I agree with alot of other replies here, I seen absolutely nothing in that cash shop that was pay to win. I even bought gems with farmed gold so I could get more keys after wasting my beta gems. I kinda acually smiled inside when I opened the shop and looked at its contents, that being said the shop can always be updated with new and completely different items so I will hold some reserve to not be disappointed later down the road.
How is this pay to win? The only place it matters is PvE, there is no raiding or anything like that for PvE so actually geting to 80 quicker is kinda meaningless. In PvP everyone is boosted to 80 as soon as they enter. There is absolutely no advantage to being 80 first in this game that I can tell
So you're saying PVE is 100% fluff, and that there's no point to even playing anything other than PVP? That's a very shortsighted argument. PVE always matters, and as such so do XP boosters. Getting to 80 MUCH quicker than another person by burning xp-boosters could never be any less of a pay-to-win scheme just because you don't understand how it can be, or that it doesn't bother you.
Nope, PvE isn't "fluff" but there really isn't any competative NEED to reach max level faster. In fact with this game it is counter productive. There isn't a traditional "End Game" for PvE its exploring the world and enjoying time with your friends. By all means please explain to me how it can be a P2W situation in this game since I clearly don't understand at all.
[stuff about gems to gold]
Again, how does this help anyone? You can do and get anything in game that the store sells with the exception of cosmetic items and convenience items.
How exactly is buying gems with RL money and then converting said gems into in-game gold NOT helping anyone? You can buy armor, weapons, gear in general from the normal in-game currency market yes?
Armor, weapons and gear don't mean the same thing in this game as it does your traditional MMO. It isn't a gear grind. iIs allot more about skill than it is about your gear. I doubt you will see anyone waisting their gold on buying any of the above mentioned items. BTW, with my limited weekend experience it seems like the best gear, thus far, comes from the Karma vendors...which you purchase with Karma you get from doing DE's. Again, you are really reaching here...from my experience
As a matter of fact, most of the complaints you see about difficulty in this game is for the simple reason the people went into the game trying to play it as a tradition MMO...stand there and let your armor / weapons save you...that is a negative here...you really have to learn to play and MOVE! I comment on that because I was one of those people. When the beta first started I was like man what the hell this is to hard after dying every single event...after about 10 hours in and I learned to watch the mob for visual queues and actually work with my group it became much much easier.
See red.
If you don't want to buy the game then so be it but you are really reaching here with those assumptions based off of that video
I replied in kind.
So you're saying ALL dropped gear is crap and worthless. Why bother selling it on an open-market house to begin with then? I highly doubt that's how GW2 operates on launch.
If you watched the video you'll also see that you can buy a Karma Booster for an hour similar to the standard XP Booster. Meaning people DO in-fact have a competitive issue with the store when they can get karma faster for better gear faster.
Lastly, don't max level players have a wider variety of skills to choose from in WvWvW? I've read numerous times on youtube comments in WvWvW videos where people ask if their enemy had "all of their abilities slotted" from levels?
You must understand that an MMO can't be as "diverse and different" from a basic MMO that you're talking about. I HIGHLY doubt that exchanging Gems for Gold is a complete non-issue in terms of progress and gear. It doesn't matter how "different" a game is from mainstream versions. It really doesn't.....
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
If you HAVE to spend money on items to be competitive and have no other way of getting them in game, that's Pay to Win.
I saw nothing in the gem shop at all that gave any kind of tactical advantage. Not only that, all the xp boosts and shit drop in the world so you can' t even complain about those. The only thing in there that I hated to see was inventory and bank spaces. But hey, they gotta fuck you out of money somehow right? Blame capitalism.
So you're saying having a constant flow of XP boosters running in your buff tray because you spent $30 on a whole stack of them is similar to finding one or two in a "rare" chest every couple hours is on-par and similar?
You're also saying that exchanging gems for gold is 100% isn't an unfair advantage for the people with an expendable income?
REALLY?
Having used the xp boosts I can tell you that they arn't a big advantage, you get a few more xp off killing mobs, that's it. You could play an hour longer a day than your constant xp boost guy and probably stay on par with him.
Yes, exchanging gems for gold isn't an advantage because there is nothing you can buy for gold that you can't get or make yourself. Easily I may add.
So if someone wants to spend money instead of time, that's fine by me.
How is this pay to win? The only place it matters is PvE, there is no raiding or anything like that for PvE so actually geting to 80 quicker is kinda meaningless. In PvP everyone is boosted to 80 as soon as they enter. There is absolutely no advantage to being 80 first in this game that I can tell
So you're saying PVE is 100% fluff, and that there's no point to even playing anything other than PVP? That's a very shortsighted argument. PVE always matters, and as such so do XP boosters. Getting to 80 MUCH quicker than another person by burning xp-boosters could never be any less of a pay-to-win scheme just because you don't understand how it can be, or that it doesn't bother you.
Nope, PvE isn't "fluff" but there really isn't any competative NEED to reach max level faster. In fact with this game it is counter productive. There isn't a traditional "End Game" for PvE its exploring the world and enjoying time with your friends. By all means please explain to me how it can be a P2W situation in this game since I clearly don't understand at all.
[stuff about gems to gold]
Again, how does this help anyone? You can do and get anything in game that the store sells with the exception of cosmetic items and convenience items.
