You know if you summarize both this thread and the wvw thread you'll find something very interesting about the OP play style. Ive seen a few people expose it I wonder who else noticed it. Maybe not even his play style but the what the threads mean is very amusing. I voted no btw.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
You know if you summarize both this thread and the wvw thread you'll find something very interesting about the OP play style. Ive seen a few people expose it I wonder who else noticed it. Maybe not even his play style but the what the threads mean is very amusing. I voted no btw.
Pretty soon, cats like these will want a weekend in Vegas to come with there purchase or participation in a BETA. Hey, why not just throw in a couple vouchors to see Celine Dion while we are there too.
I'm fearing the worst right! Celine Dion fans trolling the thread!
Absolutely not. *if* you know how to play, especially know how to dance between playing defensively and offensively, you won't die. Period.
I wouldn't quite say THAT. I haven't seen ANYONE not die AT ALL. Seriously, c'mon now. Some fights are just a bitch and you're going to get downed. You may fight your way back up from a downed state and not die, but you're AT LEAST going to get downed sometimes. Six centaurs, for instance, when fighting alone.....you're goin' down. Sure...you might get back up, but that's not an easy fight. If you're actually playing the same game I'm playing....I don't believe that you've not died. (and probably gone down to a downed state more than once)
Dodging can't save your ass from some things.
By the way....I said NO to healers. They're not needed. You just have to accept that until you get accustomed to the dodge mechanic and how to play your profession, you're going to get knocked down some and maybe even die some. It's a game. It's supposed to have some challenge in it.
Even in the 10 FPS spammy death marches, I only die once (and get knocked down to 5% HP's but somehow live all the other times). And in smaller Events and Soloing, I almost never die.... maybe once an hour. (I die twice as often just farming HardMode WiK bounties in GW1).
Yes the difficulty in this game is quite a bit beyond the norm... but that just means people need to get better and they need to get used this new kind of playstyle (People who play FPS games, especially Left 4 Dead; have a HUGE leg up on that dynamic already and everyone else just needs to catch up to those people to get good at GW2)
I really just don't understand a lot of this. Theres no major learning curve here.. this is a good mixture of GW1 and traditional MMO combat. It isn't extremely tough to grasp.
You can be a healer if you want, with a number of the support types, you can mitigate damage well enough with enough defensive abilities, and using your self heal.
Just find yourself a class that has some healing abilities that you like.. just about every class has them, you just need to find them. Then you need to figure out how to use them properly, which isn't tough if you read what the abilities do.
I played WvWvW last night for about an hour on my necro and we were surging back and forth attcking Blue and Reds then having them come back at us.
I got hurt quite a few times down to 25% or so. But I think I only was downed once and didn't die. So no I don't think we need healers really (although technically I was healing people with my staff).
Sometimes in PvE though I have been insta-gibbed either by having things spawned right on top of me or just some mob putting out a crazy attack that I couldn't see any way of telling that is was coming. For the most part in PvE though if you are good you can solo a many veteran mobs without help and even the nasty veterns like the Oakhearts (immobolize then smash you) you can take down in a group of three with no healers.
So other than a few balance refinements its not necessary at all. Well it may be necessary for people who suck at moving and dodging, but you know healers don't really like healing people like that anyway.
There is a healer, the engineer. Find one, like the one I'm playing, that is specing his trait poitns into the healing "tree" and save the initial skill points to unlock Med Kit and Healing Turren and presto...you have a healer.
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AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
Originally posted by Neutor
There is a healer, the engineer. Find one, like the one I'm playing, that is specing his trait poitns into the healing "tree" and save the initial skill points to unlock Med Kit and Healing Turren and presto...you have a healer.
Absolutely not. *if* you know how to play, especially know how to dance between playing defensively and offensively, you won't die. Period.
I wouldn't quite say THAT. I haven't seen ANYONE not die AT ALL. Seriously, c'mon now. Some fights are just a bitch and you're going to get downed. You may fight your way back up from a downed state and not die, but you're AT LEAST going to get downed sometimes. Six centaurs, for instance, when fighting alone.....you're goin' down. Sure...you might get back up, but that's not an easy fight. If you're actually playing the same game I'm playing....I don't believe that you've not died. (and probably gone down to a downed state more than once)
Dodging can't save your ass from some things.
By the way....I said NO to healers. They're not needed. You just have to accept that until you get accustomed to the dodge mechanic and how to play your profession, you're going to get knocked down some and maybe even die some. It's a game. It's supposed to have some challenge in it.
