I truly wonder what would happen if a MMO game were ever released that had zero (and I truly mean 0) vertical progression.
Probably won't work; you'd have to first harvest a crop of devs who remembered how to tell a story in an RPG. If you're not pushing the level button like a Skinner box rat, you need to depend on the players to entertain themselves in some other way.
Someone''s going to insist that PvP is a sufficient answer, but I don't think it is personally. You may have to teach players what roleplay is about again...and devs hate that answer, because its too costly.
I think it'd be interesting to see "advancement" and "progression" in an RPG actually refer to context and content in the game rather than numbers on a spreadsheet.
Moving the front lines of a war, gaining/losing territory, long-term progression on an epic journey through the world (LOTR style) etc.
I mean, the idea of stats and levels is a simple way to quantify the "character growth" that is so very important and some would say critical to the story telling tool/design of the "heroes journey" but...
I mean, the idea of stats and levels is a simple way to quantify the "character growth" that is so very important and some would say critical to the story telling tool/design of the "heroes journey" but...
Growth/progression is about power. Using numbers is just an easy way to show it.
Power is really about .. today the goblin kill me easy, tomorrow i can blow him up with my fire ball.
I mean, the idea of stats and levels is a simple way to quantify the "character growth" that is so very important and some would say critical to the story telling tool/design of the "heroes journey" but...
Growth/progression is about power. Using numbers is just an easy way to show it.
Power is really about .. today the goblin kill me easy, tomorrow i can blow him up with my fire ball.
Given we're talking about a computer, numbers are the only way to quantify character growth.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I mean, the idea of stats and levels is a simple way to quantify the "character growth" that is so very important and some would say critical to the story telling tool/design of the "heroes journey" but...
Growth/progression is about power. Using numbers is just an easy way to show it.
Power is really about .. today the goblin kill me easy, tomorrow i can blow him up with my fire ball.
Given we're talking about a computer, numbers are the only way to quantify character growth.
Do you have to quantify it?
Wouldn't it be the same as "gaining power" because you have more skill at playing the game and that is why "yesterday the goblin could kill me but today I defeated him?"
And isn't making a friend to help you kill the goblin also a form of growth/progression and thusly power?
Wouldn't it be the same as "gaining power" because you have more skill at playing the game and that is why "yesterday the goblin could kill me but today I defeated him?"
And isn't making a friend to help you kill the goblin also a form of growth/progression and thusly power?
Yes. Because people like quantification.
People want clear, unmistaken proof that their power has increased. If you friend help you kill the goblin, you really don't know if a) he is just humoring you, and won't help tomorrow (thus, your power is short live), or b) the goblin is weaker today and your friend is of no help. There may be out possibilities.
I miss spending a lot of time in one area, because it took so long to outlevel it. Even at low levels. I have a lot of fond memories of places like Unrest. MMOs these days, zones fly by so quickly, I feel like I have no time to really form much familiarity, or much of an attachment to them.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Wouldn't it be the same as "gaining power" because you have more skill at playing the game and that is why "yesterday the goblin could kill me but today I defeated him?"
And isn't making a friend to help you kill the goblin also a form of growth/progression and thusly power?
Yes. Because people like quantification.
People want clear, unmistaken proof that their power has increased. If you friend help you kill the goblin, you really don't know if a) he is just humoring you, and won't help tomorrow (thus, your power is short live), or b) the goblin is weaker today and your friend is of no help. There may be out possibilities.
Isn't fear, uncertainty, and then the confidence from successive victories the very kind of emotional attachement many have been craving for their MMO experiences?
What's the fun if you know you are going to win every time because you got that broadsword of +1 goblin slaying yesterday?
I mean, the idea of stats and levels is a simple way to quantify the "character growth" that is so very important and some would say critical to the story telling tool/design of the "heroes journey" but...
Growth/progression is about power. Using numbers is just an easy way to show it.
Power is really about .. today the goblin kill me easy, tomorrow i can blow him up with my fire ball.
Given we're talking about a computer, numbers are the only way to quantify character growth.
Do you have to quantify it?
Wouldn't it be the same as "gaining power" because you have more skill at playing the game and that is why "yesterday the goblin could kill me but today I defeated him?"
And isn't making a friend to help you kill the goblin also a form of growth/progression and thusly power?
MMO's should never use personal skill to measure progression. I think a lot of players are on this bandwagon due to GW2 but character progression should be about a lot more than how quickly you can kill something.
what i find 'odd' is that so many find themselves leveling too quickly. i don't. i never have really, except for once perhaps. i incessantly take my time, see the sights. follow the 'useless' side quests, craft, explore, etc.
for me i just always figured i sucked at leveling, but now i realize, its just how i play a game. slowly.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
I truly wonder what would happen if a MMO game were ever released that had zero (and I truly mean 0) vertical progression.