How exactly is buying gems with RL money and then converting said gems into in-game gold NOT helping anyone? You can buy armor, weapons, gear in general from the normal in-game currency market yes?
Armor, weapons and gear don't mean the same thing in this game as it does your traditional MMO. It isn't a gear grind. iIs allot more about skill than it is about your gear. I doubt you will see anyone waisting their gold on buying any of the above mentioned items. BTW, with my limited weekend experience it seems like the best gear, thus far, comes from the Karma vendors...which you purchase with Karma you get from doing DE's. Again, you are really reaching here...from my experience
As a matter of fact, most of the complaints you see about difficulty in this game is for the simple reason the people went into the game trying to play it as a tradition MMO...stand there and let your armor / weapons save you...that is a negative here...you really have to learn to play and MOVE! I comment on that because I was one of those people. When the beta first started I was like man what the hell this is to hard after dying every single event...after about 10 hours in and I learned to watch the mob for visual queues and actually work with my group it became much much easier.
See red.
If you don't want to buy the game then so be it but you are really reaching here with those assumptions based off of that video
I replied in kind.
So you're saying ALL dropped gear is crap and worthless. Why bother selling it on an open-market house to begin with then? I highly doubt that's how GW2 operates on launch.
If you watched the video you'll also see that you can buy a Karma Booster for an hour similar to the standard XP Booster. Meaning people DO in-fact have a competitive issue with the store when they can get karma faster for better gear faster.
Lastly, don't max level players have a wider variety of skills to choose from in WvWvW? I've read numerous times on youtube comments in WvWvW videos where people ask if their enemy had "all of their abilities slotted" from levels?
You must understand that an MMO can't be as "diverse and different" from a basic MMO that you're talking about. I HIGHLY doubt that exchanging Gems for Gold is a complete non-issue in terms of progress and gear. It doesn't matter how "different" a game is from mainstream versions. It really doesn't.....
It's good decent stuff that drop and that you can make but it doesn't compare to the karma stuff. If you play for an hour you can have all the gear you need for levels to come. That said, gear bonuses aren't all that powerful. I had gear from 6th level at 20 and was still pretty impressive if i must say so.
As for the Karma booster, there was no karma booster for the closed beta in the store. (they are testing items out). Still have no problem with it. It's a 10 percent boost to karma production which again, which means that a person can buy a sword 6 minutes before i can. And if i want, i can use gold to buy the karma booster myself. So where is my disadvantage. Does that 6 minute head start they have on buying that sword constitute as a signigicant advantage. They bought themselves a cigerrette break. Wow, they are so more powerful than you now.
Thing is, cash shops work great in a lot of games that aren't pay to win. PEople thorwing around words and don't know what they mean. Cash shop doesnt equal play to win no more than a gun equals killing. It's all about how its wielded.
Keys - These drop in game and are even given out as quest rewards. The chest they open only contain one tool (For harvesting or gathering lol), one buff like xp buff, karma buff, etc. and one potion that turns you into an animal.
So no, not pay to win.
XPBoost - ... Your boosted to level cap in PvP anyways but lets play along. XP Boosts can be gotten in game anyways. Not only that but you can trade gold for cash shop currency so.... again no pay to win.
Gems to Gold - Yep you can, but sadly this still isn't pay to win. Gold isn't whats going to get you the good stuff, Karma is. Will gold give you an edge in PvP? No, gold will not insure those supply caravans make it through. Will gold give you a gear/weapon edge? No, the better stuff is bought with Karma or the commendation coins or w/e they are called. So, where exactly is that gold giving you an advantage?
Sorry, GW2's shop isn't anywhere close to pay to win. Who knows maybe that will change in the future, but as for now you are simply incorrect.
The keys are pretty useless and drops in game as well.
I don't see how XP pots is pay to win, are you saying that "winning" is leveling up faster? I was pretty sure having fun and beating hard content was winning, not the time it takes you to level up. In fact I don't want XP pots, in EQ2 you got plenty for free (and could buy more for cash) but I never used any of them. To me you are leveling way too fast in modern MMOs and saying that and use XP pots at the same time would be incredible stupid.
As for buying gold that is true. However will you just get as much gold for the gems that players are willing to pay for it, and since almost all stuff you can get for gems looks rather useless to me I think that gem prices will be pretty low after the first few months. A few more character slots seems to be the only thing I want from the cashshop myself.
So you can buy some gold for cash without cheating (as many people who feel the need to buy gold do) but frankly would it be a lot worse if you could buy karma instead. Gold wont really matter that much since the gear is balanced anyways.
Real pay2win games sell raid and PvP gear that gives you a significant boost when you play. Those games aren't so common as many people seems to think. GW2 is worse than many P2P games but better than most F2P games (ifnot all of them).
It's good decent stuff that drop and that you can make but it doesn't compare to the karma stuff. If you play for an hour you can have all the gear you need for levels to come. That said, gear bonuses aren't all that powerful. I had gear from 6th level at 20 and was still pretty impressive if i must say so.
As for the Karma booster, there was no karma booster for the closed beta in the store. (they are testing items out). Still have no problem with it. It's a 10 percent boost to karma production which again, which means that a person can buy a sword 6 minutes before i can. And if i want, i can use gold to buy the karma booster myself. So where is my disadvantage. Does that 6 minute head start they have on buying that sword constitute as a signigicant advantage. They bought themselves a cigerrette break. Wow, they are so more powerful than you now.
