I think a lot of players used MMORPG games to replace their non-existent social lives in the 1990s and early 2000s. Back then mostly only "geeks" played these games. Geek back then meant a person that is single or in a bad relationship where they had no hobby or activity other than come home or stay home all day and play the game til they are exhausted.
They made "friends" and felt like they were part of something and so they had a social life now but it was online. They could waste full days and nights and not care or feel liek anything is wrong.
Nowadays everyone plays online games. Girls, jocks, "ghetto" people, rich, poor, mom, dad, even grand dad and still the nerds and geeks too. Now people know it is wrong to play too much as it is an addiction and bad for your health and life.
Now the people from the old days of online gaming miss how they could sit there and talk online hours and meet up with the same people each night for 6-8 hours and waste the night away. Most players do not want to do this today.
Why is this no longer the case? Because the players nowadays do not have 8-10 hours to waste. They have jobs, girlfriend/boyfriends, activities away from the computer that they do etc. The avergae person plays now and not just the no lifers like in the past.
People mostly want a game they can play 1-4 hours max. They don't have time to form a group for an hour and sit there 8-10 hours and just chat and have a social life online that replaces their real one.
I think you guys that are never happy no matter what game you try need to just be happier in your real life, get out more and use games as a hobby a couple hours a night. They are that, not meant to replace real life man..... It is not the games that are the problem, it is you. If you are never happy with any of them and always looking for something more, it is probably a hole in your real life that a game cannot ever patch up.
The parts of your post highlighted in purple are nothing more than your narrow minded opinion. Do you want to know how I can say that with absolute authority? It's because......
YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW WHAT EVERYONE ON THE PLANET HAS BEEN DOING SINCE THE 1990's.
Yeah I bet that's a real revelation for you right? Everything you have described cannot be applied to everyone. At best it could perhaps be an accurate description of some people. Your extremely hostile and negative portrayal of a geek for example is very obviously based on your spiteful opinion and nothing more. Geeks have no lives and no girlfriends? Says who? You? I think you need to mingle more with people from more varied social backgrounds as you seem to have lived a rather sheltered life.
In reply to the green text......ermm.....no sorry mmos actually have been pretty bad for quite a while now. You think everyone who thinks differently is unhappy with their lives? Are you actually capable of rational thought at all?
Here's a thought for you. When you started this post, how were you feeling?
You seem like a very unhappy person to me. I think you need to work on your own life before laying into the rest of this planets population.
I think its people like the original poster that doesn't have the gaming experience to realize that the genre (along with most other video games) has been dumbed down and homoginized to a point where they are basically a more interactive version of farmville. I don't care how many graphics or sounds you change in some of these MMO's, they are basically the same game we have played to death. I'm sorry I cannot maintain an attachment or a positive outlook on a game that is basically the equivlant of "pac-man with another graphical skin" .
Gone is the sense of pride in accomplishing something and it all boils down to the "Me" generation and the degredation of our society as a whole... One of the things I was taught in life that if you want something you must be willing to work for it. If you put in the effort you should reap the rewards, but when everything comes easy people become spoiled...
You seem to be acknowledging that mmo's have changed to meet the needs of people with less free time, but you think its players fault for not liking this? You've gotten it completely backwards and proved that it is the games.
You'd have more sense if you could have said games hadn't changed and now that gamers have less free time they are unhappy with the games. But you can't say that, because the games did change.
Think OP made the mistake of assuming that sandbox is more time intensive than it is. I also read a lot of his comments as insinuating that if you like to socialise online you must be a "no life geek".
I think a lot of players used MMORPG games to replace their non-existent social lives in the 1990s and early 2000s. Back then mostly only "geeks" played these games. Geek back then meant a person that is single or in a bad relationship where they had no hobby or activity other than come home or stay home all day and play the game til they are exhausted.
They made "friends" and felt like they were part of something and so they had a social life now but it was online. They could waste full days and nights and not care or feel liek anything is wrong.
Nowadays everyone plays online games. Girls, jocks, "ghetto" people, rich, poor, mom, dad, even grand dad and still the nerds and geeks too. Now people know it is wrong to play too much as it is an addiction and bad for your health and life.
Now the people from the old days of online gaming miss how they could sit there and talk online hours and meet up with the same people each night for 6-8 hours and waste the night away. Most players do not want to do this today.
Why is this no longer the case? Because the players nowadays do not have 8-10 hours to waste. They have jobs, girlfriend/boyfriends, activities away from the computer that they do etc. The avergae person plays now and not just the no lifers like in the past.
People mostly want a game they can play 1-4 hours max. They don't have time to form a group for an hour and sit there 8-10 hours and just chat and have a social life online that replaces their real one.
