Originally posted by Khaeros WoW does reward everyone who goes on the raid. Ever heard of Valor points, bro? How about Emblems of Frost? If you're in a guild, you'll also be part of a loot system that rewards you properly for attendance. Really? You want 2-person dungeons to give the same tier gear as 25 mans? You've got it easy enough since you can cap valor through the fucking dungeon finder - what more do you want? Loot to pop in your mailbox whenever you go to the bathroom? It's funny because people whine all day erryday about WAHHHH MMOS ARENT SOCIAL ENOUGH and then they go WAHHH YOU HAVE TO GROUP WITH 9 OR 24 OTHER PLAYERS INSTEAD OF SOLO FOR BEST GEAR!1!11111. Make up your mind, bro. Do you want MMOs to be antisocial basement-dwelling neckbeardfests or about banding together with friends? In smaller groups, your class composition has a huge part in your success - see arenas. Want to go back to the good old times when you're not raiding without a warrior tank and every class who has a healing spec is forced to use it 24/7? Should players just be forced to reroll because they picked an inferior class (warlock)? Cry balance all you want but there's a reason why paladins are the most played class, kid! In small teams, you can bet that there will be people making sure that only the best comps run and the rest stay out. Mad about the treadmill? Don't step on it. As for me?
Seriously? Did you bother to even read? Your usage of the word "bro" suggests said reading level is far below that of a 15 year old.
Can you provide an answer as to why a raid should give better gear than a dungeon that allows 2 people only? Skill is skill, so difficulty is not going to change from 20 people to 2 people, merely the numbers.
World of Warcraft is your only answer? Treadmill? Really? So again, who wants to do the same dungeon over and over just to eventually get an item that will increase your overall class power by 1%? Oh right, people who have nothing else better to do....uh, so why should the rest of us have to be subjected to that? There are other ways to create content that does not demand repetitive raiding.
Yeah, and like others say, time. Perhaps not all of us have all the time in the world to log in and play for like 4 hours. Did you ever think that options mean more here? If I login and only find one other person on who is available, this is why being able to do a 2 person dungeon would be nice. I logon and find 3 people? Good, we do a 4 person dungeon. Even better if dungeons have scaling.
People like options....you, however, like forcing your stupid version of hardcore down others' throats. Expect others to disagree with you because you have shallow interests.
I agree that there should be a reasonable level of equivelant gear for displays of skill with groups smaller than a raid group. However, the organization, work in getting all members of the guild keyed, attuned w/e the game chooses to call it for a raid and the commitment involved in order to execute a raid successfully deserves a unique reward. Without that, there would be no incentive for the players who do enjoy and/or have the time for that aspect of the game. I myself am not a player who is willing to commit the time, energy or playtime to it but I do recognize that the individuals that do should be rewarded for that.
I agree that there should be a reasonable level of equivelant gear for displays of skill with groups smaller than a raid group. However, the organization, work in getting all members of the guild keyed, attuned w/e the game chooses to call it for a raid and the commitment involved in order to execute a raid successfully deserves a unique reward. Without that, there would be no incentive for the players who do enjoy and/or have the time for that aspect of the game. I myself am not a player who is willing to commit the time, energy or playtime to it but I do recognize that the individuals that do should be rewarded for that.
I can agree on the unique reward for raids, however, it shouldn't be the highest gear out there. I mean, people who raid always claim they love raiding, so they should be raiding mainly for the fun of raiding. Otherwise, why would raids be the endgame?
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
I liked older EQ more, and I would like to flush the over use of instances down the toilet...I want to play a massive multiplayer, not a lobby, lets go to a sterile enviornment where only my group exists....
Their was negatives about open world everything, but I think they made things more exciting and fun, atleast for dungeons...
I use to lead raids, raided and such, it could be very stressful in old EQ, and some instance stuff for raiding wasn't the worst thing ever, but when dungeons and all raid content became instanced, it sucked....I would love to atleast get back to 50/50...
On the flip side, I am tired of the token/point/daily instance grinds, they are so artificial and boring, I will take grinding in a dungeon for a rare drop any day of the week, over me doing the same daily gauntlet everyday like a checklist.
I think there is a large group of folks who just can't or don't know how to raid. That or will not commit the time to learning there class or educating themselves on content.
I have seen this time after time and I still see this even in SWTOR just even running in 4man flashpoints. Folks just want to FACEROLL everything with no CC and wiping on easy shit.
You get folks who don't CC.
You get Tanks who can't LOS pull, Tank more than 1 mob, or have their backs agains the wall for knockbacks.