Thing is, cash shops work great in a lot of games that aren't pay to win. PEople thorwing around words and don't know what they mean. Cash shop doesnt equal play to win no more than a gun equals killing. It's all about how its wielded.
Obviously for the most part all of the comments here have laid out the bottom line that they don't consider it an issue given GW2's "unique" system of play? I haven't played the game to counter this point as it may very well be true.
As such, I'll simply nod my head and drop the thread as ONE of the following two things have happened:
-Nothing in the store is actually PayToWin as it would be in a traditional MMO, but given GW2's specific playstyle it diminishes the "PayToWin" aspect to negligable levels.
-OR-
-Players whom don't exactly understand how GW2 will work after launch are defending the system because they feel GW2 shouldn't be attacked under any circumstances simply because they themselves enjoy the game, and feel I was somehow trolling them with this thread.
Again, one of the two situations has happened, but I simply don't have enough information to conclude on either of them. So I will simply apologize and go back to playing DAOC for the afternoon, good day !
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!
You seem to miss the point that you cannot convert gold to gems unless someone is conversely willing to pay for the gems with their own RL money and sell them to you for gold.
I can guarantee that this already happens in every single MMO out there right now, except from a dodgy 3rd party and not usually the developer. SoE games already allow trading of 'Station Cash' in game via gifting, which essentially allows you to trade in game cash for RL cash shop items with other players. Based on this, you could say that every single game out there where in-game money has any worth is basically pay to win since you can buy it via 3rd party sellers.
More importantly though, you seem to think that gold even matters in GW2. It is nearly worthless once you reach max level. Even the WvWvW stuff is so cheap youll never run out if you play the game normally. Because gold is worthless, the game cannot be pay to win through the gold for gems exchange.
By these standards every game is P2W bcause you have to pay a Sub fee every month to play.
-How exactly does that make standard Sub-Fee games each month P2W? That makes no sense.
I pay $15 a month to play the game and it allows me to make money by killing mobs, allows me to log off and get an XP bonus if I do it in a city/cantina, allows me to log in and do instances where i can get great gear.
-So you're saying you're paying a FLAT RATE fee that EVERYONE ELSE PAYS in order to stay on a level playing field? So you're saying you can pay an ADDITIONALY $15/month to get more of these benefits? No? Then that means they're standard features to the game, thus NOT making the game "PayToWin".
A sub = pay to play thus its pay to win and the ONLY games that are not pay to win are games that are 100% free to play with no cash shops at all. Standards, if you apply it to everything you find a major flaw in the logic being applied.
-No, actually a sub does NOT = "PayToWin" as the argument you presented is completely incorrect by PayToWin definition.
I don't think you understand how PayToWin works my friend. It's about spending more to get an advantage over another. You cannot do that in normal non-cash shop Sub games. What game are you paying $15/month for that is PayToWin?
No, pay to win is spending to get a COMPETITIVE edge over another. You are the one who doesn't understand how it works. So unless you were in a "Race to 80" with a group of players, EXP boosters aren't going to do jack squat. Besides, the boosters apparently only work for kills, not events. Considering that mobs didn't seem to give me all that much experience to begin with per kill, an extra 10-15 xp wasn't going to add up for much.
Its honestly like paying to get an XP booster in WoW, that only gives you extra xp for mob kills. The biggest chunks of experience you'll be getting is through events (which aren't hard to find at all), and the random daily and monthly achievements. Not to mention the story quests give hefty chunks of experience as well.
And you are months late on the gem to gold thing bub. Its been known for a long while now, just like how the cash shop was known about since pretty much the games announcement. Your other mistake is trying to compare this to STO. Its easy for gold-sellers to do their work in a F2P title, where oh I don't know, its free to make an account. ArenaNet has done a good job of keeping sellers in check in the first GW title on the other hand, which is helped by requiring that initial cost.
Also...
"I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!"
This is a major logical fail. How is one supposed to turn gems "back into gold" if they have to buy the gems from someone who bought them with real money? What you are suggesting is an impossibility. If I can't sell the gems I bought with real money to someone with gold, how is anyone going to get gems to sell back as gold?
How is this pay to win? The only place it matters is PvE, there is no raiding or anything like that for PvE so actually geting to 80 quicker is kinda meaningless. In PvP everyone is boosted to 80 as soon as they enter. There is absolutely no advantage to being 80 first in this game that I can tell
So you're saying PVE is 100% fluff, and that there's no point to even playing anything other than PVP? That's a very shortsighted argument. PVE always matters, and as such so do XP boosters. Getting to 80 MUCH quicker than another person by burning xp-boosters could never be any less of a pay-to-win scheme just because you don't understand how it can be, or that it doesn't bother you.
Nope, PvE isn't "fluff" but there really isn't any competative NEED to reach max level faster. In fact with this game it is counter productive. There isn't a traditional "End Game" for PvE its exploring the world and enjoying time with your friends. By all means please explain to me how it can be a P2W situation in this game since I clearly don't understand at all.
[stuff about gems to gold]
Again, how does this help anyone? You can do and get anything in game that the store sells with the exception of cosmetic items and convenience items.
How exactly is buying gems with RL money and then converting said gems into in-game gold NOT helping anyone? You can buy armor, weapons, gear in general from the normal in-game currency market yes?