I think you guys that are never happy no matter what game you try need to just be happier in your real life, get out more and use games as a hobby a couple hours a night. They are that, not meant to replace real life man..... It is not the games that are the problem, it is you. If you are never happy with any of them and always looking for something more, it is probably a hole in your real life that a game cannot ever patch up.
Right, the stereotype of the classic MMORPG "nerd" aside - I know I wasn't one of those despite playing MMORPGs for over a decade now - yes, of course these days other "classes" of people play MMOs. They are what I call (caution: stereotype!) the "instant gratification generation": they don't have the time for long, drawn out gaming, rather they want it all and they want it, well, not now but within 10 min.
Now, frankly, with you suggesting that we, "the old guard", should adapt to the "new kids on the block", seriously, that is rather pompous!
Take a soccer match: 2 halftimes, each 45 min, total 90 min playtime.
Just because the "instant gratification generation" may think that sitting around watching a bunch of dudes chasing after a small ball on a green lawn shouldn't eat up 90+ min (don't forget overtime!) of their time, should the duration of the game in general be cut to 2 halftimes of say 15 min?
(Frankly, that would still be too long for me as I can't be arsed to find any fun and entertainment in that sport)
Guess at the outrage soccer fans will show if their expensive tickets to games really just entitle them to see 30 min of "their" game...
Wouldn't it be slightly more realistic to not mess with the things people are expecting, give them what they are used to, and rather have those who can't be bothered to invest the time either find a more fitting version of the game or just drop the game at all?
I do miss games where it took weeks, months to slowly "grind" up your character (because usually the "grind" was made fun, or at least to me as a classic 80s D&D player, I was used to my character not gaining a new level every time we did a session on the weekend), these days, if you start out a new game (even in early access), every minute not played is a huge loss due to the ease/speed you (and everybody else) are leveling up with.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "don't make games that the "instant gratification generation" can invest their 1-4 hours in", just accept that they are just one segment of the market.
Take SWTOR for example: frankly, the game is severely lacking in "endgame".
But it has huge content in the low-, mid- and even high-level PvE setup.
Yet sadly, you don't really have to use much of that content as you can easily get to max following some basic (class) quests. (Not to mention PvP)
Now, imagine that today, almost 5 months after release, even the most invested power gamer had only hit lvl40 on his one and onlySWTOR toon.
That the majority of SWTOR gamers who started out around release in Dec 2011 had their only toon at around lvl30(ish), or are maybe 25ish when they level two characters.
Imagine that anybody who has started SWTOR in the last 2-3 months is only now getting towards lvl20.
And now ask yourself, whether that would be bad!
PvP would (still) be fun as people wouldn't be that far apart in level (and potentially gear).
And yes, while maybe it takes a while to get that new skill (by levelling up), still you have fun completing that quest (because it's well made!), or that PvP fight (because you're not outlevelled/outgeared).
Okay, I should stop ranting - now!
But see, it's not that us who enjoy something AND ARE WILLING TO INVEST THE TIME IN IT(!) that should find something else to do (in RL), it is very much the game designers who need to accept that alternatives to "what is hip" need to be provided.
Last example: would you expect the car industry to build cars with smaller tanks as most people will only drive their car for less than 3 hours per week (completely random value picked there!) so gasing it up after approx. 1 hr of driving would be perfectly fine to most people. What about those who actually enjoy driving (not me)? Would you rob them of their (RL) joy of taking their car for a cross-country spin with their girlfriend by having them stop at a gas station 8 times that day?
Yes, give us our "friggin' game car" that we can "run" for 6, 8, 10 hours thru the night.
Because the game does entertain us in a way that reality can't... or would you rather see all those people playing FPS for half the weekend rather go out and shoot real people?
I mean, if you make me some real life magic, some real life orcs, some real life (not fake!) light sabers, some real life castle that I can lay siege to, yeah, I guess than I would do the things that only my PC (or my imagination) allows me to do, in real life rather than on the PC.
In short: Dear OP, maybe it is YOU who doesn't understand the concept of different people enjoying different things? Maybe because one has to be a "nerd" to do so and not just a mainstream "jock"?
for all this tera,aions wows and gw2 i just say good old conquer no p2w no bots and other crap. still can be enojyable and give a lot of fun especially when u cant play 10hours per day...
there's a lot f sites inside web about top 10 mmo and so on i just have no idea who make ranks like this? how do they check whats better? -.-
So many stereotypes, I'm actually quite impressed.
However, this conversation actually boils down to casual vs. hardcore, which can somewhat be summed up to your stereotypes, but not accurately, at all.
My current RIFT guild is full of players ranging from about 18-35ish. Guild master and most of the officers, raid leaders, all have jobs, employed, married, children. They still want us to raid for insane amounts of time for progression, our raid hours are typically 8:00pm PST-1:30am. I have half the responsibilities currently as them and pull half the gametime.
