Originally posted by Svarcanum swor, war, rift and aoc did not fail because of the gear treadmill
It wasn't the main cause but it didn't help. For many people, especially for those who aren't teenagers anymore and have jobs, families and other obligations, mandatory gear grind is an annoying feature at best.
A game is supposed to be a hobby, an entertainment. When you have to raid every week, it becomes a job. And since no game is perfect mandatory grind inevitably emphasizes frustration causes by other issues.
If playing a game for a couple hours a day gets you nowhere (and in most MMOs it's exactly this way) the game is poorly designed.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I played UO from 98 - around 04 on/off. There was no gear progression in that game. Sounds like Guild Wars 2 is the perfect fit for my kind .
I'm curious when this Pokket chick played UO seeing she mentioned she played it for 7 years. She of all people shouldn't have an issue with the rewards.
I finally got around to reading Pokket's review this morning...and I'm slightly annoyed. Multiple reasons.
1) She comes across like the stereotypical "gamer girl" that anyone with half a braincell knows most gamer girls are nothing like. With all respect to her, I wonder if she's really like that, or if it's the persona she adopts to get the reader's attention.
2) She's griping about money drops, and COMPLETELY ignoring the loads of karma and influence she's earning, which are the REAL currency of the game.
3) She griped about repair crews reocvering doors too fast even with seige hitting them, yet A) I see little use of seige in those videos and FFS, send a few sapper teams over the walls or something. find ways to screw with them. Or better yet, hit another camp.
4) The only reason melee were "useless" was because her team wasn't keepingt he walls occupied enough. What teh SHOULD be doing with their range is discuraging people from attacking from the walls, then let melee smack the door. And if defenders hit groundside to screw with you, then you send your melee in to deal with them while range switches to the door. Mind you, I will admit I'm seeing that seige mechanics are a little TOO real; that is, as long as the defenders don't run out of supply, they have a MAJOR advantage over offense.
Which leads me to wonder how much supply generation comes from inside the keep, and if there's ways to cut the keep off from supply. And if her team was doing that.
I choose Guild Wars because there is no grind for gear threadmill, no progression, no special achievements/rewards, no freaking VIRTUAL goods from which I be proud and stand afk in Lion's Arch so people can inspect me and disscusing "OMG, THIS DUDE IS FKIN OP"!!! Please, you have: Wow, Rift, SWTOR, TERA and 1000000000000000 other MMO games with special rewards for special players (read: nolife kids) with special needs. Thanks, but I waited Guild Wars 2 to have fun, not to grind some special gear/rewards which will take months (example, Wow players should know this: 2 months of farming Firelands - didn't get shield from Baleroc for my main tank; 4+ months of Dragon Soul - no 2h axe from Yor'sahj), NO THANKS!!! I still rather to have fun and enjoy game, then be a someone special just to show to some 12y old kid that I'm better than him!!! No matter if I get my level to 80, done all DEs, every heart, every dungeon, everything explored and get bored - I can take a break for a while until next GW2 expansion is out and log meanwhile just to chat with guildies and repeat some events, but doing raids repeat, repeat, repeat for next 5 months just to get 1 item dropped (and pray that someone will not have better roll than me), again, no thanks!
You had 3 years since 1st info about GW2, you know what is comming, please, don't try to change game as it is in this state. I don't need another "Wow clone". If you don't like it, don't bitch about it, as I said, you have 10000000000 MMORPG to fullfill your needs.
I could really care about gear, apart from weapons, in GW2. I don't want a game where I grind to get the best gear to be the best character. I did that in WoW. That is what I find refreshing about GW2 is there isn't the hype of great gear in order to play the game.
I played UO from 98 - around 04 on/off. There was no gear progression in that game. Sounds like Guild Wars 2 is the perfect fit for my kind .
I'm curious when this Pokket chick played UO seeing she mentioned she played it for 7 years. She of all people shouldn't have an issue with the rewards.
I think it seems to be the "in" thing with some gamers to advertise that they've played UO, whether it's true or not. Like it's suppose to add validity to their point of view.
Anyway, you're absolutely right, a true fan of UO would have no issues with lack of rewards or gear treadmill.