Armor, weapons and gear don't mean the same thing in this game as it does your traditional MMO. It isn't a gear grind. iIs allot more about skill than it is about your gear. I doubt you will see anyone waisting their gold on buying any of the above mentioned items. BTW, with my limited weekend experience it seems like the best gear, thus far, comes from the Karma vendors...which you purchase with Karma you get from doing DE's. Again, you are really reaching here...from my experience
As a matter of fact, most of the complaints you see about difficulty in this game is for the simple reason the people went into the game trying to play it as a tradition MMO...stand there and let your armor / weapons save you...that is a negative here...you really have to learn to play and MOVE! I comment on that because I was one of those people. When the beta first started I was like man what the hell this is to hard after dying every single event...after about 10 hours in and I learned to watch the mob for visual queues and actually work with my group it became much much easier.
See red.
If you don't want to buy the game then so be it but you are really reaching here with those assumptions based off of that video
I replied in kind.
So you're saying ALL dropped gear is crap and worthless. Why bother selling it on an open-market house to begin with then? I highly doubt that's how GW2 operates on launch.
Last post in this thread because you obviously already have your mind made up. I did not say they were worthless, I said they aren't as meaningful as in other games. I did not find a single item through 20 levels that I said "WoW holy crap I must have this item for x to make y stronger".
If you watched the video you'll also see that you can buy a Karma Booster for an hour similar to the standard XP Booster. Meaning people DO in-fact have a competitive issue with the store when they can get karma faster for better gear faster.
Ok great, so either you buy the experience boost which gets you to hight levels with crapy armor gear or you buy the karma boost which gets you better armor gear but you can't do the level yet. Do you see where I'm going here? There really isn't an advantage to it at all!!!
Lastly, don't max level players have a wider variety of skills to choose from in WvWvW? I've read numerous times on youtube comments in WvWvW videos where people ask if their enemy had "all of their abilities slotted" from levels?
You get skill points per level, yes, so technically that does give you more skills to use at max level...but you are still thinking about it incorrectly. you can only have 5 active skills per weapon...which is learned from using the weapon nothing that you unlock per level and then you get 4 1 healing and 3 utility slots that you can use at any one time. So even if you had all of your talents unlocked you still couldn't use them all...At level 20 I had saved up my skill points to buy the highest skill (7) talents I had available. Again not an advantage!
You must understand that an MMO can't be as "diverse and different" from a basic MMO that you're talking about. I HIGHLY doubt that exchanging Gems for Gold is a complete non-issue in terms of progress and gear. It doesn't matter how "different" a game is from mainstream versions. It really doesn't.....
Without playing it you are making a large assumption here. Anyway, enjoy whichever game you choose but you should really do more research on this game; or better yet try it for yourself.
Playing one day to level 7 gave me 320 karma so while I don't know if that ammounts to much but it seemed pretty easy to get. Anet seem to be following the old TR philosophy in which they drop players into an aggressive prey-rich environment and just watch it rain cash or in this case, karma. As far a s XP boosts go, frankly this is the first game where I will say that xp boosting will disadvantage you in that you will spend less time getting to know your build and less time immersed in the game world, which would be a crying shame is this one appears to be an actual world.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy. ______________________________ "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
So you're saying ALL dropped gear is crap and worthless. Why bother selling it on an open-market house to begin with then? I highly doubt that's how GW2 operates on launch.
If you watched the video you'll also see that you can buy a Karma Booster for an hour similar to the standard XP Booster. Meaning people DO in-fact have a competitive issue with the store when they can get karma faster for better gear faster.
Lastly, don't max level players have a wider variety of skills to choose from in WvWvW? I've read numerous times on youtube comments in WvWvW videos where people ask if their enemy had "all of their abilities slotted" from levels?
You must understand that an MMO can't be as "diverse and different" from a basic MMO that you're talking about. I HIGHLY doubt that exchanging Gems for Gold is a complete non-issue in terms of progress and gear. It doesn't matter how "different" a game is from mainstream versions. It really doesn't.....
IF you PLAYED the game you'd also see that it DROPS in world! Meaning poeple DO NOT infact have a competitive issue with the store. If they did they wouldn't be mostly debating this and disagreeing with you (funny, people who played the game try to convince someone who watched only 1 video and he's still ignoring everything being said. ) ....
Getting karma faster doesn't really mean anything since every armor peace is not that expencive, if you'll do your events casually you'll have more than enough for your armor. They're not selling it in gem shop, what they're selling on gem shop is a pirate custome and transmutation stones which allow you to change the looks and the stats of 2 armors and transfer them from 1 to another to keep your stats or looks...
If you're level 80 in PvE then you have everything you unlocked while leveling available to you at WvWvW nothing more, nothing less... Only place where everything is unlocked is PVP arenas...
Oh but it does... And I don't know how you value your money, but buying 1000 gems for 9$ and then exchanging it for around 80 silver (which can't buy me anyhting) is just, well... Not worthy... The situation will probably change but I think the gems->gold transactions won't be worth the money.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
It's good decent stuff that drop and that you can make but it doesn't compare to the karma stuff. If you play for an hour you can have all the gear you need for levels to come. That said, gear bonuses aren't all that powerful. I had gear from 6th level at 20 and was still pretty impressive if i must say so.