Your theory is debunk'd.
It's not a theory.
And my point isn't about raiding. Its not even about time played as much as the following:
I was talking about how people seem to want a game that they can sit there an talk all day in, build a town, a house, steal things, customize a character like in offline elder scrolls games, be able to do anything(sandbox) they can think of. They want a free open world to live in as if they were actually there.
They are trying to replace their real life by living a full life in a game where they can do anything they want.
No game is going to ever do this. Why? Because most peolpe don't want this, even the ones that say they do, do not once they have it..
When people do make a game like this such as darkfall then people realize its not even really fun to have such freedom with no real structure to follow. People say "what is there to do once I maxed my skills" since there is no questing or actual story or anything.
I just really think many people are trying to look for some game to make them happy and they won't because a game cannot replace real life. Also, games need a goal and a story and some structure to lead you around to make you work towards tings and feel liek you have accomplished something.
These people think that they will kill random people, loot them, open a shop and control the market and its as if they want to live a life through the game all day long in their head, seems insane and unhealty when you think about it. We all dream about game worlds and love games, but these ppl you see on the forums all day complaining about games and saying " i wand sandbox, i want hardcore" are truly mostly just sad in their life and mad at everything, looking for a fantasy world to replace life.
You can do mostly all that stuff in minecraft or darkfall or mortal online, but you see they still are not happy or playing these games? Why? Because they will always be sad since its their real life making them hate all the games, not the games at all. they are searchig for the never to be game and will always keep searching and miss out on all the fun the rest have in the games we actually have.
No man I am sorry for you, you are full of stereotypes and prejudice in your assertions. yes geeks exist yes some may not have what you see as a life but everyone does have a life. To a geek, his geeky existance is his life, because that is what he or she does that is how he or she lives and they are happy with it, nuff said, whether you agree with their lifestyle or not is really not important at all, they have the right to live as they see fit...this is why many of our ancestors gave their lives for, so that people have the freedom to choose how they live their lives.
Not to get too deep here, it boils down to this, games today are simply shallow because they do not even offer the opportunity for all to play as they feel. If you are a casula player, fine no one prevents you from being one, yet, why should you prevent a geek to stay in a agme for 8 hours and talk with other geeks.
The problem is that today's games do not offer that possibility to the geek.
Furthermore, what is it to you if some people want deep crafting, want to build Houses and decorate them for hours on ened. Don;t you know that you can still build a virtual house by simply playing 2 hours a day casually.
Problem is today's games do not offer these possibilities....again...
You are blaming other people because they have the immagination and creativity to be able to make their own stories and set their own goals by saying that games need to do these things for you. Sorry, again, the problem is the game which assumes that people are not capable of these things.
i have been playing since UO, I played UO for 5 years, and I still am one of those that wants a properly made Sanbox that is actually funa nd not a Marketing Ploy to get subs...And you know what, inspite of this fact (which under your definition would categorize me as a Geek with no life) i have also travelled around the Real World three times already, many different countries in all continents, spoken to, eat with and socialised with countless people of all these other countries, I speak 5 languages myself, with plenty of good friends i spend time with in the RL world...now how does that compare with "having a life" in your view? Do you still think that just because I prefer Sandbox games from the shallow games we have for those "with a life" such as yourself, that I am someone with no life?
Your OP and this reply could not be more narrowsighted than a charging elephant.
Please look in the mirror and judge yourself before you even attempting to judge others for their likings and preferences.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I almost feel like this very thread, or topic, has been here before.
Well, it's a fairly recent Dr. Phil rerun.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I am a happy no life geek. You're an unhappy yes life no geek. That possible? When you attack someone else worth it`s just reek of your own insecurity. You had a very strong snobbish tone. This is what happens when you`re insecure. You need to place yourself on a pedestal to feel more important or worthy of attention. You see others life style has inferior so you just wipe it with your arms. Do you pretend to have the voice of reason?
Really snobbish attitude. Not really condescending.. Since it`s just pretending to lower yourself since you see the next person has inferior. WHich make you condescending. For instance a nurse talking to a old person and taking a baby voice.. That condescending. Condescending it`s implying someone can`t understand you because they`re younger than you ..etc.
Hardcore does not simply mean 'more time playing'. It`s just mean more dedication to obtain something. More organization.
The casual want the arrow pointing in the right direction. That just that. He want every moment he play count. That exactly what make game so boring and linear. It`s just shallow and superflux .You`re playing just has much . Just require less planning .Before I could log in and end up with nothing possible to do and just log out for the day . Casual want to progress all the time. They want to log , do 50 quest and log out.
