Originally posted by galpharHere's a look into the future on the MMORPG.com forums:1 year from now " WTH did Anet do? they f****ed up this game so bad"2 years from now "WTH did Blizzaed do? they f***ed up this game so bad"3 years from now " WTH did (insert dev here) do? They f***ed up this game so bad"Do you see the trend? No matter what game comes out, the forums on this site will continue to be filled with haters that think the best years of MMOs were 10 years ago. If you think all these new/current games suck so much, create your own MMO and then let us critisize it.
On a public forum, it is unacceptable to voice an opinion? With a thread title such as this, you must have had some inkling of what you would find in here?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a consumer having a strong opinion on something they disagree with. We spend our money and time on these games and in turn expect a modicum of content in return. For a developer to undermine and ignore a player base/tester and their suggestions..this is pathetic.
Galphar is just pointing out the repetitive nature of these forums. The responses and opinions expressed seem almost independent of the games themselves. Every new game that releases follows the same trends on these forums. You can literally watch it happen. It's worse than being bad, it's boring.
Everyone can express their opinion, but it might be more interesting if they engaged in a discussion instead of a shouting match trying to "win" the thread.
Of course these forums are repetitive. Every new mmorpg game that comes out is a WoW clone. It sucks for the same reasons that the last WoW clone sucked and it gets the same responses. When every game makes you kill 10 rats, and you don't like killing 10 rats, then maybe you will post that every game sucks for being boring or whatever. Developers wanted to make shit loads of money by copying WoW. As predicted, this ended up as massive fail. Now that SWTOR's head is on a pike as a warning to other game companies, products will be more innovative. We already have some more innovative games coming out this year, like GW2 and TSW. I'm not as sure about TSW but at least with GW2 I am pretty certain you won't find the same kind of complaints you got about WoW clones. The game is very different
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I'd suggest that Bioware talk to the folks over at Turbine about AC2 and its sad demise years ago.
Turbine had the bones of a great game and ruined it...simply threw it down a stinkpit...by not understanding or listening to their playerbase.
I liked everything up to and including Moria (especially Moria). The problem was they just stopped developing new content.
moria was great, what came after som was terible I left at that point. I don't even keep up with the game I think they added isengaurd, but I left when they took it free to play and never looked back.
Its sad. Beta's used to be about fine tuning and improving your product wether it be content or coding. Now they its just another marketing ploy. My husband was in the SWTOR early beta (July 2011 round there). He provided alot of feedback on content and possible future foibles. In fact he along with alot of other testers were very active on several hot issues on the official forums
Nothing that was advocated for change was implemented. Obviously by the time beta rolls around, developers already know what they are keeping and are only looking for certain things. A beta now is just a glorified demo.
If they had listened to us peon's from the top of their high horses, they might just have been able to salvage another year or more of solid gaming and subscriber numbers instead of the joke TOR has turned into.
Its sad. Beta's used to be about fine tuning and improving your product wether it be content or coding. Now they its just another marketing ploy. My husband was in the SWTOR early beta (July 2011 round there). He provided alot of feedback on content and possible future foibles. In fact he along with alot of other testers were very active on several hot issues on the official forums
Nothing that was advocated for change was implemented. Obviously by the time beta rolls around, developers already know what they are keeping and are only looking for certain things. A beta now is just a glorified demo.
If they had listened to us peon's from the top of their high horses, they might just have been able to salvage another year or more of solid gaming and subscriber numbers instead of the joke TOR has turned into.
They didn't listen to shit. Hell, there were some great threads on their forums long before beta even began suggetsing everything from warning about server management to how PvP should be (and should not) be incorporated into the game that none of which was heeded by BW. Shame really because if they would have bothered to pay attention to their own forums they could have saved themselves a lot of headaches.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
SWTOR is not dead. To call it dead is just silly. However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.
You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.
The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.
Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.
I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most. If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.
Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.
All the feedback in beta was ignored and thats why the game isin a sad state.
it is frustrating when genuine concerns are ignored, and makes you wonder why even bother with having a Beta, if all its going to be is some kind of early access reward for buying the game. Maybe real innovation will only happen when Devs themselves have a more open mind, and open ears...
SWTOR is not dead. To call it dead is just silly. However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.
You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.
The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.
Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.
I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most. If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.
i would buy that game... but i don't see it happening in my lifetime
All the feedback in beta was ignored and thats why the game isin a sad state.
it is frustrating when genuine concerns are ignored, and makes you wonder why even bother with having a Beta, if all its going to be is some kind of early access reward for buying the game. Maybe real innovation will only happen when Devs themselves have a more open mind, and open ears...
