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General: Is There a Place for Pay to Win?
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
Revenue generation in free to play games is a critical component of a game's overall success. But what is the best way to achieve that? Find out in The Free Zone and then weigh in with your thoughts in the comments.
In reality, what we have is a situation where F2P designers have to decide on another aspect of game balance. What degree of advantage will they provide through how much spending in the item shop? This is a question without a universal answer. Do they want to focus on achieving a higher percentage of paying users or on attracting whales? These two things aren't mutually exclusive, but when we look at the bottom line, 100,000 users spending an average of $5 per month generate the same revenue as 10,000 paying $50.
Read more of Richard Aihoshi's The Free Zone: Is There a Place for Pay to Win?
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Comments
I have a strange viewpoint on this as someone who often was frustrated at the lack of solo or casual methods to obtain coveted equipment in WoW. I hated raiding, didn't really care to be part of a big hardcore guild, and as a rogue, wasn't wanted in PuGs particularly often.
Pay to win is bad, in the purest sense, but what about pay to be equal? If someone else's playstyle allows them to have PvP superiority over you due to gear or other character progress not available to the casual or solo'er, isn't that as bad? Obviously raiders wouldn't agree, and people who never want to pay for anything wouldn't agree.
But as part of a way to give players multiple paths to endgame gear, or anything at all that provides advantages in a competitive setting, I think monetary should be one of them. Perhaps how much you spend per week should be limited to mimic how fast a raiding guild could get outfitted, but I think it should be there. You wouldn't be paying to win, you'd be paying to have an equal footing on the battlefield, outside of skill. I think this is what everyone wants.
I don't think of the opportunity to have a fair chance at victory as a privilege of those who have more time on their hands, or more money on their hands, or more friends, etc. I feel it's a a right as someone who plays the game. At the very least, we should get as many methods as possible to getting that shot, and not be forced into doing things that simply aren't fun or force us to play a certain amount. I used to think it was cool to play mmorpgs 60 hours a week. Even besides having to work, the idea now seems absurd to me, when there are so many other things I could be doing instead of living such a shallow existance.
So pay to be competitive, sure. If there's a such thing as endgame supremacy in terms of items or abilities, I don't just think it's okay, I think it's the right thing to do.
On a final note, and why I'm an oddity when it comes to this, I hate having to pay extra for cosmetic stuff. I don't care for having to buy content, but I'll put up with it since most people will likely buy that. But to be someone who cares about character customization, and have my wallet pinched because of it, really irks me.
Is there a pay to win? Yeah, its called any free-to-play mmo that also has a cash shop.
shaiya would be one of them. aeriagames broke the game when they allow boost potion in the pvp. there are alot of them if you play almost all of the game. you should include that most hacker creator are consider pay to win too.
They need to make a pay to win full loot mmo. THat way you can spend your real money on items to make you feel like a skilled player. THen the skilled players could take your gear, and voila... The circle of life is complete.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Pay to win is absolutely ok for PvE centric games. Everyone with bought equipment is a boon for the party.
As the industry looks contentedly upon their successful promotion of the pure profit cash shop model to the gullible guy that actually believes the shilling hogwash and thinks it's being done to actually benefit them...
Desensitisation is complete . Part 2 of the plan is initiated.
Start moving Project 'Pay to Win is OK' forward.
Start slowly though, let the build up be gradual. We don't want those frogs jumping out of the water.
Activate the alt accounts and creative marketers and send them in.
I choose to not ever "pay to win", because when I do, I feel no joy whatsoever over any accomplishment I made. Money is absolutely no issue for me and that's why when I pay for advantages, I feel like I am cheating even though I know the rules allow it.
I can accept that other people beat me because of their time investment through actually playing the game, but I cannot accept myself winning due to opening my wallet. This is why I dislike the Pay-To-Win system, but not the Pay-To-Win players (unless they are being rude in general).
Pay to Win is an Abberation in my view.
In line to both the OP and the idea by Adam, what if gear was equal in the design of the game for everyone or not a factor. Would you need to Pay then to be equal?
If that notion is too alien for the Gear Educated Players, then what if you could obtain from the game equal gear by doing a quest rather than a raid? There would not be the need to have a Pay to be equal offering.
See to me all this is artificially implanted, MMO's have evolved to a point and have created a Culture of Players that are Dependent on Gear, now we are taking away this gear and the players excibit withdrawal symptoms, so now, we are trying to monetize their gear dosage.
You can get +10 gear by doing a quest and playing the game, you can get +20 gear if you pay 10$, you can get +30 gear if you pay 20$...how much of a Fix do you need?
In relation to the topic, I do not play any game that has Pay2Win offerings, I do not mind microtransactions, I do not mind Customization or Cosmetic offerings nor do I mind XP boost and the like, butthe moment someone can get something through a payment that is not otherwise available (And I do not mean having to grind 1-4 months for it in the game), my answer to that game is no. Pay2Win is a bad model in my view especially within the context of PvP.
Back to Adam's point, I am not dismissing the idea of paying to be equal entirelly, it merits additional thought and discussion.
Maybe microtransactions should be about an alternative way of progression to offer players a way to breech a certain gap in relation to others.
If your RL realities do not permit you for instance to join high end Raids in a Game such as WoW, for 4-6 hours at a time, you could maybe get through a payment an equal gear set.
But on the other hand it could be argued why would you need that gear in the first place? if not for Vanity there is no other reason if you do not raid. Gear progression in WoW is setup in such a way so that every set of gear helps you suceed in teh next Raid Level, if you never Raid, you do not need the Gear..strictly technically speaking...in reality however, we all like to feel equal with our peers, and it would not be fun to not be able to have something to look forward to even if you had to buy it with real money. It makes you feel the same as others.
All that of cource are problems inherent to the Progression System itself..but that would be another discussion.
Conclusion, Pay2Win, can kiss my a***, Pay for Equality, merits further thinking.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
This is the truth.
Actually, I don't care if a game to P2W as long as it has 0 PvP and isn't a grind. If someone wants to pay thousands just to kill a bit faster than me, more power to them. When it starts creating unfair, out of game advantages to people in PvP, or allows someone to level efficiently where you can't without it (Rappelz/Perfect World), then I have problems.
I never understood why games didn't just offer item shops with incredibly low rates. They'd essentially get what P2P companies got, if not more. If I could give a game $15 a month but choose specifically the things I wanted to get from that $15, and get my money's worth, I'd be thrilled. A costume here, maybe splurge on a mini-expansion, etc. If you don't make me feel like I'm being taken advantage of, you can absolutely have my monies. I'd look at it like doing my part to support the game I love. But when you start making it an uphill climb just to play unless I'm throwing tons of money at you, the alarms go off, and I go find something else to play.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Here in Lithuania, we have a lot of various private servers for MMORPGS and servers for other games (Minecraft, SAMP) who sell rank for money. You want to be an admin? Just fork a feeble amount of cash over to us. Got banned for something? Pay us, we will unban you. People don't even complain about this, they just pay and pay for this, some even pay more monthly then they would for a decent MMO. The problem is that most of the people who buy themselves an "admin" rank are usually little kids and they just disregard anything you tell them. Sometimes they even take away all your stuff and ban you.
What I mean to say is that pay to win shouldn't have a place in MMORPGS.
There's a sucker born every minute. And there are MMO's made for them too. I have no problem with that.
Once upon a time....
Actually, not all cash shops are bad, and not all f2p is pay-to-win. Neither of Turbine offerings are.
Pay-to-win should be strictly associated with cash shops that have a detrimemtal effect on pvp. Those I avoid because outspending someone just to be a winner is absurd. Pvp should be about skill not how deep your pocket book is.
If you spent a boatload of cashshop money in a pvp game my personal opinion is you are pathetic.
Pay2Win is just a term use to slander others. It doesn’t describe anything of value, it is just a term used to degrade how others play the game. Let me give a couple examples of how Pay2Win works.
Game A. Free players are restricted in the zones that they can access, the levels that they can achieve, and the loot that they can use. Players can pay to improve all of these, and in doing so, they have a HUGE advantage over non paying customers. Pay2Win, right?
Games that follow this Model: Wow, LOTRO, etc.
Game B. Free players can grind for equipment, it may take them months to get a single piece of gear. Players that pay can get the same gear instantly, and in doing so, they have a HUGE advantage over non paying customers. Pay2Win, right?
Games that follow this Model: Tribes Ascend
I think you can see where I am going here... but if not let me spell it out. Whenever the developer/publisher offers something for money, it is pay to win... because those that don’t pay, don’t get it. Does this unbalance the game, mostly no. Sure, there are some games that are unbalanced... but there are more that are unbalanced in non cash related issues, than are unbalanced in cash related issues. Games, especially MMO's get tweaked all of the time, because of balance issues.
The only time that Pay2Win is brought up is when someone wants to insult a game (and its player base). It is effectively the N word of the gaming industry. There is never really any use for it, unless you want to insult someone else.
its called EVE
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
"Is There a Place for Pay to Win?"
No.
First of all, Pay2Win is strictly a PVP term. There is no way possible for Pay2Win to be associated with PVE, as the definition of it is that it gives one player an unfair (or otherwise unobtainable) advantage or boost over ANOTHER PLAYER for the sole purpose of taking them down.
