What needs to be done is they need to redo the entire game from the ground up, so that its not just a starwars skin draped over world of warcraft like it currently is. It just makes me wonder with the budget bioware had for swtor how the hell did they arrive at the current piece of shit the game actually is? I mean didn't they do any market research that would probally show people are getting sick of themeparks and being tied down to a set rail-like path?
Sadly this applies for Tera, GW2, and TSW as well, all are basically wow-like/wow-wannabe's with very little innovation, major innovation winner is prob gw2 though. Me? Only mmo that looks decent in the coming year or so is phantasy star online 2, because if you watch some video's you'll relize fast its not just another themepark wow-clone like pretty much every mmo released today ends up.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
As in finally admit Star Wars is better watched than played.
You want us to pretend there have never been any good Star Wars games just because SWTOR sucks? heh.
There is no reason to pretend.
Then you never should have bought Knights Of the Old Republic Online if you didnt think the single player games were good. And anyone that thinks Rogue Squadron was a bad game...didnt play it.
And yet the same company that made it, made an MMO by copying its formula and now we are here in a thread asking what can be done to fix it....
KOTOR = Baldur's Gate personalities, dialogue and story quality + Jade Empire gameplay
Rogue Squadron = reskinned Wing Commander
What made both of those games fun was that they were fun games reskinned to include the Star Wars IP. That's usually a fairly easy way to make a game fun from Star Wars to TMNT.
I don't want to be a troll....
But KOTOR was released in 2003. Jade Empire was released in 2005. So wouldn't it be appropriate to state that Jade Empire had KOTOR gameplay instead?
Originally posted by iceman00 I don't want to be a troll....
Apparently you do...
Originally posted by iceman00 Of course, that's an honest attempt at looking at something. you most certainly aren't interested in doing anything objective or honest.
Originally posted by iceman00 But KOTOR was released in 2003. Jade Empire was released in 2005. So wouldn't it be appropriate to state that Jade Empire had KOTOR gameplay instead?
The system was in development for an unannounced game when they got the Star Wars deal. After Jade Empire came out most in the industry agreed that was the unannounced title.
Originally posted by iceman00 Funny, I never exploited those imbalances and bugs. Even when i played my CM, I found ways to play it other than the 2k tick mind poison. Against an experienced pvp group, those scrubs were fodder. We all knew the game had some bugs. But it had one of the greatest economies ever in a game. It had one of the best social communities ever established in a game. And it had a relatively functional pvp (if not rvr) system. Given the fact that most MMOs during that time were hot buggy messes, it was a good game for its time. Of course, that's an honest attempt at looking at something. you most certainly aren't interested in doing anything objective or honest.
Then you were certainly in the minority. However your post does not address what I posted about 1,000,000 boxes and 250,000 subs being a massive vote against the Pre-CU.
The great economy? You mean the one where new players couldn't afford weapons and armor because they were priced at thousands of credits for grind garbage? They couldn't even consider the 10 million credit top of the line weapons and armor. The kind that were imperative to be competitive in what you call 'relatively functional pvp'.
Want to break into that awesome sandbox crafting and harvesting? Sorry, the harvesters weren't even for sale for credits. You had to be in one of the special guilds or friends with an established architect to even get your hands on the big harvesters.
Community? You mean the forced community of sitting down to a glorified chat room for doctor buffs? Yea, you seem to be remembering with a biased haze. The way I remember it is a bored afk doctor with a circle of afk adventures around him. The only interaction was the 10,000 credits handed over when you sat down and then the 10 minutes plus of afk just to get buffs.
How about those cantinas? No chat bubbles, no interaction, just more credit drops, afk players and bored entertainers whining on the forums about making the adventurers stay at their keyboards and talk to them. (If you know the name Kwee from Ten Ton Hammer, then you know I speak the truth) So much for 'one of the best communities'.
PvP? It was popular for some of the 250k subs. Unlock Jedi making everyone cry, CH and their rancors wiping entire guilds, and that lovely poison exploit you so proudly avoided. Who else did? Because I didn't see them, and the forums sure never quieted down about it.
So yea, let's review... Imbalanced Professions/PvP - Check! (of course I did mention this earlier) Boring buff system hazily remembered as 'community' - Check! Broken economy within three months of release? - Check!
You know your fond memories, I know the reality.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Of course, that's an honest attempt at looking at something. you most certainly aren't interested in doing anything objective or honest.
Originally posted by iceman00
But KOTOR was released in 2003. Jade Empire was released in 2005. So wouldn't it be appropriate to state that Jade Empire had KOTOR gameplay instead?
The system was in development for an unannounced game when they got the Star Wars deal. After Jade Empire came out most in the industry agreed that was the unannounced title.
Originally posted by iceman00
Funny, I never exploited those imbalances and bugs. Even when i played my CM, I found ways to play it other than the 2k tick mind poison. Against an experienced pvp group, those scrubs were fodder.
We all knew the game had some bugs. But it had one of the greatest economies ever in a game. It had one of the best social communities ever established in a game. And it had a relatively functional pvp (if not rvr) system. Given the fact that most MMOs during that time were hot buggy messes, it was a good game for its time.
Of course, that's an honest attempt at looking at something. you most certainly aren't interested in doing anything objective or honest.
Then you were certainly in the minority. However your post does not address what I posted about 1,000,000 boxes and 250,000 subs being a massive vote against the Pre-CU.
The great economy? You mean the one where new players couldn't afford weapons and armor because they were priced at thousands of credits for grind garbage? They couldn't even consider the 10 million credit top of the line weapons and armor. The kind that were imperative to be competitive in what you call 'relatively functional pvp'.
Want to break into that awesome sandbox crafting and harvesting? Sorry, the harvesters weren't even for sale for credits. You had to be in one of the special guilds or friends with an established architect to even get your hands on the big harvesters.
Community? You mean the forced community of sitting down to a glorified chat room for doctor buffs? Yea, you seem to be remembering with a biased haze. The way I remember it is a bored afk doctor with a circle of afk adventures around him. The only interaction was the 10,000 credits handed over when you sat down and then the 10 minutes plus of afk just to get buffs.
