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When do we grow stagnant (when do we become those guys)?
mgilbrtsn
Member EpicPosts: 3,430
99% of people reach a point in their lives where they say 'remember when....' and look with great affection at some time in the past. They forget the problems during that time. Maybe because they were young and didn't realize the problems around them, or they weren't yet in a position to be affected by events. In this same vain, most people reach a point where they stop trying to 'keep up' with technology. The old Razor phone was great. What do I need with a smart phone?
This is a rather belabored point of asking the same question regarding MMOs.
At what point do we seem to reach the same place in our evolution. The fault doesn't rest with the MMOs themselves. They are always evolving and giving what the current population is looking for. Otherwise they would go broke. I know some young'uns who have only recently started playing their MMOs, and they are having a great time. No 'This is so much worse than XXXXXXXXX' .. 'Back then, MMOs were better because XXXXXXX'. No, they enjoy the games and have a great time, which is the point of the whole thing (I think). In terms of MMO time, we are like dogs. for every 1 year in the real world seems to be like 7 - 10 in the MMO world. People who have been playing for 3 or 4 years, seem to get caught up in the stagnation.
My questions are simple (Why do we becomse stuck in our ways quicker than the average, as it seems to me. For a technologically inclined group, why do we stagnate so simply?? After careful reflection, when did you begin to notice the 'back when XXXX' phenom was happening?
I'm really tired, so I apologize ahead for a somewhat grim bent.
I self identify as a monkey.
Comments
we didn't grow stagnent, the younger crowd will settle for anything. Just my opinion.
Currently bored with MMO's.
I have to agree. Case in point, I recently went back to Everquest (well, a version more like the one I played in '99 rather than what's available today) and it reminded me of some of the things I didn't care for in the game that I'd forgotten, however after getting used to the controls and UI again it will always be my go-to MMORPG just because what it offers in atmosphere and community is much, much better than all AAA games I've played in the last few years. Today's MMOs (particularly themepark style) have much improved hack & slash, action-oriented gameplay and much flashier graphics but otherwise lack any kind of depth- sadly, as I've said before you can't teach people to have higher standards.
edit: typo
Bad analogies are just...bad.
While MMO's have improved in many areas, there's no denying that they also removed alot of the features and mechanics that some of us favored because the greater masses didn't care for them.
Doesn't mean we're stagnant at all, if we're going to use analogies it would be better to imagine what would it be like if smart phones didn't actually make phone calls anymore because more people prefer to text/facebook/twitter instead.
Modern MMO's are more like that example, lots of flash and style, but a bit short on depth and features.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think you will become one of "them" once you watch an entire generation or two experience something from only the standpoint of the current model of the genre.
When my oldest son was old enough to play release WoW with me, and I realized that this was his only experience and knowledge of the genre. That was when I started talkiing in "back then" terms. That was because I began trying to explain to him how much the genre evolved.
I do not think that most "back then'ers" mean it in a derogetory way. However, alot of newer gamers have a feeling of entitlement and an "I want it Now!, For Free and exactly the way I want itor I will stomp my feet and hold my breath" attitude towards the industry. Alot of "Back theners" remember when MMOs were still a new concept. Bugs, glitches and accepting the game for what it was and not expecting Devs to twist the game to what we wanted in order to make it easier was just the way it was. The community was a community, and they were a bit more patient because you understood it was something you dealt with for the unique experience of this type of gaming. (we also had to level uphill! In the snow! Barefoot! hehe)
You will always forget about the problems that were intertwined with fond memories of the past. That just comes with the territory. For most, their memories of when they first got lost in a MMORPG equates to an experience almost equivelant to an emotional one. This makes people very passionate about it.
Nitpicking at the current trends in the genre and recalling what worked well in comparison, in my opinion, is not giving up on technology. There are just things that got lost with the MMO community and genre that were special about it in the process of churning out games that want to make everything better, faster and easier. Its like cars, no matter how much the new models may be superior, older models have a class and style that normally is associated with the memories of a period of life it is associated with.
It's not just the games, it's the gamers. I spent a while playing a Japanese game SMT: Imagine (aka mega-ten). Even in the English language server, it was pretty clear that it wasn't your normal MMO crowd. With very difficult combat and a strong death penalty, it is common for people to call out on chat needing a ressurection.
Can you imagine calling out on a US WoW server that you needed a rez and having some stranger stop what they're doing and make a several minute trek to help you out?
I guess what I'm saying is the good old days might not be just about good old games, but good old players as well.