As for the Karma booster, there was no karma booster for the closed beta in the store. (they are testing items out). Still have no problem with it. It's a 10 percent boost to karma production which again, which means that a person can buy a sword 6 minutes before i can. And if i want, i can use gold to buy the karma booster myself. So where is my disadvantage. Does that 6 minute head start they have on buying that sword constitute as a signigicant advantage. They bought themselves a cigerrette break. Wow, they are so more powerful than you now.
Thing is, cash shops work great in a lot of games that aren't pay to win. PEople thorwing around words and don't know what they mean. Cash shop doesnt equal play to win no more than a gun equals killing. It's all about how its wielded.
Obviously for the most part all of the comments here have laid out the bottom line that they don't consider it an issue given GW2's "unique" system of play? I haven't played the game to counter this point as it may very well be true.
As such, I'll simply nod my head and drop the thread as ONE of the following two things have happened:
-Nothing in the store is actually PayToWin as it would be in a traditional MMO, but given GW2's specific playstyle it diminishes the "PayToWin" aspect to negligable levels.
-OR-
-Players whom don't exactly understand how GW2 will work after launch are defending the system because they feel GW2 shouldn't be attacked under any circumstances simply because they themselves enjoy the game, and feel I was somehow trolling them with this thread.
Again, one of the two situations has happened, but I simply don't have enough information to conclude on either of them. So I will simply apologize and go back to playing DAOC for the afternoon, good day !
The problem is there are people that don't understand how the system works at all because they have yet to actually play the game. They then come to the forums and complain about pay to win and quickly get refuted. Don't feel bad, your not the first nor will you be the last.
Once you've actually played you learn fast that it is definitely not pay to win.
I don't think you understand how PayToWin works my friend. It's about spending more to get an advantage over another. You cannot do that in normal non-cash shop Sub games. What game are you paying $15/month for that is PayToWin?
Logic, apply the same LOGIC being used to EVERYTHING.
In WoW, I can BUY a mount for real life money and sell it IN GAME FOR GOLD. I just paid to WIN according to the OP.
There hasnt been a sub game ever created that didnt have gold spammers that I could pay real life money to, in order to P2W...can I now call ALL games P2W?
The argument being used is that if I use real life money to get an XP boost, I am somehow WINNING the game...by getting to end game faster than those who will get there a DAY LATER and be the SAME POWER.
Oh noes, someone paid $5 to get to max level in 2 days. I am so LOSING the game by taking 3 days to get there without spending money!
BTW, I pointed out how you are wrong by not being able to do that in sub games. You chose to log out in a city/cantina to get an XP bonus and someone else doesnt...you just got an advantage over him.
BTW, real weak use of the word advantage...you have no power over another player by having an XP boost...damage boost, yes...XP boost, no.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
If you think its P2W it really is. For you... Everyone must decide if they think advantage items are P2W or not. My point is: Its very difficult to find two individuals that can agree if some CS item is P2W or not. There is no definition.
Its like trying to decide if meat tastes better than fish. Or if heavy metal is better than pop.
Of course people should understand and respect that. Some other persons P2W nightmare could be no problem at all for you. And you perhaps cant understand why he/she is complaining. But people are different. Some believe in principles that others think are silly. Its all very subjective.
Something to note: The average player can level one level every one and a half hours, I did not do any story quest during this beta and played for 32 hours before hitting 32, I did not use any boosts of any kind.
During this beta I managed to reach level 34 during the final hour, as well as Glory rank 1(1500, which isn't a whole lot), and 80 in tailoring.
If you feel that this game requires to much time to accomplish anything, then maybe you need to reevaluate your general efficiency. Just too see if it was possible we even had someone level to 32 with crafting alone.
EVEN MORE NOTES: Crafting does not reset your level if you choose to switch craft, for example if you switch from 80 tailoring to cooking or weaponsmithing, you will still retain your 80 tailoring should you choose to work on it at a later time. The only downside to this is the cost of switching costs more and more as your crafting level increases.
I understand where people are coming from, to put it simply, the game is not so much pay to win, as it is Pay to Help Me Not Suck At Economics. No amount of gold will ever keep you alive on the battlefield.
Anyone who DOES NOT have a problem with this, shall never speak of gold buying again.
I mean in WoW, what is the diffrence from buying 300,000g on ebay and this gem thing?
Hmmmm???
People on this site are always against gold sellers....unless its their gaming god GW2, who'm shall not be able to commit sin!...now bow down.
Most people actually just hate the in-game spam from those buyers / sellers. GW2 gets rid of that by putting it into an automated marketplace.
The best appearance gear in GW2 will be drops from hard dungeons. You will not be able to purchase these with gold as you have to be there on opening the chest.
What will gold buy you? Some crafted gear?
Pay to win arguement is stupid. Its the least P2W game out there according to the P2W crowds logic. Since all other games put far more value in gold / in game currencies.
End-all be-all pfft, whatever. This is the same as EVE Plex and it is simply trading time for money. If you have cash you buy gems, if you have time you farm gold. Those people get together and then trade. Instead of me spending time to get gold I simply "hire" a kid to get it for me. Not significantly different than hiring a kid to mow my lawn. I save time, he gets spending money. Especially when I can pay that kid $12 an hour to mow and I can bill $145 an hour for database consulting services. The other upside is that this provides a relatively fair, free market way to allow people with no cash to still have a way to access the goodies in the cash shop thus making it less of a hard pay to win barrier.