How about those cantinas? No chat bubbles, no interaction, just more credit drops, afk players and bored entertainers whining on the forums about making the adventurers stay at their keyboards and talk to them. (If you know the name Kwee from Ten Ton Hammer, then you know I speak the truth) So much for 'one of the best communities'.
PvP? It was popular for some of the 250k subs. Unlock Jedi making everyone cry, CH and their rancors wiping entire guilds, and that lovely poison exploit you so proudly avoided. Who else did? Because I didn't see them, and the forums sure never quieted down about it.
So yea, let's review...
Imbalanced Professions/PvP - Check! (of course I did mention this earlier)
Boring buff system hazily remembered as 'community' - Check!
Broken economy within three months of release? - Check!
You know your fond memories, I know the reality.
I played the Pre-CU about a year after the release untill the NGE hit, the best time in the game. It was a massive sprawling economic sucess, thousands of player made tents with vendors hanging all there belongings for people to see. There were hundreads of player run cities all designed unique to there taste, every time you logged on it was a new expierence because the players could truly build and form the world into something of there own. It was, in the simplest sence, the definition of what made sandboxes.
Theres a lot of great things to tell about the game, the evolution of mmorpgs cant help but take notice to SWG and what the game did for the genre. Like most things in life, failure dosn't mean it wasnt sucesfull in the long run. As such with SWG, even though for being way ahead of its time in terms of inovation, getting everything to run took a long time, and I got lucky cause I got to play the best time of the game, a year after all the bugs had been worked out.
Looking back on it now though, the game had already been damanged beyond repair even in the times between pre-cu and the nge. People had different ideas of what they wanted the game to be, and that I think played a big role in the games downfall. I think the code was genious, the game it self was a master piece, the way it flowed and the way the community fed off of each other given the time frame in mmos, it was very well planned and executed.
I just wanted to say, I always keep SWG on my HD cause its a great game and play it regularly.
So you're saying Pre-CU SWG was fun to some people the same way torture renamed to masochism is fun to some people?
While you may be right in the strictest logic of that statement, the statement does not absolve Pre-CU from being un-fun to the vast majority of people that were exposed to it. One of the strongest indicators about the turn-off of the game for the oringinal subscribers was the commonly heard complaint, 'I don't play a Star Wars game to be Lars Skywalker'.
As far as missing the point, I replied directly to your point about the 'uniqueness' of the systems. Trying to change your point from system originality to broad playstyle appeal, and then claiming I missed the original point is being evasive and argumentative.
I'm glad that someone has the omnipotent ability to have captured the zeitgeist of pre-cu SWG. Nobody liked Bio-engineer, or chef. Nobody made a droid engineer. They wanted to be stuffed into smaller boxes and made to go kill mobs because no one wants to be Lars Skywalker. Yeah, I remember strolling though Coronet learning skills from other players and being admonished about staying away from that boring old skill system.
Needs to be done, to call a halt to the lowering numbers of suscriprions and make new people and old fans interested intoo this game again?
Can it be saved at all?
Yeah, but it is hard work. You need to put a lot more focus on multiplayer and massive content.
The game need to feel more like a MMORPG if they want monthly subs. It is a fine single player game or game you play with a few close friends, but it needs to be a fine MMORPG as well.
Originally posted by eycel I played the Pre-CU about a year after the release untill the NGE hit, the best time in the game. It was a massive sprawling economic sucess, thousands of player made tents with vendors hanging all there belongings for people to see. There were hundreads of player run cities all designed unique to there taste, every time you logged on it was a new expierence because the players could truly build and form the world into something of there own. It was, in the simplest sence, the definition of what made sandboxes.
It was not an economic success whether you meant it in-game or out. The economy was a disaster within a few months of release. Try actually reading what you quote if you want examples.
The devs used the only currency reference they had a available to form the intended economy. 10,000 credits was meant to be a life's savings for the average person. (Based on Luke exclaiming, "10 thousand? We can almost buy our own ship for that!") The mission terminals were geared in that light. Within a couple of months 10K was chump change only good for getting a few hours of buffs. The mission terminal was exploited to get tens of thousands of credits per DAY.
Player shops and cities were a decent idea, but just like in UO. It turned most of the game into urban blight. Instead of tatooine being a massive desert it was a huge city with sand everywhere. How could Luke have ever gone out into a wasteland if he kept seeing a shop or city over every hill?
Sorry but if that defines 'sandbox' them lineage is a sand box because you can set up a player shop and sell your items. You can set it up anywhere the game allows.
Originally posted by eycel
Theres a lot of great things to tell about the game, the evolution of mmorpgs cant help but take notice to SWG and what the game did for the genre. Like most things in life, failure dosn't mean it wasnt sucesfull in the long run. As such with SWG, even though for being way ahead of its time in terms of inovation, getting everything to run took a long time, and I got lucky cause I got to play the best time of the game, a year after all the bugs had been worked out.
Well I certainly agree that MMO's after SWG certainly were forced to take notice. I'm not so sure it was as positive and you believe. But, I will have to disagree about failure being a success in the long run. Failure is failure, if you think the devs are happy about SWG failing and wouldn't prefer to see it with millions of subscribers and more than a decade of longevity then you might be over-estimating their philanthropic natures. As far as SWG innovation, most of the influences came from UO, which is understandable as much of the UO dev team simply strolled out of the Origin office up US 183 exited onto Jollyville Rd. and into the doors of SoE Austin.
Originally posted by eycel
Looking back on it now though, the game had already been damanged beyond repair even in the times between pre-cu and the nge. People had different ideas of what they wanted the game to be, and that I think played a big role in the games downfall. I think the code was genious, the game it self was a master piece, the way it flowed and the way the community fed off of each other given the time frame in mmos, it was very well planned and executed. I just wanted to say, I always keep SWG on my HD cause its a great game and play it regularly.
Damaged between Pre-CU and NGE? It was damaged goods right out of the box. Even Raph Koster has said in post-mortems on SWG that they had to ship it early, and that it had tons of unfinished systems, code, and design. Heh, Well I'm am glad you like the code, but that's one area I can tell you was pretty hairy even at launch, and it only got more 'organic' (I'm being kind) and cryptic as time went on. By the end, whole systems were left alone or scrapped because the code was black box to anyone still on the team. A masterpiece where the community fed off of each other? Maybe like lions and hyenas, but 'masterpiece' is definitely heavy handed, and well-planned and executed? Haha... no... just no. I won't go into it, but yea, Just no.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I don't think they need to do much to the game. I think abilitys in game need a lot of work. There just way to many abilitys to micro mange in combat. I think adding macro would be a good start. Also I think PVP space battles would be another element they should think about adding in. I mean come on space combat is half the fun of Star Wars. I mean killing your fellow gamers in space would keep players in game.