During beta, I really got the sense that my feedback was a tiny voice in an ocean and the currents were really against me. So, I'm not sure if beta feedback was largely ignored, or the majority of the people were simply pushing in a different direction.
I think it's most likely the head honchos at BioWare Austin simply had their design set in stone years ago and weren't really going about creating the game in an agile manner, thus there were situations like 'Players are saying this is no good? Well too bad we've spent so much time making it this way - it's too late to change now.'
I understand. They had deadlines, budgets, all being juggled by some of the most notable names in the business. I still wish the game were simply a different kind of beast but ah well... it's too late to change now.
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by DeaconX
SWTOR is not dead. To call it dead is just silly. However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.
You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.
The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.
Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.
I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most. If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.
i would buy that game... but i don't see it happening in my lifetime
Indeed
Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.
SWTOR isn't 'dead'. At least not yet, and probably won't be for a long time, however they're rapidly waning and I don't quite understand *why*. I've read peoples opinions on this matter and honestly so many of them make 0 sense and seem rather baseless.
I think part of what's happening here is a combination of luck, bad press, and the general mmo community.
SW:TOR has so many great qualities to it, yet it's picked apart relentlessly by people who've never really PLAYED the game. People have been waiting in such eager anticipation for the "next big release" for this genre, that I honestly believe ANY game that had come out with such a heavy spotlight on it would of been facing this. If GW2 had come out first, it would of been picked apart relentlessly, faced bad press and generally just fallen apart so to speak.
The truth is, SW:TOR is so much better right out the gate than ANY mmo release over the last 5 or 6 years has been. It has leagues more content than other games have had, and in reality it doesn't have many bugs. I've almost come to the conclusion that what a lot of this MMO community wants out of a game is still very simplistic and boring. I think people would still rather have a game that's pretty vapid and based more on numbers, shallow character building, and would rather still be delusional about their competitiveness in PvP, than to have a game that has a very strong emphesis on immerssive properties such as story, choice, and a relatively customized experience based off those things. I'd dare say that it's like many people weren't *ready* for this type of stuff yet.
I know I'll get flamed endlessly, and it's sad that I can genuinely expect that from this community but it will just further confirm my beliefs about the whole thing. I find it really depressing, and disappointing that really it's the people in the MMO community that are arrogant, and not the developers as much as you would like to think. I'm over blaming every little thing on developers instead of the community, when many things that happen with these games are based off of communities and there's only so much you can do to mitigate it. I never was a big Star Wars fan, and I never really kept a close eye on this game until maybe a year and a half before it came out...But when i got it I found myself experiencing what I've wanted so badly in this genre for a long time and now I have it, and people are ruining it for me and because of that I'll probably have to end up playing boring, run of the mill, textbox MMO's for the next 5 or 10 years if I decide to follow the genre at all anymore.
SWTOR isn't 'dead'. At least not yet, and probably won't be for a long time, however they're rapidly waning and I don't quite understand *why*. I've read peoples opinions on this matter and honestly so many of them make 0 sense and seem rather baseless.
I think part of what's happening here is a combination of luck, bad press, and the general mmo community.
SW:TOR has so many great qualities to it, yet it's picked apart relentlessly by people who've never really PLAYED the game. People have been waiting in such eager anticipation for the "next big release" for this genre, that I honestly believe ANY game that had come out with such a heavy spotlight on it would of been facing this. If GW2 had come out first, it would of been picked apart relentlessly, faced bad press and generally just fallen apart so to speak.
The truth is, SW:TOR is so much better right out the gate than ANY mmo release over the last 5 or 6 years has been. It has leagues more content than other games have had, and in reality it doesn't have many bugs. I've almost come to the conclusion that what a lot of this MMO community wants out of a game is still very simplistic and boring. I think people would still rather have a game that's pretty vapid and based more on numbers, shallow character building, and would rather still be delusional about their competitiveness in PvP, than to have a game that has a very strong emphesis on immerssive properties such as story, choice, and a relatively customized experience based off those things. I'd dare say that it's like many people weren't *ready* for this type of stuff yet.
I know I'll get flamed endlessly, and it's sad that I can genuinely expect that from this community but it will just further confirm my beliefs about the whole thing. I find it really depressing, and disappointing that really it's the people in the MMO community that are arrogant, and not the developers as much as you would like to think. I'm over blaming every little thing on developers instead of the community, when many things that happen with these games are based off of communities and there's only so much you can do to mitigate it. I never was a big Star Wars fan, and I never really kept a close eye on this game until maybe a year and a half before it came out...But when i got it I found myself experiencing what I've wanted so badly in this genre for a long time and now I have it, and people are ruining it for me and because of that I'll probably have to end up playing boring, run of the mill, textbox MMO's for the next 5 or 10 years if I decide to follow the genre at all anymore.