You get healers who can't manage their Focus/Energy, or simply DPS and not heal.
You get DPS who can't Focus fire making it harder for healers to keep the tank up.
I agree that there should be a reasonable level of equivelant gear for displays of skill with groups smaller than a raid group. However, the organization, work in getting all members of the guild keyed, attuned w/e the game chooses to call it for a raid and the commitment involved in order to execute a raid successfully deserves a unique reward. Without that, there would be no incentive for the players who do enjoy and/or have the time for that aspect of the game. I myself am not a player who is willing to commit the time, energy or playtime to it but I do recognize that the individuals that do should be rewarded for that.
I can agree on the unique reward for raids, however, it shouldn't be the highest gear out there. I mean, people who raid always claim they love raiding, so they should be raiding mainly for the fun of raiding. Otherwise, why would raids be the endgame?
i don't care that raids offer the best gear in most games. the only use for the gear is rading/more raiding. the gear progression is there so that the raid's progress. why shouldn't it be the "best" gear? it in no way affects people that don't raid. people do the raids for a greater challenge. the rewards allow them to do the next line of challenges. it's a progressive treadmill. the elitism that is brought about in games, is more due to the facct that people who can't or don't complete raids complain because they can't get the "best gear". but that gear doesn't matter. you get gear rewards based on the content you complete in every game. why do people need tiered rading gear if they only do dungeons?
i just cant stand the elitist attitude of "raiders"
i am getting older, my reflexes arent that sharp anymore, my arthritis is getting worse, and i really don't want to feel like playing a game has to be a second job where i have to spend time out of game researching strats/builds, poring over spreadsheets, farming tradeskill mats to properly min/max, or put up with the screaming whiny d bags that seem to infest every raid i have ever been on, the ones who make a point to bully, denigrate, **** on, and yell at other people for small errors, yet they think they are perfect and never make mistakes.....and when they are called out for making a mistake they quickly turn it on someone else.....
yeah, to hell with those people, i would rather drop out of the rat race and enjoy games on my own terms in my own way, and on my own time, with people who are actually enjoyable to be around.....
i was obviously not alone because the guild i was in was a raiding guild from EQ through WoW, and when the whole raid thing came up again in SWTOR, people really didnt give a damn about raiding and just sort of did their own thing, and the "raiders" got all pissy about it and raiding is dead for the guild now
But wait.. in 90% of other threads everyone and their mother raids and it's the easiest thing ever.. they did Naxx in Vanilla WoW and didn;t think Illidan was hard at all, and they grouped up for ranks in FFXI and they were ... I'm so confused...
But wait.. in 90% of other threads everyone and their mother raids and it's the easiest thing ever.. they did Naxx in Vanilla WoW and didn;t think Illidan was hard at all, and they grouped up for ranks in FFXI and they were ... I'm so confused...
don't be confused. more than 90% of the internet lies. :P
I don't think the difficulty really is the problem, I know plenty of people that enjoy really hard stuff but rarely raid.
The reason I rarely raided in the last few years is the huge waiting time you usually get, there is always someone late, or someone not showing up and you have to find a replacement.
The elite zones in GW are hard as well but since the groups are smaller it is easier to get a group for them fast, preferably people I already know and that plays well.
The gear grind is not really the issue since you can have raids without gear grind. I guess I had more time waiting for players 10 years ago then I have now.
raiding isn't hard. i maintain that. the biggest challenge to raiding is simply getting the guys together who won't ragequit and who are all together at the same time.
no dungeon is hard once you've figured out when to jump back, when to move.
until they get a LOT more random and different, raids will always be the port of call for lazy devs.
i for one really want to see hard gaming. a challenge. yet, the majority of those playing in raiding guilds seem less concerned with a challenge and more concerned with not wiping, not failing, and not actually having to try. the rest seem more desperate to ride the coat tails and be "walked" through everything to getz their gearz. lulz.
gw2 making wiping a pretty much normal component of gameplay is awesome, because i'm hoping it will retrain everyone to "keep trying" rather than ragequitting at the drop of a hat. because those challenging moments, when you've struggled and struggled despite being under-geared or not using the "right" make-up. that's awesome.
raids have become mostly maths and social politics.
yawn.
time for a new way of thinking and some challenging gameplay. i say bring in the random. make the bosses totally unpredictable. scaling's a nice addition, but they need to be unpredictable.
i want to wipe. i want to die. because then, when i nail that boss, i want to feel i've actually accomplished something.