I do think this game will go free to play at some point. I think that as fun as the game is it doesn't quite offer the content that keeps large groups of players for years. That is just my opinion any way.
Seriously though, I don't think they can do much at all to stop players leaving. With gw2,Tera and tsw releasing they will take a hit.
No thanks on the NGE, SOE screwed the pooch on that one.
GW2 I can see for a while till their hype dies down as well, TERA doesn't look like a serious threat since it seems it's made for a niche crowd that loves Asian Style graphics in their game with a different combat system..
I will be trying TSW since it targeted for a more older audience and thank god there is no Orcs, Elves and Dwarves in this game. Despite it being funcom, I usually go agaist the grain anyways when it comes to mmo's.
I still think SWToR can pull it off, you don't need 10 million subs to be successful and it's still way too soon to Doom and Gloom the game. Haters are just going to hate.
This is my opinion...developers should take their AAA money and make a AAA sandbox with more punishing mechanics than current themeparks.
But will enough play it to cover the development costs. Right now the feeling of the industry money is no.
I would like to see a game with a fixed version of the CU SWG combat and skills system. I would like to see it with far more themeparks. The housing and city system was fun but I have to admit that I agree with what others have said and it turned places like Tat into planet cities and it was no longer the open desert of the movies and stories.
Seriously though, I don't think they can do much at all to stop players leaving. With gw2,Tera and tsw releasing they will take a hit.
No thanks on the NGE, SOE screwed the pooch on that one.
GW2 I can see for a while till their hype dies down as well, TERA doesn't look like a serious threat since it seems it's made for a niche crowd that loves Asian Style graphics in their game with a different combat system..
I will be trying TSW since it targeted for a more older audience and thank god there is no Orcs, Elves and Dwarves in this game. Despite it being funcom, I usually go agaist the grain anyways when it comes to mmo's.
I still think SWToR can pull it off, you don't need 10 million subs to be successful and it's still way too soon to Doom and Gloom the game. Haters are just going to hate.
If it doesn't change it will die.
So nonsense NGE references aside, if they don't do something different this game will go into the shitter for sure.
Sure, remove the monthly fee and stop calling it an MMORPG and call it what it is, a single player RPG built with online capabilities.
If they do that, I will call it a great game...as is, its a good story in a really really bad MMO.
This is a lot how I feel. In my opinion, ToR is very much like KotOR and in that sense it is a pretty good game. However, the MMO aspects are really under-developed.
They absolutely have to put more development in the community tools aspects of the game: guilds, groups, the who function, etc. They put in such an overly stream-lined UI for that aspect that it lacks function. Gone are the days were MMO companies can get away with that: those tools should have been in the game from scratch.
For example, what gives with releasing guild banks and yet only one person (the GM) can read the log of what goes in and what goes out? In every other game that has guild banks, it can be set who sees what and I think that is a very valuable tool, especially if your GM goes on holiday or has a busy real life. Or how about the fact that there is no lfguild interface either? Sure, older games shipped without, but even a lot of those have been adding lfguild tools since (DAoC and WoW for example).
They need to flesh out the world aspect of the game too. Adding things like day/night cycles could help with immersion. Removing sociability as it is now in order to acquire fluff items would help. Those are just two examples, there is so much they could do to improve this and would take up an entire thread as of in itself. People burn out when there isn't that much immersion, so this is not as unimportant a thing as it might seem offhand.
I feel that outside of the sociability score thing there is very little to get people to hang out with one another in this game and that is a real pity. It is not bad if you are looking at ToR as a single player experience, but we are paying 15 USD/month for that single player experience. This is what is starting to burn me up. I do actually like ToR overall, it has a lot of positive aspects but the lack of MMO is really what frustrates me and is probably going to be the main factor that gets me to unsub.
reject archainc and not-too-good-working EQ/WoW models
adapt models that actually encourage people playing together
adapt models that keep people playing for longer instead "classic" raid once a week and have your head explode from dailies to grind for gear, reduce importance of gear considerably and make gear pretty much cosmetic thingy
adapt models that enlarge game world as you progress instead shrink it
give players more effect over end-game worlds (make endgame sandbox-type)
make short-mid-long term goals for players on every "group number" level (solo-group-raid)
make short-mid-long term goals for guilds on every "group number" level
make short-mid-long term goals for factions on every "group-numbr" level
....
...
...
...
But yah, that has been said on their forums for years. Only thing that was heard from them is "we are WoW-clone".
To SLOW down bleeding.
admit PvP is just mini game for PvEers where they collect different set of gear (like LOTRO/WOW)
fix performance
release more intriguing class stories and make em focus instead of generic quest hubs
They had a real opportunity with this game, and they really botched it.
What needs to be done?
I'd say first off, announce a XvT-style space expansion with real simulation space combat and territory control. That'd be step #1 (aside from server mergers).
After that, I think the Republic / Empire space station hubs need to be erased and forgotten about. The faction main planets should become the hubs for the respective players. A focus on in-game hangouts needs to happen that is reminiscent of SWG's focus on players needing other players. I.E. Entertainer profession and an overall emphasis on players seeking out other players for goods and services.
Player run capital ships that also focus as Guild bases in space and player housing. Tier'd levels of rooms onboard the ships that can be purchased and personlized/decorated as the player desires. These ships should also be capapble of particpating in PVP in space to inspire protection of one's own turf/home.
I think pvp in space needs to lend to pvp on ground. Like the Star Destroyer boarding the Rebel Blocakde Runner. Boarding operations and a gateway to planetary conflics. Potentially Guilds owning their own worlds for personal guild benefits. (sounds like EVE/Dust, well guess what, it should).
Basically, SW:TOR needs to draw players back with a show of pure Innovation in its upcoming features.
Not innovating, and just continuing to release mundane World of Warcraft systems, will inspire NO substantial increase playerbase for this title.