I played UO from 98 - around 04 on/off. There was no gear progression in that game. Sounds like Guild Wars 2 is the perfect fit for my kind .
I'm curious when this Pokket chick played UO seeing she mentioned she played it for 7 years. She of all people shouldn't have an issue with the rewards.
I think it seems to be the "in" thing with some gamers to advertise that they've played UO, whether it's true or not. Like it's suppose to add validity to their point of view.
Anyway, you're absolutely right, a true fan of UO would have no issues with lack of rewards or gear treadmill.
What always amuses me about people whipping out "gamer cred" is the inevitable truth of it.
What I always hear was "I played X and it was awesome 50 million years ago"
Yeah, you played it. And you stopped. Likely for good reason. You stopped liking the game, and it was probably because of a gameplay issue more than a social one.
I finally got around to reading Pokket's review this morning...and I'm slightly annoyed. Multiple reasons.
1) She comes across like the stereotypical "gamer girl" that anyone with half a braincell knows most gamer girls are nothing like. With all respect to her, I wonder if she's really like that, or if it's the persona she adopts to get the reader's attention.
2) She's griping about money drops, and COMPLETELY ignoring the loads of karma and influence she's earning, which are the REAL currency of the game.
3) She griped about repair crews reocvering doors too fast even with seige hitting them, yet A) I see little use of seige in those videos and FFS, send a few sapper teams over the walls or something. find ways to screw with them. Or better yet, hit another camp.
4) The only reason melee were "useless" was because her team wasn't keepingt he walls occupied enough. What teh SHOULD be doing with their range is discuraging people from attacking from the walls, then let melee smack the door. And if defenders hit groundside to screw with you, then you send your melee in to deal with them while range switches to the door. Mind you, I will admit I'm seeing that seige mechanics are a little TOO real; that is, as long as the defenders don't run out of supply, they have a MAJOR advantage over offense.
Which leads me to wonder how much supply generation comes from inside the keep, and if there's ways to cut the keep off from supply. And if her team was doing that.
Supply to a fortress or keep indeed does matter. Players can haul Supply 10 at a time from a resource camp they own, which they can use directly for some defense purposes, (mainly building defensive seige weapons, like cannons and oil), but some of the keep defenses require supply directly from the keep's supply depot. The supply depot does not replenish itself, but rather is supplied by Dolyak caravans that travel from resource camps the Fort owner controls with in proximity to the fortress.
To cut off their supply for reinforcing and rebuilding doors and walls, or other upgrades, an enemy needs to disrupt the flow of Supply, either by capturing the resource camps, or by intercepting and killing the supply caravans!
So, not only were Pokket and crew not making proper use of offensive seige engines, but they were oblivious to the greater strategy required to take a fortress or keep.
In short, just another case of someone who needs to Learn 2 Play grumbling about a game because of newb mistakes.
I mean, most people seemed to have no clue, as there is a learning curve and I fully expect it to take a few weeks after the game goes live for people to really begin to get how to play WvW and the community will continue to refine strategies well beyond that.
However, back to Pokket, as others have pointed out, if you are going to post a professional review, at least do your research so you don't come off as ignorant to the workings of the game you've reviewed. Nothing worse than to have most of your flaws for a game actually end up being flaws in your understanding of the game!
If I were her, I'd try to brush up on the game and give it a real go next BWE, with the goal of corrected her game play mistakes and with an open mind as to how the game might feel once you start to "get" how to play it.
I agree that I need to know the names of the people I've "marked for death". In every game I've played I have people that I mark to hunt when ever I'm out and I make certain I carry a high alert for them. Example would be Devilshugo in the abyss from Aion when I use to play. :-)
I hope they change that aspect, it does make things more personal.
What always amuses me about people whipping out "gamer cred" is the inevitable truth of it.
What I always hear was "I played X and it was awesome 50 million years ago"
Yeah, you played it. And you stopped. Likely for good reason. You stopped liking the game, and it was probably because of a gameplay issue more than a social one.
^ This. I really enjoyed those older... but not anymore.
I'm in the camp that feels I need to be building something while playing an online game, whether its social rep, higher scores, better character, etc. etc.