The soccer mom crowd invaded the mmorpg market in 2004. Nothing wrong with that . But now most mmorpg give me the same sensation I have when I see a new mcdo opening. It`s only there for profit . Also I`m not playing any mmorpg right now. I don`t want a super hardcore game. I want something fun.
Ive never met an mmorpg player that didnt love some game or games. Even recent ones. Not necessarily mmos.
But then again Ive never seen an mmorpg player that didnt love at least one or a few mmos. Even recent ones.
OP, what you're saying really doesnt apply to anyone and if it does, they dont like games at all, dont play them, and arent on mmorpg.com. So who are you talking to again? People register accounts here on mmorpg.com probably because they LIKE mmos. Not the other way around. Do they like all of them? Nah.
My stance is, if a game does poorly and nobody likes it that has to do with the developer and the publisher. I mean you could say its the players and not the developers or publishers.
In fact I will go so far to say it is indeed the players fault when they dont like bad games. Its their fault for actually having taste and intelligence.
MMO's and Gaming in general, were better when it was the domain of the "geek". The mega-corporations had all up to that point, ignored the video game industry as a niche, which coincidentally enough, was for "geeks".
WoW changed that, because now, just like everythign else in todays capitalist society, it was a market where piles of money could be made. Its was no longer about satisfying the customers you did have, it was about getting more and more paying customers, to make more and more money, by marketting to people who up to that point, maye have had, little to no interest in that product.
I've wondered why over the last 10 years why, companies in general (not just video games), can't be satisified with being profitable and providing a service or product, to a certain demographic of people. Was it going to be multiple billions of dollars? Maybe not, but it could have been a sustained success.
Now the video game industry is one of the biggest on the planet. Slowly surpassing even the movie and television industries, on the entertanment side.
The greed has reached epic proportions. So much so that innovation is almost non-existant, and most recently released games are nearly indistinguishable from one another. (Aside from cosmetics)
Eventually there will be a big failure in the industry which will force them to change directions. (Automotive industry for example?)
In the meantime, there are games for everyones playstyle out there, they are just harder to find now and don't tend to have the kind of staying power of the old games.
MMOs pre-WoW used to have a trend to them. They would start off with a decent amount of subs and steadily increase in subs over a 3-5 year period before they would start to decline through age. Even WoW followed this trend albiet at an accelerated growth rate. Every MMO since WoW this trend has changed dramatically. Now MMOs start strong and start to decline as soon as the free month is up until they usually level off at about half of their initial subs. This alone is the biggest indication of how MMOs have changed in the years since WoW.
As for the OP's claims... I have a great job, a beautiful loving wife and two great kids. I also like to game in my spare time. I have a pretty great life outside of gaming and I'd say it's better now than it was back in 1995-2004 when me and my wife first were getting our lives in gear and were starting a family... Not that my life back then was bad either. I'm also one of the ones on here complaining that games today are shallow when compared to the early days of MMOs. I kinda shoot your whole theory full of holes. Just because someone likes to spend time in a game world doesn't automatically mean their real life sucks. You should stick to your day job OP because you suck at Psychology.
Oh, and way to go insulting probably half the population of the gaming community with your little 'Theory' as well. Good job!
I kind of wish I hadn't grew up with UO. It kind of spoiled me. Growing up playing a sandbox and then when older seeing such linear MMOs makes you kind of throw up. I'll be giving Guild Wars 2 a shot for the PvP, was hoping TSW would be good but lack of information a month before release isn't encouraging.
Let's just say 10+ years ago I had though things would be a little more advanced than they are. At least when it comes to ideas/innovation. Not sure what happened..
Always remember folks, it's the customer's fault for not liking the product.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
MMOs were made originally for nerds, now nerds are a minority, that still keep talking about the good old days. But that is bullshit. The good old days were not so good. Playing UO was often a lagfest. Everquest had corpseruns and other mechanics that made playing tedious. PvP was nothing more than ganking. There was less content in MMOs than today and it was less polished.
However, only crafting has become more and more primitive thanks to WoW. I mean, when you look at the ideas they had in UO or SWG, it is a shame that nowadays crafting is so diappointing. Only Vanguard got it right. Apart from that I am very excited, when I look at all the new features of GW2.
For old-style-players there is still Vanguard (oh, you want Sandbox, go play Darkfall), which is really a good game. But, all those self proclamed hard-core-pro-players tend to play always mainstream MMOs like WoW, Rift or SWTOR. This is what I do not understand. That exactly the same hard-core guys who keep lamenting about games like WoW destroing everything, keep playing exactly these games.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
MMOs were made originally for nerds, now nerds are a minority, that still keep talking about the good old days. But that is bullshit. The good old days were not so good. Playing UO was often a lagfest. Everquest had corpseruns and other mechanics that made playing tedious. PvP was nothing more than ganking. There was less content in MMOs than today and it was less polished.