Honeslty this guy has 10x more of a handle on the SW Universe and what makes the game FUN than both Dallas Dickenson and James "10 people all beating on the same mob just isnt very heroic" Ohlen and the incompetent PvP lead Gabe Antangelo(or whatever his name is).
Step #1 Fire those 3 guys and hire this guy. Step #2 put someone at the top that wants to make a Star Wars game and NOT World of Warcraft in space. It's like they took the most hardcore WoW fanboy's to create this game and tried to sprinkle Star Wars all over it when it should have been the other way around.
I don't think the "WoW genes" or the broken PVP are the real reasons this game is falling appart, it worked well for games like Lotro or Rift . The way they designed the game could work, if it wasn't about HOW the implemented it. Yes it would be still a poor copy but it would at least work.
A MMO needs a bit of...diversity and a lot of deepth. Game HUBS should be there for ease of access, but they shouldn't be the only place you can get things done. Just changing the location isn't going to change this flawed system.
SWTORs real issue is about how the implemented everything. Now we could give SWTOR a lot of deepth by making all companions unlocked for EVERY CLASS / Faction. Alter the story a bit so they can be either obtained like now, and for other faction / classes at a different place.? Right?
WRONG.
SWTOR was build that EVERY companion scene needs to HAPPEN at this specific location (That includes your ship), at this angle, at this moment in the story. That's how they've done it. That's why they can't just exchange your ship (Like making ships a choice and you can get one you like) without breaking the companion dialogue system at all.
You know even in games like Dragon Age you can start conversations and the camera scene get's dynamic adjusted to the place, the scripts, the scene are not bound to a location. In SWTOR, that's why you need to go to a specific cantina or your ship.
So for just giving you another companion or, just exchanging your ship they would need to wade through ALL _____________________ Dialogue sequences and redo them, yet even may develope a system which is not even bound by location and then redo everything_(!).
They even coded which weapons you do USE in cinematic videos across the whole game (thats why troopers use blaster pistols - a weapon they can't equip - because at some stage when they have done that scene troopers could wear blaster pistols).
This is the why SWTOR is so limited in everything, full of shallow systems, no deepth, no variation.
For just a slight change, they would need to redo everything involved, step by step. At this stage (post release) there is NO WAY they can deconstruct the whole cinematic aspect and develope a new one just to recreate everything and make it work fluid in different locations because that ****** system is in every dialogue with every npc and quest. They would need to basically redo the whole damn content. EVERYTHING.
Giving you another ship isn't so much trouble because they would just need to create all cinematics for that ship again. Giving you 5 ships would mean to increase the work by 5 times. (5 companion quest arks, all planet intros, etc)x 5.
Just moving a npc to a different location means to redo all his dialogue cinematics. If you are asking them just to let the npcs spawn on your homeworld instead of your fleet, you are not asking them to have a slack job and copy & pasting npcs to a different place using the same scripts for shops etc, you are asking them to create dialogues.
This game was coded like a singleplayer game where locations don't change and one ship is enough for the 40 hour campain. The core is so deeply flawed to work with a MMO it's beyond reason. Because of this, the game will always be very slow with little changes, and will never get a deep gameplay, fun elements etc. Without a square enix stunt like with FFXIV, SWTOR is doomed to be what it currently is. It will not change, you either like it or not.
Something should have been done, but it's too late. They need to just build on what they have. But take it from me, any major overhaul will kill it. You don't put a patient under the knife unless they are stable.
And regardless of what anyone says, trying to shoe-horn SWeaToR into a SWG wannabe will be a worse idea than the NGE.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
First of all, the game has not 'failed' in comparison to any other MMO but WOW. It is experiencing a very normal loss in subscriptions which has occurred to virtually every other MMO in the year after release. The population will eventually level out and stabilize at a certain percentage of the original numbers (I won't hazard a guess) and the game will continue to improve as Bioware works on it over the next few years...
That being said, I do think there are things Bioware needs to do quickly if they want to retain a high percentage of their current subscribers:
1. Add a functional global LFG tool
2. Merge servers - Get rid of the empty ones and fill up a smaller number of servers with healthy populations.
3. Free character transfers
4. Add in some sandboxy flair - Things like working pazaak in cantinas and functional swoop racing.
5. Expand the space game - Make it more than just a mini-game that no one plays after a month. Give it some depth and give us something to actually EXPLORE.
6. Fix PVP issues
Additionally, I think they should ALWAYS be working on ways to improve the visual quality of the engine and it's performance.
Fortunately I have heard that the first 3 things on my list above will probably happen over the next few months. When they do, I might return. For now though... even though I have been a long-timer supporter of this game, I am not renewing my subscription.
And there are more. But this is about 75% of the population right there... And SWTOR failed at all of these.
Making friends. The game was all about your solo story. All about YOU the HERO to save the Empire/Republic. There was nothing in the game that really encouraged people to group. And, worse, there was a lot in the game that prohibited/negated grouping. You couldn't group with your own class in a storyline instance. There was no server LFG tool. There were no chat bubbles and you ability to communicate with fellow players was highly restricted. Guilds were nothing more than glorfied chat windows with no meta-game purpose. In short, it a very solo-driven experience with artifical and design limitations further restricting socializing.
So, even though I joined a guild. And I chatted. And they chatted. It was never connected with the game beyond it sucked that there were not GTMs on most of the planets and we dreaded going back to our ships... Or perhaps another Warzone or something bugged-out again and everyone got kicked.
Acheivements. I had a major problem with this. I've playing MMOs since my 15-year-old was 6-months old. They haven't all been good. Some have been downright bad. But none have been this easy. I have never hit level cap this fast in any game, ever. Not even STO which was notoriously fast for leveling. And everything was easy to get, save the RNG that might screw you over for a week dropping tons of great stuff you couldn't use... But having the best armor, coolest light-saber, neatest speeder, wealth beyond imagining, etc. was too easy.
Blowing off Steam. Game really failed at this. Bugs create steam. Being trolled by Ohlen creates steam. Being lied to by Erickson creates steam. Being ignored by Customer Service for a week, or more, when their broken mail system ate my mail created steam. Broken main quests. Broken companion quests. Broken nodes. Broken area quests. Broken crafting system. Broken PvP. Broken emitters everywhere. Broken graphics. Broken robes (Jedi's have big butts I cannot lie...) Things broken from closed beta never fixed. I don't play MMOs to spend four hours frustrated becaues they can't fix relatively simple bugs in DX9 emitters, some of which I reported for MONTHS.
