Originally posted by Vhaln Yet look at the really old MMOs. M59, UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, CoH, SWG - all so different from one another. Then along came WoW, opening the genre up to millions of new players, and instead of taking advantage of that, devs have been squandering the opportunity by making one sub-par WoW clone after another. Maybe what the genre really needs is to get back to its pre-WoW roots, to start growing again.
The first few years of the genre it was still trying to build an identity for itself. When EQ released that became the foundation for the majority of the games after. Even games like DAoC and SWG modeled themselves fundamentally off of EQ.
Both DAoC and WoW could be said to be evolutions of the EQ formula. but SWG?! and what about all the others? The genre could have evolved in all different directions, improving and weeding out flaws, rather than just narrowing into this one direction.. of which yeah, it doesnt even evolve anymore. Even WoW clones arent evolutions of the WoW / EQ / DAoC formula, and thats the other part of the problem.
Evolution is supposed to be like a branching tree, that diversifies as it progresses. If it doesnt do that, if it instead narrows into a singular trunk, that isnt evolution, its stagnation, and tends to die out.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
(YIKES! I had linked the wrong article. lol. Ok THIS is the REAL one. Gomen. Thanks TwoThreeFour.^^)
"Veteran designer Warren Spector, whose credits include Deus Ex and System Shock, puts it best when he said in this 2007 interview "I'm one of those people who doesn't find anything interesting at all in leveling up, finding a +3 sword or paper-dolling a character with a purple cloak. That doesn't appeal to me in any way as a human being. Put that all together and the play experience of MMOs is on par with roleplaying back in ‘87." (OMG YES A 1000 TIMES YES!)
From cooldowns to instances to collecting ten of anything, most MMOs were, and still are, chores dressed up in the livery of a fictional universe. Aside from the basics of exploration and the lure of collecting loot and levelling up, there's been only one thing keeping people playing them, and stopping them from realising there's little difference between the banality of their daily grind to that of, say, a Farmville player."
Go and read the rest in the link. ^^
I can understand that POV. But it really makes no difference if people enjoy the games and have fun anyway. If something is fun its always good enough. This is true for most things in life.
If you like some specific type of music it makes no difference if its very simple and if most musicians playing it have no skill or talent. If you like it its good. It would be pointless for someone to try to explain that its simple and that the musicians are bad. And to try to convince you you are wrong and that you should listen to whatever they think is good music.
People are plaing the games for fun. Perhaps most people playing them can recognize the banality of the daily grind. But they dont care.
Evolution is supposed to be like a branching tree, that diversifies as it progresses. If it doesnt do that, if it instead narrows into a singular trunk, that isnt evolution, its stagnation, and tends to die out.
Evolution isn't driven by money that fears risk. And to be fair, the Gamer Herd Instinct works directly against innovative, risk-taking titles.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
When MMOs can be made without the years of investment of time and mucho money, you will see a lot more innovation. Investor led MMO development will almost always be very conservative, often to its detriment.
Hehe, gamer herd mentality....clever.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Vhaln Evolution is supposed to be like a branching tree, that diversifies as it progresses. If it doesnt do that, if it instead narrows into a singular trunk, that isnt evolution, its stagnation, and tends to die out.
Evolution isn't driven by money that fears risk. And to be fair, the Gamer Herd Instinct works directly against innovative, risk-taking titles.
Guess I did take the metaphor a little too far, but I do think the genre would be doing a lot better, if it were at least a bit more like evolution. I suspect the gamer horde will buy anything with the right sort of hype and pedigree, but they migrate elsewhere if it fails to be entertaining enough. I think this whole idea of playing it safe is actually self-defeating, but untill anyone dares try something different, I have no evidence of that, never mind proof.
I want to say GW2 will be the first real test of that, in a long time.. but I'm one of the few who hasn't actually tried it yet, so I'm afraid of jumping on that bandwagon just yet.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
i wonder why there even is a hostility to mmos. Espcially now when every single company tries to make an mmo.Obviosuly the market for mmos is quite large no matter some people like them or not. As long as those games generate ridicoulous amounts of money nothing will change.