Usually flaming occurs when you generalize or negatively lump a populace into a specific group... Your not the only person who enjoyed SWTOR and so good for you. There are a number of threads and subscibers on these forums who indicated they like the game. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion different then someone else.
I must say I am confused on your statement that the mmo community wants a simplistic, vapid game based on numbers and character building instead of immersion. In my opinion a true feeling of immersion is when a game hits on all the things that feel complex and deep. Character choices, exciting gameworlds with ample opportunity to explore, quests which make me feel like I truly am a player in a community, not another avatar running back and forth collecting egg sacks.
Unfotunately I think you may have opened yourself up for a few heated responses because it seems you may have negatively generalized the posters on this website...
I think part of what's happening here is a combination of luck, bad press, and the general mmo community.
1. Luck has nothing to do with it. It is their design and management decisions that have led them to where they are now.
2. Bad press? Are you kidding? This game was getting so much hype before and shortly after launch it was ridiculous.
3. This old cliche again. Some of you seriously need to put the "blame the community" shtick to rest. This game will fail or succeed on its own merits not because of the community. This is such a cop out. Didn't fly for AoC, Warhammer, etc. and it doesn't fly here either
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Actually, I'm not blaming the community so much as encouraging people to review how they act and not just towards SW:TOR but towards anything that comes out. If you release a product, and it's flooded with a bunch of trolls, then all people are going to see is the trolling and avoid it. It's a simple fact that "negativity" weighs heavier than "positivity", and people will push the negativity out far more than positivity towards almost anything. As for generalizing this specific community, I think it should happen more often because when i read these forums 8 times out of 10 it's a bunch of trolling, and flaming.
In regards to the community with SW:TOR, or any other MMO that comes out...People need to get their expectations in check, and they also need to realize that the "perfect" game will never exist. You can get closer to it more or less, but you'll never have that. What I see in SW:TOR is a massive leap forward for the genre at the most basic level of content which is the progression. But because people are so keen on mindlessly bashing and trolling it, people are going to avoid trying it and in the long run that can impact what developers do with their games in the future. Because these games are such huge investments to do properly, we'll probably see a whole bunch of studio's actually AVOID the things about this game that are BETTER than other games, in order to avoid this situation all together. Because games that have text-box go fetch quests tend to not get reviewed so harshly, and they're far cheaper to make from a business perspective it's going to win out again. And this is why I believe people actually want that, because they are far more supportive of that sort of thing. Personally, I can't handle MMO's that have that old style any more. I tried TERA, even the combat couldn't save it for me. I've played GW2, it's not as well done or immerssive as SW:TOR is when it comes to questing, which is what you spend most of your time doing in ANY mmo. And that criticism was actually seen pretty heavily on their beta forums.
Actually, I'm not blaming the community so much as encouraging people to review how they act and not just towards SW:TOR but towards anything that comes out. If you release a product, and it's flooded with a bunch of trolls, then all people are going to see is the trolling and avoid it. It's a simple fact that "negativity" weighs heavier than "positivity", and people will push the negativity out far more than positivity towards almost anything. As for generalizing this specific community, I think it should happen more often because when i read these forums 8 times out of 10 it's a bunch of trolling, and flaming.
In regards to the community with SW:TOR, or any other MMO that comes out...People need to get their expectations in check, and they also need to realize that the "perfect" game will never exist. You can get closer to it more or less, but you'll never have that. What I see in SW:TOR is a massive leap forward for the genre at the most basic level of content which is the progression. But because people are so keen on mindlessly bashing and trolling it, people are going to avoid trying it and in the long run that can impact what developers do with their games in the future. Because these games are such huge investments to do properly, we'll probably see a whole bunch of studio's actually AVOID the things about this game that are BETTER than other games, in order to avoid this situation all together. Because games that have text-box go fetch quests tend to not get reviewed so harshly, and they're far cheaper to make from a business perspective it's going to win out again. And this is why I believe people actually want that, because they are far more supportive of that sort of thing. Personally, I can't handle MMO's that have that old style any more. I tried TERA, even the combat couldn't save it for me. I've played GW2, it's not as well done or immerssive as SW:TOR is when it comes to questing, which is what you spend most of your time doing in ANY mmo. And that criticism was actually seen pretty heavily on their beta forums.