However, only crafting has become more and more primitive thanks to WoW. I mean, when you look at the ideas they had in UO or SWG, it is a shame that nowadays crafting is so diappointing. Only Vanguard got it right. Apart from that I am very excited, when I look at all the new features of GW2.
For old-style-players there is still Vanguard (oh, you want Sandbox, go play Darkfall), which is really a good game. But, all those self proclamed hard-core-pro-players tend to play always mainstream MMOs like WoW, Rift or SWTOR. This is what I do not understand. That exactly the same hard-core guys who keep lamenting about games like WoW destroing everything, keep playing exactly these games.
That is a rather dumb post, really!
So, you are telling me that e.g. watching movies in the say 1930s to 1980s was "not so good" as there was no DVDs, for most of that period not even VHS, same for THX, obviously no digital projection or digital sound, no digital cameras, no CGI, no 20 screen megaplexes, no video-on-demand for your TV at home or your PC, etc.?
Yeah, okay, move along citizen...
Technology has changed over time (both for movies and PC games) so obviously today's games can toy with other options (not the least of which is the size of the downloads which in turn can relate to the content a game offers), but making a movie like say "Gone with the Wind" with today's technology would not automatically mean that "hip Jerry Springer topics" would have to be included in favor of cutting out the topics that made the book/movie what it is.
Nor does having a (on average) better connect to the internet today mean that the time to level your character to the max can/needs be cut down to say 2 or 3 weeks.
Unless you are playing the card of "people these days don't want to level, they only want endgame"!?
In which case it's definitely still not ME who is at fault, it's the "instant gratification gamers" who are to blame... and the fact that game designers now suit games to fit that crowd.
(Interesting how when you change the "d" in "crowd" to an "s" the word actually becomes more fitting...)
Anyhow Mahavishnu, the problem is that we oldschool gamers also would like to see the advancement in technology in games we play. (Just going movies again for a sec) Star Wars EpIV was and is a great movie... which doesn't mean that I don't think the trench sequence really looked a bit too much like flying thru patched together shoeboxes. To be honest, haven't seen the latest digital updates for that movie, but that sequence would have been the first one in my book to get a digital makeover.
So yeah, if you want to take DAoC as an example: IF the game got a complete overhaul of its graphic engine (which they have already done once) to match today's standards, you wanna bet that there would be quite a flood of gamers going back to that game?
Or the other way around: if they were to pretty much make DAoC2 based on a modern graphic engine, but pretty much else just took classic DAoC and its content (except certain aspects) want to venture a guess how well that game would sell?
Neither is probably going to happen, so we need to go with what we are getting... which means games with nice graphics but potentially stink when it comes to content. But that doesn't mean we won't complain about the bad smell - that our neighbor to the right (read: the "instant gratification gamers") seems to like...
maybe our "landlord" (read: the game designers) will one day act upon our complaint...
Comments
The parts of your post highlighted in purple are nothing more than your narrow minded opinion. Do you want to know how I can say that with absolute authority? It's because......
YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW WHAT EVERYONE ON THE PLANET HAS BEEN DOING SINCE THE 1990's.
Yeah I bet that's a real revelation for you right? Everything you have described cannot be applied to everyone. At best it could perhaps be an accurate description of some people. Your extremely hostile and negative portrayal of a geek for example is very obviously based on your spiteful opinion and nothing more. Geeks have no lives and no girlfriends? Says who? You? I think you need to mingle more with people from more varied social backgrounds as you seem to have lived a rather sheltered life.
In reply to the green text......ermm.....no sorry mmos actually have been pretty bad for quite a while now. You think everyone who thinks differently is unhappy with their lives? Are you actually capable of rational thought at all?
Here's a thought for you. When you started this post, how were you feeling?
You seem like a very unhappy person to me. I think you need to work on your own life before laying into the rest of this planets population.
What he said and it isn't just games!
Deja vu...
I almost feel like this very thread, or topic, has been here before.
I think I'm reading this site too much.
It's not about fighting, it's about balance. It's not about enlightenment, it's about balance. It's not about balance.
You seem to be acknowledging that mmo's have changed to meet the needs of people with less free time, but you think its players fault for not liking this? You've gotten it completely backwards and proved that it is the games.
You'd have more sense if you could have said games hadn't changed and now that gamers have less free time they are unhappy with the games. But you can't say that, because the games did change.
Think OP made the mistake of assuming that sandbox is more time intensive than it is. I also read a lot of his comments as insinuating that if you like to socialise online you must be a "no life geek".
My theme song.