But wait.. in 90% of other threads everyone and their mother raids and it's the easiest thing ever.. they did Naxx in Vanilla WoW and didn;t think Illidan was hard at all, and they grouped up for ranks in FFXI and they were ... I'm so confused...
Well.. both is true. Raids are hard, and the easiest thing ever. Just a matter of definition.
Raids are hard, because you have to invest a lot of time before you even start to raid. You need the right gear, minimum requirement, you have to listen to your raid leader(and we know ADHD is common nowadays), you have to inform you/or figure out by try and error, what to do at any raid boss, and so on and so forth. But if all those preparation is done, and all those 40+ ppl are able to do what they meant to do, it is the easiest thing ever. There is no adaption of the mobs/environment, they will not change their pattern, after all it is just pre scripted pve. So it is hard in the sense of time requirement and the necessity to pay attention, and do just what is asked from you, and not more. But there is no reaction to new situations or adaptability required.
And now the difference to pvp. As long as there is no gear or level requirement, you dont need a lot of preparation time, you just need to know how to play your character and know your skills. BUT, you have to react immediately to new situations, you need a good adaptability, a good hand eye coordination, fast straight reasoning, because your counterpart/s are humans like you, and if they are able to react faster or react with the better tactical approach, they will win. Thats another definition of hard. And in pvp it will be always as hard as your enemy(the other human) is.
As i said, just a matter of definition.
Lets say, raiding is like building a treehouse, once you knew how to build it and you have all parts to build it, it isnt really hard, and pvp is more like chess, it becomes as hard as your counterpart is. (well.. chess is pvp too, therefore not the best analogy)
Raiding shouldn't be hard, but it is, because people cannot focus and do what they are supposed to do for the most part....Raiding is simple, the boss does a script, or even a script with some random actions, players follow a script, based on the AI script and it's random actions...The tedious part is trying to figure out that script...
I didn't play WoW, it wasn't my thing, but speaking back to EQ 72 man raids, all it took was for 1 of those 72 people to do something stupid to wipe everyone...So it was hard to get 72 people together that could keep focus and do what they were supposed to do...The acts you were asking were not 'hard', but the human nature made it hard.....
Games are not complicated for the most part, but it can be amazing how people cannot grasp some of the simple concepts of even group play...I don't buy that someone can't raid due to skill though, I think about anyone should be able to pull themselves together for a raid if they try hard enough to fight whatever ADD they have, if they want to do something...Time wise, yeah, I buy that....I did some raids for epics in EQ that were 3 day events, like a enchanter boss that spawned within a 48 hour window, plus/minus some hours or something like that after the plane of fear was cleared initially (then you had to kill the respawns every 'x' hours), so I get not being able to do things like this or even the smaller 2-6 hour things...The epic stuff was not the norm. though.
So yeah, not 'hard', but difficult to get everyone doing what they are supposed to do, for the set amount of time.
I've raided three or four times in EverQuest II. The only thing I looted was an angry wife.
I enjoyed the raiding experience. However, stacking DKP in order to get a few pieces of gear is something I don't have time for. I have a family. Raiding takes hours. It's extremely rare that I have a few solid hours without interruption.
I'm not one of those guys who simply wants to earn the best loot through some bs instanced pvp process or solo quest. However, I do think they need to design a way so that weekend raiders can get a little something.
This is my biggest detterent in raiding. I'm probably going to be flamed for this but raiding tends to bring a game back to the snails pace of games ike SWG (I loved it because it was my first mmo but honestly I prefer the current design of mmorpg's which issue greater rewards on a quicker pace).
Spending 1.5-2 hours per trip to maybe get a chance at one piece of something when i will have to run that same content over and over doesn't appeal to me at all anymore.
I think the difficulty may play a small part in it in that with the harder content most people need to be on point for the raid to be successfull and that tends to be alot of people to have to depend on.
Which leads me then to the problem that people who raid tend to avoid raidin with those who don't or tend to releagte them to "privates" in the army often times.
I have the same problem as well; I like to raid but I just can't do it. My job does not have steady hours. I don't always have the same days off and I don't work the same hours every day. That means that I certainly can't commit to any kind of raiding schedule.
I'm sure there are others like me who for real life reasons can't really raid.
Comments
Seriously? Did you bother to even read? Your usage of the word "bro" suggests said reading level is far below that of a 15 year old.
Can you provide an answer as to why a raid should give better gear than a dungeon that allows 2 people only? Skill is skill, so difficulty is not going to change from 20 people to 2 people, merely the numbers.
World of Warcraft is your only answer? Treadmill? Really? So again, who wants to do the same dungeon over and over just to eventually get an item that will increase your overall class power by 1%? Oh right, people who have nothing else better to do....uh, so why should the rest of us have to be subjected to that? There are other ways to create content that does not demand repetitive raiding.
Yeah, and like others say, time. Perhaps not all of us have all the time in the world to log in and play for like 4 hours. Did you ever think that options mean more here? If I login and only find one other person on who is available, this is why being able to do a 2 person dungeon would be nice. I logon and find 3 people? Good, we do a 4 person dungeon. Even better if dungeons have scaling.
People like options....you, however, like forcing your stupid version of hardcore down others' throats. Expect others to disagree with you because you have shallow interests.
I agree that there should be a reasonable level of equivelant gear for displays of skill with groups smaller than a raid group. However, the organization, work in getting all members of the guild keyed, attuned w/e the game chooses to call it for a raid and the commitment involved in order to execute a raid successfully deserves a unique reward. Without that, there would be no incentive for the players who do enjoy and/or have the time for that aspect of the game. I myself am not a player who is willing to commit the time, energy or playtime to it but I do recognize that the individuals that do should be rewarded for that.I can agree on the unique reward for raids, however, it shouldn't be the highest gear out there. I mean, people who raid always claim they love raiding, so they should be raiding mainly for the fun of raiding. Otherwise, why would raids be the endgame?
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
I liked older EQ more, and I would like to flush the over use of instances down the toilet...I want to play a massive multiplayer, not a lobby, lets go to a sterile enviornment where only my group exists....
Their was negatives about open world everything, but I think they made things more exciting and fun, atleast for dungeons...
I use to lead raids, raided and such, it could be very stressful in old EQ, and some instance stuff for raiding wasn't the worst thing ever, but when dungeons and all raid content became instanced, it sucked....I would love to atleast get back to 50/50...
On the flip side, I am tired of the token/point/daily instance grinds, they are so artificial and boring, I will take grinding in a dungeon for a rare drop any day of the week, over me doing the same daily gauntlet everyday like a checklist.
I think there is a large group of folks who just can't or don't know how to raid. That or will not commit the time to learning there class or educating themselves on content.
I have seen this time after time and I still see this even in SWTOR just even running in 4man flashpoints. Folks just want to FACEROLL everything with no CC and wiping on easy shit.
You get folks who don't CC.
You get Tanks who can't LOS pull, Tank more than 1 mob, or have their backs agains the wall for knockbacks.
You get healers who can't manage their Focus/Energy, or simply DPS and not heal.
You get DPS who can't Focus fire making it harder for healers to keep the tank up.
i don't care that raids offer the best gear in most games. the only use for the gear is rading/more raiding. the gear progression is there so that the raid's progress. why shouldn't it be the "best" gear? it in no way affects people that don't raid. people do the raids for a greater challenge. the rewards allow them to do the next line of challenges. it's a progressive treadmill. the elitism that is brought about in games, is more due to the facct that people who can't or don't complete raids complain because they can't get the "best gear". but that gear doesn't matter. you get gear rewards based on the content you complete in every game. why do people need tiered rading gear if they only do dungeons?
I've got the straight edge.
i just cant stand the elitist attitude of "raiders"
i am getting older, my reflexes arent that sharp anymore, my arthritis is getting worse, and i really don't want to feel like playing a game has to be a second job where i have to spend time out of game researching strats/builds, poring over spreadsheets, farming tradeskill mats to properly min/max, or put up with the screaming whiny d bags that seem to infest every raid i have ever been on, the ones who make a point to bully, denigrate, **** on, and yell at other people for small errors, yet they think they are perfect and never make mistakes.....and when they are called out for making a mistake they quickly turn it on someone else.....
yeah, to hell with those people, i would rather drop out of the rat race and enjoy games on my own terms in my own way, and on my own time, with people who are actually enjoyable to be around.....
i was obviously not alone because the guild i was in was a raiding guild from EQ through WoW, and when the whole raid thing came up again in SWTOR, people really didnt give a damn about raiding and just sort of did their own thing, and the "raiders" got all pissy about it and raiding is dead for the guild now
But wait.. in 90% of other threads everyone and their mother raids and it's the easiest thing ever.. they did Naxx in Vanilla WoW and didn;t think Illidan was hard at all, and they grouped up for ranks in FFXI and they were ... I'm so confused...
don't be confused. more than 90% of the internet lies. :P
I've got the straight edge.
raiding isn't hard. i maintain that. the biggest challenge to raiding is simply getting the guys together who won't ragequit and who are all together at the same time.