Exp Boosts:
All this does is shift the time frame on when I person reaches level cap. You don't win by getting to level cap first. You win by doing well once you get there. When you get there is immaterial.
Keys
This is the only one that even slightly concerns me. Yes the keys drop but how often do they drop? If they are super rare this could be a problem. I don't think they are that rare though. I got one by lvl 10 and it will probably pick up as levels go up. Further, people can buy them with in game gold by first using the gold for gems feature and then going to the cash shop. My only suggestion would be to make the keys also available from a vendor in game. gold or karma or both, doesn't matter. That would solve the problem completely. Even so, not a big deal.
Dear TC, I'd like to thank you for sharing your concerns. The Guild Wars cash shop contents is a very original topic that had been completely overlooked by everyone until you decided to open our eyes. Rest assured that your arguments have nothing in common with those old beaten to death hater excuses we've heard a thousand times and a thousand times again. There's a lot of food for thought in your well-penned OP. It feels incredibly exciting to participate in this discussion. Thank you again, TC, keep up the good work!
/facepalm
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
GW2 can not be pay2win and post history... I'm not a GW2 fanboi. Fact remains that most power you gain in GW2 is absolutely meaningless because the game will adjust your stats anyways to make it fair for everyone. So you'd be wasting your time trying to pay2win as much as you waste time trying to get strong by playing the game itself.
Comments
So you're saying ALL dropped gear is crap and worthless. Why bother selling it on an open-market house to begin with then? I highly doubt that's how GW2 operates on launch.
If you watched the video you'll also see that you can buy a Karma Booster for an hour similar to the standard XP Booster. Meaning people DO in-fact have a competitive issue with the store when they can get karma faster for better gear faster.
Lastly, don't max level players have a wider variety of skills to choose from in WvWvW? I've read numerous times on youtube comments in WvWvW videos where people ask if their enemy had "all of their abilities slotted" from levels?
You must understand that an MMO can't be as "diverse and different" from a basic MMO that you're talking about. I HIGHLY doubt that exchanging Gems for Gold is a complete non-issue in terms of progress and gear. It doesn't matter how "different" a game is from mainstream versions. It really doesn't.....
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Having used the xp boosts I can tell you that they arn't a big advantage, you get a few more xp off killing mobs, that's it. You could play an hour longer a day than your constant xp boost guy and probably stay on par with him.
Yes, exchanging gems for gold isn't an advantage because there is nothing you can buy for gold that you can't get or make yourself. Easily I may add.
So if someone wants to spend money instead of time, that's fine by me.
It's good decent stuff that drop and that you can make but it doesn't compare to the karma stuff. If you play for an hour you can have all the gear you need for levels to come. That said, gear bonuses aren't all that powerful. I had gear from 6th level at 20 and was still pretty impressive if i must say so.
As for the Karma booster, there was no karma booster for the closed beta in the store. (they are testing items out). Still have no problem with it. It's a 10 percent boost to karma production which again, which means that a person can buy a sword 6 minutes before i can. And if i want, i can use gold to buy the karma booster myself. So where is my disadvantage. Does that 6 minute head start they have on buying that sword constitute as a signigicant advantage. They bought themselves a cigerrette break. Wow, they are so more powerful than you now.
Thing is, cash shops work great in a lot of games that aren't pay to win. PEople thorwing around words and don't know what they mean. Cash shop doesnt equal play to win no more than a gun equals killing. It's all about how its wielded.
Poor OP
Keys - These drop in game and are even given out as quest rewards. The chest they open only contain one tool (For harvesting or gathering lol), one buff like xp buff, karma buff, etc. and one potion that turns you into an animal.
So no, not pay to win.
XPBoost - ... Your boosted to level cap in PvP anyways but lets play along. XP Boosts can be gotten in game anyways. Not only that but you can trade gold for cash shop currency so.... again no pay to win.
Gems to Gold - Yep you can, but sadly this still isn't pay to win. Gold isn't whats going to get you the good stuff, Karma is. Will gold give you an edge in PvP? No, gold will not insure those supply caravans make it through. Will gold give you a gear/weapon edge? No, the better stuff is bought with Karma or the commendation coins or w/e they are called. So, where exactly is that gold giving you an advantage?
Sorry, GW2's shop isn't anywhere close to pay to win. Who knows maybe that will change in the future, but as for now you are simply incorrect.
The keys are pretty useless and drops in game as well.
I don't see how XP pots is pay to win, are you saying that "winning" is leveling up faster? I was pretty sure having fun and beating hard content was winning, not the time it takes you to level up. In fact I don't want XP pots, in EQ2 you got plenty for free (and could buy more for cash) but I never used any of them. To me you are leveling way too fast in modern MMOs and saying that and use XP pots at the same time would be incredible stupid.
As for buying gold that is true. However will you just get as much gold for the gems that players are willing to pay for it, and since almost all stuff you can get for gems looks rather useless to me I think that gem prices will be pretty low after the first few months. A few more character slots seems to be the only thing I want from the cashshop myself.
So you can buy some gold for cash without cheating (as many people who feel the need to buy gold do) but frankly would it be a lot worse if you could buy karma instead. Gold wont really matter that much since the gear is balanced anyways.