No stats on toons or skill points or levels, no stats on gear...
The character got "better" because the player got better at playing the game, that was all.
They were able to take on more challenging tasks because their either (or both) A) understood the game better and were better at playing it and made more social bonds/friendships to tackle these challenging tasks with others instead of alone.
Interesting that no one has mentioned GW1 yet.
That game has actually only 20 levels, which you will usually hit at the end of the tutorial area (unless you are playing the original campaign, Prophecies, where the leveling was stretched out a bit).
After you hit 20, your stats, ie hp, number of attribute points, are fixed. Also! The gear had a max cap that was pretty easy to reach.
The only thing that changed after lvl20 were your skills on your hotbar, in that you still encountered skill trainers later in the game and had to capture elite skills from boss monsters. Atfter that, it just came down to what skills you put on your 8 slot hotbar and how well you used them.
Got an account just to post in thread and to say: nooooooooooo....
You shouldn't miss slow leveling, never, ever!!! We are throwing a pretty large amount of our lives through the windows with MMOs that people qualify as fast leveling, so I don't even want to imagine what it would be if leveling started to become slower.
Personally I just hate leveling. On WoW when I suddenly have the urge to play one of the high level dungeons with a caster, or try a new style for PvP all I have to do is sink 1 or 3 months of my life to satisfy this urge... GREAT!! Leveling is a wasted concept, a dividing one, I want to play with people, I want to try different style of play and not just get the kiddie version that low-level content is, when I roll an alt, I want to raid with him NOW, I want to do real PvP with him NOW, not in a week, not in a month, NOW.
You can like it or not, but this iis what MMORPG will tend to soon, not limiting the content the player can enjoy because of "levels". If the player want to get to the hardcore stuffs right away, let him, odds are he or she knows what he or she is going, and if not they learn the hard way.
I mean, the idea of stats and levels is a simple way to quantify the "character growth" that is so very important and some would say critical to the story telling tool/design of the "heroes journey" but...
Growth/progression is about power. Using numbers is just an easy way to show it.
Power is really about .. today the goblin kill me easy, tomorrow i can blow him up with my fire ball.
Given we're talking about a computer, numbers are the only way to quantify character growth.
Do you have to quantify it?
Wouldn't it be the same as "gaining power" because you have more skill at playing the game and that is why "yesterday the goblin could kill me but today I defeated him?"
And isn't making a friend to help you kill the goblin also a form of growth/progression and thusly power?
My point was more technical than abstract. To a computer it's all numbers. A computer does not understand terms like "power". Programmers give ideas like that concrete values.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
what i find 'odd' is that so many find themselves leveling too quickly. i don't. i never have really, except for once perhaps. i incessantly take my time, see the sights. follow the 'useless' side quests, craft, explore, etc.
for me i just always figured i sucked at leveling, but now i realize, its just how i play a game. slowly.
For me, it isnt just about my own personal levelling pace. It also has to do with the players around me, and getting to know people I group with. There was a time when I formed friendships with people, because we grouped together so often, because we were in the same areas so often. That just doesn't happen anymore, because of how quickly people speed through content.
I could slow down and just hang out twiddling my thumbs, but that won't bring back the sense of community that slower levelling can help support.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Got an account just to post in thread and to say: nooooooooooo....
You shouldn't miss slow leveling, never, ever!!! We are throwing a pretty large amount of our lives through the windows with MMOs that people qualify as fast leveling, so I don't even want to imagine what it would be if leveling started to become slower.
Personally I just hate leveling. On WoW when I suddenly have the urge to play one of the high level dungeons with a caster, or try a new style for PvP all I have to do is sink 1 or 3 months of my life to satisfy this urge... GREAT!! Leveling is a wasted concept, a dividing one, I want to play with people, I want to try different style of play and not just get the kiddie version that low-level content is, when I roll an alt, I want to raid with him NOW, I want to do real PvP with him NOW, not in a week, not in a month, NOW.
You can like it or not, but this iis what MMORPG will tend to soon, not limiting the content the player can enjoy because of "levels". If the player want to get to the hardcore stuffs right away, let him, odds are he or she knows what he or she is going, and if not they learn the hard way.
Slow leveling is going the way of the dodo.
Bite your tongue.