Being immersed in the world. They were cardboard. The sun never set. There were no weather cycles. I can't remember a single dust/sandstorm on Tatooine except the MacGuffin that, once you completed the main story quest you got when you went back to the spaceport. Why not? Put that in, Bioware, and make it dangerous. Make it lock people down. So they get lost. And the water. Come on. The ocean, the rivers, the lakes, were all mid-thigh deep. Give me a break.
Can it be saved? Four of the most important aspects of an MMO are so crippled or lacking that I don't really see how they're ever going to get this game out of it's downward spiral without some major re-writing/re-vamping.
First of all, the game has not 'failed' in comparison to any other MMO but WOW. It is experiencing a very normal loss in subscriptions which has occurred to virtually every other MMO in the year after release. The population will eventually level out and stabilize at a certain percentage of the original numbers (I won't hazard a guess) and the game will continue to improve as Bioware works on it over the next few years...
That being said, I do think there are things Bioware needs to do quickly if they want to retain a high percentage of their current subscribers:
1. Add a functional global LFG tool
2. Merge servers - Get rid of the empty ones and fill up a smaller number of servers with healthy populations.
3. Free character transfers
4. Add in some sandboxy flair - Things like working pazaak in cantinas and functional swoop racing.
5. Expand the space game - Make it more than just a mini-game that no one plays after a month. Give it some depth and give us something to actually EXPLORE.
6. Fix PVP issues
Additionally, I think they should ALWAYS be working on ways to improve the visual quality of the engine and it's performance.
Fortunately I have heard that the first 3 things on my list above will probably happen over the next few months. When they do, I might return. For now though... even though I have been a long-timer supporter of this game, I am not renewing my subscription.
Sorry, but you're talking Internet trash. Most 'big, AAA MMOs' do not have 'sub losses' right out the door. It is a signifcant minority. But it's not even half.
EQ and EQ2 both grew. Lineage 1 & 2 grew. GW1 grew (for nearly 3 years). Aion grew for over a year. LOTRO grew from 2007 to 2011 where it peaked at twice the subs it had in 2008. Star Wars Galaxies grew then maintained the populaiton for two years before NGE wrecked it. Ultima Online grew. Dark Age of Camelot grew, then maintained populatio for three years. Eve Online. Dofus. FFXI. Runescape (released in 2002, peaked in 2008 with 1.1 million and still has almost a million subs.) And there are more.
These were all, or have become, 'big title' MMOs. They all grew for at least nine-months to a year. Some grew for three or four years before sliding. Eve has yet to have any significnat loss.
So, sure, Age of Conan (a distaster) crashed. It was a bad game. Sure Warhammer online crashed. It was a bad game. Sure, STO crashed, it was a bad game. Sure, Rift crashed, it was a gimmick when it came out. Sure FFXIV crashed, it was a bad game.
But the real lesson, on the real-truth, is that failure is not because 'it's what MMOs do,' but what BAD MMOs do. Each and every one of those MMOs was thrown together so some company could hose a 'bunch of dumb gamers' with a crap product. That's why they failed. Not because they were MMOs. But because they were BAD GAMES that used marketing and hype instead of quality game-play to attract a customer base.
Make a good game. People will come to it. When it's good, like WoW, like EQ, like LOTRO, like many others people will stay and talk others into joining the game. When it's bad, people will leave and bad mouth it, driving potential customers away.
You see what's happended with SWTOR. 900K of 2.1 million have quit. It's not because the game is good and the players are immature, flighty, or whatever else insult you can drop on them. The game is just bad.
In the cities and stuff. I often hear people say the swotor cities are stale and not alive. But how imporatnt is it to people?
Yes I know that is a GW2 clip. Its not meant to start a war the game simply has tons of that stuff so it has better examples. Between cow racing and diving board you can do flips off of and NPCs having 5 minute conversations and NPC that have 5-10 minutes of scripted action you would never know about unless you followed. Not talking about Dynamic event content. Just things that have no bearing on advancement just happening and even interacting with your character.
How important are these things to a game like SWTOR? Is it just fluff or is it somehow essenital?
Comments
What needs to be done is they need to redo the entire game from the ground up, so that its not just a starwars skin draped over world of warcraft like it currently is. It just makes me wonder with the budget bioware had for swtor how the hell did they arrive at the current piece of shit the game actually is? I mean didn't they do any market research that would probally show people are getting sick of themeparks and being tied down to a set rail-like path?
Sadly this applies for Tera, GW2, and TSW as well, all are basically wow-like/wow-wannabe's with very little innovation, major innovation winner is prob gw2 though. Me? Only mmo that looks decent in the coming year or so is phantasy star online 2, because if you watch some video's you'll relize fast its not just another themepark wow-clone like pretty much every mmo released today ends up.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
I don't want to be a troll....
But KOTOR was released in 2003. Jade Empire was released in 2005. So wouldn't it be appropriate to state that Jade Empire had KOTOR gameplay instead?
Seriously though, I don't think they can do much at all to stop players leaving. With gw2,Tera and tsw releasing they will take a hit.
Apparently you do...
The system was in development for an unannounced game when they got the Star Wars deal. After Jade Empire came out most in the industry agreed that was the unannounced title.
Then you were certainly in the minority. However your post does not address what I posted about 1,000,000 boxes and 250,000 subs being a massive vote against the Pre-CU.
The great economy? You mean the one where new players couldn't afford weapons and armor because they were priced at thousands of credits for grind garbage? They couldn't even consider the 10 million credit top of the line weapons and armor. The kind that were imperative to be competitive in what you call 'relatively functional pvp'.
Want to break into that awesome sandbox crafting and harvesting? Sorry, the harvesters weren't even for sale for credits. You had to be in one of the special guilds or friends with an established architect to even get your hands on the big harvesters.
Community? You mean the forced community of sitting down to a glorified chat room for doctor buffs? Yea, you seem to be remembering with a biased haze. The way I remember it is a bored afk doctor with a circle of afk adventures around him. The only interaction was the 10,000 credits handed over when you sat down and then the 10 minutes plus of afk just to get buffs.