Article kinda lost all credibility when it stated that TERA offers a radical departure from WoW's tired old formula.
I thought the exact same thing.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
"I've always hated MMO games." This is all you really need to know about the author. Why should his opinion on the matter mean anything to anyone who does like the genre?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
This is following the crowd of people that want action adventures online and not MMOs, also people that don't want to earn what they get in a game. This will just lead to even more shallow gameplay with non-challenging combat.
Yes, MMOs where designed to take place and mimic PnP RPG gameplay, what this article is discussing isn't a MMO but a co-op action adventure game. People need to start to understand the difference.
He claims he hates MMOs, and makes an incorrect assumption on the longetivity of the genre, but that doesn't mean the rest of the article isn't spot it. It very much is. It's amusing to me that the pessimistic sentiments felt toward TESO are being mirrored "across the web" (which is my experience as well), one of the people of the company developing it even specifically cited the "WoW mechanic", and yet people still insist on burying their heads in the sand and claiming they see no WoW in that game. Give me a break.
His main point is exactly what a lot of MMOers are complaining about, they're tired of being fed the same drivel within a new IP. That he's not an MMOer himself isn't that relevant, especially when he's right.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Have to agree with the writer, it is nice that we have plenty of MMOs to choose from but do they all need to have pretty much the same mechanics in different graphical style and setting? Not counting the few innovative ones that take their own path, like EVE or GW2. This is of course a topic that has been discussed to death but it is still, sadly, relevant.
EvE does bring some difference to the table but it is a complete snore fest, GW2 is not different enough, plays and feels just like a couple big titles that bombed on the market.... Tera has more sustainability and depth imo... just saying.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
He claims he hates MMOs, and makes an incorrect assumption on the longetivity of the genre, but that doesn't mean the rest of the article isn't spot it. It very much is. It's amusing to me that the pessimistic sentiments felt toward TESO are being mirrored "across the web" (which is my experience as well), one of the people of the company developing it even specifically cited the "WoW mechanic", and yet people still insist on burying their heads in the sand and claiming they see no WoW in that game. Give me a break.
His main point is exactly what a lot of MMOers are complaining about, they're tired of being fed the same drivel within a new IP. That he's not an MMOer himself isn't that relevant, especially when he's right.
For the past few years mmorpg's have been pretty stale. On that point you're preaching to the choir here. But the way he presents his arguments is very poor. I'm still wondering in what parallel unixverse is Tera "offering radical departures from Everquest and WoW's tired old formula"? Action combat is not innovative and has been done before multiple times.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Well, tbh, the last person I would ask for an opinion of the genre is someone who professes to hate it, admits a grudge against it, and says he never engaged with a community in one (and therefore missing the entire point of the actual games and the only thing that lifts them above solo player games for many).
MMORPGs have always been about the communities, the people, the friendships. He never was part of that, and so he will never get it.
His view is also jaundiced as only an outsiders can be when talking about something they don't understand (and therefore 'don't like'). He comes from a very limited place and is applying a very wide false logic to a very narrow set of objects.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I plan to watch on and off what the TES online demise becomes
It should be a momentous supernova. Or at least some spectacular fireworks along the way.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Find someone who would say"To be clear, I've always hated MMOs.."
Give them a microphone
In a pinch you can swap "MMO" and "Themepark" and achieve approx. the same results.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
(YIKES! I had linked the wrong article. lol. Ok THIS is the REAL one. Gomen. Thanks TwoThreeFour.^^)
"Veteran designer Warren Spector, whose credits include Deus Ex and System Shock, puts it best when he said in this 2007 interview "I'm one of those people who doesn't find anything interesting at all in leveling up, finding a +3 sword or paper-dolling a character with a purple cloak. That doesn't appeal to me in any way as a human being. Put that all together and the play experience of MMOs is on par with roleplaying back in ‘87." (OMG YES A 1000 TIMES YES!)
