It's a really slippery slope, game developers will keep taking small steps towards more P2W if gamers let them. I say no to any form of P2W, if others want to play those games then go ahead, I won't support it.
As the industry looks contentedly upon their successful promotion of the pure profit cash shop model to the gullible guy that actually believes the shilling hogwash and thinks it's being done to actually benefit them...
Desensitisation is complete . Part 2 of the plan is initiated.
Start moving Project 'Pay to Win is OK' forward.
Start slowly though, let the build up be gradual. We don't want those frogs jumping out of the water.
Activate the alt accounts and creative marketers and send them in.
This is the truth.
/agree
+1
It went something like :
Selling some limited edition / annual / etc crap for ppl that miseed them -> additional payed services -> microtransations -> "CS are ok if vanity" -> CS are just ok -> CS are ok in P2P games -> F2P is the future -> P2W have it place (current) -> P2W is the norm and is ok (close future).
So my answer:
- You can go f**k yourself.
I am not participating in that (not playing any mmorpg atm) and I will not give my money to industry until I get good game and good business model (P2P without any microtransactions or maybe well done B2P ) in ONE PACKAGE.
Good game with bad business model or bad game with good business model (hello Swtor!) are just not gonna make me spend.
Originally posted by Gruug If the games in question were truly F2P, wouldn't it mean that players/developers/press would be talking about all the things you can do for free?
It is no scam. F2P game means a game with no upfront payment, no more no less.
I am just amazed that every discussion, article or debate about so-called free to play games always gravites towards what players PAY. If the games in question were truly F2P, wouldn't it mean that players/developers/press would be talking about all the things you can do for free? Instead the arguement is couched in terms like "small payments" or "packages" that all cost real money. Where oh where dose that "free" come in again? Free to play is a scam.....wake up.
It is all in the perception (and numbers).
For every player that pays in a F2P game, there are 9 that do not. Those 9 are enjoying the game without paying anything.
The reason we dont hear about how good F2P games are, is that for every player that plays a F2P game (paying or not) there are 10 non players that want to tell them how bad the game really is. People love to complain... this is the internet after all. Those who spam the most, use the most CAPS, and generally ramble the most incoherently.... win.
Yes, this is just an EPeen contest, and the P2Win discussion is just a way that someone can demonstrate how much bigger theirs is. They dont care if people enjoy the game. They dont care if the vast majority of them are not paying anything. They only care how they can make themselves look better, by calling others names, and insulting their behavior.
It's a really slippery slope, game developers will keep taking small steps towards more P2W if gamers let them. I say no to any form of P2W, if others want to play those games then go ahead, I won't support it.
No company will call its game a P2W-game. It makes no difference what they actually sell in the CS. They will always spin it some way and try to convince you its not. They could sell max level characters, stat boost books that combined are like god-mode or gear that is better than raid gear. They would still tell you. - Well, its not really P2W and it only saves time and its possible to play anyway and so on.
And if you try to see things from the gamers POV and explain why its P2W the games fans and the companies followers will defend it and repeat whatever excuces the companies PR-people are using and want people to believe.
Originally posted by Hurvart It makes no difference what they actually sell in the CS. They will always spin it some way and try to convince you its not. They could sell max level characters, stat boost books that combined are like god-mode or gear that is better than raid gear. They would still tell you. - Well, its not really P2W and it only saves time and its possible to play anyway and so on.
That definitely sounds like a reasonable business - "No, you do not want our product. No, we do not want you to purchase anything from us. Please ignore anything we will ever try to offer you."
We wouldn't be having this discussion if most MMOs didn't have bad loot grinds, at least in pve endgame. When you have 10-25 or more people fighting over 3 pieces of loot I can see frustration boil and I get it, they want another way to get loot. But to me isn't you know make loot buyable with just cash, to me the solution would be to make better systems to distribute loot. Attack the problem at the source.
This a well written and thoughtful article Richard. Unfortunately you forgot the number one rule when communicating. "Know you audience."
Your audience is all but immune to logic. So for the most part your words will fall on deaf ears.
Most of them are as superstitious and backwards as their ancestors from the dark ages. They are terrified of any change and looking to burn any perceived witches at the stake.
This a well written and thoughtful article Richard. Unfortunately you forgot the number one rule when communicating. "Know you audience."
Your audience is all but immune to logic. So for the most part your words will fall on deaf ears.
Most of them are as superstitious and backwards as their ancestors from the dark ages. They are terrified of any change and looking to burn any perceived witches at the stake.
Yeah I should embrace ALL change cause if not I am backwards.
Lol
I embrace those changes I like and / or those that benefit me.
This change that article is about - I don't like and also it does not benefit me.
Simple as that.
------------
You can use 'backwards' , 'dark age' ,' change is always best' silly arguments as long as you like.
This a well written and thoughtful article Richard. Unfortunately you forgot the number one rule when communicating. "Know you audience."
Your audience is all but immune to logic. So for the most part your words will fall on deaf ears.
Most of them are as superstitious and backwards as their ancestors from the dark ages. They are terrified of any change and looking to burn any perceived witches at the stake.
Yeah I should embrace ALL change cause if not I am backwards.
Lo
I embrace those changes I like and / or those that benefit me.
This change that article is about - I don't like and also it does not benefit me.
Simple as that.
----------
You can use 'backwards' , 'dark age' ,' change is always best' silly arguments as long as you like.
Such prmitive smack-talk does not work.
Not single argument in there.
Well the future is coming whether you like it or not. You can run but you can't hide.
Well the future is coming whether you like it or not. You can run but you can't hide.
That was not what disussion was about wasn't it?
Besides I always have a choice - I can choose not to play at all - which kinda is not that hard once you try it - on mmorpg hiatus here for over 10 months and counting ,with not satisfying business models as one of main reason
Games that have pay to win will never have a enough players to ever be considered reputable.
Does anyone care or talk about most of these asian f2p games that one has to spend literally hundreds on to be competitive? No.
Pay to Win will never be mainstream. It can't be. There are not a lot of folk in this world who would spend 100+ dollars per month on buying temporary MMO power.
Pay to Win is not the future. There is nothing to worry about. However, cash shops are.
Games that have pay to win will never have a enough players to ever be considered reputable.
Does anyone care or talk about most of these asian f2p games that one has to spend literally hundreds on to be competitive? No.
Pay to Win will never be mainstream. It can't be. There are not a lot of folk in this world who would spend 100+ dollars per month on buying temporary MMO power.
Pay to Win is not the future. There is nothing to worry about. However, cash shops are.
Will it be mainstream? No
Are there lots of people in the world that spend $100+ on their hobbies? Yes.
There will definitely always be a market for P2W. However I do believe that it will be more about buying xp boosts. Along with other kinds of timesavers and convience items.
pay to win. hmm. I have seen it alot on most facebook games. In lotro a bit too. However in the best free to play games its typically mostly cosmetic items or exp boosts and the like. My 2 favorite F2P mmos are League of legends and Wizard101 and while you can buy champions in league of legends you can earn them too (However earning all of the champion will likely be near impossible unless you play alot....). In W101 you can buy really good gear from the item shop but there is equally good gear droped from bosses or crafted.
I think the writer of this article vastly overestimates the intelligence of some gamers these days. I mean, pay to win is an abomination. Think about it.
You pay, to get an advantage over other gamers that worked their way to get to a certain level. Meaning, you paid to skip part of the game. So, if you paid to skip part of the game, why play the game then? Why did you pay for a game to skip it?
It means you paid for a blatant cash grab, paid for nothing but to flex your e-peen. If you want that, we already have a MMO for that called 'real life'.
I don't see how anyone can promote pay to win and this article seems to try 'lessen' the hate against the pay to win mentality. I don't care about flawed reviews giving 9/10's to 5/10's, I mean, you guys need to earn your money.
But what I do care about is that you guys are slowly forsaking the spirit of gaming in favor of pure greed. Why give up the ideals of having to work hard to achieve something in a MMO? What meaning does it have to put so much effort into obtaining that 'cool high end armor' if somebody else can buy it in a even stronger version?
TLDR: Why even play a game if you can pay to get it played for you?
The problem with all of these definitions of pay to win is that they're only defining Win in relation to combat. MMOs have many, many more features than combat and people play for many different reasons, so while your new little red dress purchase hasn't given you an advantage over your combat enemy, it has obliterated my crafting empire.
What is your definition of 'Win' ?
That's a really interesting point. I have never really understood the debate (or the heat attached to it) as I am a PvE player who avoids PvP (and therefore the debate is a bit irrelevant in combat terms as several people have pointed out). However I have spent quite a bit (though not K's!) on cosmetics in Vindictus - but this only works for me because (IMO) the cosmetics (graphics) on offer are damn fine. So to get me to part with my money (which I know many people will see as stupid) the developers have had to come up with cosmetic items which were high-calibre. I will freely admit I have never really looked at the crafting system in Vindictus - I think it is pretty much of a lame add-on and people play for the combat so not sure your point applies Cyberdeck. What games were you thinking of?
Are there suckers out there? Sure - I am one as explained above. But I am only going to be a sucker if I think my pixels can be made to look really good!!
This a well written and thoughtful article Richard. Unfortunately you forgot the number one rule when communicating. "Know you audience."
Your audience is all but immune to logic. So for the most part your words will fall on deaf ears.
Most of them are as superstitious and backwards as their ancestors from the dark ages. They are terrified of any change and looking to burn any perceived witches at the stake.
Comments
It's a really slippery slope, game developers will keep taking small steps towards more P2W if gamers let them. I say no to any form of P2W, if others want to play those games then go ahead, I won't support it.
+1
It went something like :
Selling some limited edition / annual / etc crap for ppl that miseed them -> additional payed services -> microtransations -> "CS are ok if vanity" -> CS are just ok -> CS are ok in P2P games -> F2P is the future -> P2W have it place (current) -> P2W is the norm and is ok (close future).
