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Bad MMO's or do gamers just not realize they are bored of the genre?
Drokar
Member Posts: 91
If you are only here to say TL/DR, save yourself the trouble and find another thread to troll... read, discuss, or don't, either way have fun and don't take life, or gaming, so seriously....
We all see it when we come to these forums... constant hatred and bashing of recently released MMO's going back to AOC and Warhammer on through SWTOR and more recently GW2 and Tera. The hate gets so profound that it is as if people take it personally that a game doesn't fit all of their personal needs and wants. I see people bash an MMO because it fails to have one feature they want...granted I am not surprised, because I understand the frustration, but developers cannot appease everyone.
I also notice gamers seem to bash games simply because of the lack of innovation. This is what I just do not get. These are games, they are not designed to replace your life. They will all revolve around killing monsters, doing quests, PVP in some form or another - that's it... it will never get any better. The graphics will never replace the real world outside.
Many seem to play these games more than they would a full time job, and that is not what the games were meant to be. Games are a distraction. They are meant to be relaxing, challenging, rewarding, but not a replacement to your life. Many attempt to finish all game content as quick as possible just to get to end game just to complain there is a lack of content... so i do not blame developers anymore.. i blame the diseased, sick young gamers nowadays that can never be satisified by anything that is released, regardless of quality.
It is these same gamers who bash the few games that have survived and flourished throughout the last decade or so, namely EVE online and World of Warcraft. People want a challenge, but then complain EVE is too difficult. People want a WOW replacement, but hate WOW.
Hate to break it to everyone, but YOU are the problem. It is not the developers - you buy games that are unfinished even though you beta tested...then complain its not complete at release... or you buy a game without waiting to read reviews from the early adopters because you fear you will be too late to endgame if the game turns out good.
The reality seems to be that gamers are searching for that perfect game just like a surfer is constantly in search of the perfect wave. But it will never come. The difference is that surfers enjoy the ride regardless, and gamers are just content to sit in their game chair in front of a monitor and forget there is a world that exists outside of the game world, that the sun is shining, your friends, family, job, and if relavant, school work is neglected...
I say this not to create a flame fest, just to encourage discussion about what is truly important in your life. Gaming is a great hobby, one I truly enjoy... i admit i have fallen to exactly what I have described above years ago. When I say "you" i just mean gamers in general, so please do not take offsense. Gaming is indeed a disease, people are becoming addicted to them and it is these gamers that are in fact ruining the genre they claim is being destroyed by developers. I do not disagree that many games are released with bugs and we feel are incomplete, but really that is only in comparison to games that have been out and released for years with many content expansions... yet we expect at least that much content on day one of newer MMO's, with a perfect release, no bugs, just the right amount of servers at launch, and no queue's... is that realistic??
Whatever you like to do, just remember that everything is fine with balance. If you are on your 3rd, 4th, or 12th mmo and still can't stick with one and always compare each mmo to your first, then perhaps it is just that you are bored with MMO's, and not that the latest released MMO is truly evil and out to get you?
anyway, hope you all have a great week.
Drokar
Comments
I play all sorts of games. Mmorpgs included. I play all kinds though.
Know where Ive seen the absolute least amount of innovation in the entire gaming industry as a whole? Mmorpgs. Period.
That has a LOT to do with it. Take my word for it. Meanwhile I really dont like people saying, "Its just YOU! You are the problem! ". I guess there's some strange truth to that. Most people dont like the smell of poop either. Its not the poops fault, its THEM! Which is really kind of true, but you dont blame anyone for not liking poop. You just blame them for not appreciating the same mechanics and no significant change to the mmo genre in years.
Truth is, variety is the spice of life. And for many mmo players, it feels like they've been eating the exact same brand of cerial for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, for.......years. Literally years. Going on decade.
So yea its them. I dont blame them one bit.