Right, the stereotype of the classic MMORPG "nerd" aside - I know I wasn't one of those despite playing MMORPGs for over a decade now - yes, of course these days other "classes" of people play MMOs. They are what I call (caution: stereotype!) the "instant gratification generation": they don't have the time for long, drawn out gaming, rather they want it all and they want it, well, not now but within 10 min.
Now, frankly, with you suggesting that we, "the old guard", should adapt to the "new kids on the block", seriously, that is rather pompous!
Take a soccer match: 2 halftimes, each 45 min, total 90 min playtime.
Just because the "instant gratification generation" may think that sitting around watching a bunch of dudes chasing after a small ball on a green lawn shouldn't eat up 90+ min (don't forget overtime!) of their time, should the duration of the game in general be cut to 2 halftimes of say 15 min?
(Frankly, that would still be too long for me as I can't be arsed to find any fun and entertainment in that sport)
Guess at the outrage soccer fans will show if their expensive tickets to games really just entitle them to see 30 min of "their" game...
Wouldn't it be slightly more realistic to not mess with the things people are expecting, give them what they are used to, and rather have those who can't be bothered to invest the time either find a more fitting version of the game or just drop the game at all?
I do miss games where it took weeks, months to slowly "grind" up your character (because usually the "grind" was made fun, or at least to me as a classic 80s D&D player, I was used to my character not gaining a new level every time we did a session on the weekend), these days, if you start out a new game (even in early access), every minute not played is a huge loss due to the ease/speed you (and everybody else) are leveling up with.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "don't make games that the "instant gratification generation" can invest their 1-4 hours in", just accept that they are just one segment of the market.
Take SWTOR for example: frankly, the game is severely lacking in "endgame".
But it has huge content in the low-, mid- and even high-level PvE setup.
Yet sadly, you don't really have to use much of that content as you can easily get to max following some basic (class) quests. (Not to mention PvP)
Now, imagine that today, almost 5 months after release, even the most invested power gamer had only hit lvl40 on his one and onlySWTOR toon.
That the majority of SWTOR gamers who started out around release in Dec 2011 had their only toon at around lvl30(ish), or are maybe 25ish when they level two characters.
Imagine that anybody who has started SWTOR in the last 2-3 months is only now getting towards lvl20.
And now ask yourself, whether that would be bad!
PvP would (still) be fun as people wouldn't be that far apart in level (and potentially gear).
And yes, while maybe it takes a while to get that new skill (by levelling up), still you have fun completing that quest (because it's well made!), or that PvP fight (because you're not outlevelled/outgeared).
Okay, I should stop ranting - now!
But see, it's not that us who enjoy something AND ARE WILLING TO INVEST THE TIME IN IT(!) that should find something else to do (in RL), it is very much the game designers who need to accept that alternatives to "what is hip" need to be provided.
Last example: would you expect the car industry to build cars with smaller tanks as most people will only drive their car for less than 3 hours per week (completely random value picked there!) so gasing it up after approx. 1 hr of driving would be perfectly fine to most people. What about those who actually enjoy driving (not me)? Would you rob them of their (RL) joy of taking their car for a cross-country spin with their girlfriend by having them stop at a gas station 8 times that day?
Yes, give us our "friggin' game car" that we can "run" for 6, 8, 10 hours thru the night.
Because the game does entertain us in a way that reality can't... or would you rather see all those people playing FPS for half the weekend rather go out and shoot real people?
I mean, if you make me some real life magic, some real life orcs, some real life (not fake!) light sabers, some real life castle that I can lay siege to, yeah, I guess than I would do the things that only my PC (or my imagination) allows me to do, in real life rather than on the PC.
In short: Dear OP, maybe it is YOU who doesn't understand the concept of different people enjoying different things? Maybe because one has to be a "nerd" to do so and not just a mainstream "jock"?
for all this tera,aions wows and gw2 i just say good old conquer no p2w no bots and other crap. still can be enojyable and give a lot of fun especially when u cant play 10hours per day...
there's a lot f sites inside web about top 10 mmo and so on i just have no idea who make ranks like this? how do they check whats better? -.-
for example http://adf.ly/8IkcE
but another site say that tera is better than wow but aion will be better soon or gw2 when released..
can any1 tell me why ppl cant just take fun from games not bilions of gold?
No man I am sorry for you, you are full of stereotypes and prejudice in your assertions. yes geeks exist yes some may not have what you see as a life but everyone does have a life. To a geek, his geeky existance is his life, because that is what he or she does that is how he or she lives and they are happy with it, nuff said, whether you agree with their lifestyle or not is really not important at all, they have the right to live as they see fit...this is why many of our ancestors gave their lives for, so that people have the freedom to choose how they live their lives.