So my answer:
- You can go f**k yourself.
I am not participating in that (not playing any mmorpg atm) and I will not give my money to industry until I get good game and good business model (P2P without any microtransactions or maybe well done B2P ) in ONE PACKAGE.
Good game with bad business model or bad game with good business model (hello Swtor!) are just not gonna make me spend.
It is no scam. F2P game means a game with no upfront payment, no more no less.
You just use false implication of the term...
It is all in the perception (and numbers).
For every player that pays in a F2P game, there are 9 that do not. Those 9 are enjoying the game without paying anything.
The reason we dont hear about how good F2P games are, is that for every player that plays a F2P game (paying or not) there are 10 non players that want to tell them how bad the game really is. People love to complain... this is the internet after all. Those who spam the most, use the most CAPS, and generally ramble the most incoherently.... win.
Yes, this is just an EPeen contest, and the P2Win discussion is just a way that someone can demonstrate how much bigger theirs is. They dont care if people enjoy the game. They dont care if the vast majority of them are not paying anything. They only care how they can make themselves look better, by calling others names, and insulting their behavior.
No company will call its game a P2W-game. It makes no difference what they actually sell in the CS. They will always spin it some way and try to convince you its not. They could sell max level characters, stat boost books that combined are like god-mode or gear that is better than raid gear. They would still tell you. - Well, its not really P2W and it only saves time and its possible to play anyway and so on.
And if you try to see things from the gamers POV and explain why its P2W the games fans and the companies followers will defend it and repeat whatever excuces the companies PR-people are using and want people to believe.
That definitely sounds like a reasonable business - "No, you do not want our product. No, we do not want you to purchase anything from us. Please ignore anything we will ever try to offer you."
No, this does not sound ridiculous at all.
is there a plague? yes, its called "pay me 15 every month or wont play my game"
buy to play FTW (no pay2win, no sub)
Agree 100%!
I've got no problems with Pay-to-Win PvP as long as it doesn't effect the PvE gameplay. Pay-to-Win and PvP were born for one-another in my opinion.
We wouldn't be having this discussion if most MMOs didn't have bad loot grinds, at least in pve endgame. When you have 10-25 or more people fighting over 3 pieces of loot I can see frustration boil and I get it, they want another way to get loot. But to me isn't you know make loot buyable with just cash, to me the solution would be to make better systems to distribute loot. Attack the problem at the source.
This a well written and thoughtful article Richard. Unfortunately you forgot the number one rule when communicating. "Know you audience."
Your audience is all but immune to logic. So for the most part your words will fall on deaf ears.
Most of them are as superstitious and backwards as their ancestors from the dark ages. They are terrified of any change and looking to burn any perceived witches at the stake.
Yeah I should embrace ALL change cause if not I am backwards.
Lol
I embrace those changes I like and / or those that benefit me.
This change that article is about - I don't like and also it does not benefit me.
Simple as that.
------------
You can use 'backwards' , 'dark age' ,' change is always best' silly arguments as long as you like.
Such prmitive smack-talk does not work.
Not single argument in there.
Well the future is coming whether you like it or not. You can run but you can't hide.
That was not what disussion was about wasn't it?
Besides I always have a choice - I can choose not to play at all - which kinda is not that hard once you try it - on mmorpg hiatus here for over 10 months and counting ,with not satisfying business models as one of main reason
Games that have pay to win will never have a enough players to ever be considered reputable.
Does anyone care or talk about most of these asian f2p games that one has to spend literally hundreds on to be competitive? No.
Pay to Win will never be mainstream. It can't be. There are not a lot of folk in this world who would spend 100+ dollars per month on buying temporary MMO power.
Pay to Win is not the future. There is nothing to worry about. However, cash shops are.
Will it be mainstream? No
Are there lots of people in the world that spend $100+ on their hobbies? Yes.
There will definitely always be a market for P2W. However I do believe that it will be more about buying xp boosts. Along with other kinds of timesavers and convience items.
I think the writer of this article vastly overestimates the intelligence of some gamers these days. I mean, pay to win is an abomination. Think about it.
You pay, to get an advantage over other gamers that worked their way to get to a certain level. Meaning, you paid to skip part of the game. So, if you paid to skip part of the game, why play the game then? Why did you pay for a game to skip it?
It means you paid for a blatant cash grab, paid for nothing but to flex your e-peen. If you want that, we already have a MMO for that called 'real life'.
I don't see how anyone can promote pay to win and this article seems to try 'lessen' the hate against the pay to win mentality. I don't care about flawed reviews giving 9/10's to 5/10's, I mean, you guys need to earn your money.
But what I do care about is that you guys are slowly forsaking the spirit of gaming in favor of pure greed. Why give up the ideals of having to work hard to achieve something in a MMO? What meaning does it have to put so much effort into obtaining that 'cool high end armor' if somebody else can buy it in a even stronger version?
TLDR: Why even play a game if you can pay to get it played for you?
Q. Is there are a place for cash shops (pay to win)?
A. Yep, in the trash can.
I lold hard at this ridiculous post.