As you get older you find that you have to spend more and more time in the real world and that's hard for some people to accept. They keep looking for the perfect game where they can abandon their real life in favor of a fantasy world where they can feel needed or more powerful than they actually are in the real world. Unfortunately it is unrealistic to expect to be able to replace your real life with a game life and it can be upsetting when people are faced with this reality.
thanks for your reply. so curious, how would you innovate? I guess i just do not see what new features an mmo could possibly come out with other than allowing players to jump into their computer and play themselves as their avatar... I would love some innovation and i agree it has been stale, but the truth is there is very little to innovate that will satisfy gamers today. Everyone claims they want more sand, yet they dont buy sand, they buy themeparks, they buy easy, simple games that don't take much thought. The rest just seems to be niche like EVE online. People claim they want FFA pvp, but when darkfall comes out.. where did everyone go? no one seems to back up their claims with their wallet..
thoughts?
ya, i agree, it took me a while to accept this, but now that i am older i have other responsibilities, and gaming comes in behind them all... just can't play hardcore like i used to.. i have a good job, good place to live, friends, family... gaming just seems so much less important than it did, but you brought up good points... those were the reasons i used to play, i moved a lot when i was younger and didn't have many friends, so i played mmo's. now i just feel like i missed out and i have to try and make up for lost time spent in front of my computer.
dont get me wrong, i still game, but only when i have time, and usually for no more than an hour at a time.
Thats a darn good question. How would I innovate? Oh man. Well..... that would be a LONG reply.
You know they are making a Vampire the Masquerade based mmo. I played the first Vampire the Masquerade game when I was a teen or young pre teen. At that time I decided I wanted an mmo based on it. With human players (hunters) and vampires. I dreamed up different servers that you are transfered too by level. As you level up you move to a different server, which is a totally new map and point in history. For Vamps thats easy. For humans it would be your decendant you played, and all skills and abilities would be based down and learned through the generations. Furthermore, there's a day / night cycle. During the day, hunters track down lairs. The vamps control minions while asleep to protect themselves and have direct control such as ghouls, monsters, all that jazz, making them a real in game dungeon master of sorts. Meanwhile at night hunters are the prey, as vamps are incredibly strong comparitvely once out of their little boxes and at night, and at that point the opposite happens, as hunters just desperately try to survive. Time range would go all the way back to BC and range all the way into the future.
This was just me as a kid dreaming up stuff and is not in any way relevant to the Vampire game they are making now. Plus a lot of it is problematic Im sure, and you might not like it. But it is one thing. Kinda different. Thats whats important.
Two games I like for instance is Red Dead Redemption, and I liked Batman Arkham City a lot. Those two are so different I can play one for an entirely different type of fix. People need that stuff. They need to feel like they are playing something new. Something different. The rest of the gaming genre does that well. Or....well.......its more common anyways.
Someone also made a post saying as we get older tastes change and such. But more than that, as we get older we also become more experienced gamers. Meaning we have a tendency to get more picky. We've played lots of games and we've played good ones, bad ones, and everything in between. But we know what excellence is, or at least we do when not looking through rose colored glasses. But we at least think we know what "good" is because we just remember having experienced all kinds of "good" stuff before.
Take a race car driver for instance. You show him a new race car and he might start complaining about the engine, or the tires not being optimal. And you stand there blinking in shock because to you this is the most incredibly awesome darn thing ever in existence. I mean you can drive it and have the blast of your ever loving life and he complains? But he's more picky. Because he's been driving those cars for years and he knows exactly what excellence is.
So I guess what Im trying to say is its the lack of innovation, and then there's some experienced gamers who have been playing long enough to have an idea of what "good" is, at least to them, and being the mmo genre changes so infrequently it ircks them something awful.
As someone who has been gaming my whole life, and I am now 40 years old, I say this discussion is subjective. I'm sure some people are burned out, especially people who have been playing for 8 hours per day for years, but I also believe strongly that the genre has stagnated.
