to optimize cash shop purchases. On top of the fact that it always costs me more than 15 bucks a month in a F2P game in order to achieve the same experience I normally have in a subscription game.
Why suprised? STO implemented a gambling system where you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get exclusive items, people don't want that crap. Greed kills games quick.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Sorry Victor but that piece reads like it should come with a disclaimor on the bottom ...
"The above advocacy piece was paid for by the Chamber of Commerce for F2P games"
Some salient counter-points.....
"Most games that carry the “free” moniker, however, deal with in microtransactions that are cosmetic changes, fluff items such as mounts or in-game items that don’t have significant impact on gameplay"
Sorry but from my personal experience (admitedly anecdotal), facts on the ground say otherwise. I would go so far to say that I have yet to encounter a F2P game that was NOT "Pay 2 Win" or at least "Pay for significant Advantage"...at least in how I view those terms. Some games are admitedly much more egregious then others....... and a F2P game itself may have enough redeeming factors that I'll even occasionaly play it and play it IN SPITE of the P2Win factor...if that factor is not an egrigious enough intrusion on gameplay....but that doesn't change the fact that such a factor does, indeed, exist.
"Either way, most games tend to be upfront about what they have available for purchase, "
Again, from my observation, facts on the ground say otherwise. From my experience most F2P publishers are well versed with the lesson that a frog dropped directly into a boiling pot will jump out but one placed into a pot of cool water that is gradualy heated to a boil will remain in the pot. Many F2P publishers do NOT start out with overly egregious RMT practices right from the get go.... but they are constantly and gradualy pushing the envelope of what they will offer right upto and quite often past the limits of thier customers tolerance. Although that is a natural process of many businesses in order to maximize process....as a consumer and a gamer, it's quite insidious and especialy so if you are looking for a game that you will make a long term commitment to playing. For example, just look at what was on offer on the LOTRO store at it's inception, what Turbine stated they would/would not do in terms of items for sale in that store when first introducing the store to the player community and what is on offer in that store today. QED.
I won't hit the other points...but I will state that you missed one VERY important barrier to entry....perhaps even the most significant one. Many people simply DON'T want to be reminded of real world financial considerations when playing a game and relaxing. They don't want to have to THINK about how much they are spending or what they can afford to do when playing a game, how much they can afford to play. They most certainly don't want to be bombarded with advertisements or inticements to purchase things while playing a game. They don't enjoy "shopping" or the act of making purchases while playing. They simply want to pay thier fixed entry fee to play...and relax ...get away from real world considerations and JUST PLAY THE GAME, enjoy it as little or as much as suits their whim without any complicating factors....this even includes people who fortunate enough that they don't even really need to worry about budgets or the financial implications of that form of entertainment... I know...I happen to be one of them. It's one of the reasons why "ALL INCLUSIVE" vacation & resort packages are popular with many people. In fact, I'll GLADLY pay TWICE what a vacation/meal/holiday/game would cost me "ala-carte"...just to not have price tags stuck on everything and not have to reach for my wallet every time I order a drink or hot dog or want to take out a canoe for a few hours. That's a REAL factor that makes many people just not want to consider a F2P game....because the payment model ITSELF takes away directly from the users enjoyment.
Even those F2P games that offer "Package Deals" tend to nickle and dime you to death with many things that aren't included within thier Package...and more and more of those "extra's" that you have to pay for on top of your package seem to get introduced over time... I'm looking at you LOTRO "V.I.P." package.
I've never put value towards a game based off the subscription. if the game itself is enjoyable ill play it, i could careless about cash shops, Monthly Fees, Expansions. it really doesnt matter in the end, enjoying the game is what makes it good right.
Yeah I agree...Too many people here simply think that if a game is p2p then it must be good, and if it is f2p then it must be bad.....You have to weigh each game individually and decide for yourself.
I realize that a significant amount of your advertising revenue comes from F2P publishers.....
I realize that RMT and F2P are important trends in the hobby deserving of coverage....
I realize that the PRO "F2P/RMT" side IS a legitimate viewpoint and there are legitimate arguements that can be put forward for it.....
I realize that this IS the "Devils Advocate" column....