Fun factor works for awhile, but eventually the game's fun will not = getting drunk at a bar fun.
maybe it is because I started playing MMORPG's with UO where there was no Gear Grind, and the rewards were of a much better nature than simply collecting virtual material things, which compells me to disagree with the OP.
For me the Reward is the Sheer Fun from the Battles and Struggle, Server Pride, and maybe even some Political Intreague if Sides do go in to Diplomacy to gank vs a third.
I do not play to collect Items...I play to have fun with my friends in the adventures we engage together. And the Adventures are Fun because of the Decisions and Actions we take not because there is a piece of Cheese waiting for us at the end.
I am maybe from a non-reward oriented Generation of players, but that is why GW2 really appeals to me, and that is why its WvWvW will be active and fun too compared to others (coughs WAR)...because it will be driven by people who are participating for the right reasons...to have fun.
All the materialistic reward driven players will be casuals anyways, and if they do not want to join in...thier loss, there is enough old schoolers to Drive WvWvW that will be playing GW2.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Well, I agree with OP and Pokket when it comes to structured PvP.
To sum it up: sPvP has NO REWARDS AT ALL that would be interesting for a PvE / mixed player.
This is a big mistake imo. Not having sPvP rewards doesn't improve the game in any way. I don't get it...
Actually the biggest "WTF" to me in that video was the way PvP was handled in the matches. Pretty much agree with everything she said there. Surprised no one else has commented on it.
The rest seemed minor although I thought she made some good points. Not sure I agree about the melee comments she made though.
Christ, some of you get so fucking defensive though. Gonna have a coronary if you don't watch it once this game goes live.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Thread is way TLDR... this may have been said before... hmm there's a deep universal truth in there...
I always enjoy Pokket's video reviews because she comes accross as a true MMO fan... only a true fan would include video footage of her pirate and a bunch of other giddy players doing some synchronized jumping while prone on the ground. I enjoyed that.
I also WvW'd with an elemetalist so I can relate to every thing she said. I have to say though that meleeing on the door or using a battering ram was something the groups I was with handled better than hers I guess. It certainly didn't make me think that it was a useless pursuit. We simply coordinated AOEing the boiling oil area constantly to prevent anyone from being up there... then melee on the door works...just a thought.
I tend to agree with her on the issue of meager PVP rewards. You should come out at least even after gear repairs and we don't--that needs tweaking. But I don't know why the OP in this thread used that comment as his launching pad for his therories of what went wrong with early DAOC before realm points.
I was in early DAOC and I believe that realm points and other individual rewards were in fact the beginning of the end. Once you start down the slippery slope of rewarding PvP with either items or abilities that buff you, you've just created a gear (or ability....similar concept) grind PVP. Gear grind creates an unfriendly and unwelcoming environment where new players need not apply because they'll never catch-up and will always be at a disadvantage. It also favors the no-life grinder who can spend 100+ hours per week getting way ahead of the curb so that he/she can dominate and feel superior... often despite lesser ability.
This is the same reason why in games with full PVP servers some people will do whatever they need to do so they can be the ganker and not the gankee. Tera's continuation of open beta characters and early release for pre-purchases are pretty well requirements for PVP servers. If you started on release day, you were already at a disadvantage.
GW2 is going out of its way to prevent that sort of unwelcoming PVP situation from happening. They're deliberately going in the opposite direction and I give huge kudos to them, for understanding the problem and addressing it in the many ways that they have. Even something like the controversial "no-name" policy is done in an attempt to attract those with no previous PVP experience into a harrasment-free fun system that they may just enjoy.
Personally, as a hard-core PVPer from way back, I will miss not knowing who that particularly skilfull archer from the other server is so I can make it my business to get him... but I can live with it becuase it's being done for the right reasons.
As far as scenario PVP goes... I'll take Pokket's word for it being WOWish and not innovative... personally I could care less since I intensely dislike e-sport PvP. If you enjoy that sort of thing, by all means go for it and I'll try not to be too obvious about thinking less of you for it
Anyone who has been MMOing for a while, especially if you were there at the beginning, will have noticed a deterioration of the behavior that is tolerated in MMO PvP... the phrase "if you don't like it play in a PvE server" is used to justify every imaginable type of asshattery and harrasment. People gank lowbees because they can do it without consequence and some peole do in fact enjoy annoying you constantly... don't have to go an further than these forums to see evidence of that.