I hope people do not get the wrong impression from the various posters on this site. Like its said here dodging is not the all in one solution.
A mesmer with a staff can kite very well. But in order to do so very well they need to use multiple illusions and possibly teleports. One staff illusion gives you essenitally another dodge(backward only) and pops a clone. In addition they can cripple.
Between a hard mob attacking clones (although seem to have little aggro), crippling them, using your Class abilities to avoid things, AND doding you can concievably get through a tough fight barely getting hit.
This is NOT true for a build where you have only have dodge with no enhancments. Generally every weapon set will give you some defensive abilities. A stealth get away, a block, a lunge/tele. Something. But unless you are doing a full kiting strategy with ALOT of support from class abilities you will get hit. Normally you want to use your abilities smartly to:
a) avoid the really nasty wind up attacks
b) mitigate damage in total
Example:
Me lvl 8 mesmer: Dual Sword mesmer; clone I can swap with, 2 second channeled attack that make me invuln during channel, and a block that triggers a clone.
VS
level 10 Golden Moa has a cone screech attack and normal attacks roughly once per second.
Start fight with clone. Clone does not grab aggro so bird runs at me. Bird usually start with screech attack does dazes. THIS is what I use my dodge for THEN I use my class abilities. I dodge the screech if I see the tell tale animation. Then as I come in and use my basic attack from behind him to apply vulnerability debuff. Bird turns to me I use my channled abiltiy. It attacks twice doing no damage. I then channel my block attack. It attacks once doing no damage. I now have two clones. I dodge away and let them attack for a second or two then detonate them. Bird runs with 5% health I finish him.
In this scenario which i did repeatedly last night to unlock a secondary focus (ie. I skimped on the Riposte part). I would come out of the fight fine. Sometimes I would mess up in which case the moa bird would hurt me alot and could be a fine edge.
If I depended SOLELY on dodge in this I would barely survive the fight and would have to pop my heal everytime.
Against multiple opponents this strat is not as good and I would have had to use the staff + kiting way of doing things. Mesmers seems pretty badass in PvE though.
I am a lifelong healer profession player myself. Every game in the past...forever, I have had a healer as either my main or on the 2nd seat alt. That being said, I see one thing nice about not having healers in this game. Ok, well maybe its not exactly nice, more like PAYBACK time. :O
I dont think I can count how many arrogant melee DPS players have biatched about not getting healed when they ran off on thier own and got eaten for it. Well, now they can heal themselves, and biatch to themselves about getting in over thier heads.
Another thing I can't count high enough for, is the number of absolutely worthless players out there who NEVER pay attention to what is going on around them. Pulling extra groups of mobs, hitting AOEs on mobs that no tank had aggro on first. And the healer having to dig in a save them, and the rest of the team, from thier own stupidity. Usually without a single thanks at the end of it all from the one person who made the mistake. Now...in GW2, they dont pay attention....they will be fighting to survive, and maybe saying thanks to the person left alive who comes by to revive them.
And while I am on the topic of the arrogant and those who dont pay attention. For once, in all these years, there wont be a healer standing behind you, covering up your mistakes so nobody but you and the healer know about how bad you are as a player. Now, your badness will shine like the afternoon sun. Everyone will know exactly what you do, how you do it, and the messes you make.
Ok, all done with my rant. Sorry about that, 8+ yrs of cleaning up after ungreatful, and just plain terrible players will get to you. And if you are a healer or a crowd control support type player, I'm sure you know exactly where I am coming from here.
Even in the 10 FPS spammy death marches, I only die once (and get knocked down to 5% HP's but somehow live all the other times). And in smaller Events and Soloing, I almost never die.... maybe once an hour. (I die twice as often just farming HardMode WiK bounties in GW1).
Yes the difficulty in this game is quite a bit beyond the norm... but that just means people need to get better and they need to get used this new kind of playstyle (People who play FPS games, especially Left 4 Dead; have a HUGE leg up on that dynamic already and everyone else just needs to catch up to those people to get good at GW2)
No to healers. This is cliche but... learn to play. This is such a refreshing change. Its not like dying has any real penalty anyways not is it really death when you can pull yourself back up and have all classes "rez" you.
There is a healer, the engineer. Find one, like the one I'm playing, that is specing his trait poitns into the healing "tree" and save the initial skill points to unlock Med Kit and Healing Turren and presto...you have a healer.
Same with the Guardian they have some crazy heals
Both of these and ele and necro can put out enough healing to be VERY useful to a good player.