However, you really need to introduce some EDITORIAL balance on this issue. We are bombarded nearly every day with these "Rah, Rah...in defence of F2P" articles here. I have yet to see a single counter-point piece appear here. You stated over a year ago that you would do one...it never materialized. You have not had, that I have observed, a SINGLE piece that was unabashedly critical of F2P/RMT and the negatives it DOES, in fact have to counter-balance the many Pro pieces.
That dynamic is NOT representitive of your audience, NOR is it a fair and balanced representation of the hobby as a whole.
I'm not blaming Victor or the other writers here. They are writing thier articles from a particular perspective and viewpoint... and they sometimes even do touch upon some of the criticisms but it's clear that they are addressing the issue from a particular perspective. I am not suggesting that they write from a perspective that it is not thier own. However, it is your job as editors to insure that a DIVERSITY of perspectives appear in your coverage of issues effecting the hobby.
Ugh this thread is ridiculous. You people who are saying F2P is pay to win, and worse yet, games like LOTRO, why don't you support your pointless argument with evidence. Name items from LOTRO, for instance, that are pay to win.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
One thing I would like to add to all of this. I have been playing the free to play circuit regularly now for four years.
As I started up on Aion (a game I bought on release) when it went ftp, I was amazed how great it had come along, ok getting off track....
My point is in the many ftp games I have been part of, now Aion, EQ 1/2, Aika, LoTRO, FEZ, AoC, WAR Trial, PWI, to name a few...I have started to notice the same guilds running in them, and they aren't NA guilds. Very rarely do I see NA guilds common in these games. I do see though a multinational guild/legion growth from Asia (Japan, Thailand, Phillipines, Vietnam), Aussies/Kiwis, Germany, Brazil(BR), Russia, Greeks, even Slovokia....and it's great. It's great to see the same folk and be fighting alongside them in many of these pvp-based games again and again.
No I do not speak their native languages, but that's the fun of it, the game works as a communication tool in itself. Hopefully I find an NA guild soon that also runs in the same games, for it is really a blast to see the same flags consistantly, definitely builds a community, an international gaming community....something I never saw in NA subscription games.
Comments
None. People just enjoy ranting. Ignore them and they might go away (I doubt it but still).
Smile
Hardly. Most games out there that are free to play cost so little to play if you play it smart. The nicest part is that you essentially do one-time purchases of content. Pay to win...haha. That is just ignorance to think, considering people that pay to get to max level quicker is hardly something that would be considered winning.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
Doesn't matter what you talk about, NOTHING is free without some kind of shameless plug or cash shop.... just saying.
Just checked comments now, so I apologize for the delay. Am currently visiting family in a different country, so I'm using a different connection and a netbook.
The picture with the ships is from a browser based MMO called Kultan, and may not be completely representative of the game, in my limited experience (My travel laptop is dreadfully slow and crashes when I try to run some games, such as Kultan. Not the game's fault, but the netbook's age showing).
Regarding the pay-to-win arguments mentioned here, I reference it when I talk about most games having some cash shop items that don't significantly impact and create a long-term advantage. While one with a lot of money could theoretically buy XP multipliers and strength buffs from start to finish, it's not exactly economically viable. As for games that tend to force players to buy items to get ahead at higher levels, I apologize for not bringing it up, as I personally am the type that chooses not to spend money and simply picks a different game when I get pushed to spend to alleviate grind... in other words, it didn't cross my mind.
Lastly, Sinjin is correct in saying that F2P games are not free if you consider plugs or cash shop mentions. You do, however, get to mitigate monetary usage depending on your how long and how often you play an individual MMO.
A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly.
Can also be found on http://www.gamesandgeekery.com
We see free games made inconvenient by design to sell items that are "only for convenience". Really I have yet to come across a free game that approaches the quality of subscription games. I play LotRO and Conan on occasion but in both combat is clunky and travel is a pain in the arse. If I am going to pick up a game and play for a bit, I don't want to spend 10 minutes just getting somewhere to do something. And I think those 2 are in the upper eschelon of quality when it comes to free games. While the price of a game may be free, my time is not. That is why there is a barrier for me to try a new free game, I don't want to waste my time downloading and playing something only to find out the game actually doesn't get any better as you progress. There are more than enough new games that come out that are actually fun, and I don't mind paying for them.
There are certain stigma's that have gotten associated with Free-To-Play games that I think need to be dismissed, but there are also a few other valid points that need to be brought up.