Real pay2win games sell raid and PvP gear that gives you a significant boost when you play. Those games aren't so common as many people seems to think. GW2 is worse than many P2P games but better than most F2P games (ifnot all of them).
Obviously for the most part all of the comments here have laid out the bottom line that they don't consider it an issue given GW2's "unique" system of play? I haven't played the game to counter this point as it may very well be true.
As such, I'll simply nod my head and drop the thread as ONE of the following two things have happened:
-Nothing in the store is actually PayToWin as it would be in a traditional MMO, but given GW2's specific playstyle it diminishes the "PayToWin" aspect to negligable levels.
-OR-
-Players whom don't exactly understand how GW2 will work after launch are defending the system because they feel GW2 shouldn't be attacked under any circumstances simply because they themselves enjoy the game, and feel I was somehow trolling them with this thread.
Again, one of the two situations has happened, but I simply don't have enough information to conclude on either of them. So I will simply apologize and go back to playing DAOC for the afternoon, good day
!
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
You seem to miss the point that you cannot convert gold to gems unless someone is conversely willing to pay for the gems with their own RL money and sell them to you for gold.
I can guarantee that this already happens in every single MMO out there right now, except from a dodgy 3rd party and not usually the developer. SoE games already allow trading of 'Station Cash' in game via gifting, which essentially allows you to trade in game cash for RL cash shop items with other players. Based on this, you could say that every single game out there where in-game money has any worth is basically pay to win since you can buy it via 3rd party sellers.
More importantly though, you seem to think that gold even matters in GW2. It is nearly worthless once you reach max level. Even the WvWvW stuff is so cheap youll never run out if you play the game normally. Because gold is worthless, the game cannot be pay to win through the gold for gems exchange.
No, pay to win is spending to get a COMPETITIVE edge over another. You are the one who doesn't understand how it works. So unless you were in a "Race to 80" with a group of players, EXP boosters aren't going to do jack squat. Besides, the boosters apparently only work for kills, not events. Considering that mobs didn't seem to give me all that much experience to begin with per kill, an extra 10-15 xp wasn't going to add up for much.
Its honestly like paying to get an XP booster in WoW, that only gives you extra xp for mob kills. The biggest chunks of experience you'll be getting is through events (which aren't hard to find at all), and the random daily and monthly achievements. Not to mention the story quests give hefty chunks of experience as well.
And you are months late on the gem to gold thing bub. Its been known for a long while now, just like how the cash shop was known about since pretty much the games announcement. Your other mistake is trying to compare this to STO. Its easy for gold-sellers to do their work in a F2P title, where oh I don't know, its free to make an account. ArenaNet has done a good job of keeping sellers in check in the first GW title on the other hand, which is helped by requiring that initial cost.
Also...
"I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!"
This is a major logical fail. How is one supposed to turn gems "back into gold" if they have to buy the gems from someone who bought them with real money? What you are suggesting is an impossibility. If I can't sell the gems I bought with real money to someone with gold, how is anyone going to get gems to sell back as gold?
Last post in this thread because you obviously already have your mind made up. I did not say they were worthless, I said they aren't as meaningful as in other games. I did not find a single item through 20 levels that I said "WoW holy crap I must have this item for x to make y stronger".
Ok great, so either you buy the experience boost which gets you to hight levels with crapy armor gear or you buy the karma boost which gets you better armor gear but you can't do the level yet. Do you see where I'm going here? There really isn't an advantage to it at all!!!
You get skill points per level, yes, so technically that does give you more skills to use at max level...but you are still thinking about it incorrectly. you can only have 5 active skills per weapon...which is learned from using the weapon nothing that you unlock per level and then you get 4 1 healing and 3 utility slots that you can use at any one time. So even if you had all of your talents unlocked you still couldn't use them all...At level 20 I had saved up my skill points to buy the highest skill (7) talents I had available. Again not an advantage!
Without playing it you are making a large assumption here. Anyway, enjoy whichever game you choose but you should really do more research on this game; or better yet try it for yourself.
Playing one day to level 7 gave me 320 karma so while I don't know if that ammounts to much but it seemed pretty easy to get. Anet seem to be following the old TR philosophy in which they drop players into an aggressive prey-rich environment and just watch it rain cash or in this case, karma. As far a s XP boosts go, frankly this is the first game where I will say that xp boosting will disadvantage you in that you will spend less time getting to know your build and less time immersed in the game world, which would be a crying shame is this one appears to be an actual world.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
IF you PLAYED the game you'd also see that it DROPS in world! Meaning poeple DO NOT infact have a competitive issue with the store. If they did they wouldn't be mostly debating this and disagreeing with you (funny, people who played the game try to convince someone who watched only 1 video and he's still ignoring everything being said.
) ....
Getting karma faster doesn't really mean anything since every armor peace is not that expencive, if you'll do your events casually you'll have more than enough for your armor. They're not selling it in gem shop, what they're selling on gem shop is a pirate custome and transmutation stones which allow you to change the looks and the stats of 2 armors and transfer them from 1 to another to keep your stats or looks...
If you're level 80 in PvE then you have everything you unlocked while leveling available to you at WvWvW nothing more, nothing less... Only place where everything is unlocked is PVP arenas...