BUT
In other games various healing classes can actually save the ass of very bad players who are doing nothing but taking damage at least for a little while. You will never be able to make the bads feel like they are playing well in GW2 the way you could in say Rift for example (just to take any of a number of games with very strong dedicated healing classes ).
If you notice GW2 does not have the tradiational get a flag runner and heal the living crap out of them gameplay in it. Because that gameplay sucks and is stupid.
I'm not going to avoid GW2 due to a lack of primary healer profession, but it's the role I've been playing and enjoying since support casting in UO. Really, I can understand why people think it's devolved into a glorified whack-a-mole, and there are great arguments against the dependencies of particular classes in group scenarios, but it's something I think they probably could have made work within the confines of their mechanics. Entirely necessary? I guess not. People like me would have liked to have the option, but I can repsect the choice from their design team.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
This is one of my gripes with GW2, tho I am not in beta and it is purely speculation. The many, many death and the lack of healers kinda sounds like a bit strenous over time.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
for those talking about Water Eles, Engis, or whatnot being your groups healers...give up. The game just does not work this way. Allow me to explain from a numbers perspective. Note these are made up numbers, but they give a fair idea of the dmg/heals ratio in the game.
1) The WoW/Standard currrent MMO healer/player paradigm.
-The mob hits a properly levelled and geared tank for 10,000 dmg
-Before the mob can do a decent amount more damage, the healer can drop a heal for 20,000, either in a large burst or maybe over the span of a few seconds.
-In essence, as long as mana holds out and no one does anything stupid, a healer can put out more hps than an enemy can DPS.
2) The GW2 pattern.
-We start off the same; the mob hits the warriorwho thinks he can tank for 10k.
-health pools are MUCH lower; this is downed or near down for the "tank"
-The water ele blows everything he had an does....1k? maybe?
-Warrior-san better get a few more heals from people, or better yet GTFO. or he is dead.
And that's the difference. Remember in vanilla WoW, how you could bandage heal yourself or others in raids as DPS? You had to judge when the right time to use that was. And there just wasn't enough heals to survive the big hits, so you had to learn to stay out of them.
Tanking in this game will be about who is managing the mob at that moment based on proximity and other factors.
Healing will be mostly self-only, helping others when you can, but don't expect to spam heals like a WoW priest. You can't. Period.
Wow, so much die and revive. Some attacks simply can't be avoided without being shut down.
a healing class would be nice. The AoE here is crazy.
I had asked this question in the game, and got lots of agreement .
what about you all?
Learn to get away from the WOW mindset.
Learn to back away to shift agro to someone else.
Learn to not stand in AOE red circles.
Learn to play a DIFFERENT MMO.
Hope that helps.
I actually played a "healer" on my elementalist. Used a staff, kept Water aligned and watched as my heals kept folks alive. With that set up, Elementalists have 4 heals available at the early levels. Your basic attack also heals those right up on your target. You also have a small ground targetted aoe heal on a semi-short cooldown, (STAND IN THE GEYSER PEOPLE!). Also, the 5th skill is a large ground targetted aoe heal, which is on a longer cooldown. Additionally, you can target heal with your healing slot heal.
In other words, there's healers....people just need to learn to try to benefit the group rather than themselves. I always gold medaled all of the events that I took place in both healer and dpsing.
I haven't read this whole thread so it's likely I'll repeat what someone else said, but I have to agree... Players all hitting their area affect heals around the same time because everyone is trying to be safe, can leave you vulnerable while everyone is now waiting for that skill cooldown to reset... A healer class with healing spells would be nice, but they (Anet) know what they are doing right?
Comments
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
No.
If you cave in to this whininess, then the next whine will be about "No one is able to mitigate damage properly! Give us a tank class!!"
Followed swiftly by "Everyone's damage is too similar! Make some classes dedicated damage dealers!!"
At that point, Guild Wars 2 loses any shred of originality it may posess.
No. Emphatically.
Havent played it. But im inclined to agree that they should not have healers.
If it was not in the companies vision, then i would really like to see a company strand by that vision and not cave to knee jerk customer reactions.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Pretty soon, cats like these will want a weekend in Vegas to come with there purchase or participation in a BETA. Hey, why not just throw in a couple vouchors to see Celine Dion while we are there too.
I'm fearing the worst right! Celine Dion fans trolling the thread!