First, it is very possible to make a nice polished game and have it be F2P. The reason people get turned off is unfortunately we have had a TON of just absolute garbage F2P games released that are ruining the name F2P.
Second, cash shops if done right are a great addition to some games, and provide that income for the developers to continue improving and supporting their games. As long as the items don't provide in game advantages then it's a non-issue since it doesn't affect other players.
With those two out of the way though, I have to say that I strongly feel like the F2P model is destroying the online community. If you spend money on the box and invest in 3, 6, 12 months, or even longer you are commiting yourself to a game, and also to your character and account. Any game that has a trial 1-20 or F2P just read the general chat, it's ridiculous. One of the posters in this thread even brought up what I mean. If you are playing 9 F2P games at a time you aren't committed to any of them, what do you care if you are a ninja looter, or a royal ass to everyone? Ruined your reputation? No problem, just create another account, it's free. Pretty sure you aren't going to continue playing the game? Let everyone in general chat know how much their life sucks because they are playing that game. What does it matter, you have 8 other games to fall back on. Want to try botting or hacking but don't want to lose your account? No problem, if you get banned you can just make another and it's free! It's not like you invested 3 years into it and don't want to lose it. You can say whatever you want and do whatever you want because there is zero comittment to that character or even game.
It's already bad enough with B2P games, but to use the Penny Acade theory it takes the whole "Normal person + annonymity + audience = Total !@#$wad"; to a whole new level. F2P games have their own niche right now, and I like that, but it will be a sad, cold day when they replace B2P entirely.
Achievment level: Talk about Pay2win without mentioning Allods Online!
DING DING DING
*fireworks*
Ad-block/Anti-banner no ads on Hotmail. Also the few times I had a question about my email service it was answered pretty quick even if it wasn't live(instantly answered I'm guessing you mean).
I've only played EQ, EVE Online, and WoW so i need and will try some F2P ones. But I am on the side that some F2P are just for making money a lot of the ones I've seen in the past advertised the parts you'd have to pay for just as much or more as the free side.
My view on this is kind of like my view on tipping. I don't believe in it. It's much easier I think to have a sub fee/include waiter's wage into meal than to have a F2P unless you're trying to make money as fast as possible. Most times it seems like the only people hurt are the consumer/customer and the game/waiter. And if people think the sub is too high they just stop paying.
But it's no surprise if you think about it. F2P is the normal step with more competition among good games and the lazy people thinking it's a market where they can make a quick buck with a bad game. Atm I think eventually P2P will make a comeback at least a small one with quality games. Then F2P will mostly be gone or be a sub market or be a combination with P2P.
The hate for F2P come from players who want something for nothing. They come to F2P expecting to play for 10 year or more and not spend a cent. They are infuriated that those that do spend money get something that they do not, or is difficult for them to get. They expect the devs not to be paid, and still support the game with fixes and content updates. If the game must be paid for, it shall not affect them or their game play directly or indirectly. They shall not compete against Pay Shop Items, Content shall not be limited by pay shop, nothing they want or can be used against them shall be Pay Shop.
I don’t mean to offend anyone, but by only tolerating Vanity Items to be sold, they are saying “Let those ---- & ---- pay for our hardcore PvP / PvE game play, we will not pay.” By this I ONLY mean that opponents to F2P want some outside group that they don’t respect to pay for their game play.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
That's a pretty reaching opinion if you're saying that being against F2P games selling items that make leveling faster or gear is the same as not thinking that the devs shouldn't be paid in anyway.
To be honest I got a big deal of trouble with F2P as they are.
Heres an example - I used to be big fan of LOTRO until it finally got old and i moved on. Some time later few expansions were released and i decided it`s a good time for my old captain to ride for all the free peoples once again, but i soon discovered game shifted to F2P model. Well, ok I thought, and quickly purchased my regular subscription, now called premium, like a good old customer of turbine`s and loged in. To my great disdain i could not play it, as i soon found out. Even as a "subscriber" my every moment in middle earth was filled with annoying ADs: "Buy stat potions, launcher window said. Buy some rate scrolls, tool-tip poped out." And I must say i was annoyed greatly, every damn loading screen with another commercial push I came across (and that was EVERY loading screen) botched my LOTRO experience even more. It was so frustrateing in the end, my favorite MMO turned into common "TV shop show", i never even looked back her way.