I really have no clue how you came ot that conclusion.. aside from the dialogue segments the design of SWTOR almost went out of its way ot make the actual planets and enviornments as unimmersive as possible.. In GW2 its almost the polar opposite and while GW2 isn't as heavy on the story the atmosphere of the entire game more than makes up for this... my main beef with SWTOR is it just didn't feel like star wars, combat felt like any other MMO, enviornments did not immerse me into the story they were trying to tell. I honestly can't see how you felt SWTOR had better immersion than you felt in GW2
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Executives can never admit a mistake, that would undermine their authority and damage their career. To you it is a game, to them it is their job and life.
Other than that, if you dance to the players demands you get crap games. If you don't listen to players you better be damned right - Problem is you aren't because you are no longer gamer, now you are an employee and out of touch.
Actually, I'm not blaming the community so much as encouraging people to review how they act and not just towards SW:TOR but towards anything that comes out. If you release a product, and it's flooded with a bunch of trolls, then all people are going to see is the trolling and avoid it. It's a simple fact that "negativity" weighs heavier than "positivity", and people will push the negativity out far more than positivity towards almost anything. As for generalizing this specific community, I think it should happen more often because when i read these forums 8 times out of 10 it's a bunch of trolling, and flaming.
In regards to the community with SW:TOR, or any other MMO that comes out...People need to get their expectations in check, and they also need to realize that the "perfect" game will never exist. You can get closer to it more or less, but you'll never have that. What I see in SW:TOR is a massive leap forward for the genre at the most basic level of content which is the progression. But because people are so keen on mindlessly bashing and trolling it, people are going to avoid trying it and in the long run that can impact what developers do with their games in the future. Because these games are such huge investments to do properly, we'll probably see a whole bunch of studio's actually AVOID the things about this game that are BETTER than other games, in order to avoid this situation all together. Because games that have text-box go fetch quests tend to not get reviewed so harshly, and they're far cheaper to make from a business perspective it's going to win out again. And this is why I believe people actually want that, because they are far more supportive of that sort of thing. Personally, I can't handle MMO's that have that old style any more. I tried TERA, even the combat couldn't save it for me. I've played GW2, it's not as well done or immerssive as SW:TOR is when it comes to questing, which is what you spend most of your time doing in ANY mmo. And that criticism was actually seen pretty heavily on their beta forums.
I really have no clue how you came ot that conclusion.. aside from the dialogue segments the design of SWTOR almost went out of its way ot make the actual planets and enviornments as unimmersive as possible.. In GW2 its almost the polar opposite and while GW2 isn't as heavy on the story the atmosphere of the entire game more than makes up for this... my main beef with SWTOR is it just didn't feel like star wars, combat felt like any other MMO, enviornments did not immerse me into the story they were trying to tell. I honestly can't see how you felt SWTOR had better immersion than you felt in GW2
The dialogue segments in GW2 are a joke, that's how I came to that conclusion. The questing-event system in GW2 is chaotic as hell, that's how I came to that conclusion. The voice overs in GW2 are mediocre at best, that is how I came to that conclusion. The environments in GW2 are smaller and the back drop is far more simplistic, that is also how I came to that conclusion.
If you read the beta forums, many of the complaints about GW2 are these things. During the last beta weekend the forums were FULL of these criticisim's. ArenaNet has actually been VERY receptive to these criticism's, so at least they know where their game is flawed. The fact that their "story' segments displace you from the world environment doesn't help the immersion factor AT ALL, and the fact your story decisions come up separately in a crappy little console-like menu doesn't help the immersion factor either.
It's sad really, how people can respond to, and treat their customers so badly. The only reason they have a job at bioware right now is because of loyal star wars fans hoping for change.
I remember when the game was first announced and shortly thereafter some screenshots were released. There was a humungous constructive thread on character design and armor/item looks. Developers openly said they were stylizing the game to their liking. In beta (closed and open), the armor and stylization came up numerous times, to no avail.
There was also alot of developer interaction good and bad during development. People asked questions and posted ideas. When it came to the wow clone, kill x, courier, sandbox/themepark elements, it was very clear. Bioware, refused to lsiten to their customers on what they wanted. They were going to develop what they thought we wanted.
The development at bioware really opened my eyes , to how they manage their development. Their treatment of the community is terrible.
things that really went wrong with swtor imo:
MMO , i feel like im playing a nexon game. It's less mmo than guild wars.
space combat, probably one of the biggest things. It's star wars, space is 3/4 of what it's about. Bioware "focused on ground" k, but it's star wars, make a different mmo if you want to take the space out of star wars.... I just don't get how they could release a space combat like this. IT's like they got to end development and one of the developers was like "we forgot space". Developer lead says "oh man we gott ado something we release soon". Random developer "i can rip open my star fox cartridge and we can emulate it into our game". Lead developer "k , awesome dude, you saved us".
Solo, lonely feeling empty huge worlds.
QA tester employed by bioware "hey guys, it feels really lonely here, the worlds are large but desolate". Lead developer "don't worry you will have a companion", "and the best thing about taht companion is you will need it to do all of your leveling". They made these huge worlds with no ambience, no interaction, hoth was when i realized they were just making larger zones so i would spend 90% of the quest just getting to the objective and back.
MOBS... the same thing ever zone. Static 4 normals, or 2 normals 1 silver etc... it never changes. No big roaming packs not suprises. By the time i was level 25 , i started to ask myself if they forgot to add some randomness to enemy npcs.
cities and hubs are void of life. THere is nothing going on. Again, it seems like they forgot or lost 25% of their development somewhere.
Crafting, just send companions....no originality whatsoever. It is a ripoff of wow, made easier. Seriously, take a step back and realize, one of the crafting skills was slicing. Send companion to go get money........come on.
The ui , macros , combat delay. All these things should have been addressed prior to release. It shows taht the developer has little to no respect for it's customers.]
pvp - 4 hours ques on servers for random warzones. I would say that open world pvp was a disaster since they shut it down. Snuffing ranked warzones 30 seconds before patch deployment probably cost them at least a chunk of subs.It ws the final nail in the coffin for me to be 100% honest. I did in fact enjoy pvp more than anything in star wars. It was the closest aspect of the game that gave me a star wars feel. After the duplicate random item bag issues, farming comms, etc i felt that ranked would at least give me a goal to shoot towards.
1.2 and test realm. A$$hats , no character copies to test server, put end game content on test server. WTF is the point. Only thing people got to test was the ui change. hey they tested it, it works, everything else that was lvl 50+. They can't test it, durrr wonder why it still sucks.
forum moderation. Never seen anything like it, there is no community interaction from the developers. Its the same copy/paste posts over and over. Threads locked at an astronomical level.
tldr game is crap, selfish devs, great single player, no community, no open world, no space combat, dead servers, horrible community management. wish it would get better, but after latest press release, selfish developer is selfish.
Actually, I'm not blaming the community so much as encouraging people to review how they act and not just towards SW:TOR but towards anything that comes out. If you release a product, and it's flooded with a bunch of trolls, then all people are going to see is the trolling and avoid it. It's a simple fact that "negativity" weighs heavier than "positivity", and people will push the negativity out far more than positivity towards almost anything. As for generalizing this specific community, I think it should happen more often because when i read these forums 8 times out of 10 it's a bunch of trolling, and flaming.
In regards to the community with SW:TOR, or any other MMO that comes out...People need to get their expectations in check, and they also need to realize that the "perfect" game will never exist. You can get closer to it more or less, but you'll never have that. What I see in SW:TOR is a massive leap forward for the genre at the most basic level of content which is the progression. But because people are so keen on mindlessly bashing and trolling it, people are going to avoid trying it and in the long run that can impact what developers do with their games in the future. Because these games are such huge investments to do properly, we'll probably see a whole bunch of studio's actually AVOID the things about this game that are BETTER than other games, in order to avoid this situation all together. Because games that have text-box go fetch quests tend to not get reviewed so harshly, and they're far cheaper to make from a business perspective it's going to win out again. And this is why I believe people actually want that, because they are far more supportive of that sort of thing. Personally, I can't handle MMO's that have that old style any more. I tried TERA, even the combat couldn't save it for me. I've played GW2, it's not as well done or immerssive as SW:TOR is when it comes to questing, which is what you spend most of your time doing in ANY mmo. And that criticism was actually seen pretty heavily on their beta forums.
Every game ever made has its fans and its detractors, pointing this out seems unnecessary.
When you hype up a game like Bioware did with SWTOR, you better have a game to match otherwise people will be upset and will voice thier displeasure.
And on a personal note, SWTOR is the least immersive mmo I think I have ever played. Everyone looks the same, the mobs all stand still waiting to be slaughtered like a bunch of handicapped sheep, no random open world pvp encounters, VO asking my JEDI MASTER to kill random creatures for thier claws, SMH. I could go on but they have already been said a thousand times on this forum. SWTOR is not immersive as an MMO or a singleplayer game, it's stuck in a wierd limbo between the two.
I don't have a problem with those who like the game, but to suggest that it's the players fault for expecting more is laughable. It's the same line Bioware uses when defending thier game. SWTOR could and should of been so much more than a VO single player co-op game where everyone wears the same gear and the planets all feel underdeveloped and static. And SWTOR has the worst PVP in an MMO I've seen outside of LOTRO, but at least Turbine never said anything about having the best PVP team in the industry, Bioware may need to start drug testing its devs.
Every game ever made has its fans and its detractors, pointing this out seems unnecessary.
When you hype up a game like Bioware did with SWTOR, you better have a game to match otherwise people will be upset and will voice thier displeasure.
And on a personal note, SWTOR is the least immersive mmo I think I have ever played. Everyone looks the same, the mobs all stand still waiting to be slaughtered like a bunch of handicapped sheep, no random open world pvp encounters, VO asking my JEDI MASTER to kill random creatures for thier claws, SMH. I could go on but they have already been said a thousand times on this forum. SWTOR is not immersive as an MMO or a singleplayer game, it's stuck in a wierd limbo between the two.
I don't have a problem with those who like the game, but to suggest that it's the players fault for expecting more is laughable. It's the same line Bioware uses when defending thier game. SWTOR could and should of been so much more than a VO single player co-op game where everyone wears the same gear and the planets all feel underdeveloped and static. And SWTOR has the worst PVP in an MMO I've seen outside of LOTRO, but at least Turbine never said anything about having the best PVP team in the industry, Bioware may need to start drug testing its devs.
and for a game with it's main sell point being the story and from a company who has made very immersive games in the past I have no clue how it went so wrong this time.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
SWTOR is not dead. To call it dead is just silly. However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.
You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.
The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.
Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.
I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most. If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.
You're the one I feel the sorriest for ( and not in a mean way lol ).
I remember how excited you were when you were "vindicated" when SW:ToR was finally announced after years of you swearing tooth and nail it was happening regardless of the naysayers ( including myself ). I don't think anyone was looking forward to it as bad as you were. I really wish EAware hadn't fucked it all up, if for nothing else than you could enjoy the game you hoped and championed for.
-Zor
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
SWTOR is not dead. To call it dead is just silly. However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.
You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.
The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.
Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.
I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most. If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.
You're the one I feel the sorriest for ( and not in a mean way lol ).
I remember how excited you were when you were "vindicated" when SW:ToR was finally announced after years of you swearing tooth and nail it was happening regardless of the naysayers ( including myself ). I don't think anyone was looking forward to it as bad as you were. I really wish EAware hadn't fucked it all up, if for nothing else than you could enjoy the game you hoped and championed for.
-Zor
Heh, well thanks I appreciate that I suppose but... it is what it is. In the end, it's just a game. I still feel it could/should have been much more but such is life.
Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.
Comments
I liked everything up to and including Moria (especially Moria). The problem was they just stopped developing new content.
Of course these forums are repetitive. Every new mmorpg game that comes out is a WoW clone. It sucks for the same reasons that the last WoW clone sucked and it gets the same responses. When every game makes you kill 10 rats, and you don't like killing 10 rats, then maybe you will post that every game sucks for being boring or whatever. Developers wanted to make shit loads of money by copying WoW. As predicted, this ended up as massive fail. Now that SWTOR's head is on a pike as a warning to other game companies, products will be more innovative. We already have some more innovative games coming out this year, like GW2 and TSW. I'm not as sure about TSW but at least with GW2 I am pretty certain you won't find the same kind of complaints you got about WoW clones. The game is very different
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
moria was great, what came after som was terible I left at that point. I don't even keep up with the game I think they added isengaurd, but I left when they took it free to play and never looked back.
i hate to say it but i would not have re-subbed when knowing what kinda arrogant persons these BW developers are.....
I was following SWTOR development since late 2008 and their arrogance was visible from the very beggining.
However, at that time they had Mass Effect and DA:O and their arrogance was riding on the wave of success of those games, which was understandable.
Meanwhile, quality of their products started to decline (DA2, SWTOR, ME3) and they still kept their patronizing attitude towards their customers.
Actually, their attitude is the main reason why a lot of people are bashing Bioware and SWTOR. Serves them right IMHO.
Its sad. Beta's used to be about fine tuning and improving your product wether it be content or coding. Now they its just another marketing ploy. My husband was in the SWTOR early beta (July 2011 round there). He provided alot of feedback on content and possible future foibles. In fact he along with alot of other testers were very active on several hot issues on the official forums
Nothing that was advocated for change was implemented. Obviously by the time beta rolls around, developers already know what they are keeping and are only looking for certain things. A beta now is just a glorified demo.
If they had listened to us peon's from the top of their high horses, they might just have been able to salvage another year or more of solid gaming and subscriber numbers instead of the joke TOR has turned into.
They didn't listen to shit. Hell, there were some great threads on their forums long before beta even began suggetsing everything from warning about server management to how PvP should be (and should not) be incorporated into the game that none of which was heeded by BW. Shame really because if they would have bothered to pay attention to their own forums they could have saved themselves a lot of headaches.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
All the feedback in beta was ignored and thats why the game isin a sad state.
SWTOR is not dead. To call it dead is just silly. However, it's clearly not the success they wanted or what it SHOULD/could have been.
You've got the world's biggest IP that's been mishandled twice now.
The first time, the concepts were mostly solid but the tech wasn't quite up to par and the game was simply not really ready yet... then of course the terrible decision by Lucas camp (that's right, it wasn't SOE's decision they just take the heat for the changes they made) which pretty much destroyed the players the game did manage to attract.
Now we have SWTOR which is essentially a single player game with multiplayer MMOG mechanics.
I feel that while both have their merits for sure, neither has really hit what Star Wars fans want the most. If you took the BEST philosophies and designs of both, updated to suit modern and future gameplay, you'd be on the right track for a Star Wars MMORPG.
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
it is frustrating when genuine concerns are ignored, and makes you wonder why even bother with having a Beta, if all its going to be is some kind of early access reward for buying the game. Maybe real innovation will only happen when Devs themselves have a more open mind, and open ears...
i would buy that game... but i don't see it happening in my lifetime
During beta, I really got the sense that my feedback was a tiny voice in an ocean and the currents were really against me. So, I'm not sure if beta feedback was largely ignored, or the majority of the people were simply pushing in a different direction.
I think it's most likely the head honchos at BioWare Austin simply had their design set in stone years ago and weren't really going about creating the game in an agile manner, thus there were situations like 'Players are saying this is no good? Well too bad we've spent so much time making it this way - it's too late to change now.'
I understand. They had deadlines, budgets, all being juggled by some of the most notable names in the business. I still wish the game were simply a different kind of beast but ah well... it's too late to change now.
Indeed
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
SWTOR isn't 'dead'. At least not yet, and probably won't be for a long time, however they're rapidly waning and I don't quite understand *why*. I've read peoples opinions on this matter and honestly so many of them make 0 sense and seem rather baseless.
I think part of what's happening here is a combination of luck, bad press, and the general mmo community.
SW:TOR has so many great qualities to it, yet it's picked apart relentlessly by people who've never really PLAYED the game. People have been waiting in such eager anticipation for the "next big release" for this genre, that I honestly believe ANY game that had come out with such a heavy spotlight on it would of been facing this. If GW2 had come out first, it would of been picked apart relentlessly, faced bad press and generally just fallen apart so to speak.
The truth is, SW:TOR is so much better right out the gate than ANY mmo release over the last 5 or 6 years has been. It has leagues more content than other games have had, and in reality it doesn't have many bugs. I've almost come to the conclusion that what a lot of this MMO community wants out of a game is still very simplistic and boring. I think people would still rather have a game that's pretty vapid and based more on numbers, shallow character building, and would rather still be delusional about their competitiveness in PvP, than to have a game that has a very strong emphesis on immerssive properties such as story, choice, and a relatively customized experience based off those things. I'd dare say that it's like many people weren't *ready* for this type of stuff yet.
I know I'll get flamed endlessly, and it's sad that I can genuinely expect that from this community but it will just further confirm my beliefs about the whole thing. I find it really depressing, and disappointing that really it's the people in the MMO community that are arrogant, and not the developers as much as you would like to think. I'm over blaming every little thing on developers instead of the community, when many things that happen with these games are based off of communities and there's only so much you can do to mitigate it. I never was a big Star Wars fan, and I never really kept a close eye on this game until maybe a year and a half before it came out...But when i got it I found myself experiencing what I've wanted so badly in this genre for a long time and now I have it, and people are ruining it for me and because of that I'll probably have to end up playing boring, run of the mill, textbox MMO's for the next 5 or 10 years if I decide to follow the genre at all anymore.
Usually flaming occurs when you generalize or negatively lump a populace into a specific group... Your not the only person who enjoyed SWTOR and so good for you. There are a number of threads and subscibers on these forums who indicated they like the game. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion different then someone else.
I must say I am confused on your statement that the mmo community wants a simplistic, vapid game based on numbers and character building instead of immersion. In my opinion a true feeling of immersion is when a game hits on all the things that feel complex and deep. Character choices, exciting gameworlds with ample opportunity to explore, quests which make me feel like I truly am a player in a community, not another avatar running back and forth collecting egg sacks.
Unfotunately I think you may have opened yourself up for a few heated responses because it seems you may have negatively generalized the posters on this website...
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Actually, I'm not blaming the community so much as encouraging people to review how they act and not just towards SW:TOR but towards anything that comes out. If you release a product, and it's flooded with a bunch of trolls, then all people are going to see is the trolling and avoid it. It's a simple fact that "negativity" weighs heavier than "positivity", and people will push the negativity out far more than positivity towards almost anything. As for generalizing this specific community, I think it should happen more often because when i read these forums 8 times out of 10 it's a bunch of trolling, and flaming.