Oh but it does... And I don't know how you value your money, but buying 1000 gems for 9$ and then exchanging it for around 80 silver (which can't buy me anyhting) is just, well... Not worthy... The situation will probably change but I think the gems->gold transactions won't be worth the money.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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The problem is there are people that don't understand how the system works at all because they have yet to actually play the game. They then come to the forums and complain about pay to win and quickly get refuted. Don't feel bad, your not the first nor will you be the last.
Once you've actually played you learn fast that it is definitely not pay to win.
Logic, apply the same LOGIC being used to EVERYTHING.
In WoW, I can BUY a mount for real life money and sell it IN GAME FOR GOLD. I just paid to WIN according to the OP.
There hasnt been a sub game ever created that didnt have gold spammers that I could pay real life money to, in order to P2W...can I now call ALL games P2W?
The argument being used is that if I use real life money to get an XP boost, I am somehow WINNING the game...by getting to end game faster than those who will get there a DAY LATER and be the SAME POWER.
Oh noes, someone paid $5 to get to max level in 2 days. I am so LOSING the game by taking 3 days to get there without spending money!
BTW, I pointed out how you are wrong by not being able to do that in sub games. You chose to log out in a city/cantina to get an XP bonus and someone else doesnt...you just got an advantage over him.
BTW, real weak use of the word advantage...you have no power over another player by having an XP boost...damage boost, yes...XP boost, no.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
All I have to say is this:
Anyone who DOES NOT have a problem with this, shall never speak of gold buying again.
I mean in WoW, what is the diffrence from buying 300,000g on ebay and this gem thing?
Hmmmm???
People on this site are always against gold sellers....unless its their gaming god GW2, who'm shall not be able to commit sin!...now bow down.
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C'mon people why are your replying to this? Let the thread sink out of the front page and forget about it.
I give you 6 / 10 OP. People here are just too easy.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If you think its P2W it really is. For you... Everyone must decide if they think advantage items are P2W or not. My point is: Its very difficult to find two individuals that can agree if some CS item is P2W or not. There is no definition.
Its like trying to decide if meat tastes better than fish. Or if heavy metal is better than pop.
Of course people should understand and respect that. Some other persons P2W nightmare could be no problem at all for you. And you perhaps cant understand why he/she is complaining. But people are different. Some believe in principles that others think are silly. Its all very subjective.
Something to note: The average player can level one level every one and a half hours, I did not do any story quest during this beta and played for 32 hours before hitting 32, I did not use any boosts of any kind.
During this beta I managed to reach level 34 during the final hour, as well as Glory rank 1(1500, which isn't a whole lot), and 80 in tailoring.
If you feel that this game requires to much time to accomplish anything, then maybe you need to reevaluate your general efficiency. Just too see if it was possible we even had someone level to 32 with crafting alone.
EVEN MORE NOTES: Crafting does not reset your level if you choose to switch craft, for example if you switch from 80 tailoring to cooking or weaponsmithing, you will still retain your 80 tailoring should you choose to work on it at a later time. The only downside to this is the cost of switching costs more and more as your crafting level increases.
I understand where people are coming from, to put it simply, the game is not so much pay to win, as it is Pay to Help Me Not Suck At Economics. No amount of gold will ever keep you alive on the battlefield.
Most people actually just hate the in-game spam from those buyers / sellers. GW2 gets rid of that by putting it into an automated marketplace.
The best appearance gear in GW2 will be drops from hard dungeons. You will not be able to purchase these with gold as you have to be there on opening the chest.
What will gold buy you? Some crafted gear?
Pay to win arguement is stupid. Its the least P2W game out there according to the P2W crowds logic. Since all other games put far more value in gold / in game currencies.
Guild Wars 2 average reaction to beta, cash shop, plush Charr, novels...
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/In reverse order.
Gems for Gold:
End-all be-all pfft, whatever. This is the same as EVE Plex and it is simply trading time for money. If you have cash you buy gems, if you have time you farm gold. Those people get together and then trade. Instead of me spending time to get gold I simply "hire" a kid to get it for me. Not significantly different than hiring a kid to mow my lawn. I save time, he gets spending money. Especially when I can pay that kid $12 an hour to mow and I can bill $145 an hour for database consulting services. The other upside is that this provides a relatively fair, free market way to allow people with no cash to still have a way to access the goodies in the cash shop thus making it less of a hard pay to win barrier.
Exp Boosts:
All this does is shift the time frame on when I person reaches level cap. You don't win by getting to level cap first. You win by doing well once you get there. When you get there is immaterial.
Keys
This is the only one that even slightly concerns me. Yes the keys drop but how often do they drop? If they are super rare this could be a problem. I don't think they are that rare though. I got one by lvl 10 and it will probably pick up as levels go up. Further, people can buy them with in game gold by first using the gold for gems feature and then going to the cash shop. My only suggestion would be to make the keys also available from a vendor in game. gold or karma or both, doesn't matter. That would solve the problem completely. Even so, not a big deal.
All die, so die well.
Dear TC, I'd like to thank you for sharing your concerns. The Guild Wars cash shop contents is a very original topic that had been completely overlooked by everyone until you decided to open our eyes. Rest assured that your arguments have nothing in common with those old beaten to death hater excuses we've heard a thousand times and a thousand times again. There's a lot of food for thought in your well-penned OP. It feels incredibly exciting to participate in this discussion. Thank you again, TC, keep up the good work!
/facepalm
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).