I've been playing FPS games since Quake 1 and prior (Wolfenstien, Doom, Descent ,etc). I've never grown tired of the FPS genre in all these years because it has continued to innovate. Some years it's the same, but the FPS makers know they need to continously move their technology forward in their games, or they will be in the bargain bin soon after shipping.
Recently, I started playing Tribes:Ascend, which is the spiritual successor to Tribes 2, and I am absolutely loving it. They have moved this old game forward, added unlocks, a cash shop and other cool things, and people are eating it up. I would buy more skins from their cash shop if they will hurry up and put some more in there. The game is an absolute joy to play, and requires much more skill than any of the other modern FPS games out there.
What I have seen in my time with MMO games, is that they have slowly been dumbed down. The games have been getting simpler, and people are getting bored. It's fine that WoW brough millions of 'casual' gamers to the market, but I believe it is a mistake to believe that these casual gamers are not going to evolve and want more depth in these games. Unfortunately, the refinements to the theme-park and story aspects of these games has meant removal of the virtual world aspects of them. We also haven't seen much innovation in how the world responds to us and that interaction, and AI in these games is pathetic. Many people who love PvP love it for the same reason I love playing FPS games; because AI doesn't come close to the wit and skill of a real player on the other end of the network.
At any rate, it's up to the individuals to decide how they see the genre, but from my view, MMO's really need to start making some new leaps. People evolve, and even casual players who make up the lion's share of the market are asking for more now. Remember, most of these new people never had the joy of playing the old hardcore games, or a good fun sandbox with a rich community. I don't believe those days are gone, and I feel there will be room for them again, only with the polish and refinement we have come to expect these days.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
some great ideas there, thank you. So by innovation, you mean getting away from the sword and scorcerors? I am all for that to be honest. I am not sure why developers cant think past this, other than other games released over the last 10 years just havent captured enough attention (i mean $ and subscriptions).
I hope World of Darkness brings some of what you are looking for, but i fear that it is just very difficult for developers to find content (things to do ingame) other than the typically questing... remember, most gamers cannot handle difficulty - while a few niche games exist, many have failed because they were too innovative...they went after the niche crowd only to realize even that crowd didnt really know what they wanted.
Darkfall is a great example.. FFA pvp, awesome graphics (in my opinion), first person, you can conquer different zones, and different areas have different mobs, resources, etc which should have been a successful game... it wasnt perfect, but a great starting point. SWTOR... it had innovation but most couldnt see it... fully voiced quests... it was a single player game by design with mmo mechanics... everyone knew this, many beta tested or had opportunity to read other peoples reviews or watch videos, but they bought anyway, then complained... i guess this is my point.. i agree with the poster below yours, it is subjective, but that is why so many devs go after generic, because they fear the subjective that leads to failure... they want as many people to play as possible because that means revenue.
but truly for swords and scorcerors... world of warcraft is litterally king of the hill.. so why did so many developers try to steal players from that game if only to offer the same but with lower quality? I don't know.. i guess it comes down to $, and wanting a piece of the pie.
I always preferred science fiction, so i played EVE for the last 8 years along with SWTOR, and SWG mostly.
I like to divide innovations into mechanical and fundemental. Mechanical innovation is a new great feature that game advertises and says: "Look! Our game has flying pony class! No other game has done that before, this is new and innovative!" Fundemental on the other hand is something much deeper, the way play the game and whole 'feeling' of how the game flows. Fundementally every MMO has been pretty much the same. That feeling when you login to WAR or WoW or AOC is pretty much the same and you play them the same way.
In my opinion it's not really mechanical innovations that people need. They are the ones they NOTICE and THINK they want, but what they need is actually a FUNDEMENTAL innovation. I'll use this opportunity to pimp my blog post about this very subject, it is focused on GW2 which is great example of this kind of fundemental innovation.
My Guild Wars 2 blog. Read it. The bestestest and most TRUTHEST BLOG EVER!!
nope, some games are just bad!
and you shouldn't say never, lest you be proven wrong some day.