How about those cantinas? No chat bubbles, no interaction, just more credit drops, afk players and bored entertainers whining on the forums about making the adventurers stay at their keyboards and talk to them. (If you know the name Kwee from Ten Ton Hammer, then you know I speak the truth) So much for 'one of the best communities'.
PvP? It was popular for some of the 250k subs. Unlock Jedi making everyone cry, CH and their rancors wiping entire guilds, and that lovely poison exploit you so proudly avoided. Who else did? Because I didn't see them, and the forums sure never quieted down about it.
So yea, let's review...
Imbalanced Professions/PvP - Check! (of course I did mention this earlier)
Boring buff system hazily remembered as 'community' - Check!
Broken economy within three months of release? - Check!
You know your fond memories, I know the reality.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I played the Pre-CU about a year after the release untill the NGE hit, the best time in the game. It was a massive sprawling economic sucess, thousands of player made tents with vendors hanging all there belongings for people to see. There were hundreads of player run cities all designed unique to there taste, every time you logged on it was a new expierence because the players could truly build and form the world into something of there own. It was, in the simplest sence, the definition of what made sandboxes.
Theres a lot of great things to tell about the game, the evolution of mmorpgs cant help but take notice to SWG and what the game did for the genre. Like most things in life, failure dosn't mean it wasnt sucesfull in the long run. As such with SWG, even though for being way ahead of its time in terms of inovation, getting everything to run took a long time, and I got lucky cause I got to play the best time of the game, a year after all the bugs had been worked out.
Looking back on it now though, the game had already been damanged beyond repair even in the times between pre-cu and the nge. People had different ideas of what they wanted the game to be, and that I think played a big role in the games downfall. I think the code was genious, the game it self was a master piece, the way it flowed and the way the community fed off of each other given the time frame in mmos, it was very well planned and executed.
I just wanted to say, I always keep SWG on my HD cause its a great game and play it regularly.
I'm glad that someone has the omnipotent ability to have captured the zeitgeist of pre-cu SWG. Nobody liked Bio-engineer, or chef. Nobody made a droid engineer. They wanted to be stuffed into smaller boxes and made to go kill mobs because no one wants to be Lars Skywalker. Yeah, I remember strolling though Coronet learning skills from other players and being admonished about staying away from that boring old skill system.
[mod edit]
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
This is my opinion...developers should take their AAA money and make a AAA sandbox with more punishing mechanics than current themeparks.
Yeah, but it is hard work. You need to put a lot more focus on multiplayer and massive content.
The game need to feel more like a MMORPG if they want monthly subs. It is a fine single player game or game you play with a few close friends, but it needs to be a fine MMORPG as well.
PvP also need a lot of love.
It was not an economic success whether you meant it in-game or out. The economy was a disaster within a few months of release. Try actually reading what you quote if you want examples.
The devs used the only currency reference they had a available to form the intended economy. 10,000 credits was meant to be a life's savings for the average person. (Based on Luke exclaiming, "10 thousand? We can almost buy our own ship for that!") The mission terminals were geared in that light. Within a couple of months 10K was chump change only good for getting a few hours of buffs. The mission terminal was exploited to get tens of thousands of credits per DAY.
Player shops and cities were a decent idea, but just like in UO. It turned most of the game into urban blight. Instead of tatooine being a massive desert it was a huge city with sand everywhere. How could Luke have ever gone out into a wasteland if he kept seeing a shop or city over every hill?
Sorry but if that defines 'sandbox' them lineage is a sand box because you can set up a player shop and sell your items. You can set it up anywhere the game allows.
Well I certainly agree that MMO's after SWG certainly were forced to take notice. I'm not so sure it was as positive and you believe. But, I will have to disagree about failure being a success in the long run. Failure is failure, if you think the devs are happy about SWG failing and wouldn't prefer to see it with millions of subscribers and more than a decade of longevity then you might be over-estimating their philanthropic natures. As far as SWG innovation, most of the influences came from UO, which is understandable as much of the UO dev team simply strolled out of the Origin office up US 183 exited onto Jollyville Rd. and into the doors of SoE Austin.
Damaged between Pre-CU and NGE? It was damaged goods right out of the box. Even Raph Koster has said in post-mortems on SWG that they had to ship it early, and that it had tons of unfinished systems, code, and design. Heh, Well I'm am glad you like the code, but that's one area I can tell you was pretty hairy even at launch, and it only got more 'organic' (I'm being kind) and cryptic as time went on. By the end, whole systems were left alone or scrapped because the code was black box to anyone still on the team. A masterpiece where the community fed off of each other? Maybe like lions and hyenas, but 'masterpiece' is definitely heavy handed, and well-planned and executed? Haha... no... just no. I won't go into it, but yea, Just no.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I don't think they need to do much to the game. I think abilitys in game need a lot of work. There just way to many abilitys to micro mange in combat. I think adding macro would be a good start. Also I think PVP space battles would be another element they should think about adding in. I mean come on space combat is half the fun of Star Wars. I mean killing your fellow gamers in space would keep players in game.
I do think this game will go free to play at some point. I think that as fun as the game is it doesn't quite offer the content that keeps large groups of players for years. That is just my opinion any way.
No thanks on the NGE, SOE screwed the pooch on that one.
GW2 I can see for a while till their hype dies down as well, TERA doesn't look like a serious threat since it seems it's made for a niche crowd that loves Asian Style graphics in their game with a different combat system..
I will be trying TSW since it targeted for a more older audience and thank god there is no Orcs, Elves and Dwarves in this game. Despite it being funcom, I usually go agaist the grain anyways when it comes to mmo's.
I still think SWToR can pull it off, you don't need 10 million subs to be successful and it's still way too soon to Doom and Gloom the game. Haters are just going to hate.
I wise man once said "When you come to the end of the book, close book"
But will enough play it to cover the development costs. Right now the feeling of the industry money is no.
I would like to see a game with a fixed version of the CU SWG combat and skills system. I would like to see it with far more themeparks. The housing and city system was fun but I have to admit that I agree with what others have said and it turned places like Tat into planet cities and it was no longer the open desert of the movies and stories.
If it doesn't change it will die.