In regards to the community with SW:TOR, or any other MMO that comes out...People need to get their expectations in check, and they also need to realize that the "perfect" game will never exist. You can get closer to it more or less, but you'll never have that. What I see in SW:TOR is a massive leap forward for the genre at the most basic level of content which is the progression. But because people are so keen on mindlessly bashing and trolling it, people are going to avoid trying it and in the long run that can impact what developers do with their games in the future. Because these games are such huge investments to do properly, we'll probably see a whole bunch of studio's actually AVOID the things about this game that are BETTER than other games, in order to avoid this situation all together. Because games that have text-box go fetch quests tend to not get reviewed so harshly, and they're far cheaper to make from a business perspective it's going to win out again. And this is why I believe people actually want that, because they are far more supportive of that sort of thing. Personally, I can't handle MMO's that have that old style any more. I tried TERA, even the combat couldn't save it for me. I've played GW2, it's not as well done or immerssive as SW:TOR is when it comes to questing, which is what you spend most of your time doing in ANY mmo. And that criticism was actually seen pretty heavily on their beta forums.
I really have no clue how you came ot that conclusion.. aside from the dialogue segments the design of SWTOR almost went out of its way ot make the actual planets and enviornments as unimmersive as possible.. In GW2 its almost the polar opposite and while GW2 isn't as heavy on the story the atmosphere of the entire game more than makes up for this... my main beef with SWTOR is it just didn't feel like star wars, combat felt like any other MMO, enviornments did not immerse me into the story they were trying to tell. I honestly can't see how you felt SWTOR had better immersion than you felt in GW2
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
hi.i always enjoy watching the coolass videos/trailers for this game.
i played for a few weeks.its a decent game.completely overhyped imo,but not to bad.just needs more time.
coolass videos tho.
Executives can never admit a mistake, that would undermine their authority and damage their career. To you it is a game, to them it is their job and life.
Other than that, if you dance to the players demands you get crap games. If you don't listen to players you better be damned right - Problem is you aren't because you are no longer gamer, now you are an employee and out of touch.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
The dialogue segments in GW2 are a joke, that's how I came to that conclusion. The questing-event system in GW2 is chaotic as hell, that's how I came to that conclusion. The voice overs in GW2 are mediocre at best, that is how I came to that conclusion. The environments in GW2 are smaller and the back drop is far more simplistic, that is also how I came to that conclusion.
If you read the beta forums, many of the complaints about GW2 are these things. During the last beta weekend the forums were FULL of these criticisim's. ArenaNet has actually been VERY receptive to these criticism's, so at least they know where their game is flawed. The fact that their "story' segments displace you from the world environment doesn't help the immersion factor AT ALL, and the fact your story decisions come up separately in a crappy little console-like menu doesn't help the immersion factor either.
Every game ever made has its fans and its detractors, pointing this out seems unnecessary.
When you hype up a game like Bioware did with SWTOR, you better have a game to match otherwise people will be upset and will voice thier displeasure.
And on a personal note, SWTOR is the least immersive mmo I think I have ever played. Everyone looks the same, the mobs all stand still waiting to be slaughtered like a bunch of handicapped sheep, no random open world pvp encounters, VO asking my JEDI MASTER to kill random creatures for thier claws, SMH. I could go on but they have already been said a thousand times on this forum. SWTOR is not immersive as an MMO or a singleplayer game, it's stuck in a wierd limbo between the two.
I don't have a problem with those who like the game, but to suggest that it's the players fault for expecting more is laughable. It's the same line Bioware uses when defending thier game. SWTOR could and should of been so much more than a VO single player co-op game where everyone wears the same gear and the planets all feel underdeveloped and static. And SWTOR has the worst PVP in an MMO I've seen outside of LOTRO, but at least Turbine never said anything about having the best PVP team in the industry, Bioware may need to start drug testing its devs.
and for a game with it's main sell point being the story and from a company who has made very immersive games in the past I have no clue how it went so wrong this time.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
You're the one I feel the sorriest for ( and not in a mean way lol ).
I remember how excited you were when you were "vindicated" when SW:ToR was finally announced after years of you swearing tooth and nail it was happening regardless of the naysayers ( including myself ). I don't think anyone was looking forward to it as bad as you were. I really wish EAware hadn't fucked it all up, if for nothing else than you could enjoy the game you hoped and championed for.
-Zor
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Heh, well thanks I appreciate that I suppose but... it is what it is. In the end, it's just a game. I still feel it could/should have been much more but such is life.
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.