Not to get too deep here, it boils down to this, games today are simply shallow because they do not even offer the opportunity for all to play as they feel. If you are a casula player, fine no one prevents you from being one, yet, why should you prevent a geek to stay in a agme for 8 hours and talk with other geeks.
The problem is that today's games do not offer that possibility to the geek.
Furthermore, what is it to you if some people want deep crafting, want to build Houses and decorate them for hours on ened. Don;t you know that you can still build a virtual house by simply playing 2 hours a day casually.
Problem is today's games do not offer these possibilities....again...
You are blaming other people because they have the immagination and creativity to be able to make their own stories and set their own goals by saying that games need to do these things for you. Sorry, again, the problem is the game which assumes that people are not capable of these things.
i have been playing since UO, I played UO for 5 years, and I still am one of those that wants a properly made Sanbox that is actually funa nd not a Marketing Ploy to get subs...And you know what, inspite of this fact (which under your definition would categorize me as a Geek with no life) i have also travelled around the Real World three times already, many different countries in all continents, spoken to, eat with and socialised with countless people of all these other countries, I speak 5 languages myself, with plenty of good friends i spend time with in the RL world...now how does that compare with "having a life" in your view? Do you still think that just because I prefer Sandbox games from the shallow games we have for those "with a life" such as yourself, that I am someone with no life?
Your OP and this reply could not be more narrowsighted than a charging elephant.
Please look in the mirror and judge yourself before you even attempting to judge others for their likings and preferences.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Well, it's a fairly recent Dr. Phil rerun.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
I am a happy no life geek. You're an unhappy yes life no geek. That possible? When you attack someone else worth it`s just reek of your own insecurity. You had a very strong snobbish tone. This is what happens when you`re insecure. You need to place yourself on a pedestal to feel more important or worthy of attention. You see others life style has inferior so you just wipe it with your arms. Do you pretend to have the voice of reason?
Really snobbish attitude. Not really condescending.. Since it`s just pretending to lower yourself since you see the next person has inferior. WHich make you condescending. For instance a nurse talking to a old person and taking a baby voice.. That condescending. Condescending it`s implying someone can`t understand you because they`re younger than you ..etc.
Hardcore does not simply mean 'more time playing'. It`s just mean more dedication to obtain something. More organization.
The casual want the arrow pointing in the right direction. That just that. He want every moment he play count. That exactly what make game so boring and linear. It`s just shallow and superflux .You`re playing just has much . Just require less planning .Before I could log in and end up with nothing possible to do and just log out for the day . Casual want to progress all the time. They want to log , do 50 quest and log out.
The soccer mom crowd invaded the mmorpg market in 2004. Nothing wrong with that . But now most mmorpg give me the same sensation I have when I see a new mcdo opening. It`s only there for profit . Also I`m not playing any mmorpg right now. I don`t want a super hardcore game. I want something fun.
Ive never met an mmorpg player that didnt love some game or games. Even recent ones. Not necessarily mmos.
But then again Ive never seen an mmorpg player that didnt love at least one or a few mmos. Even recent ones.
OP, what you're saying really doesnt apply to anyone and if it does, they dont like games at all, dont play them, and arent on mmorpg.com. So who are you talking to again? People register accounts here on mmorpg.com probably because they LIKE mmos. Not the other way around. Do they like all of them? Nah.
My stance is, if a game does poorly and nobody likes it that has to do with the developer and the publisher. I mean you could say its the players and not the developers or publishers.
In fact I will go so far to say it is indeed the players fault when they dont like bad games. Its their fault for actually having taste and intelligence.
MMO's and Gaming in general, were better when it was the domain of the "geek". The mega-corporations had all up to that point, ignored the video game industry as a niche, which coincidentally enough, was for "geeks".
WoW changed that, because now, just like everythign else in todays capitalist society, it was a market where piles of money could be made. Its was no longer about satisfying the customers you did have, it was about getting more and more paying customers, to make more and more money, by marketting to people who up to that point, maye have had, little to no interest in that product.
I've wondered why over the last 10 years why, companies in general (not just video games), can't be satisified with being profitable and providing a service or product, to a certain demographic of people. Was it going to be multiple billions of dollars? Maybe not, but it could have been a sustained success.
Now the video game industry is one of the biggest on the planet. Slowly surpassing even the movie and television industries, on the entertanment side.
The greed has reached epic proportions. So much so that innovation is almost non-existant, and most recently released games are nearly indistinguishable from one another. (Aside from cosmetics)
Eventually there will be a big failure in the industry which will force them to change directions. (Automotive industry for example?)
In the meantime, there are games for everyones playstyle out there, they are just harder to find now and don't tend to have the kind of staying power of the old games.