So nonsense NGE references aside, if they don't do something different this game will go into the shitter for sure.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
This is a lot how I feel. In my opinion, ToR is very much like KotOR and in that sense it is a pretty good game. However, the MMO aspects are really under-developed.
They absolutely have to put more development in the community tools aspects of the game: guilds, groups, the who function, etc. They put in such an overly stream-lined UI for that aspect that it lacks function. Gone are the days were MMO companies can get away with that: those tools should have been in the game from scratch.
For example, what gives with releasing guild banks and yet only one person (the GM) can read the log of what goes in and what goes out? In every other game that has guild banks, it can be set who sees what and I think that is a very valuable tool, especially if your GM goes on holiday or has a busy real life. Or how about the fact that there is no lfguild interface either? Sure, older games shipped without, but even a lot of those have been adding lfguild tools since (DAoC and WoW for example).
They need to flesh out the world aspect of the game too. Adding things like day/night cycles could help with immersion. Removing sociability as it is now in order to acquire fluff items would help. Those are just two examples, there is so much they could do to improve this and would take up an entire thread as of in itself. People burn out when there isn't that much immersion, so this is not as unimportant a thing as it might seem offhand.
I feel that outside of the sociability score thing there is very little to get people to hang out with one another in this game and that is a real pity. It is not bad if you are looking at ToR as a single player experience, but we are paying 15 USD/month for that single player experience. This is what is starting to burn me up. I do actually like ToR overall, it has a lot of positive aspects but the lack of MMO is really what frustrates me and is probably going to be the main factor that gets me to unsub.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
WoW genes are too deep to fix SWTOR.
They must:
go back in time to their original ideas
reject archainc and not-too-good-working EQ/WoW models
adapt models that actually encourage people playing together
adapt models that keep people playing for longer instead "classic" raid once a week and have your head explode from dailies to grind for gear, reduce importance of gear considerably and make gear pretty much cosmetic thingy
adapt models that enlarge game world as you progress instead shrink it
give players more effect over end-game worlds (make endgame sandbox-type)
make short-mid-long term goals for players on every "group number" level (solo-group-raid)
make short-mid-long term goals for guilds on every "group number" level
make short-mid-long term goals for factions on every "group-numbr" level
....
...
...
...
But yah, that has been said on their forums for years. Only thing that was heard from them is "we are WoW-clone".
To SLOW down bleeding.
admit PvP is just mini game for PvEers where they collect different set of gear (like LOTRO/WOW)
fix performance
release more intriguing class stories and make em focus instead of generic quest hubs
release gazillion of mini-games
fix performance
fix OBVIOUS and non obvious bugs
fix class balance
release ton of content
in other words jeebus patch.
Honeslty this guy has 10x more of a handle on the SW Universe and what makes the game FUN than both Dallas Dickenson and James "10 people all beating on the same mob just isnt very heroic" Ohlen and the incompetent PvP lead Gabe Antangelo(or whatever his name is).
Step #1 Fire those 3 guys and hire this guy. Step #2 put someone at the top that wants to make a Star Wars game and NOT World of Warcraft in space. It's like they took the most hardcore WoW fanboy's to create this game and tried to sprinkle Star Wars all over it when it should have been the other way around.
I don't think the "WoW genes" or the broken PVP are the real reasons this game is falling appart, it worked well for games like Lotro or Rift
. The way they designed the game could work, if it wasn't about HOW the implemented it. Yes it would be still a poor copy but it would at least work.
A MMO needs a bit of...diversity and a lot of deepth. Game HUBS should be there for ease of access, but they shouldn't be the only place you can get things done. Just changing the location isn't going to change this flawed system.
SWTORs real issue is about how the implemented everything.
Now we could give SWTOR a lot of deepth by making all companions unlocked for EVERY CLASS / Faction.
Alter the story a bit so they can be either obtained like now, and for other faction / classes at a different place.? Right?
WRONG.
SWTOR was build that EVERY companion scene needs to HAPPEN at this specific location (That includes your ship), at this angle, at this moment in the story.
That's how they've done it. That's why they can't just exchange your ship (Like making ships a choice and you can get one you like) without breaking the companion dialogue system at all.
You know even in games like Dragon Age you can start conversations and the camera scene get's dynamic adjusted to the place, the scripts, the scene are not bound to a location. In SWTOR, that's why you need to go to a specific cantina or your ship.
So for just giving you another companion or, just exchanging your ship they would need to wade through ALL _____________________ Dialogue sequences and redo them, yet even may develope a system which is not even bound by location and then redo everything_(!).
They even coded which weapons you do USE in cinematic videos across the whole game (thats why troopers use blaster pistols - a weapon they can't equip - because at some stage when they have done that scene troopers could wear blaster pistols).
This is the why SWTOR is so limited in everything, full of shallow systems, no deepth, no variation.
For just a slight change, they would need to redo everything involved, step by step.
At this stage (post release) there is NO WAY they can deconstruct the whole cinematic aspect and develope a new one just to recreate everything and make it work fluid in different locations because that ****** system is in every dialogue with every npc and quest. They would need to basically redo the whole damn content. EVERYTHING.
Giving you another ship isn't so much trouble because they would just need to create all cinematics for that ship again. Giving you 5 ships would mean to increase the work by 5 times.
(5 companion quest arks, all planet intros, etc)x 5.
Just moving a npc to a different location means to redo all his dialogue cinematics.
If you are asking them just to let the npcs spawn on your homeworld instead of your fleet, you are not asking them to have a slack job and copy & pasting npcs to a different place using the same scripts for shops etc, you are asking them to create dialogues.
This game was coded like a singleplayer game where locations don't change and one ship is enough for the 40 hour campain. The core is so deeply flawed to work with a MMO it's beyond reason. Because of this, the game will always be very slow with little changes, and will never get a deep gameplay, fun elements etc. Without a square enix stunt like with FFXIV, SWTOR is doomed to be what it currently is. It will not change, you either like it or not.
Something should have been done, but it's too late. They need to just build on what they have. But take it from me, any major overhaul will kill it. You don't put a patient under the knife unless they are stable.
And regardless of what anyone says, trying to shoe-horn SWeaToR into a SWG wannabe will be a worse idea than the NGE.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Stop playing SWTOR cos it is so 80's?