So GW2... no mob tagging or resource hogging in PVE... no PVP ganking in PVE.... no chatting with the enemy in PVP.... no names on those PVP enemies.... no gear or abilty advantage to those who got there first... yup, it's being done deliberately and I love it. About time developers recognized the unfriendly cesspool MMOs have become and did something good and creative about it.
Will some people leave because of this? Sure, and good riddance. I'd rather spend my game time with those who stay.
Speaking of TLDR... this post got longer than I thought it would
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's a fair point. Carrots on sticks do keep some people playing. I think many people ended up treating GW like a single-play game, and when the campaign was done, so were they. But for many people, PvP and titles and skill hunting were decent carrots.
But that isn't what drives me, and I think many people who are following GW2 feel the same way. I've played hundreds of hours of PvP in Halo games, and you never really get anything for all that. If the game is fun and the action compelling, I think many people will enjoy it. There are people who want a progression grind, and more power to them, but there are plenty of games out there that provide that. We don't really need another. But do we really know what all carrots there might be? Probably not. I am sure titles will keep some people interested, as will skill points, for a time. But those only last so long? There does seem to be a distinct lack of long-term carrots. But if they want it that way, maybe just don't want players who feel the need to chase carrots. Remember the origin of the metaphor. The horse chases the carrot, and the carriage moves more quickly, but the horse doesn't get anything out of it. Only the person holding the carrot out does.
Beyond that, we don't really know how this will play out at "end game," once most all the players from release are max level and running dungeons and events or PvPing or whatever. We don't know how that will work long-term, because nothing has provided a system that works in this way, including DAoC. A good example here is the names. In DAoC, that was key because of the competitive community being built, where you knew them and could think about what that guy you fought last week might do. In GW2, that won't be an issue, at least not for a very long time, should server rivalries get going, but the names of specific people you fight don't matter so much because you're not fighting the same poeple all the time. They are an ever-changeing faceless enemy. I am not sure if that's a good change or a bad one, but in the context of that change, having names doesn't matter one way or the other.
In that light, we can look at some of these changes and wonder how they might affect the logevity of the game. How much will gear matter? How much will specific stats matter for different builds? How difficult will it be to get a good level 80 set of gear for what your build is?
How will DEs play out long-term? How will they chain and cycle through? Will they become repetitive and we will do them by rote? Will encounters become a zergfest when everyone knows what to do and doesn't need to communicate? Or will they become zergfests just because we don't need to communicate because it's just not that hard in the first place? Will they make the world feel alive, or just become another thing that you do, rinse, and repeat of time? What about dungeons?
How will these things affect the game? We don't really know. I expect they have thought these things through and have come up with solutions, but really, we can't yet know how this will affect the community and the game itself as time wears on.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Comments
A game is supposed to be a hobby, an entertainment. When you have to raid every week, it becomes a job. And since no game is perfect mandatory grind inevitably emphasizes frustration causes by other issues.
If playing a game for a couple hours a day gets you nowhere (and in most MMOs it's exactly this way) the game is poorly designed.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I played UO from 98 - around 04 on/off. There was no gear progression in that game. Sounds like Guild Wars 2 is the perfect fit for my kind
.
I'm curious when this Pokket chick played UO seeing she mentioned she played it for 7 years. She of all people shouldn't have an issue with the rewards.
I finally got around to reading Pokket's review this morning...and I'm slightly annoyed. Multiple reasons.
1) She comes across like the stereotypical "gamer girl" that anyone with half a braincell knows most gamer girls are nothing like. With all respect to her, I wonder if she's really like that, or if it's the persona she adopts to get the reader's attention.
2) She's griping about money drops, and COMPLETELY ignoring the loads of karma and influence she's earning, which are the REAL currency of the game.
3) She griped about repair crews reocvering doors too fast even with seige hitting them, yet A) I see little use of seige in those videos and
FFS, send a few sapper teams over the walls or something. find ways to screw with them. Or better yet, hit another camp.