This use to be the standard operating procedure in classic EQ. /ooc was always beaming with "looking for a port", "need a bind" "need a rez". But that is because the game was then geared to force the playerbase to rely on one another for these features. Once the genre eased up on that, and brought in fast and easy ways for travel, bind points, rezzing at tombstones etc. You took the community dependance off one another and ended up with the single player MMORPG.well to a lot of people this was a good thing, it meant you didn't need to depend on the small population of people that tended to make up the people that could do those things.
that was part of the reason they eased the requirements, because players wanted them to, this didn't happen in a vacuum here, there was years of complaints that carried over.
heck i remember daoc advertizing about how they were going to remove the hated time sinks that eq had, like mana regeneration and death. people were thrilled by the time sink removal in wow, they dropped eq for it just for that! after all there was at least one dev wow had i remember who used to be a big name in eq years ago.
it's true that the time sinks and asking for buffs any other things created a kind of community, but WoW showed that it was really just a flawed one that could be created some other way.
what hurts modern communties isn't a lack of community created by artifical handy caps and dependence, but a lack of reason to group and interact that is fun.
maybe if game designers would stop creating games with exp halfing group and money mechanics, people might want to group.
maybe if game designers would make it an advantage to group over soloing instead of punishing groups so much they might get people to group.
they need to add more things that make inviting others more fun that just someone else to shorten the monster life bar faster.
of course it isn't all the designers fault; 90% of the player base on most games these days are anti-social 12 year-olds or have the mentality of one. even my first mmo, eq is now filled to the brim with these people and i couldn't go back, the game is now just awful.
When you stop having new experiences and also for most things in one area, the law of diminishing returns applies. Most mmorpgs don't seem to be that "massive" after trying more than a few.
On the one hand someone new to the genre will have easier time of experiencing some new things, but on the other hand most mmorpgs don't create something that is new or deeper game than other mmorpgs; similar business models and player behaviors dictate that?
I think something like EvE has more promise in this respect for mmorpg players who have gone through some previous titles level 0-100 x number of times, then you are looking for a game that breaks that same old level-up experience; maybe where your actions affect the gameworld or the other players you participate with, with more consequence and vica-versa. [Edit: namely designs that emphasize players to create their own experiences]
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
it wasn't the modern eq1 though, the community in eq1 is awful now, it isn't any different than the ones in other games. well okey there are worse communities, like the one in dcuo and aion, at least in eq1 they don't spew vile racist,sexist, and homophobic hate.
other than that they are the same...
I don't dare try the current F2P incarnation SOE has- I mean really, there is a reason I left when I did. I like the community I've found where I am, it reminds me a lot of the community (minus specific friends and my old guild) I had back then and it really makes me think that it's because of how inconvenient the game was and how other players could remove that inconvenience. Today's EQ1 is not nearly so inconvenient and other players don't affect it to that degree anymore.
It's sad to hear that the actual live version is a cesspool.
This use to be the standard operating procedure in classic EQ. /ooc was always beaming with "looking for a port", "need a bind" "need a rez". But that is because the game was then geared to force the playerbase to rely on one another for these features. Once the genre eased up on that, and brought in fast and easy ways for travel, bind points, rezzing at tombstones etc. You took the community dependance off one another and ended up with the single player MMORPG.well to a lot of people this was a good thing, it meant you didn't need to depend on the small population of people that tended to make up the people that could do those things.
that was part of the reason they eased the requirements, because players wanted them to, this didn't happen in a vacuum here, there was years of complaints that carried over.
heck i remember daoc advertizing about how they were going to remove the hated time sinks that eq had, like mana regeneration and death. people were thrilled by the time sink removal in wow, they dropped eq for it just for that! after all there was at least one dev wow had i remember who used to be a big name in eq years ago.
it's true that the time sinks and asking for buffs any other things created a kind of community, but WoW showed that it was really just a flawed one that could be created some other way.
what hurts modern communties isn't a lack of community created by artifical handy caps and dependence, but a lack of reason to group and interact that is fun.
maybe if game designers would stop creating games with exp halfing group and money mechanics, people might want to group.
maybe if game designers would make it an advantage to group over soloing instead of punishing groups so much they might get people to group.
they need to add more things that make inviting others more fun that just someone else to shorten the monster life bar faster.
of course it isn't all the designers fault; 90% of the player base on most games these days are anti-social 12 year-olds or have the mentality of one. even my first mmo, eq is now filled to the brim with these people and i couldn't go back, the game is now just awful.