My bottom line - f2p model does VERY bad things to developers and publishers both. They will exist, of course, as they turn nice profits on that "pay anything to win" minority, and because of this minority service quality priorities shift greatly, and that is a worst part of it.
Odd, I don't get hit with that many ads. Although I am a lifetime subscriber, so maybe that accounts for the difference.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
You Guys crying over F2P being bad is sickning, i will just give one example of one game that while not being mmorpg entirely for me has the best F2P system i know. League of Legends is free you just spend money if you want to buy or champions or skins and practically nothing more and its a very successfull game. of course there are some F2P who have ads, or piss you off constantly for you to spend money on their cash shop and of course there are some who actually have items who grant advantages that disrupt the fairness of the game, but like people you have bad people and good people, you have good food bad food, you have bad weather good weather and so on, just because you didnt like one F2P game doesnt mean the entire universe of F2P games are the same open you narrow minds a little.
If you want fastest progress, the most powerful character possible and to be able to do everything you will have to use a lot of TP in Lotro even if you pay the monthly fee(premium) or have lifetime subscription. If you are a min maxer and a powergamer. If you have a different playstyle you may not think its a problem or even recognize it. But others cetainly do...
And adds will pop up that tells you to "enhance your character" or to "buy boosts and wreck havoc" or to help you level faster, grind faction faster and so on.
I found the article to be kind of missing the point in some aspects (particularly why some Sub-based MMOs failed, which I'll get to) and seemed to turn a sort of blind eye to others.
First, the bit about MMOs with subs failing too much and so "something had to change". No it didn't. What has to change is this misplaced idea that a P2P MMO that fails, does so because of its payment model. That argument is a complete myth. A fabrication intended to damn subscriptions, and usually stated in favor of F2P/Cash Shops.
P2P MMOs fail for the same reason any other product does: it's not a good enough product to enough people, it fails to bring in enough revenue, and so it goes under. Just like in any other industry, if you don't put out a product enough people want, you're not going to be successful. That's all there is to it.
Look back over every P2P MMO that has been taken offline. Every single one of them had very specific gameplay-related issues, sometimes several of them, that contributed to them failing. Meanwhile those that are well-enough made to attract and keep a healthier number of players continue to do fine. Rift is one of the most recent examples of a sub-based MMO that is doing just fine. TOR is doing fine as a sub-based MMO. FFXI is still sub-based. And so on.
As far as F2P MMOs having P2W items. This is a discussion that has become far too specific and limited in its scope. When people think of P2W, they tend to think specifically of items that will give one player an advantage over another. If it doesn't fall under that category, it's immediately tossed into the other category, "fluff".
Here's the problem with that characterization, though. Those items that the OP describes as "temporary boosts to performance" or what-not are very much "pay to win" items as well. They're also sold to offset limitations or obstacles deliberately designed into the game. Those limitations and obstacles are implemented based on years worth of data available on what players value most in a gameplay experience, what goals they seem to favor most, the importance of social standing, and what playstyles could yield the most monetary value to them.
Why do people buy xp potions? Because leveling is too slow otherwise, oftentimes, slower than in any P2P MMO after a certain level. Many people, especially these days, like to level quickly. The developers know this. Who sets and controls the xp curve in the game? The developers.
Why do people buy HP or MP pots? Because MP and HP are important commodities in a MMO. Run out of HP, you die. Run out of MP, you can't fight and it's likely you'll die. There never seems to be quite enough MP or HP at times, especially as you progress into harder areas. The MP and HP pots dropped in game either drop far too sparsely, or are far too ineffective for any kind of serious use. However, the cash shop usually has a nice variety of very potent HP and MP pots that will certainly do the trick. Again, the developers could reduce the damage inflicted by mobs, they could increase the players' HP and MP pools, they could make more potent HP/MP pots drop in-game. They could do any number of things. But they don't. Why? So they can sell more HP/MP pots in the cash shop.
That's just two examples, though the list goes on. In this case, I wouldn't call it "pay to win". I'd call it "pay to progress". It's not exactly the same as Pay to Win, but it's certainly a cousin to it, based on the same concept. The difference is, in a "pay to win" scenario, the purchase of power is pro-active, while in the "pay to progress" scenario, it's more reactive.
It really goes back to one of the core reasons I came to dislike Cash Shop/F2P MMO's. The game design is focused, however discretely, around the idea of getting people to spend money as much as possible. I prefer developer efforts go into coming up with ways to engage and entertain and immerse me while I'm logged in, not on figuring out more ways to monetize me as much as they can by sneakily designing these speedbumps and obstacles into the game.
I prefer a P2P/Subscription because I pay my sub fee and that's *it*. That's all the developer expects or asks from me for the next month, leaving me to dive into their world and do whatever it is I want, however often I want. It leaves me with the knowledge that anything it is I want to obtain or achieve in the game, I will 100% by playing it. I don't have to be snatched out of the experience with the reminder that, oops, the leveling pace just dropped by half, I'm out of xp potions, and now need to go and buy more. I won't have to worry about an ever-present cash shop button showing up on screen that I can't get rid of (as is the case in several I've tried). I don't have to worry about seeing ads pop up on the screen, or show up in every loading screen I see. It's just me playing the game. That's it.
It's like the difference between popping a DVD into your player, sitting on the couch and losing yourself in a movie, uninterrupted, for the next couple hours; or, watching that same movie in "edited for TV" form with commercial breaks every 10 minutes or so. There's just no comparison for me.
I don`t have a problem of idea of cash shop, especially since LOTRO it not really competitive and PvP is rudimentary (at least it used to be), so if guys don`t have time to do stuff themselves it`s fine by me. Cash "powerplayers/powerspenders" make me smile every time i see one. Let the people who interested in offers see them. Push every AD you like to free players, it`s dev`s honest right. But srsly, you don`t sub to a commercial break every time you do area transition. I know where cash shop button is if i ever need anything. At least give me an option to get rid of that "buy-a-bag on discount only this month" iditicy. Nah, too greedy for that, and it`s dissapointing. Turbine really overdid cash shop marketing on both LOTRO and DnD. It`s theme park style of game, don`t ruin the atmosphere, dammit!
All in all i can only agree to what TangentPoint posted a bit back.
That Ragnarok pic reminds me how much I would have rather played a Star Ocean MMORPG. Star Ocean 2 style of course, with 2D sprites on 3D backgrounds with WASD/dual analog movement instead of point-and-click. Kickstarter anyone?
I've never put value towards a game based off the subscription. if the game itself is enjoyable ill play it, i could careless about cash shops, Monthly Fees, Expansions. it really doesnt matter in the end, enjoying the game is what makes it good right.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Amen. This has always been my dislike about F2P games, their intrinsic design to place obstacles to progression and content in order to optimize cash shop purchases. On top of the fact that it always costs me more than 15 bucks a month in a F2P game in order to achieve the same experience I normally have in a subscription game.
Why suprised? STO implemented a gambling system where you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get exclusive items, people don't want that crap. Greed kills games quick.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Sorry Victor but that piece reads like it should come with a disclaimor on the bottom ...
"The above advocacy piece was paid for by the Chamber of Commerce for F2P games"
Some salient counter-points.....
"Most games that carry the “free” moniker, however, deal with in microtransactions that are cosmetic changes, fluff items such as mounts or in-game items that don’t have significant impact on gameplay"
Sorry but from my personal experience (admitedly anecdotal), facts on the ground say otherwise. I would go so far to say that I have yet to encounter a F2P game that was NOT "Pay 2 Win" or at least "Pay for significant Advantage"...at least in how I view those terms. Some games are admitedly much more egregious then others....... and a F2P game itself may have enough redeeming factors that I'll even occasionaly play it and play it IN SPITE of the P2Win factor...if that factor is not an egrigious enough intrusion on gameplay....but that doesn't change the fact that such a factor does, indeed, exist.
"Either way, most games tend to be upfront about what they have available for purchase, "
Again, from my observation, facts on the ground say otherwise. From my experience most F2P publishers are well versed with the lesson that a frog dropped directly into a boiling pot will jump out but one placed into a pot of cool water that is gradualy heated to a boil will remain in the pot. Many F2P publishers do NOT start out with overly egregious RMT practices right from the get go.... but they are constantly and gradualy pushing the envelope of what they will offer right upto and quite often past the limits of thier customers tolerance. Although that is a natural process of many businesses in order to maximize process....as a consumer and a gamer, it's quite insidious and especialy so if you are looking for a game that you will make a long term commitment to playing. For example, just look at what was on offer on the LOTRO store at it's inception, what Turbine stated they would/would not do in terms of items for sale in that store when first introducing the store to the player community and what is on offer in that store today. QED.
I won't hit the other points...but I will state that you missed one VERY important barrier to entry....perhaps even the most significant one. Many people simply DON'T want to be reminded of real world financial considerations when playing a game and relaxing. They don't want to have to THINK about how much they are spending or what they can afford to do when playing a game, how much they can afford to play. They most certainly don't want to be bombarded with advertisements or inticements to purchase things while playing a game. They don't enjoy "shopping" or the act of making purchases while playing. They simply want to pay thier fixed entry fee to play...and relax ...get away from real world considerations and JUST PLAY THE GAME, enjoy it as little or as much as suits their whim without any complicating factors....this even includes people who fortunate enough that they don't even really need to worry about budgets or the financial implications of that form of entertainment... I know...I happen to be one of them. It's one of the reasons why "ALL INCLUSIVE" vacation & resort packages are popular with many people. In fact, I'll GLADLY pay TWICE what a vacation/meal/holiday/game would cost me "ala-carte"...just to not have price tags stuck on everything and not have to reach for my wallet every time I order a drink or hot dog or want to take out a canoe for a few hours. That's a REAL factor that makes many people just not want to consider a F2P game....because the payment model ITSELF takes away directly from the users enjoyment.
Even those F2P games that offer "Package Deals" tend to nickle and dime you to death with many things that aren't included within thier Package...and more and more of those "extra's" that you have to pay for on top of your package seem to get introduced over time... I'm looking at you LOTRO "V.I.P." package.
Yeah I agree...Too many people here simply think that if a game is p2p then it must be good, and if it is f2p then it must be bad.....You have to weigh each game individually and decide for yourself.
On a side note.... MMORPG.....
I realize that a significant amount of your advertising revenue comes from F2P publishers.....
I realize that RMT and F2P are important trends in the hobby deserving of coverage....
I realize that the PRO "F2P/RMT" side IS a legitimate viewpoint and there are legitimate arguements that can be put forward for it.....
I realize that this IS the "Devils Advocate" column....
However, you really need to introduce some EDITORIAL balance on this issue. We are bombarded nearly every day with these "Rah, Rah...in defence of F2P" articles here. I have yet to see a single counter-point piece appear here. You stated over a year ago that you would do one...it never materialized. You have not had, that I have observed, a SINGLE piece that was unabashedly critical of F2P/RMT and the negatives it DOES, in fact have to counter-balance the many Pro pieces.
That dynamic is NOT representitive of your audience, NOR is it a fair and balanced representation of the hobby as a whole.
I'm not blaming Victor or the other writers here. They are writing thier articles from a particular perspective and viewpoint... and they sometimes even do touch upon some of the criticisms but it's clear that they are addressing the issue from a particular perspective. I am not suggesting that they write from a perspective that it is not thier own. However, it is your job as editors to insure that a DIVERSITY of perspectives appear in your coverage of issues effecting the hobby.
Ugh this thread is ridiculous. You people who are saying F2P is pay to win, and worse yet, games like LOTRO, why don't you support your pointless argument with evidence. Name items from LOTRO, for instance, that are pay to win.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
One thing I would like to add to all of this. I have been playing the free to play circuit regularly now for four years.
As I started up on Aion (a game I bought on release) when it went ftp, I was amazed how great it had come along, ok getting off track....
My point is in the many ftp games I have been part of, now Aion, EQ 1/2, Aika, LoTRO, FEZ, AoC, WAR Trial, PWI, to name a few...I have started to notice the same guilds running in them, and they aren't NA guilds. Very rarely do I see NA guilds common in these games. I do see though a multinational guild/legion growth from Asia (Japan, Thailand, Phillipines, Vietnam), Aussies/Kiwis, Germany, Brazil(BR), Russia, Greeks, even Slovokia....and it's great. It's great to see the same folk and be fighting alongside them in many of these pvp-based games again and again.
No I do not speak their native languages, but that's the fun of it, the game works as a communication tool in itself. Hopefully I find an NA guild soon that also runs in the same games, for it is really a blast to see the same flags consistantly, definitely builds a community, an international gaming community....something I never saw in NA subscription games.
Just something to ponder.