I wouldn't quite say THAT. I haven't seen ANYONE not die AT ALL. Seriously, c'mon now. Some fights are just a bitch and you're going to get downed. You may fight your way back up from a downed state and not die, but you're AT LEAST going to get downed sometimes. Six centaurs, for instance, when fighting alone.....you're goin' down. Sure...you might get back up, but that's not an easy fight. If you're actually playing the same game I'm playing....I don't believe that you've not died. (and probably gone down to a downed state more than once)
Dodging can't save your ass from some things.
By the way....I said NO to healers. They're not needed. You just have to accept that until you get accustomed to the dodge mechanic and how to play your profession, you're going to get knocked down some and maybe even die some. It's a game. It's supposed to have some challenge in it.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I don't want to be "that guy".... but...
Learn to Play?
Even in the 10 FPS spammy death marches, I only die once (and get knocked down to 5% HP's but somehow live all the other times). And in smaller Events and Soloing, I almost never die.... maybe once an hour. (I die twice as often just farming HardMode WiK bounties in GW1).
Yes the difficulty in this game is quite a bit beyond the norm... but that just means people need to get better and they need to get used this new kind of playstyle (People who play FPS games, especially Left 4 Dead; have a HUGE leg up on that dynamic already and everyone else just needs to catch up to those people to get good at GW2)
I really just don't understand a lot of this. Theres no major learning curve here.. this is a good mixture of GW1 and traditional MMO combat. It isn't extremely tough to grasp.
You can be a healer if you want, with a number of the support types, you can mitigate damage well enough with enough defensive abilities, and using your self heal.
Just find yourself a class that has some healing abilities that you like.. just about every class has them, you just need to find them. Then you need to figure out how to use them properly, which isn't tough if you read what the abilities do.
I played WvWvW last night for about an hour on my necro and we were surging back and forth attcking Blue and Reds then having them come back at us.
I got hurt quite a few times down to 25% or so. But I think I only was downed once and didn't die. So no I don't think we need healers really (although technically I was healing people with my staff).
Sometimes in PvE though I have been insta-gibbed either by having things spawned right on top of me or just some mob putting out a crazy attack that I couldn't see any way of telling that is was coming. For the most part in PvE though if you are good you can solo a many veteran mobs without help and even the nasty veterns like the Oakhearts (immobolize then smash you) you can take down in a group of three with no healers.
So other than a few balance refinements its not necessary at all. Well it may be necessary for people who suck at moving and dodging, but you know healers don't really like healing people like that anyway.
Same with the Guardian they have some crazy heals
I hope people do not get the wrong impression from the various posters on this site. Like its said here dodging is not the all in one solution.
A mesmer with a staff can kite very well. But in order to do so very well they need to use multiple illusions and possibly teleports. One staff illusion gives you essenitally another dodge(backward only) and pops a clone. In addition they can cripple.
Between a hard mob attacking clones (although seem to have little aggro), crippling them, using your Class abilities to avoid things, AND doding you can concievably get through a tough fight barely getting hit.
This is NOT true for a build where you have only have dodge with no enhancments. Generally every weapon set will give you some defensive abilities. A stealth get away, a block, a lunge/tele. Something. But unless you are doing a full kiting strategy with ALOT of support from class abilities you will get hit. Normally you want to use your abilities smartly to:
a) avoid the really nasty wind up attacks
b) mitigate damage in total
Example:
Me lvl 8 mesmer: Dual Sword mesmer; clone I can swap with, 2 second channeled attack that make me invuln during channel, and a block that triggers a clone.
VS
level 10 Golden Moa has a cone screech attack and normal attacks roughly once per second.
Start fight with clone. Clone does not grab aggro so bird runs at me. Bird usually start with screech attack does dazes. THIS is what I use my dodge for THEN I use my class abilities. I dodge the screech if I see the tell tale animation. Then as I come in and use my basic attack from behind him to apply vulnerability debuff. Bird turns to me I use my channled abiltiy. It attacks twice doing no damage. I then channel my block attack. It attacks once doing no damage. I now have two clones. I dodge away and let them attack for a second or two then detonate them. Bird runs with 5% health I finish him.
In this scenario which i did repeatedly last night to unlock a secondary focus (ie. I skimped on the Riposte part). I would come out of the fight fine. Sometimes I would mess up in which case the moa bird would hurt me alot and could be a fine edge.
If I depended SOLELY on dodge in this I would barely survive the fight and would have to pop my heal everytime.
Against multiple opponents this strat is not as good and I would have had to use the staff + kiting way of doing things. Mesmers seems pretty badass in PvE though.