This is where i would have to disagree. Those mechanics were not a flaw, removing those "perceived" flaws is a primary reason for the diminished community. We no longer depend on one another because the game provides us with easy access to all those things which forced us to congregate, communicate and cooperate. Why do I need to build a good rapport with in game peers when there is nothing that forces us to rely on one another for progression? Unless you are talking about end game raiding which a relatively large percentage of the playerbase isnt involved and/or interested in. We can agree to disagree, however, making things easier may make things better for the casual player but it makes the need for cooperative communication and relationship building in game much less necessary. Many of the people who left for any number of themeparks to avoid "artificial handicaps and dependance" eventually tired of it and miss the community and friendships that evolved from those handicaps and dependencies.Its funny, my husband and I were having this discussion last night. We of the old school MMO genre were thinking about why modern MMO's are so far removed from what they used to be.
It seems to boil down to the fact that EQ, although not the official first MMO, was the one that seemed to define the genre at the time. The graphical MMO was a new experience for players and game developers alike. There was nothing to compare to so really, creativity and technological constraints seemed to be the only factor in play when EQ was originally released.
In fact, computer games in general were not mainstream or popular like they are today. They were not easily accesible sometimes not user friendly and definitely a new frontier. Creativity and fitting a niche were key. Even the early days of WoW were still new and different within the genre. It wasnt until (in my opinion anyway) after BC was released that the trend of marketing to a wider audience became the key to business. This is when I feel the decline in new ideas and output started and instead a focus on numbers began.
For us older gamers, we were in on the ground floor so to speak. That feeling that something is fresh and unique is becoming increasingly harder to duplicate. Sadly it seems we have been there and we did do that. That doesn't mean I dont give up hope. With the fantastic advances in technology today, really there is almost little limit to what could be in the next MMO. There is no limit to imagination.
Most people who except that you are suppose to buy a house have 2.5 children and pay your taxes/bills at any cost while being extremely in debt because that is the american why. When you hit that point in your life that you really think there is nothing left that is when you become one of those people.
Age has nothing to do with it, it depends on what you want out of life and when you decide to quit trying to achieve more.
Hehe. I want clarification on this one. People who have a family, pay their billls and taxes and use credit lines are the stagnant ones? Here I was thinking the 40 year olds living in Moms basement were. Well... at least they have no bills.This only happens when what comes next is perceived as limited to what came previously, and causes disappointment.
There is no specific point in life when you say this it can happen at any age, it is relative and situational.
Player A started with MMO X, which had 1-10 features, they loved it but the point came to move on.
MMO Y came allong, it had 1-7 features made better than MMO X, and player B starts playing it and finds it great! But player A plays is and is dissapointed because feature 8-9 and 10 are not present so he says, "Man I remember when MMO's had 1-10 features".
Time passes...MMO Z comes allong, and it have features 1-5 but better made than MMO Y.
Player C plays it as their first MMO and they Love it.
Player B is dissapointed, saying "I remember when MMO Y had 1-7 features"
Player A as well saying, "but I remeber when MMO X had 1-10 features"
Now you have 1 player that is happy whith what he has because he has no other point of comparison, and two players unhappy because they do have points of comparison.
Now consider that this genre is still very young, only 15 years have passed since Ultima Online (considering thsi the first grand appeal MMO)...
A player that was 15 years old back then is still a young 30 years old adult today....a player tha was 30 then is 45 today...both maybe saying the same thing....independently of their age difference.
It is not as if there are multiple generations between players here in that short span of time like for instance someone remembering the T model Car, or Cars from the 40's, 60's or 70's compared to cars of today....
And for people to contemplate a product that is still "young" in the grand scheme of things this only means that the quality of the producs has gone downwards in that short span of time...not upwards. MMOs today have better technology, but do not have better gameplay.
That is the reality in my opinion in the genre.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Your point is a valid one. It is like the guy who was a big star at school games telling those same stories everytime he has a little beer. Or some say beer, burgers, candy bars,etc., used to taste better than they do now. Maybe it is a little of both, unrealistic memories of past games and underperforming new ones. A bad combination. Makes me sad. Think I will have a beer. Did I ever tell you about the time my High School Football Team...
Ballerinas are always on their toes. Why don't they just get taller ballerinas?
"So understand, don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years, faceup make a stand, and realise your living in the golden years."
Life's like that, memories are nice but their just memories. enjoy the moment.
For all you know you could look back in 5 years times and say "yeah they were some interesting times back then"
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I think the younger crowd is far pickier, far more savvy at getting and diseminating information than the majority in our generation ever was.
Edit - and there actually have been a few studies showing that they are far better at multi-tasking than the average person in our generation (35+) ever was.