MMOs pre-WoW used to have a trend to them. They would start off with a decent amount of subs and steadily increase in subs over a 3-5 year period before they would start to decline through age. Even WoW followed this trend albiet at an accelerated growth rate. Every MMO since WoW this trend has changed dramatically. Now MMOs start strong and start to decline as soon as the free month is up until they usually level off at about half of their initial subs. This alone is the biggest indication of how MMOs have changed in the years since WoW.
As for the OP's claims... I have a great job, a beautiful loving wife and two great kids. I also like to game in my spare time. I have a pretty great life outside of gaming and I'd say it's better now than it was back in 1995-2004 when me and my wife first were getting our lives in gear and were starting a family... Not that my life back then was bad either. I'm also one of the ones on here complaining that games today are shallow when compared to the early days of MMOs. I kinda shoot your whole theory full of holes. Just because someone likes to spend time in a game world doesn't automatically mean their real life sucks. You should stick to your day job OP because you suck at Psychology.
Oh, and way to go insulting probably half the population of the gaming community with your little 'Theory' as well. Good job!
Bren
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It's the games.
I kind of wish I hadn't grew up with UO. It kind of spoiled me. Growing up playing a sandbox and then when older seeing such linear MMOs makes you kind of throw up. I'll be giving Guild Wars 2 a shot for the PvP, was hoping TSW would be good but lack of information a month before release isn't encouraging.
Let's just say 10+ years ago I had though things would be a little more advanced than they are. At least when it comes to ideas/innovation. Not sure what happened..
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
OP got it right.
MMOs were made originally for nerds, now nerds are a minority, that still keep talking about the good old days. But that is bullshit. The good old days were not so good. Playing UO was often a lagfest. Everquest had corpseruns and other mechanics that made playing tedious. PvP was nothing more than ganking. There was less content in MMOs than today and it was less polished.
However, only crafting has become more and more primitive thanks to WoW. I mean, when you look at the ideas they had in UO or SWG, it is a shame that nowadays crafting is so diappointing. Only Vanguard got it right. Apart from that I am very excited, when I look at all the new features of GW2.
For old-style-players there is still Vanguard (oh, you want Sandbox, go play Darkfall), which is really a good game. But, all those self proclamed hard-core-pro-players tend to play always mainstream MMOs like WoW, Rift or SWTOR. This is what I do not understand. That exactly the same hard-core guys who keep lamenting about games like WoW destroing everything, keep playing exactly these games.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
I'd probably fit right in with one of those "always unhappy MMO gamers" if I hadn't played GW2.
Thus the conclusion I can draw is, it's the game!
That is a rather dumb post, really!
So, you are telling me that e.g. watching movies in the say 1930s to 1980s was "not so good" as there was no DVDs, for most of that period not even VHS, same for THX, obviously no digital projection or digital sound, no digital cameras, no CGI, no 20 screen megaplexes, no video-on-demand for your TV at home or your PC, etc.?
Yeah, okay, move along citizen...
Technology has changed over time (both for movies and PC games) so obviously today's games can toy with other options (not the least of which is the size of the downloads which in turn can relate to the content a game offers), but making a movie like say "Gone with the Wind" with today's technology would not automatically mean that "hip Jerry Springer topics" would have to be included in favor of cutting out the topics that made the book/movie what it is.
Nor does having a (on average) better connect to the internet today mean that the time to level your character to the max can/needs be cut down to say 2 or 3 weeks.
Unless you are playing the card of "people these days don't want to level, they only want endgame"!?
In which case it's definitely still not ME who is at fault, it's the "instant gratification gamers" who are to blame... and the fact that game designers now suit games to fit that crowd.
(Interesting how when you change the "d" in "crowd" to an "s" the word actually becomes more fitting...)
Anyhow Mahavishnu, the problem is that we oldschool gamers also would like to see the advancement in technology in games we play. (Just going movies again for a sec) Star Wars EpIV was and is a great movie... which doesn't mean that I don't think the trench sequence really looked a bit too much like flying thru patched together shoeboxes. To be honest, haven't seen the latest digital updates for that movie, but that sequence would have been the first one in my book to get a digital makeover.
So yeah, if you want to take DAoC as an example: IF the game got a complete overhaul of its graphic engine (which they have already done once) to match today's standards, you wanna bet that there would be quite a flood of gamers going back to that game?
Or the other way around: if they were to pretty much make DAoC2 based on a modern graphic engine, but pretty much else just took classic DAoC and its content (except certain aspects) want to venture a guess how well that game would sell?
Neither is probably going to happen, so we need to go with what we are getting... which means games with nice graphics but potentially stink when it comes to content. But that doesn't mean we won't complain about the bad smell - that our neighbor to the right (read: the "instant gratification gamers") seems to like...
maybe our "landlord" (read: the game designers) will one day act upon our complaint...