4) The only reason melee were "useless" was because her team wasn't keepingt he walls occupied enough. What teh SHOULD be doing with their range is discuraging people from attacking from the walls, then let melee smack the door. And if defenders hit groundside to screw with you, then you send your melee in to deal with them while range switches to the door. Mind you, I will admit I'm seeing that seige mechanics are a little TOO real; that is, as long as the defenders don't run out of supply, they have a MAJOR advantage over offense.
Which leads me to wonder how much supply generation comes from inside the keep, and if there's ways to cut the keep off from supply. And if her team was doing that.
I choose Guild Wars because there is no grind for gear threadmill, no progression, no special achievements/rewards, no freaking VIRTUAL goods from which I be proud and stand afk in Lion's Arch so people can inspect me and disscusing "OMG, THIS DUDE IS FKIN OP"!!! Please, you have: Wow, Rift, SWTOR, TERA and 1000000000000000 other MMO games with special rewards for special players (read: nolife kids) with special needs. Thanks, but I waited Guild Wars 2 to have fun, not to grind some special gear/rewards which will take months (example, Wow players should know this: 2 months of farming Firelands - didn't get shield from Baleroc for my main tank; 4+ months of Dragon Soul - no 2h axe from Yor'sahj), NO THANKS!!! I still rather to have fun and enjoy game, then be a someone special just to show to some 12y old kid that I'm better than him!!! No matter if I get my level to 80, done all DEs, every heart, every dungeon, everything explored and get bored - I can take a break for a while until next GW2 expansion is out and log meanwhile just to chat with guildies and repeat some events, but doing raids repeat, repeat, repeat for next 5 months just to get 1 item dropped (and pray that someone will not have better roll than me), again, no thanks!
You had 3 years since 1st info about GW2, you know what is comming, please, don't try to change game as it is in this state. I don't need another "Wow clone". If you don't like it, don't bitch about it, as I said, you have 10000000000 MMORPG to fullfill your needs.
I could really care about gear, apart from weapons, in GW2. I don't want a game where I grind to get the best gear to be the best character. I did that in WoW. That is what I find refreshing about GW2 is there isn't the hype of great gear in order to play the game.
I think it seems to be the "in" thing with some gamers to advertise that they've played UO, whether it's true or not. Like it's suppose to add validity to their point of view.
Anyway, you're absolutely right, a true fan of UO would have no issues with lack of rewards or gear treadmill.
What always amuses me about people whipping out "gamer cred" is the inevitable truth of it.
What I always hear was "I played X and it was awesome 50 million years ago"
Yeah, you played it. And you stopped. Likely for good reason. You stopped liking the game, and it was probably because of a gameplay issue more than a social one.
Supply to a fortress or keep indeed does matter. Players can haul Supply 10 at a time from a resource camp they own, which they can use directly for some defense purposes, (mainly building defensive seige weapons, like cannons and oil), but some of the keep defenses require supply directly from the keep's supply depot. The supply depot does not replenish itself, but rather is supplied by Dolyak caravans that travel from resource camps the Fort owner controls with in proximity to the fortress.
To cut off their supply for reinforcing and rebuilding doors and walls, or other upgrades, an enemy needs to disrupt the flow of Supply, either by capturing the resource camps, or by intercepting and killing the supply caravans!
So, not only were Pokket and crew not making proper use of offensive seige engines, but they were oblivious to the greater strategy required to take a fortress or keep.
In short, just another case of someone who needs to Learn 2 Play grumbling about a game because of newb mistakes.
I mean, most people seemed to have no clue, as there is a learning curve and I fully expect it to take a few weeks after the game goes live for people to really begin to get how to play WvW and the community will continue to refine strategies well beyond that.
However, back to Pokket, as others have pointed out, if you are going to post a professional review, at least do your research so you don't come off as ignorant to the workings of the game you've reviewed. Nothing worse than to have most of your flaws for a game actually end up being flaws in your understanding of the game!