As for candy bars, burgers, etc, there is a very real reason why these taste different than they used to. Its because recipies have changed to cut costs. Less-healthy ingredients that are cheaper to produce have replaced what used to be in those foods (for example, the heavy use of high fructos corn syrup instead of sugar).
Corners are cut sacrificing quality for efficiency and cost. Like how large snickers bars now come as 2 separate nuggets leaving an empty space in the middle of the package where tasty chocolate an nougat used to be. Companies often try to mask these corner cuts by marketing them as a bonus...and most consumers fall for it.
MMOs are no different. Its why you see the same quests (kill X of enemy Y for example) rewrapped under a different hastily thrown together short story hundreds of times over. That way publishers can say "Our game has thousands of quests!" and consumers inevitably eat it up thinking they're getting more content when they're just being tricked into repeating the same content over and over again.
Those of us who know better can spot this easily. We're not fooled by this ploy because we've had the experience of something totally different. Those who dont know the difference constantly come up with the "rose-colored glasses" theroy because they aren't able to fathom things being any different, and for whatever reason cant imagine the possibility of people actually liking something they dont like.
There was a recent thread asking if people would play a 100% PvE game. I was kind of sad to see so many people saying things like "No one would ever make a game like that! It would fail instantly!" when, in fact, there actually have been plenty of games like this that have done quite well.
So no, its not a matter of not remembering "problems" of past games, or seeing the "good old days" fondly through rose-colored glasses (At least not in most cases. I cant say that this NEVER happens) but a matter of those players having a wider perspective, and having experienced more play styles than the ones typically pointing the finger.
Are we really giving advice to people on how to approach life now? Particularly to individuals who have probably been around more than a couple Sundays?
I am thinking thats alot like hiring a tour guide to China from someone who has never been there in many cases. Maybe we should stick to video games and leave life lessons out of it. It may save some embarassment.
Just sayin...
I do not think anyone is trying to say how others should live. Yet the OP is creating a false premise.
People grow Critical not Stagnant, because they accumulate experience every time they play another MMO and form better opinions about MMO's.
So in conclusion, it is the MMO's that have changed, not the people.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
The basic premise of your point is a bad one and fails to look in the right places for the problems.
Even what you say here is so staggeringly flawed it's beyond responding to.
99% of people reach a point in their lives where they say 'remember when....' and look with great affection at some time in the past. They forget the problems during that time. Maybe because they were young and didn't realize the problems around them, or they weren't yet in a position to be affected by events. In this same vain, most people reach a point where they stop trying to 'keep up' with technology. The old Razor phone was great. What do I need with a smart phone?
This is a rather belabored point of asking the same question regarding MMOs.
At what point do we seem to reach the same place in our evolution. The fault doesn't rest with the MMOs themselves. They are always evolving and giving what the current population is looking for. Otherwise they would go broke. I know some young'uns who have only recently started playing their MMOs, and they are having a great time. No 'This is so much worse than XXXXXXXXX' .. 'Back then, MMOs were better because XXXXXXX'. No, they enjoy the games and have a great time, which is the point of the whole thing (I think). In terms of MMO time, we are like dogs. for every 1 year in the real world seems to be like 7 - 10 in the MMO world. People who have been playing for 3 or 4 years, seem to get caught up in the stagnation.
My questions are simple (Why do we becomse stuck in our ways quicker than the average, as it seems to me. For a technologically inclined group, why do we stagnate so simply?? After careful reflection, when did you begin to notice the 'back when XXXX' phenom was happening?
I'm really tired, so I apologize ahead for a somewhat grim bent.
I think people are far more complicated than this. I know a few gamers that have been playing since UO and EQ. They don't have any problems with trying new games that come out. Some of this might have something to do with their personalities and what motivates them.
They are not afraid to learn new things.
I do know some gamers that fit what you are writing about. But, in each case, they don't seem to evolve. They like routine. (The like routine in games, life, career, etc...) They get comfortable in their routine and stay there.
It's not about fighting, it's about balance. It's not about enlightenment, it's about balance. It's not about balance.
Now THIS is spot on.
There has been a real growth in these emo community analysis threads where some folks try to examine the people around them... even MMORPG.com runs articles on it.
It's pointless and it's boring.
I agree, lets get back to games.
I do not think anyone is trying to say how others should live. Yet the OP is creating a false premise.
People grow Critical not Stagnant, because they accumulate experience every time they play another MMO and form better opinions about MMO's.
So in conclusion, it is the MMO's that have changed, not the people.
My post was not directed at the OP, however I would rather leave it as a blanket statement as I did not want to do a quote and blast post. Nuff said. Just did not want the OP to be discouraged thinking his post was taken the wrong way or my post was directed at him.