From cooldowns to instances to collecting ten of anything, most MMOs were, and still are, chores dressed up in the livery of a fictional universe. Aside from the basics of exploration and the lure of collecting loot and levelling up, there's been only one thing keeping people playing them, and stopping them from realising there's little difference between the banality of their daily grind to that of, say, a Farmville player."
Go and read the rest in the link. ^^
Elikal,maui aui man,you have EVE...besides that
We vets of now days are rly luck,we are living a time when the old fashion mmos are staying behind
Play TSW to test,i think it worth the try,besides its a themepark its MUCH DIFERENT of the old mmos,take a close look at www.thesecretworld.com
But the score willbe when archeage is released,with archeage we will definetly enter a new age for mmorpgs,it will be released around 2013
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys FH1942 best tanker for 4years Playing WWII OL for some years untill now many other for some months
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
This disclaimer is in every damn Kotaku article about MMOs that I read. They are openly hostile to MMOs in general and their writers don't play them.
This article also states that the mmo genre is dying and that soon noone will make MMOs any more.
I find it hard to take them seriously on any topic related to MMOs. They simply have no credibility on the subject am frequently don't know what the f they are talking about.
Some will say that their outside perspective on the genre is valuable, but I disagree. They dont know what they are talking about and they are very clearly biased.
Kotaku is useless when it comes to discussing MMOs. That article was utterly a waste of time to read.
The fact he doesnt see the difference between pre-WoW and post-WoW MMORPGs means he really shouldn't be wasting his time writing uninformed garbage. Now if he wants to talk specifically about the WoW type of theme park, thats fine, but he is lumping the UO/EQ/AC/DAoC/AO/FFXI/SWG/EQOA/EVE era of MMORPGs when the genre was highly creative with the current crop is ridiculous.
What so many people seem to forget is that, at least in the west, is that if you remove WoW from the picture, the genre was more successful pre-WoW than post-WoW.
Comments
I never take anything Kotaku writes seriously.
Both DAoC and WoW could be said to be evolutions of the EQ formula. but SWG?! and what about all the others? The genre could have evolved in all different directions, improving and weeding out flaws, rather than just narrowing into this one direction.. of which yeah, it doesnt even evolve anymore. Even WoW clones arent evolutions of the WoW / EQ / DAoC formula, and thats the other part of the problem.
Evolution is supposed to be like a branching tree, that diversifies as it progresses. If it doesnt do that, if it instead narrows into a singular trunk, that isnt evolution, its stagnation, and tends to die out.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I can understand that POV. But it really makes no difference if people enjoy the games and have fun anyway. If something is fun its always good enough. This is true for most things in life.
If you like some specific type of music it makes no difference if its very simple and if most musicians playing it have no skill or talent. If you like it its good. It would be pointless for someone to try to explain that its simple and that the musicians are bad. And to try to convince you you are wrong and that you should listen to whatever they think is good music.
People are plaing the games for fun. Perhaps most people playing them can recognize the banality of the daily grind. But they dont care.
Evolution isn't driven by money that fears risk. And to be fair, the Gamer Herd Instinct works directly against innovative, risk-taking titles.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
When MMOs can be made without the years of investment of time and mucho money, you will see a lot more innovation. Investor led MMO development will almost always be very conservative, often to its detriment.
Hehe, gamer herd mentality....clever.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Guess I did take the metaphor a little too far, but I do think the genre would be doing a lot better, if it were at least a bit more like evolution. I suspect the gamer horde will buy anything with the right sort of hype and pedigree, but they migrate elsewhere if it fails to be entertaining enough. I think this whole idea of playing it safe is actually self-defeating, but untill anyone dares try something different, I have no evidence of that, never mind proof.
I want to say GW2 will be the first real test of that, in a long time.. but I'm one of the few who hasn't actually tried it yet, so I'm afraid of jumping on that bandwagon just yet.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
i wonder why there even is a hostility to mmos. Espcially now when every single company tries to make an mmo.Obviosuly the market for mmos is quite large no matter some people like them or not. As long as those games generate ridicoulous amounts of money nothing will change.