@OP: both. Bad MMO's, and MMO gamers that have outgrown them or burnt out on them without realising it.
Right.
Please give a summary of all the innovations and new innovative features that have been introduced into the genre of, say, shooters or adventure games or even platform games the past 10 years or so, if you please.
Then we could follow it up with putting a list of innovations and new features that emerged in the MMORPG genre the past 10-12 years, and compare.
I'm betting that the perceived huge strides in other gaming genres are less impressive than many thought they are, and that the lack of innovations or emerging new features are more present in the MMORPG genre than their gut feeling is suggesting to some people. More often than not it's more a case of that the introduced features just aren't what those people are looking for in MMORPG's, and thus ignored or conveniently forgotten.
Interesting thought. I think that plays a role as well. It's what I was referring to in another way, namely that people conveniently ignore innovations that took place that have no meaning or interest to them, and only will consider innovations for real that hooks into what they're looking for, those to them fundamental innovations that can appease that unrest and feeling of dissatisfaction and frustration they're experiencing.
All other innovations that don't revive or boost their own MMO satisfaction will therefore be dismissed as irrelevant.
GREAT COMMENT!.. thanks. have you tried Tera? NPC AI is actually very decent.. they move out of the way, dodge, run away, come back, and by contrast as a player, you have to do the same... move, concentrate, dodge, parry, block.. you have to be active with pvp and pve, you cannot just sit still... unfortunately, it is still just another sword and scorceror game... boring! but granted with ridiculously better graphics haha.
I definately agree with everyone that has posted so far, we need innovation, i guess i am just as stumped as everyone on how to do it while still appeasing the 'subjectiveness' - easy, but complicated, plenty of content, but without taking 10 years to develop, good graphics, but doesnt require a super computer to play... etc etc.... it is a balancing act for sure. At the end of the day, is the game fun or not?
Just to add, another annoyance of mmo's today is the requirement to pve just to pvp... Warhammer had in my opinion the best battlegrounds of any mmo to date, and great open pvp 'lakes', but horrible pve... dreadful pve... i would love to see a game where pvp can be the focus of gameplay from level 1 to level whatever, or even no levels and just skill based with competitive pvp, similar to FPS, but with a persistant world free market trade and crafting as the sole method for obtaining gear - dependant on resources that are scarce and leading to alliances, and guild wars over those resources and trade routes... that would be awesome...
It's the mmorpgs.
In the past years of AAA mmorpg development "innovation" = reskinning the same old formula with a few novel bits and pieces dangling on and advertising it as something very different.
There's simply too few serious escape attempts from standard themepark aspects in most AAA titles. It's a sad state of affairs. I can has written a blog post on it too.
My brand new bloggity blog.
When all my friends and everyone I speak to says "that game looks crap" or "it's a WoW clone" or where they all buy SWTOR and quit within the first 30 days, I know it isn't me.
oh wait.. just realized i am playing that game right now, EVE Online
(ok without FPS and a lot of the best gear is loot based, but still... nothing beats the sandbox from my perspective.
Sorry, but if this is the level of innovations and significant innovative strides that other people consider other gaming genres have made, then I think I can easily sum up 30-50 innovations that happened in the MMO genre the past 10-12 years.
It's also interesting that people consider this positive and huge distinctive new features for a shooter, while at the same time shrugging away sortlike new features that were introduced in MMO's even before that. This to me tells that a lot of the whole 'MMO genre bad - other genres innovative' is more subjective and gut feeling based than people might think.
great concept! this is very true! we need fundamental type innovation... different thinking.. but that takes a huge gamble on the part of the investors... how do you appease the investors and make them confortable that this new innovative game concept will sell? If you cant sell it, you don't get the $$$.
I will continue to use my EVE online reference, only because i feel it is hte most innovative game out there right now, but I feel it is just so complex it keeps many from trying it out, or continuing past the first few months.. it takes a huge investment of time (years to get enough skill points in some cases just to join a decent corp or fly an effective fleet setup). I would love to see an avatar focused game with similar gameplay and complexity.
Finally a post on this forum that make sense and is not bashing Devs.. I have been a gamer for 30 years, I started with D&D and then move to console and IBM and commodore, and then moved on, I was into ART, and then Cars, I was an Auto mechanic for 17 years, and then got sick, so I decided to go to school for Gamer design to understand more about games, and how to make them, I messed around through the years but nothing really that big until I went to school.
So after going to school, I see both sides to it now before I was like most people upset about this game or that but I played what I enjoyed, and also I was a beta tester Paid one, so after seeing what is all involved I see why the industry is off a bit most people just complain and don't figure out why they just want what they want and thats it like spoiled brat which is annoying.
I will tell you why we do not see new mechanics, and ideas...
1. AAA companys are ran by people who never play games they wanna make money.
2. Publisher, Investors, will only give money to people who they know and what games have made money in the past, AKA WOW and clones. Yes they do, they made billions.
3. Indies have great idea, but who the hell are they and this crazy idea, !! No way will most gamers play this.. So guess what we won't see new games that often
4. Indies lack experince.
5. Indies lack Funds.
6. Indies lack buisness sense. ( This one I have been dealing with, see indies should start small and then make the next MMo, but MMO cost the most, if indies make small scale games they will get funds for the bigger games also investors will trust them more because they have made games, and seen how well they have done.
Gamers today have no patince and how can Devs fix anything if people just complain and not say why or what is wrong, also they can't please everyone.
Gamers who are becoming DEVS, which I find to be important because they are gamers and want they next best game but what I learned is most new devs hate MMO's that is a fact and I ask why when I'm in school and mostly told, because why should I make games for a bunch of selfish people and whiners,
I see there point now and Iphone games are easy to make and easy to make money, even flash games you can make more money and faster, so those are reasons as well.. So people will be like Iphone!! Well guess what these are all facts, and now I see it, will I play Iphone games no not really, I l ike MMo, but I'm actually doing good for myself making smaller scale games.
SO my advise to gamers is to relax and stop with the crying and bashing, because if they don't new devs won't bother to come up with the next new MMO.... They can continue to deal with what they have, not saying all the games are bad because there not but I do want some new mechanics and trust me they are out there but people aren't using them....
Great post OP.
Many frequentors of this forum don't realize it but their characteristics are quite similar to that of a crack addict. Most of these people are searching for their first 'high' which they simply will never be able to capture again.
I actually intend to conduct my masters thesis on this so hopefully I'll have some more coherent information to post in the next year or so
PS - I hate how often the word 'innovation' gets tossed around in this industry. Innovation is e-mail instead of traditional mail. Innovation is the miracle of flight and the introduction of digital over analog. Demanding innovation in video games is not only misplaced but borderline offensive.
While people are trying to innovate to stop world hunger, provide clean drinking water to the world, eliminate global warming - Frequentors of this forum want a new video game....
Problem is when a casual like me these days gets to max level in a month and there's nothing else to do than hop on a gear treadmill. Techonology has developed in huge leaps but MMO worls got smaller and simplier at the same time. No more journey, no open world activities, no meaningful crafting. Most of the content is solo (as a casual I don't mind it actually heh) but even that solo content is oversimplified - gather 10+ "kill 10 X" quests, move to high lighted area, kill some rats and move back to gather your rewards. Most people don't die even once while leveling solo these days.
At least I would expect some whoah! discoveries now and then like a rare mob spawn, completely random event, you name it. And I like crafting, a lot. Last game where crafting had some meaning was a small indie MMO Fallen Earth. Crafting should take time and mighty effort give rewards accordingly, not used only for twinking alts.