Or overhaul the engine and their engineer cos they kinda sucks at it.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
First of all, the game has not 'failed' in comparison to any other MMO but WOW. It is experiencing a very normal loss in subscriptions which has occurred to virtually every other MMO in the year after release. The population will eventually level out and stabilize at a certain percentage of the original numbers (I won't hazard a guess) and the game will continue to improve as Bioware works on it over the next few years...
That being said, I do think there are things Bioware needs to do quickly if they want to retain a high percentage of their current subscribers:
1. Add a functional global LFG tool
2. Merge servers - Get rid of the empty ones and fill up a smaller number of servers with healthy populations.
3. Free character transfers
4. Add in some sandboxy flair - Things like working pazaak in cantinas and functional swoop racing.
5. Expand the space game - Make it more than just a mini-game that no one plays after a month. Give it some depth and give us something to actually EXPLORE.
6. Fix PVP issues
Additionally, I think they should ALWAYS be working on ways to improve the visual quality of the engine and it's performance.
Fortunately I have heard that the first 3 things on my list above will probably happen over the next few months. When they do, I might return. For now though... even though I have been a long-timer supporter of this game, I am not renewing my subscription.
What is, according to MMO players, the most important aspect of an MMO?
#1 -- Making friends.
#2 -- Acheivements/progress.
#3 -- Blowing off steam.
#4 -- Being immersed in a world.
And there are more. But this is about 75% of the population right there... And SWTOR failed at all of these.
Making friends. The game was all about your solo story. All about YOU the HERO to save the Empire/Republic. There was nothing in the game that really encouraged people to group. And, worse, there was a lot in the game that prohibited/negated grouping. You couldn't group with your own class in a storyline instance. There was no server LFG tool. There were no chat bubbles and you ability to communicate with fellow players was highly restricted. Guilds were nothing more than glorfied chat windows with no meta-game purpose. In short, it a very solo-driven experience with artifical and design limitations further restricting socializing.
So, even though I joined a guild. And I chatted. And they chatted. It was never connected with the game beyond it sucked that there were not GTMs on most of the planets and we dreaded going back to our ships... Or perhaps another Warzone or something bugged-out again and everyone got kicked.
Acheivements. I had a major problem with this. I've playing MMOs since my 15-year-old was 6-months old. They haven't all been good. Some have been downright bad. But none have been this easy. I have never hit level cap this fast in any game, ever. Not even STO which was notoriously fast for leveling. And everything was easy to get, save the RNG that might screw you over for a week dropping tons of great stuff you couldn't use... But having the best armor, coolest light-saber, neatest speeder, wealth beyond imagining, etc. was too easy.
Blowing off Steam. Game really failed at this. Bugs create steam. Being trolled by Ohlen creates steam. Being lied to by Erickson creates steam. Being ignored by Customer Service for a week, or more, when their broken mail system ate my mail created steam. Broken main quests. Broken companion quests. Broken nodes. Broken area quests. Broken crafting system. Broken PvP. Broken emitters everywhere. Broken graphics. Broken robes (Jedi's have big butts I cannot lie...) Things broken from closed beta never fixed. I don't play MMOs to spend four hours frustrated becaues they can't fix relatively simple bugs in DX9 emitters, some of which I reported for MONTHS.
Being immersed in the world. They were cardboard. The sun never set. There were no weather cycles. I can't remember a single dust/sandstorm on Tatooine except the MacGuffin that, once you completed the main story quest you got when you went back to the spaceport. Why not? Put that in, Bioware, and make it dangerous. Make it lock people down. So they get lost. And the water. Come on. The ocean, the rivers, the lakes, were all mid-thigh deep. Give me a break.
Can it be saved? Four of the most important aspects of an MMO are so crippled or lacking that I don't really see how they're ever going to get this game out of it's downward spiral without some major re-writing/re-vamping.
Sorry, but you're talking Internet trash. Most 'big, AAA MMOs' do not have 'sub losses' right out the door. It is a signifcant minority. But it's not even half.
EQ and EQ2 both grew. Lineage 1 & 2 grew. GW1 grew (for nearly 3 years). Aion grew for over a year. LOTRO grew from 2007 to 2011 where it peaked at twice the subs it had in 2008. Star Wars Galaxies grew then maintained the populaiton for two years before NGE wrecked it. Ultima Online grew. Dark Age of Camelot grew, then maintained populatio for three years. Eve Online. Dofus. FFXI. Runescape (released in 2002, peaked in 2008 with 1.1 million and still has almost a million subs.) And there are more.
These were all, or have become, 'big title' MMOs. They all grew for at least nine-months to a year. Some grew for three or four years before sliding. Eve has yet to have any significnat loss.
So, sure, Age of Conan (a distaster) crashed. It was a bad game. Sure Warhammer online crashed. It was a bad game. Sure, STO crashed, it was a bad game. Sure, Rift crashed, it was a gimmick when it came out. Sure FFXIV crashed, it was a bad game.
But the real lesson, on the real-truth, is that failure is not because 'it's what MMOs do,' but what BAD MMOs do. Each and every one of those MMOs was thrown together so some company could hose a 'bunch of dumb gamers' with a crap product. That's why they failed. Not because they were MMOs. But because they were BAD GAMES that used marketing and hype instead of quality game-play to attract a customer base.
Make a good game. People will come to it. When it's good, like WoW, like EQ, like LOTRO, like many others people will stay and talk others into joining the game. When it's bad, people will leave and bad mouth it, driving potential customers away.
You see what's happended with SWTOR. 900K of 2.1 million have quit. It's not because the game is good and the players are immature, flighty, or whatever else insult you can drop on them. The game is just bad.
So how imporant is it to people for SWTOR to have more stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz-Er84ylY8
In the cities and stuff. I often hear people say the swotor cities are stale and not alive. But how imporatnt is it to people?
Yes I know that is a GW2 clip. Its not meant to start a war the game simply has tons of that stuff so it has better examples. Between cow racing and diving board you can do flips off of and NPCs having 5 minute conversations and NPC that have 5-10 minutes of scripted action you would never know about unless you followed. Not talking about Dynamic event content. Just things that have no bearing on advancement just happening and even interacting with your character.
How important are these things to a game like SWTOR? Is it just fluff or is it somehow essenital?