If I were her, I'd try to brush up on the game and give it a real go next BWE, with the goal of corrected her game play mistakes and with an open mind as to how the game might feel once you start to "get" how to play it.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I agree that I need to know the names of the people I've "marked for death". In every game I've played I have people that I mark to hunt when ever I'm out and I make certain I carry a high alert for them. Example would be Devilshugo in the abyss from Aion when I use to play. :-)
I hope they change that aspect, it does make things more personal.
They don't want things to be personal in WvW, and they aren't going to change it.
^ This. I really enjoyed those older... but not anymore.
I'm in the camp that feels I need to be building something while playing an online game, whether its social rep, higher scores, better character, etc. etc.
Fun factor works for awhile, but eventually the game's fun will not = getting drunk at a bar fun.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
Well...
maybe it is because I started playing MMORPG's with UO where there was no Gear Grind, and the rewards were of a much better nature than simply collecting virtual material things, which compells me to disagree with the OP.
For me the Reward is the Sheer Fun from the Battles and Struggle, Server Pride, and maybe even some Political Intreague if Sides do go in to Diplomacy to gank vs a third.
I do not play to collect Items...I play to have fun with my friends in the adventures we engage together. And the Adventures are Fun because of the Decisions and Actions we take not because there is a piece of Cheese waiting for us at the end.
I am maybe from a non-reward oriented Generation of players, but that is why GW2 really appeals to me, and that is why its WvWvW will be active and fun too compared to others (coughs WAR)...because it will be driven by people who are participating for the right reasons...to have fun.
All the materialistic reward driven players will be casuals anyways, and if they do not want to join in...thier loss, there is enough old schoolers to Drive WvWvW that will be playing GW2.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Well, I agree with OP and Pokket when it comes to structured PvP.
To sum it up: sPvP has NO REWARDS AT ALL that would be interesting for a PvE / mixed player.
This is a big mistake imo. Not having sPvP rewards doesn't improve the game in any way. I don't get it...
Hype train -> Reality
I don't care much for rewards other than having fun and challenge when it comes to PvP, but some small exp or cash reward would be nice.
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
Getting the endgame gear you need, and the endgames gear you want are two different things.
The gear you need is readily available through heart rewards or crafting and does not take a huge amount of effort to obtain.
The gear you want will probably take a lot more time and is by no means required to be effective or competitive.
DarkSpace Developer - Play DarkSpace - Play For Free!
Medusa Engine SDK - Free MMO Game Engine
Hampton Roads/East Coast Video Gamers Association
Perfect? GW2 isn't perfect, no game is. It's a good game, nothing more than that.
Actually the biggest "WTF" to me in that video was the way PvP was handled in the matches. Pretty much agree with everything she said there. Surprised no one else has commented on it.
The rest seemed minor although I thought she made some good points. Not sure I agree about the melee comments she made though.
Christ, some of you get so fucking defensive though. Gonna have a coronary if you don't watch it once this game goes live.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Thread is way TLDR... this may have been said before... hmm there's a deep universal truth in there...
I always enjoy Pokket's video reviews because she comes accross as a true MMO fan... only a true fan would include video footage of her pirate and a bunch of other giddy players doing some synchronized jumping while prone on the ground. I enjoyed that.
I also WvW'd with an elemetalist so I can relate to every thing she said. I have to say though that meleeing on the door or using a battering ram was something the groups I was with handled better than hers I guess. It certainly didn't make me think that it was a useless pursuit. We simply coordinated AOEing the boiling oil area constantly to prevent anyone from being up there... then melee on the door works...just a thought.
I tend to agree with her on the issue of meager PVP rewards. You should come out at least even after gear repairs and we don't--that needs tweaking. But I don't know why the OP in this thread used that comment as his launching pad for his therories of what went wrong with early DAOC before realm points.
I was in early DAOC and I believe that realm points and other individual rewards were in fact the beginning of the end. Once you start down the slippery slope of rewarding PvP with either items or abilities that buff you, you've just created a gear (or ability....similar concept) grind PVP. Gear grind creates an unfriendly and unwelcoming environment where new players need not apply because they'll never catch-up and will always be at a disadvantage. It also favors the no-life grinder who can spend 100+ hours per week getting way ahead of the curb so that he/she can dominate and feel superior... often despite lesser ability.