I thought the exact same thing.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Recipe for success on MMORPG.com:
Find someone who would say "To be clear, I've always hated MMOs.."
Give them a microphone
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"I've always hated MMO games." This is all you really need to know about the author. Why should his opinion on the matter mean anything to anyone who does like the genre?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Kotaku is one of the biggest piece of trash magazines around so everything kotaku suggest or think is good is in my opinion trash!
This is following the crowd of people that want action adventures online and not MMOs, also people that don't want to earn what they get in a game. This will just lead to even more shallow gameplay with non-challenging combat.
Yes, MMOs where designed to take place and mimic PnP RPG gameplay, what this article is discussing isn't a MMO but a co-op action adventure game. People need to start to understand the difference.
in the future every game will be an mmo, this writer is clueless if he thinks they are going to die off.
He claims he hates MMOs, and makes an incorrect assumption on the longetivity of the genre, but that doesn't mean the rest of the article isn't spot it. It very much is. It's amusing to me that the pessimistic sentiments felt toward TESO are being mirrored "across the web" (which is my experience as well), one of the people of the company developing it even specifically cited the "WoW mechanic", and yet people still insist on burying their heads in the sand and claiming they see no WoW in that game. Give me a break.
His main point is exactly what a lot of MMOers are complaining about, they're tired of being fed the same drivel within a new IP. That he's not an MMOer himself isn't that relevant, especially when he's right.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
EvE does bring some difference to the table but it is a complete snore fest, GW2 is not different enough, plays and feels just like a couple big titles that bombed on the market.... Tera has more sustainability and depth imo... just saying.
I enjoyed the first sentence of this article.
I plan to watch on and off what the TES online demise becomes
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
For the past few years mmorpg's have been pretty stale. On that point you're preaching to the choir here. But the way he presents his arguments is very poor. I'm still wondering in what parallel unixverse is Tera "offering radical departures from Everquest and WoW's tired old formula"? Action combat is not innovative and has been done before multiple times.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Well, tbh, the last person I would ask for an opinion of the genre is someone who professes to hate it, admits a grudge against it, and says he never engaged with a community in one (and therefore missing the entire point of the actual games and the only thing that lifts them above solo player games for many).
MMORPGs have always been about the communities, the people, the friendships. He never was part of that, and so he will never get it.
His view is also jaundiced as only an outsiders can be when talking about something they don't understand (and therefore 'don't like'). He comes from a very limited place and is applying a very wide false logic to a very narrow set of objects.
Therefore, opinion discarded.
Anyone got a nice wood shed we can use?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
It should be a momentous supernova. Or at least some spectacular fireworks along the way.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
In a pinch you can swap "MMO" and "Themepark" and achieve approx. the same results.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Elikal,maui aui man,you have EVE...besides that
We vets of now days are rly luck,we are living a time when the old fashion mmos are staying behind
Play TSW to test,i think it worth the try,besides its a themepark its MUCH DIFERENT of the old mmos,take a close look at www.thesecretworld.com
But the score willbe when archeage is released,with archeage we will definetly enter a new age for mmorpgs,it will be released around 2013
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
I think ihe panders to a subsection of the mmorpg community who lap it up like loyal dogs.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Kotaku is useless when it comes to discussing MMOs. That article was utterly a waste of time to read.
The fact he doesnt see the difference between pre-WoW and post-WoW MMORPGs means he really shouldn't be wasting his time writing uninformed garbage. Now if he wants to talk specifically about the WoW type of theme park, thats fine, but he is lumping the UO/EQ/AC/DAoC/AO/FFXI/SWG/EQOA/EVE era of MMORPGs when the genre was highly creative with the current crop is ridiculous.
What so many people seem to forget is that, at least in the west, is that if you remove WoW from the picture, the genre was more successful pre-WoW than post-WoW.