Examples of P2W are any game by PWE (Perfect World) or AGE (Aeria Games). Want to see what a P2W cash shop looks like, check out Shaiya. They even have an item called Pack of Win lol. And the nostrums are the very definition of what im talking about. Each one provides some stat boost for 1-3 hours that isnt available in game or to nonpaying players.
All of SOEs games (Vanguard coming soon) are now F2P, but the cash shop only allows you to be equal, not better, and by still keeping a sub you have access to all the best the game has to offer, nothing more. Turbine is very close to P2W except that you can get cash shop money ingame for menial tasks such as exploring certain areas and killing X number of mobs. These are examples of nonP2W and still F2P.
Cosmetic and convenience items have never been paytowin, and as long as you cant buy your way to be more powerful or have uber stats over a non paying player then who cares what you spend your money on. People appearantly forget the win part of PaytoWin.
I think this is an interesting and relevant question since it appears cash shops are here to stay. And up front I should say I haven't formed an opinion yet, though the imbalance of it makes me a bit queasy.
Back years ago when I was playing WoW, a friend said he and his wife had spent close to $7,000 in the cash shop playing EQ. They had multiple accounts but still... $7K??? He said it was the only way to get the best stuff and still keep their jobs. I added up everything I had spent for all those years in WoW, including expansions, fluff items and the sub; I'd spent about $650.
Ultimately, I think my opinion won't change anything. There will be P2W in some games and they will appeal to P2W players. But if AAA titles end up going this way, I probably will find something else to do.
The problem with all of these definitions of pay to win is that they're only defining Win in relation to combat. MMOs have many, many more features than combat and people play for many different reasons, so while your new little red dress purchase hasn't given you an advantage over your combat enemy, it has obliterated my crafting empire.
What is your definition of 'Win' ?
It's funny, all of these seething debates stem from one basic principle to me. MMOs were supposed to be virtual worlds. All of these perversions have greatly increased the market value of the MMO to heights MUD developers probably could have cared less about 15 years ago. This is a good thing overall I guess .. but it leaves a lot of us displeased.
Fedex questing is cool when you want to log in for 30 minutes and feel like you have accomplished something, but what is there like CiS from Vanguard in most games (long group oriented quest chains that require learning, patience and teamwork, at lvl 20 out of 50)?
Same thing happens when you talk about pay to win. Yes it will help connect a certain percentage of the population in ways they haven't before, but if things can be bought, it kind of ruins the achievement others have invested in. Neither is right. People without the time or desire to raid shouldn't be at a disadvantage ... but where does it end?
The killer for me is that Im apparently part of a minority of people who would prefer immersive communities to instant gratification ... but its also the killer of the otehr argument because they are a minority as well. The majority appears to be one big grey area that consists of as many people as publishers can cater to as possible, regardless of what that means for the core mechanics of the genre in general.
Even if it split, the genre would still be, as it is now, in the throws of a major identity crisis. It's not the Warcraft genre anymore, and it's not what it was before warcraft either. It's everything to everyone with an email address. It used to be something special to a core or people that enjoyed the challenge, and even in a lot of cases the "broken mechanics" that made them challenging. It wants to be able to offer RMT services to those that want that.
So yes I think there is room for pay to win .. just not in the games I play. Or more to the point, games that have pay to win are not likely to get any money from me, or playtime.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Hey, I have no objections if someone wants to open up an Opium Den and other consenting adults want to go in thier and throw away thier money. It's not my place to tell them what they can/can't do with thier own money.
But don't expect to find ME in there any time soon....and don't try to pawn off the idea that it's actualy somehow a GOOD thing for people or the hobby.
I look at those type of MMO's the same way I look at the sleezy casino's that ply senior citizens with free booze as they sit gambling away thier retirement savings, mindlessly pulling a lever on a brighyly lit slot machine in a room without windows or clocks.
They (the casino's) have a right to exist, but that doesn't mean they aren't rotten scumbags.
people only played korean f2ps because there was nothing else unless u wanted to play a monthly sub game. pay 2 win has ever only been liked by people who spend thousands on the game everyone else stayed because there was no other option
I really have to wonder why it's acceptable to spend hundreds of hours in a game - to get the best gear/buffs/etc - and that be considered OK, while others who spend hundreds of dollars in a game to get the best gear/buffs/etc are looked down upon?
Up until the late 90's - ALL games were effectively pay to win - and during those times of vastly smaller populations and far more robust communities - most of us never looked down upon those who could spend more money - and thus more time.
What's changed, and why?