This is the same reason why in games with full PVP servers some people will do whatever they need to do so they can be the ganker and not the gankee. Tera's continuation of open beta characters and early release for pre-purchases are pretty well requirements for PVP servers. If you started on release day, you were already at a disadvantage.
GW2 is going out of its way to prevent that sort of unwelcoming PVP situation from happening. They're deliberately going in the opposite direction and I give huge kudos to them, for understanding the problem and addressing it in the many ways that they have. Even something like the controversial "no-name" policy is done in an attempt to attract those with no previous PVP experience into a harrasment-free fun system that they may just enjoy.
Personally, as a hard-core PVPer from way back, I will miss not knowing who that particularly skilfull archer from the other server is so I can make it my business to get him... but I can live with it becuase it's being done for the right reasons.
As far as scenario PVP goes... I'll take Pokket's word for it being WOWish and not innovative... personally I could care less since I intensely dislike e-sport PvP. If you enjoy that sort of thing, by all means go for it and I'll try not to be too obvious about thinking less of you for it
Anyone who has been MMOing for a while, especially if you were there at the beginning, will have noticed a deterioration of the behavior that is tolerated in MMO PvP... the phrase "if you don't like it play in a PvE server" is used to justify every imaginable type of asshattery and harrasment. People gank lowbees because they can do it without consequence and some peole do in fact enjoy annoying you constantly... don't have to go an further than these forums to see evidence of that.
So GW2... no mob tagging or resource hogging in PVE... no PVP ganking in PVE.... no chatting with the enemy in PVP.... no names on those PVP enemies.... no gear or abilty advantage to those who got there first... yup, it's being done deliberately and I love it. About time developers recognized the unfriendly cesspool MMOs have become and did something good and creative about it.
Will some people leave because of this? Sure, and good riddance. I'd rather spend my game time with those who stay.
Speaking of TLDR... this post got longer than I thought it would
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It's a fair point. Carrots on sticks do keep some people playing. I think many people ended up treating GW like a single-play game, and when the campaign was done, so were they. But for many people, PvP and titles and skill hunting were decent carrots.
But that isn't what drives me, and I think many people who are following GW2 feel the same way. I've played hundreds of hours of PvP in Halo games, and you never really get anything for all that. If the game is fun and the action compelling, I think many people will enjoy it. There are people who want a progression grind, and more power to them, but there are plenty of games out there that provide that. We don't really need another. But do we really know what all carrots there might be? Probably not. I am sure titles will keep some people interested, as will skill points, for a time. But those only last so long? There does seem to be a distinct lack of long-term carrots. But if they want it that way, maybe just don't want players who feel the need to chase carrots. Remember the origin of the metaphor. The horse chases the carrot, and the carriage moves more quickly, but the horse doesn't get anything out of it. Only the person holding the carrot out does.
Beyond that, we don't really know how this will play out at "end game," once most all the players from release are max level and running dungeons and events or PvPing or whatever. We don't know how that will work long-term, because nothing has provided a system that works in this way, including DAoC. A good example here is the names. In DAoC, that was key because of the competitive community being built, where you knew them and could think about what that guy you fought last week might do. In GW2, that won't be an issue, at least not for a very long time, should server rivalries get going, but the names of specific people you fight don't matter so much because you're not fighting the same poeple all the time. They are an ever-changeing faceless enemy. I am not sure if that's a good change or a bad one, but in the context of that change, having names doesn't matter one way or the other.
In that light, we can look at some of these changes and wonder how they might affect the logevity of the game. How much will gear matter? How much will specific stats matter for different builds? How difficult will it be to get a good level 80 set of gear for what your build is?
How will DEs play out long-term? How will they chain and cycle through? Will they become repetitive and we will do them by rote? Will encounters become a zergfest when everyone knows what to do and doesn't need to communicate? Or will they become zergfests just because we don't need to communicate because it's just not that hard in the first place? Will they make the world feel alive, or just become another thing that you do, rinse, and repeat of time? What about dungeons?
How will these things affect the game? We don't really know. I expect they have thought these things through and have come up with solutions, but really, we can't yet know how this will affect the community and the game itself as time wears on.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman