Not only are cookie cutter builds inevitably going to happen (it always happens), I surmise that it will possibly be even worse due to how easy it is to switch everything out. I can already imagine a group of min/maxing barbs (for example) with nearly identical builds (whichever is the most efficient for the area they're killing mobs in). Then, as soon as they get close to a boss, it's time for everyone to go back to town and switch to whatever is optimum for boss killing.
Without any kind of restriction on build swapping (having to be out of combat first isn't really a restriction...), I fear this will be a rampant occurrence in the game. D2 may have made it fairly difficult to respec, but I think it was a good compromise for giving players a chance to rectify mistakes, while not trivilizing the entire aspect of actually having a build.
I don't think it matters at all.
At the end of the day you can CHOSE not to swap out your skills if you wish to restrict yourself in that regard, whereas others can chose to swap out as often and as flagrantly as they want. You can apply the same restrictions that Diablo 2 had to yourself and, if your friends are willing, the group of people you play with.
What other people are doing doesn't effect you, so why should you care? How other people play the game and how you play the game are two distinctly unrelated ideas in this regard.
I'd normally agree with that, but with a game that involves playing with random people (unless you just happen to have a few friends that play at the exact same times and you only play with them), you're most likely going to run into people who won't group with you (or kick you) for not playing as efficiently as possible. In a game where respeccing isn't an instant swap (like D2), you had more leverage, but in a game where you can swap out at anytime, people will expect you do what's considered "best", and why wouldn't you if it can be done instantly/effortlessly?
But sure, restricting yourself is fine if you only play with friends/people you know, and/or you don't care about getting kicked by randoms when they realize you're not going to play the way the mathematicians recommend.
I'd normally agree with that, but with a game that involves playing with random people (unless you just happen to have a few friends that play at the exact same times and you only play with them), you're most likely going to run into people who won't group with you (or kick you) for not playing as efficiently as possible. In a game where respeccing isn't an instant swap (like D2), you had more leverage, but in a game where you can swap out at anytime, people will expect you do what's considered "best", and why wouldn't you if it can be done instantly/effortlessly?
But sure, restricting yourself is fine if you only play with friends/people you know, and/or you don't care about getting kicked by randoms when they realize you're not going to play the way the mathematicians recommend.
I think you're taking it way too far personally
On normal and hell difficulty no one is going to care what abilities you are using so long as progress is being made. When and if you get to Nightmare and Inferno, or play hardcore, people are going to expect you to be using a build that works well. Why? Because their success, and their character's existence in hardcore, is dependent on you being able to perform.
If you go into Inferno using some random build that doesn't actually do anything - which, might I add, is not likely to happen in D3 due to the way the skills are built - then why should people tolerate that? I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure most other people intending to clear Nightmare and Inferno wouldn't.
In D2 on Hell you turned up in the right spec. If anyone got any idea that you WEREN'T in the right spec, you just got removed. You didn't have leverage at the top end, so I have no idea why you are claiming you did. The talent system - and the complexities involved with respecing - made it so that if you weren't in a spec that your group wanted, you were simply removed from the group. At the lower end, and just like in D3, any spec worked for anything.
It's no different to what happens in MMOs; turn up to an instance in the wrong spec, get told to respec or get removed.
The difference here is that there are MORE right specs to be used in various instances.
You don't have to believe me; you can just go and look at how the skills are built using the TCs on Diablo3.com.
All I get from you is that you want to be able to play how you want at all times, regardless of level of difficulty. You want your cake, and you want to eat it to. In reality... that would result in a system where by EVERYONE may as well have 1 skill that they use from start to finish, without any chance to make any decisions at any point because they'd all be superfluous anyway.
I think it's definitely true that if you're using the open beta from this weekend to judge character and skill speccing, you probably didn't get exposed to enough that would make you believe there was any real variety available. Hell, that's how I feel about the beta product I played, but I also realize that the majority of my skills and runes were emptied and unavailable, so it's a bit unreasonable to make any form of rational judgement regarding their skill system until I play an open and complete product.
Unfortunately for Blizzard, character customization is the reason I play RPG's. I'm not going to spend sixty dollars just to make a judgement call on their mechanics. A part of me really wishes that the beta included more than it did as far as leveling content is concerned, because while it was fun in a fleeting, pointless kind of way (people who know me realize how quickly I was bored with the weekend beta), there wasn't enough available to make me really determine that their design was what I wanted in another Diablo game.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
The biggest complaint I'm reading about the game is the skill system. I don't see how the arguments about the skill system not being complex enough can hold any water. Just looking at the Monk, you have 3 to 4 skills to choose from in each skill slot. Each skill has five different possible runes that affect the power in significantly-different ways. On top of that, you can choose three out of fourteen different passive skills.
Just in case my math is wrong, someone can double-check it.
(4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (14 x 13 x 12) = 58.968 billion
Oh, and the Monk has the fewest choices of skills.
Hmm, I think you got that formula wrong.
The following is just based on what you wrote. I didn't play D3, so I can't be sure if your values are correct.
- 3 to 4 skills
Ok, lets take the higher value : 4 skills
- Each skill has five different runes
So that makes 4 skills with 5 runes. That makes: 5^4 = 5 * 5 * 5 * 5
- On top of that you got 3 passive skills out of 14. Thats: 14! - (14-3)! = 14 * 13 * 12
All in all:
(5^4) * (14! - 11!) = 1.365.000
This is only true if you don't have actually more than 4 skills where you select your skills from. Or more than 5 runes to select from. Than it would be more.
Anyway, just bored at work, please continue your discussion.
Technically there are 6 skills. Left click, Right click and 1-4. Each with 5 runes or so.
Each class has 15 passives with the exception of the monk with 14 and the barbarian with 16. There are some really obvious non synergistic passives (example, Wizard has a all fire spells put an ignite dot on. If non of your other skills were fire this would do nothing) so if you want to calc it with less then 15 that is fine.
But the number you calc will be mostly irrelevent.
You can make some vastly different builds work such as melee wizard or melee Demon Hunter (rapid fire with a melee weapon is actually hilarious)
Skill tree systems generally have an illusion of choice. I cannot argue this will not have an illusion of choice but I can say that at the VERY worst it will be tied with the amount of choice in Diablo 2.
I like some of the choices such as for the Wizard mastery skill. Explosive blast (aoe physical attack 20 sec cool), Mirror Illusions (defensive/utility skill, 15 second cooldown) and Archon (changes all your other skills and buffed for short duration, cool 120 seconds) all sound like they will feel very different.
I look forward to seeing wizards using any of these abilities and depending on circumstance they all seem awesome. Explosive blast would be handy if you were using a element specializing passive and needed a non elemental nuke to deal with some high resistance/immun monsters. Mirror Illusions, particularily with the rune options, seems very versitile. Archon really depends on numbers. It gives you good passive defense for those 15 seconds. I cannot tell off the top of my head which of those runes I would want on any of those skills. The teleport on archon looks nice as does slow time. As does arcane destruction.
The problem with diablo 2 was that skills were dependant on other skills. A Blizzard sorc had to spend 80 points to max out the blizzard damage....which did not leave enough in other trees to max a skill and thus it was a sub par build because it would only do good ice damage which is why the Meteo Orb sorc was THE sorc build. Orb did good damage, had good utility, and only had one other synergy skill after unlocking the prereqs.
Can anyone here tell me the optimal build for any character in diablo 3. I find the choice between diamond skin (straight up damage absorbtion versus slow time (small attack and MS slow and extremely anti ranged attacks) vs teleport (ability to get out of a dangerous area quickly) an extremely interesting decision. Please show me where I could make such an interesting decision in Diablo 2.
I would also like to add that playstyle effects how the builds will work. A kiter plays differently from a nuker. How do you manage your secondary resource(s)? Cooldowns? etc.
I am looking forward to seeing the skills play out in appropriate difficulty.
Some can't seem to understand that 99% of those builds are actually valid where as in other games one cookie cutter is best build. It gets confusing I guess.
But how much difference is there between the builds? Does it make my offensive barbarian turn intoo a strictly defensive one? How much difference do the choices make, i think in the end a barbarian will allways play like a barbarian.
Dont get me wrong, i really love the rune system, and i would love to see MMO's that added such systems to every one of their spells. allowing people to have a meaningfull choice. But the way D3 addapted it, its in general just minor changes.
Actually yes your barb can go from extreme damage to extreme defense, you can make a speed barb, CC barb or a balance of all.
The choices are huge, go look at the skill tree and decide on what kind of build you want to play with. You'll have a hard time figuring out what is gonna be best for you.
But the real question is, can all of those successfully complete the content in almost the exact same manner? if there aren't really great variants in how you play the game based on these choices in the end they are all bascially the same.
And you have to be careful, because if these choices really do result in signfincantly different gameplay, odds are pretty good that one or two will be "better" (faster, more efficient, dies less) than another and it will be come the favored build.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'd normally agree with that, but with a game that involves playing with random people (unless you just happen to have a few friends that play at the exact same times and you only play with them), you're most likely going to run into people who won't group with you (or kick you) for not playing as efficiently as possible. In a game where respeccing isn't an instant swap (like D2), you had more leverage, but in a game where you can swap out at anytime, people will expect you do what's considered "best", and why wouldn't you if it can be done instantly/effortlessly?
But sure, restricting yourself is fine if you only play with friends/people you know, and/or you don't care about getting kicked by randoms when they realize you're not going to play the way the mathematicians recommend.
I think you're taking it way too far personally
On normal and hell difficulty no one is going to care what abilities you are using so long as progress is being made. When and if you get to Nightmare and Inferno, or play hardcore, people are going to expect you to be using a build that works well. Why? Because their success, and their character's existence in hardcore, is dependent on you being able to perform.
If you go into Inferno using some random build that doesn't actually do anything - which, might I add, is not likely to happen in D3 due to the way the skills are built - then why should people tolerate that? I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure most other people intending to clear Nightmare and Inferno wouldn't.
In D2 on Hell you turned up in the right spec. If anyone got any idea that you WEREN'T in the right spec, you just got removed. You didn't have leverage at the top end, so I have no idea why you are claiming you did. The talent system - and the complexities involved with respecing - made it so that if you weren't in a spec that your group wanted, you were simply removed from the group. At the lower end, and just like in D3, any spec worked for anything.
It's no different to what happens in MMOs; turn up to an instance in the wrong spec, get told to respec or get removed.
The difference here is that there are MORE right specs to be used in various instances.
You don't have to believe me; you can just go and look at how the skills are built using the TCs on Diablo3.com.
All I get from you is that you want to be able to play how you want at all times, regardless of level of difficulty. You want your cake, and you want to eat it to. In reality... that would result in a system where by EVERYONE may as well have 1 skill that they use from start to finish, without any chance to make any decisions at any point because they'd all be superfluous anyway.
Not at all, not sure why you think that.
Well, either I only joined groups that were the exception to the rule, or I had a build close enough to cookie cutter parameters to be considered acceptable, because I never had any problems in D2, regardless of the difficulty (I never played hardcore though, so I don't doubt how strict people are there). Even if anyone had said anything, at least I would have had the defense/leverage of, "well, it's a pain in the ass to respec, so give me a shot the way I am and see how it works out," With D3, there wouldn't be any good excuse for keeping the build you actually like using, because due to the ease of it, you will be expected to respec whenever necessary, and I really hate that. Again I ask, why even have builds at all? If you can't keep a certain kind of "build identity" to your character, what's even the point? Just like your last example, why even have any choice at all with a system like this? The game might as well just pick what's best for you depending on what you're doing since you're going to have to do that anyway.
Also, I'll believe the "MORE right specs" when I actually see them in practice. Things can sometimes play out differently on the field, especially in each respective situation (boss fights for example).
The biggest complaint I'm reading about the game is the skill system. I don't see how the arguments about the skill system not being complex enough can hold any water. Just looking at the Monk, you have 3 to 4 skills to choose from in each skill slot. Each skill has five different possible runes that affect the power in significantly-different ways. On top of that, you can choose three out of fourteen different passive skills.
Just in case my math is wrong, someone can double-check it.
(4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (3 x 5) x (4 x 5) x (14 x 13 x 12) = 58.968 billion
Oh, and the Monk has the fewest choices of skills.
I understand that many do not like the change of the skill system from the original Diablo. Let's face it though, point allocation was a legacy system that needed to be replaced. It made the skill system far more complex and less immersive when you have to deal with micro-numbers every time you level. On top of that, you still ended up with cookie-cutter builds.
I like the new skill system after playing the open beta over the weekend. It makes the game more accessible to those who don't want to spend days over-analyzing numbers instead of playing the game. It also means I can play around with various skills until I find a build that works for me.
But I can no longer irreversible screw up my character AND more than one end game build might be viable. This game franchise has really gone downhill. What is Blizzard thinking?
Don't give enough choices...people bitch. Too many choices...people still bitch. You can't please everyone and certainly can't please the vast minority.
My complaint with the skill system in D3 is that it doesn't feel like you're really building your character. I kind of like the more classical method of building up my character slowly by picking abilities and such that fit the play style I'm going for.
In Diablo 3 it feels more like a toolbox where new tools are arbitrarily put into your box, letting you switch tools in and out. But only between the tools the game decided you should have.
But other than the way you acquire the skills, I think the new skill system is a big improvement over the old one.
My complaint with the skill system in D3 is that it doesn't feel like you're really building your character. I kind of like the more classical method of building up my character slowly by picking abilities and such that fit the play style I'm going for.
In Diablo 3 it feels more like a toolbox where new tools are arbitrarily put into your box, letting you switch tools in and out. But only between the tools the game decided you should have.
But other than the way you acquire the skills, I think the new skill system is a big improvement over the old one.
I like this new approach. Each skill has some mechanics, instead of just a plain x% increase to y ability. I also like how you can customize abilities. Very cool compared to the old "put 10 points here because you have to max this skill" type set up.
Some can't seem to understand that 99% of those builds are actually valid where as in other games one cookie cutter is best build. It gets confusing I guess.
But how much difference is there between the builds? Does it make my offensive barbarian turn intoo a strictly defensive one? How much difference do the choices make, i think in the end a barbarian will allways play like a barbarian.
Dont get me wrong, i really love the rune system, and i would love to see MMO's that added such systems to every one of their spells. allowing people to have a meaningfull choice. But the way D3 addapted it, its in general just minor changes.
This is not ARPG, for that matter MMORPG typical with the most powerful skills being at max level. The maximum damage weapons are.
One thing I don’t think many understand here is that you get your main power building attacks early. These attacks are USEFUL all the way through the game. Everything is based on your weapon damage and ALL these skills are situational based on what you are going to face and/or what the group make up is.
Swapping out skills and runes is going to be the key factor in success of getting through hell and inferno. By the time you get there you best understand what each of the skill and rune combos mean and how they work and in what situation you would use them or you will find progression impossible.
You may need more single target skills and defense on really tough encounters and in other encounters were there are hords of monsters you may want a AOE skill but maybe you need elemental damage too or heals. When you're in a group you may want to run a different combination of skill and runes based on what classes are in that group and what the others in that group are using.
The combinations and premutations of this system is really unique.
OH and beating inferno is more about skill than random numbers.
if you look at PATH OF THE EXILE skill tree you will see it has a massive amount of choices , however it is quite difficult to change from one spec to another unlike D3 which is very easy to customise to your particular flavour of play style.
Im definately going to play D3 over PATH OF THE EXILE .
I wasn't aware that hack n slash type games required any complexity or combat strategy and thus who cares about 9 trillion builds. It's nice that there's complexity but what does it matter with this genre?
I have a question regarding all of these builds. Does D3 support a way to quickly switch from one set to another? ie. AOE build to tank build to single mob dps build? I've purposely avoided most info on the game so I can experience it fresh, but I'm curious how that functionality works.
if you look at PATH OF THE EXILE skill tree you will see it has a massive amount of choices , however it is quite difficult to change from one spec to another unlike D3 which is very easy to customise to your particular flavour of play style.
Im definately going to play D3 over PATH OF THE EXILE .
A lot of people like and prefer that. Choices should mean something. If you can copy and change any build again and again it will be less interesting. Typically if you want to try a new build you should level up a new character. Or at least do some quests that takes time and are difficult.
if you look at PATH OF THE EXILE skill tree you will see it has a massive amount of choices , however it is quite difficult to change from one spec to another unlike D3 which is very easy to customise to your particular flavour of play style.
Im definately going to play D3 over PATH OF THE EXILE .
A lot of people like and prefer that. Choices should mean something. If you can copy and change any build again and again it will be less interesting. Typically if you want to try a new build you should level up a new character. Or at least do some quests that takes time and are difficult.
Well about PoE, i know it's in beta but the skill tree... massive ammount of choices? Come on, 99% of those skills are +1Dex, +1Str etc.
I think Blizzard took an excellent path with Diablo 3. Sure, hardcore D2 players might not like it, as they feel they're not unique anymore, every nub can "fix" his character, you cannot actually screw up. But afterall D3 is a game, why should it be played with 5 browser windows open in the background, like D2 was? As a new D2 player, how many characters did someone screw up until they've "found" the "correct" build from a website?
And yeah, there's the 2-sided argument: 1. There will be one or two builds juuuust a little better/faster than the others, so there, we have cookie cutter and 2. If there's no "better" build, then your choices dont matter, you can play the game in any way, what is the point of having skills. Well, i have an answer for that. From what Blizzard says, Inferno is gonna be really really difficult. Having a character (or a group) exploring different skill choices in order to beat different encounters makes the game interesting. And i'm not talking about the big bosses, like in a MMO, those you get to learn how to beat, i'm talking about the random elites which seem very hard and very rewarding in terms of loot.
Think of the customisation not being only in terms of skills, but stats also. They showed things like melee sorc, tanking witchdoctor etc. Sure, it might not be the "best" build for that class but still, it's different, sort of unique, viable etc.
I have a question regarding all of these builds. Does D3 support a way to quickly switch from one set to another? ie. AOE build to tank build to single mob dps build? I've purposely avoided most info on the game so I can experience it fresh, but I'm curious how that functionality works.
No in game yet and it might never be, we have the option to quickly swap out skills but having to press just one button to switch out our entire skill set will make it too easy to swap out your skills mid flight and that is not what blizaard want players to do.
I have a question regarding all of these builds. Does D3 support a way to quickly switch from one set to another? ie. AOE build to tank build to single mob dps build? I've purposely avoided most info on the game so I can experience it fresh, but I'm curious how that functionality works.
No in game yet and it might never be, we have the option to quickly swap out skills but having to press just one button to switch out our entire skill set will make it too easy to swap out your skills mid flight and that is not what blizaard want players to do.
Also, from what i remember from the beta, when you hotswap one skill with another, the new skill has some sort of a cooldown until it activates (not 100% sure tho).
if you look at PATH OF THE EXILE skill tree you will see it has a massive amount of choices , however it is quite difficult to change from one spec to another unlike D3 which is very easy to customise to your particular flavour of play style.
Im definately going to play D3 over PATH OF THE EXILE .
A lot of people like and prefer that. Choices should mean something. If you can copy and change any build again and again it will be less interesting. Typically if you want to try a new build you should level up a new character. Or at least do some quests that takes time and are difficult.
Well about PoE, i know it's in beta but the skill tree... massive ammount of choices? Come on, 99% of those skills are +1Dex, +1Str etc.
I think Blizzard took an excellent path with Diablo 3. Sure, hardcore D2 players might not like it, as they feel they're not unique anymore, every nub can "fix" his character, you cannot actually screw up. But afterall D3 is a game, why should it be played with 5 browser windows open in the background, like D2 was? As a new D2 player, how many characters did someone screw up until they've "found" the "correct" build from a website?
And yeah, there's the 2-sided argument: 1. There will be one or two builds juuuust a little better/faster than the others, so there, we have cookie cutter and 2. If there's no "better" build, then your choices dont matter, you can play the game in any way, what is the point of having skills. Well, i have an answer for that. From what Blizzard says, Inferno is gonna be really really difficult. Having a character (or a group) exploring different skill choices in order to beat different encounters makes the game interesting. And i'm not talking about the big bosses, like in a MMO, those you get to learn how to beat, i'm talking about the random elites which seem very hard and very rewarding in terms of loot.
Think of the customisation not being only in terms of skills, but stats also. They showed things like melee sorc, tanking witchdoctor etc. Sure, it might not be the "best" build for that class but still, it's different, sort of unique, viable etc.
In a role playing game being unique is important. And in D2 I often used strange builds that was far from perfect but good enough. I think D3 is more action and less RP compared to D2.
In D3:
-Cool build! Wait a sec..I think I will try that myself....OK, ready.
In D2:
-Cool build! Maybe I will try that sometime when I level up a new character.
Typically the action gamer will prefer the D3 alternative.
I have a question regarding all of these builds. Does D3 support a way to quickly switch from one set to another? ie. AOE build to tank build to single mob dps build? I've purposely avoided most info on the game so I can experience it fresh, but I'm curious how that functionality works.
No in game yet and it might never be, we have the option to quickly swap out skills but having to press just one button to switch out our entire skill set will make it too easy to swap out your skills mid flight and that is not what blizaard want players to do.
If there is a long enough cool down it would not make any difference from that POV. It would only make it more user friendly.
In a role playing game being unique is important. And in D2 I often used strange builds that was far from perfect but good enough. I think D3 is more action and less RP compared to D2.
In D3:
-Cool build! Wait a sec..I think I will try that myself....OK, ready.
In D2:
-Cool build! Maybe I will try that sometime when I level up a new character.
Typically the action gamer will prefer the D3 alternative.
Well, it does not work exactly like that. A "cool build" in D3 involves stat points changes, it's not just "ok, ready". The massive stat points will come from gear and gems. To "swap" for a "cool build" will mean changing gear, regemming etc. The only things you can easily "change" are the skills. If you roll for example a melee sorc, you'll have to do some planning in terms of gear and gems, it's not gonna be done just from pushing a few buttons. I don't feel it's gonna be trivial to create a viable "non-ordinary" char (a tanking monk for example) which you can solo inferno with.
You can change skills instead of rerolling a char to see how a new build would "feel" - an excellent change if you ask me.
"Diablo II customisation: you get exactly as much STR as the armor that you're targeting to wear (usually around 120 or 220, depending on your aim), you get DEX till you reach 75% block, you take no energy at all, and then you put everything else in VIT. That's a shitty customisation system" - Jay Wilson
Comments
I'd normally agree with that, but with a game that involves playing with random people (unless you just happen to have a few friends that play at the exact same times and you only play with them), you're most likely going to run into people who won't group with you (or kick you) for not playing as efficiently as possible. In a game where respeccing isn't an instant swap (like D2), you had more leverage, but in a game where you can swap out at anytime, people will expect you do what's considered "best", and why wouldn't you if it can be done instantly/effortlessly?
But sure, restricting yourself is fine if you only play with friends/people you know, and/or you don't care about getting kicked by randoms when they realize you're not going to play the way the mathematicians recommend.
I think you're taking it way too far personally
On normal and hell difficulty no one is going to care what abilities you are using so long as progress is being made. When and if you get to Nightmare and Inferno, or play hardcore, people are going to expect you to be using a build that works well. Why? Because their success, and their character's existence in hardcore, is dependent on you being able to perform.
If you go into Inferno using some random build that doesn't actually do anything - which, might I add, is not likely to happen in D3 due to the way the skills are built - then why should people tolerate that? I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure most other people intending to clear Nightmare and Inferno wouldn't.
In D2 on Hell you turned up in the right spec. If anyone got any idea that you WEREN'T in the right spec, you just got removed. You didn't have leverage at the top end, so I have no idea why you are claiming you did. The talent system - and the complexities involved with respecing - made it so that if you weren't in a spec that your group wanted, you were simply removed from the group. At the lower end, and just like in D3, any spec worked for anything.
It's no different to what happens in MMOs; turn up to an instance in the wrong spec, get told to respec or get removed.
The difference here is that there are MORE right specs to be used in various instances.
You don't have to believe me; you can just go and look at how the skills are built using the TCs on Diablo3.com.
All I get from you is that you want to be able to play how you want at all times, regardless of level of difficulty. You want your cake, and you want to eat it to. In reality... that would result in a system where by EVERYONE may as well have 1 skill that they use from start to finish, without any chance to make any decisions at any point because they'd all be superfluous anyway.
I think it's definitely true that if you're using the open beta from this weekend to judge character and skill speccing, you probably didn't get exposed to enough that would make you believe there was any real variety available. Hell, that's how I feel about the beta product I played, but I also realize that the majority of my skills and runes were emptied and unavailable, so it's a bit unreasonable to make any form of rational judgement regarding their skill system until I play an open and complete product.
Unfortunately for Blizzard, character customization is the reason I play RPG's. I'm not going to spend sixty dollars just to make a judgement call on their mechanics. A part of me really wishes that the beta included more than it did as far as leveling content is concerned, because while it was fun in a fleeting, pointless kind of way (people who know me realize how quickly I was bored with the weekend beta), there wasn't enough available to make me really determine that their design was what I wanted in another Diablo game.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#aZXkSm!ahT!bYZYca
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor
Technically there are 6 skills. Left click, Right click and 1-4. Each with 5 runes or so.
Each class has 15 passives with the exception of the monk with 14 and the barbarian with 16. There are some really obvious non synergistic passives (example, Wizard has a all fire spells put an ignite dot on. If non of your other skills were fire this would do nothing) so if you want to calc it with less then 15 that is fine.
But the number you calc will be mostly irrelevent.
You can make some vastly different builds work such as melee wizard or melee Demon Hunter (rapid fire with a melee weapon is actually hilarious)
Skill tree systems generally have an illusion of choice. I cannot argue this will not have an illusion of choice but I can say that at the VERY worst it will be tied with the amount of choice in Diablo 2.
I like some of the choices such as for the Wizard mastery skill. Explosive blast (aoe physical attack 20 sec cool), Mirror Illusions (defensive/utility skill, 15 second cooldown) and Archon (changes all your other skills and buffed for short duration, cool 120 seconds) all sound like they will feel very different.
I look forward to seeing wizards using any of these abilities and depending on circumstance they all seem awesome. Explosive blast would be handy if you were using a element specializing passive and needed a non elemental nuke to deal with some high resistance/immun monsters. Mirror Illusions, particularily with the rune options, seems very versitile. Archon really depends on numbers. It gives you good passive defense for those 15 seconds. I cannot tell off the top of my head which of those runes I would want on any of those skills. The teleport on archon looks nice as does slow time. As does arcane destruction.
The problem with diablo 2 was that skills were dependant on other skills. A Blizzard sorc had to spend 80 points to max out the blizzard damage....which did not leave enough in other trees to max a skill and thus it was a sub par build because it would only do good ice damage which is why the Meteo Orb sorc was THE sorc build. Orb did good damage, had good utility, and only had one other synergy skill after unlocking the prereqs.
Can anyone here tell me the optimal build for any character in diablo 3. I find the choice between diamond skin (straight up damage absorbtion versus slow time (small attack and MS slow and extremely anti ranged attacks) vs teleport (ability to get out of a dangerous area quickly) an extremely interesting decision. Please show me where I could make such an interesting decision in Diablo 2.
I would also like to add that playstyle effects how the builds will work. A kiter plays differently from a nuker. How do you manage your secondary resource(s)? Cooldowns? etc.
I am looking forward to seeing the skills play out in appropriate difficulty.
But the real question is, can all of those successfully complete the content in almost the exact same manner? if there aren't really great variants in how you play the game based on these choices in the end they are all bascially the same.
And you have to be careful, because if these choices really do result in signfincantly different gameplay, odds are pretty good that one or two will be "better" (faster, more efficient, dies less) than another and it will be come the favored build.
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Not at all, not sure why you think that.
Well, either I only joined groups that were the exception to the rule, or I had a build close enough to cookie cutter parameters to be considered acceptable, because I never had any problems in D2, regardless of the difficulty (I never played hardcore though, so I don't doubt how strict people are there). Even if anyone had said anything, at least I would have had the defense/leverage of, "well, it's a pain in the ass to respec, so give me a shot the way I am and see how it works out," With D3, there wouldn't be any good excuse for keeping the build you actually like using, because due to the ease of it, you will be expected to respec whenever necessary, and I really hate that. Again I ask, why even have builds at all? If you can't keep a certain kind of "build identity" to your character, what's even the point? Just like your last example, why even have any choice at all with a system like this? The game might as well just pick what's best for you depending on what you're doing since you're going to have to do that anyway.
Also, I'll believe the "MORE right specs" when I actually see them in practice. Things can sometimes play out differently on the field, especially in each respective situation (boss fights for example).
This sounds like 200 hours of unique gameplay per class
But I can no longer irreversible screw up my character AND more than one end game build might be viable. This game franchise has really gone downhill. What is Blizzard thinking?
/sarcasm
Don't give enough choices...people bitch. Too many choices...people still bitch. You can't please everyone and certainly can't please the vast minority.
My complaint with the skill system in D3 is that it doesn't feel like you're really building your character. I kind of like the more classical method of building up my character slowly by picking abilities and such that fit the play style I'm going for.
In Diablo 3 it feels more like a toolbox where new tools are arbitrarily put into your box, letting you switch tools in and out. But only between the tools the game decided you should have.
But other than the way you acquire the skills, I think the new skill system is a big improvement over the old one.
I like this new approach. Each skill has some mechanics, instead of just a plain x% increase to y ability. I also like how you can customize abilities. Very cool compared to the old "put 10 points here because you have to max this skill" type set up.
This is not ARPG, for that matter MMORPG typical with the most powerful skills being at max level. The maximum damage weapons are.
One thing I don’t think many understand here is that you get your main power building attacks early. These attacks are USEFUL all the way through the game. Everything is based on your weapon damage and ALL these skills are situational based on what you are going to face and/or what the group make up is.
Swapping out skills and runes is going to be the key factor in success of getting through hell and inferno. By the time you get there you best understand what each of the skill and rune combos mean and how they work and in what situation you would use them or you will find progression impossible.
You may need more single target skills and defense on really tough encounters and in other encounters were there are hords of monsters you may want a AOE skill but maybe you need elemental damage too or heals. When you're in a group you may want to run a different combination of skill and runes based on what classes are in that group and what the others in that group are using.
The combinations and premutations of this system is really unique.
OH and beating inferno is more about skill than random numbers.
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if you look at PATH OF THE EXILE skill tree you will see it has a massive amount of choices , however it is quite difficult to change from one spec to another unlike D3 which is very easy to customise to your particular flavour of play style.
Im definately going to play D3 over PATH OF THE EXILE .
"it's not innovative!" followed by "I want the old skill/stat system. This new one sucks"
Can't have it both ways folks.
The skill/rune system is in fact very innovative. It is also complex and allows for a crapload of customization.
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lol 60 billion build possibilities? each class has 1 viable set of 6 buttons to mash, 4 classes, 24 builds very cookie cutter.
o and then the real money auction house thats clearly there to give blizzard its 30 pieces of silver for going judas on us.
A lot of people like and prefer that. Choices should mean something. If you can copy and change any build again and again it will be less interesting. Typically if you want to try a new build you should level up a new character. Or at least do some quests that takes time and are difficult.
Well about PoE, i know it's in beta but the skill tree... massive ammount of choices? Come on, 99% of those skills are +1Dex, +1Str etc.
I think Blizzard took an excellent path with Diablo 3. Sure, hardcore D2 players might not like it, as they feel they're not unique anymore, every nub can "fix" his character, you cannot actually screw up. But afterall D3 is a game, why should it be played with 5 browser windows open in the background, like D2 was? As a new D2 player, how many characters did someone screw up until they've "found" the "correct" build from a website?
And yeah, there's the 2-sided argument: 1. There will be one or two builds juuuust a little better/faster than the others, so there, we have cookie cutter and 2. If there's no "better" build, then your choices dont matter, you can play the game in any way, what is the point of having skills. Well, i have an answer for that. From what Blizzard says, Inferno is gonna be really really difficult. Having a character (or a group) exploring different skill choices in order to beat different encounters makes the game interesting. And i'm not talking about the big bosses, like in a MMO, those you get to learn how to beat, i'm talking about the random elites which seem very hard and very rewarding in terms of loot.
Think of the customisation not being only in terms of skills, but stats also. They showed things like melee sorc, tanking witchdoctor etc. Sure, it might not be the "best" build for that class but still, it's different, sort of unique, viable etc.
No in game yet and it might never be, we have the option to quickly swap out skills but having to press just one button to switch out our entire skill set will make it too easy to swap out your skills mid flight and that is not what blizaard want players to do.
Also, from what i remember from the beta, when you hotswap one skill with another, the new skill has some sort of a cooldown until it activates (not 100% sure tho).
In a role playing game being unique is important. And in D2 I often used strange builds that was far from perfect but good enough. I think D3 is more action and less RP compared to D2.
In D3:
-Cool build! Wait a sec..I think I will try that myself....OK, ready.
In D2:
-Cool build! Maybe I will try that sometime when I level up a new character.
Typically the action gamer will prefer the D3 alternative.
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If there is a long enough cool down it would not make any difference from that POV. It would only make it more user friendly.
Well, it does not work exactly like that. A "cool build" in D3 involves stat points changes, it's not just "ok, ready". The massive stat points will come from gear and gems. To "swap" for a "cool build" will mean changing gear, regemming etc. The only things you can easily "change" are the skills. If you roll for example a melee sorc, you'll have to do some planning in terms of gear and gems, it's not gonna be done just from pushing a few buttons. I don't feel it's gonna be trivial to create a viable "non-ordinary" char (a tanking monk for example) which you can solo inferno with.
You can change skills instead of rerolling a char to see how a new build would "feel" - an excellent change if you ask me.
"Diablo II customisation: you get exactly as much STR as the armor that you're targeting to wear (usually around 120 or 220, depending on your aim), you get DEX till you reach 75% block, you take no energy at all, and then you put everything else in VIT. That's a shitty customisation system" - Jay Wilson
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085 - excellent source of info in a D3 vs D2 thread on the US forums