I'm not a sand box player but I prefer more freedom over complete hand holding we get these days. Maybe it's the MEMEME generation that whines until they get their epeen and intant gratification despite their attention span of a coffee mug, but I think that MMO community has turned into shite. Look at this site - every day you see people just trolling MMOs they don't play themselves only for the sake of forum PvP. No more MMO community for you, just endless wars between zealous fanbois of different games.
i think many of the older gamers understand this concept, yet don't have the patience to see a game past a month or two and at that point if all the bugs are not worked out they leave and move on to the next release. Gamers are at fault for being impatient, but developers are at fault for pushing out unfinished games with nothing new added in terms of innovation... lets face it.. if you want to play sword and scorceror... WoW is THE game. 10+ million say so and they are paying to play. All the other games have niche followings, even the successful Rift and TRION Worlds. The next best subscription game is EVE online which is sandbox... so which do you think investors want a piece of.. 300k or 10 million subs? so perhaps we are all at fault.
Innovation is just a term that needs to be put in context. Incase of MMO's I see it as something that evolves the existing concepts. But when word innovation is used all over just about any industry I don't see why it should not be used in videogames aswell? Innovations can be small too, not every innvoation has to cure AIDS to be recognized as an innovation
My Guild Wars 2 blog. Read it. The bestestest and most TRUTHEST BLOG EVER!!
iTS NOT the developers fault, iTs the publisher fault, I worked for companys, and I SAID I'm NOT DONE. Guess what dead line is the dead line they want money and force you to push it out, you have no choice...
Yes but investors will continue to do so and indies need to get there head out of there ass and make smaller scale games to show what they have made.
Example, if you din't know me, and I said I was making a game, and I said I need 3 millions dollars and I never made a thing would you give it to me and my idea was never done.
The answer is NO way!!
So think about that for awhile and you will see why we see the same crap... Its gonna take someone /or a company to have a concept and do it on there own or make a bunch of games to prove to an investor or have an investor with balls.
FYI it has nothing to do with older gamers, just gamers period and more so the younger crowds with there whining/complaining. I see it every day with the younger new devs at school, sometimes they talk out of there ass.
agreed, but also agreed that adding flying pony's doesnt constitute innovation. Innovation needs to be, well innovative, game changing if you excuse the pun. But at the same time, gamers still take it too seriously. Bottom line, if it is fun, play it, and if it isn't don't.. but spending hours on the forums flaming a game that is missing a few features is what is truly destroying this genre. it is a lack of patience as well.
anyway, i am out for the night... hope the conversation stays alive and civil. thanks everyone for the great comments!
I play computer and video games since the 70th, when they started to appear, it was allways a hobby i liked.
Depending on my work i play as few hours as maybe 6 a week, more when i have time.
I have a couple of friends that share my hobby and i have a good time with them.
I won some titles (championships) as well in computer sport games as in real motorsport.
So its short sighted to say MMOs be a substitute for missing success in real life and make you a lonely person as you make friends in all shared experiences you undergo.
Also, opposite to TV-Shows and Movies, Computer Gaming is an activity.
Yet many of the old genres habe been streamlined and MMOs fundamentaly have been experienced a devolution of gameplay since WoW arrived and had its tremendous success.
Virtual Worlds have devolved into scenic stages with inferior, tight controlled gameplay.
There is nearly no diversity in the games.
The only freedom still left is the freedom to destroy!
What once was a Steak with Potatoes and Veggies and Sauce and the freedom to eat as you want is now concentrated into Proteine Pills on a tablet with numbers for each pill so the right order is maintained as wanted by the devs.
Its efficent -> its boring!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
It's not even the publishers, it's the technology and turn-around of MMOs. You can't expect investors to fork out millions and millions of dollars when a game takes 7+ years to create.
You don't even have to know anything about business to assume that this isn't the ideal situation for investors.
I was excited about Arch Age when I heard about it last year. Now? I could care less. I don't even know if I'll be playing video games by the time it graces American internet.