no dungeon is hard once you've figured out when to jump back, when to move.
until they get a LOT more random and different, raids will always be the port of call for lazy devs.
i for one really want to see hard gaming. a challenge. yet, the majority of those playing in raiding guilds seem less concerned with a challenge and more concerned with not wiping, not failing, and not actually having to try. the rest seem more desperate to ride the coat tails and be "walked" through everything to getz their gearz. lulz.
gw2 making wiping a pretty much normal component of gameplay is awesome, because i'm hoping it will retrain everyone to "keep trying" rather than ragequitting at the drop of a hat. because those challenging moments, when you've struggled and struggled despite being under-geared or not using the "right" make-up. that's awesome.
raids have become mostly maths and social politics.
yawn.
time for a new way of thinking and some challenging gameplay. i say bring in the random. make the bosses totally unpredictable. scaling's a nice addition, but they need to be unpredictable.
i want to wipe. i want to die. because then, when i nail that boss, i want to feel i've actually accomplished something.
Well.. both is true. Raids are hard, and the easiest thing ever. Just a matter of definition.
Raids are hard, because you have to invest a lot of time before you even start to raid. You need the right gear, minimum requirement, you have to listen to your raid leader(and we know ADHD is common nowadays), you have to inform you/or figure out by try and error, what to do at any raid boss, and so on and so forth. But if all those preparation is done, and all those 40+ ppl are able to do what they meant to do, it is the easiest thing ever. There is no adaption of the mobs/environment, they will not change their pattern, after all it is just pre scripted pve. So it is hard in the sense of time requirement and the necessity to pay attention, and do just what is asked from you, and not more. But there is no reaction to new situations or adaptability required.
And now the difference to pvp. As long as there is no gear or level requirement, you dont need a lot of preparation time, you just need to know how to play your character and know your skills. BUT, you have to react immediately to new situations, you need a good adaptability, a good hand eye coordination, fast straight reasoning, because your counterpart/s are humans like you, and if they are able to react faster or react with the better tactical approach, they will win. Thats another definition of hard. And in pvp it will be always as hard as your enemy(the other human) is.
As i said, just a matter of definition.
Lets say, raiding is like building a treehouse, once you knew how to build it and you have all parts to build it, it isnt really hard, and pvp is more like chess, it becomes as hard as your counterpart is. (well.. chess is pvp too, therefore not the best analogy)
Raiding shouldn't be hard, but it is, because people cannot focus and do what they are supposed to do for the most part....Raiding is simple, the boss does a script, or even a script with some random actions, players follow a script, based on the AI script and it's random actions...The tedious part is trying to figure out that script...
I didn't play WoW, it wasn't my thing, but speaking back to EQ 72 man raids, all it took was for 1 of those 72 people to do something stupid to wipe everyone...So it was hard to get 72 people together that could keep focus and do what they were supposed to do...The acts you were asking were not 'hard', but the human nature made it hard.....
Games are not complicated for the most part, but it can be amazing how people cannot grasp some of the simple concepts of even group play...I don't buy that someone can't raid due to skill though, I think about anyone should be able to pull themselves together for a raid if they try hard enough to fight whatever ADD they have, if they want to do something...Time wise, yeah, I buy that....I did some raids for epics in EQ that were 3 day events, like a enchanter boss that spawned within a 48 hour window, plus/minus some hours or something like that after the plane of fear was cleared initially (then you had to kill the respawns every 'x' hours), so I get not being able to do things like this or even the smaller 2-6 hour things...The epic stuff was not the norm. though.
So yeah, not 'hard', but difficult to get everyone doing what they are supposed to do, for the set amount of time.
This is my biggest detterent in raiding. I'm probably going to be flamed for this but raiding tends to bring a game back to the snails pace of games ike SWG (I loved it because it was my first mmo but honestly I prefer the current design of mmorpg's which issue greater rewards on a quicker pace).
Spending 1.5-2 hours per trip to maybe get a chance at one piece of something when i will have to run that same content over and over doesn't appeal to me at all anymore.
I think the difficulty may play a small part in it in that with the harder content most people need to be on point for the raid to be successfull and that tends to be alot of people to have to depend on.
Which leads me then to the problem that people who raid tend to avoid raidin with those who don't or tend to releagte them to "privates" in the army often times.
I have the same problem as well; I like to raid but I just can't do it. My job does not have steady hours. I don't always have the same days off and I don't work the same hours every day. That means that I certainly can't commit to any kind of raiding schedule.
I'm sure there are others like me who for real life reasons can't really raid.