Learn to get away from the WOW mindset.
Learn to back away to shift agro to someone else.
Learn to not stand in AOE red circles.
Learn to play a DIFFERENT MMO.
Hope that helps.
"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"
---------------------------
"A good man can make you feel sexy,
strong and able to take on the whole world...
oh sorry...that's wine...wine does that..."
I am a lifelong healer profession player myself. Every game in the past...forever, I have had a healer as either my main or on the 2nd seat alt. That being said, I see one thing nice about not having healers in this game. Ok, well maybe its not exactly nice, more like PAYBACK time. :O
I dont think I can count how many arrogant melee DPS players have biatched about not getting healed when they ran off on thier own and got eaten for it. Well, now they can heal themselves, and biatch to themselves about getting in over thier heads.
Another thing I can't count high enough for, is the number of absolutely worthless players out there who NEVER pay attention to what is going on around them. Pulling extra groups of mobs, hitting AOEs on mobs that no tank had aggro on first. And the healer having to dig in a save them, and the rest of the team, from thier own stupidity. Usually without a single thanks at the end of it all from the one person who made the mistake. Now...in GW2, they dont pay attention....they will be fighting to survive, and maybe saying thanks to the person left alive who comes by to revive them.
And while I am on the topic of the arrogant and those who dont pay attention. For once, in all these years, there wont be a healer standing behind you, covering up your mistakes so nobody but you and the healer know about how bad you are as a player. Now, your badness will shine like the afternoon sun. Everyone will know exactly what you do, how you do it, and the messes you make.
Ok, all done with my rant. Sorry about that, 8+ yrs of cleaning up after ungreatful, and just plain terrible players will get to you. And if you are a healer or a crowd control support type player, I'm sure you know exactly where I am coming from here.
All I can think is the PCU referance
"Don't be that guy!"
NO...
LEARN 2 PLAY or seek another game if you die alot you dont play very well and its first day why do think you have to be expert in few hours?
Its good its hard and no ITS NOT so easy as you favorite WoW OP.
When you actually try the game you will find this is not the case at all in GW2
Both of these and ele and necro can put out enough healing to be VERY useful to a good player.
BUT
In other games various healing classes can actually save the ass of very bad players who are doing nothing but taking damage at least for a little while. You will never be able to make the bads feel like they are playing well in GW2 the way you could in say Rift for example (just to take any of a number of games with very strong dedicated healing classes ).
If you notice GW2 does not have the tradiational get a flag runner and heal the living crap out of them gameplay in it. Because that gameplay sucks and is stupid.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
for those talking about Water Eles, Engis, or whatnot being your groups healers...give up. The game just does not work this way. Allow me to explain from a numbers perspective. Note these are made up numbers, but they give a fair idea of the dmg/heals ratio in the game.
1) The WoW/Standard currrent MMO healer/player paradigm.
-The mob hits a properly levelled and geared tank for 10,000 dmg
-Before the mob can do a decent amount more damage, the healer can drop a heal for 20,000, either in a large burst or maybe over the span of a few seconds.
-In essence, as long as mana holds out and no one does anything stupid, a healer can put out more hps than an enemy can DPS.
2) The GW2 pattern.
-We start off the same; the mob hits the warriorwho thinks he can tank for 10k.
-health pools are MUCH lower; this is downed or near down for the "tank"
-The water ele blows everything he had an does....1k? maybe?
-Warrior-san better get a few more heals from people, or better yet GTFO. or he is dead.
And that's the difference. Remember in vanilla WoW, how you could bandage heal yourself or others in raids as DPS? You had to judge when the right time to use that was. And there just wasn't enough heals to survive the big hits, so you had to learn to stay out of them.
Tanking in this game will be about who is managing the mob at that moment based on proximity and other factors.
Healing will be mostly self-only, helping others when you can, but don't expect to spam heals like a WoW priest. You can't. Period.
I actually played a "healer" on my elementalist. Used a staff, kept Water aligned and watched as my heals kept folks alive. With that set up, Elementalists have 4 heals available at the early levels. Your basic attack also heals those right up on your target. You also have a small ground targetted aoe heal on a semi-short cooldown, (STAND IN THE GEYSER PEOPLE!). Also, the 5th skill is a large ground targetted aoe heal, which is on a longer cooldown. Additionally, you can target heal with your healing slot heal.
In other words, there's healers....people just need to learn to try to benefit the group rather than themselves. I always gold medaled all of the events that I took place in both healer and dpsing.