Nah, seriously though....I only half agree with you, because see....I think the people that LIKE the leveling process need to be able to play the way THEY want to ALSO. Fair for all. I think games offering more and more and more CHOICES....are the way of the future.
It might sound odd, but I miss games taking a long time to level. Don t get me wrong, I enjoy alot of games, and play some games now, that don t take long to level, but I truly miss the old days of games like DAOC, and FFXI. It took a long time to hit max, and well each level felt like an accomplishment.
Maybe one day a company can make a quality game that takes a long time to hit max. I just felt the communities were so much better in those games.
I know alot of people will disagree with me, but it s an observation that myself and alot of MMO players I know, agree on.
I dont necessarily miss slow leveling but I do miss extended levels. Instead of 50 - 80 levels I would love to play a game with 200+ levels like an Asheron's Call. Get the best of both worlds, timely progression and extended level caps.
Bingo!!! That too, AC was a great game with how you could literally be anything. It hid any grind well, too with random loot etc. The sense of danger was awesome too. Loved having to retreive your stuff, was damn hars sometimes
I never did hit max level in Asheron's Call, though I had countless years of fun playing. Daoc It took me a while but I did get to 50. Then Darkness falls came and I had multiple 50's because on a MIdgard DF raid you could hit 50 in a day or so of the loop with help from a friend tagging everything. I loved both of those games, DAOC not so much after the Trials of Atlantis and New Frontiers, but when it was new and a few years out, it was fun as heck.
MMORPGs should be part of adventuring and not the chaotic rush to the end game. That is my view and I didn't read through the entire discussion so I'm sure there are many more who beleive that like me. It use to take months to get to level 60 in Vanilla WoW and I miss that! I just starting Fallen Earth again. It is somewhat old school graphics but the game is very unforgiving in that there is no hand holding! I am enjoying the struggle to level!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
MMORPGs should be part of adventuring and not the chaotic rush to the end game. That is my view and I didn't read through the entire discussion so I'm sure there are many more who beleive that like me. It use to take months to get to level 60 in Vanilla WoW and I miss that! I just starting Fallen Earth again. It is somewhat old school graphics but the game is very unforgiving in that there is no hand holding! I am enjoying the struggle to level!
I too like the slower strugle, i like the time you spent to get to know other players, and they knew who you were, you EARNED your place in the game, that ment something.
now days i doesnt matter with these MMO's
i kind of laugh and cry when i see people top out in a couple of days from launch, Devs and producers spend thousands of man hours to make the game, millions of dollars spent, some lifless yahoo with 60 bucks logs on and finnishes most of the game in 2 weeks,
I think MMOs could progress a lot slower overall, to the enjoyment of most, but the fun things usually at the end of "max level themeparks" need to start at level 10 instead of 50, 60 or 80. It's not the players fault it's how the games are designed. I'd like to see about a 500% decrease in level speed but put things that matter from 1 to max.
Edit: The "sweet spot" IMO is when people don't really care how long it's taking them to level.
i personally think that slow leveling is just not fun anymore, but even so, if they brought it back the thing that needs to be done would be to add meaning to that leveling.
leveling to level, whether slow or fast is pointless if barely anything changes, if you slow the leveling down there better be skills and abilities to make up for the slog.
i suppose for me that was really the difference between everquest and say lineage 2, both had slow leveling but everquest had more stuff at the end of that leveling to make up for the slowness.
of course now i can't stand slow leveling really anymore, well as slow as everquest and lineage 2 anyway. i also don't really enjoy tor's leveling. there is no sense of accomplishment with tor, since you aren't doing anything but listening to people talk for a while.
i guess really i just want what i'm doing to mean something to my enjoyment of the game, it is part of the reason i couldn't stand doing AA, it never felt as concrete as leveling did, leveling was noticable.
I dont know how it compares to other games, but if you want to have remotely decent gear in Vanguard, you need to do dungeons, and those take quite some time.
There is a bit of rose coloured glasses involved in the nostalgia when it comes to MMOs, specially earlier ones, but even despite that, I agree, I miss the journey, and I know you can nowadays solo the whole game to max level and take your time, but that is not how it was before, hell even WoW in 2004 had an awesome leveling journey, there were people at all levels and in different areas you would always find something interesting somehwere, some pvp. People cared about things at all levels not just high level.
Then everyone got to 60 and it sort of went downhill from there till today, its not really specifically about slow leveling, its about allowing people to enjoy everything at their current level instead of being some sort of throw away content, you dont really care about. I remember when we had to farm low level instances to get lvl 20 or so Nature Resistance trinkets, that to me is fun.
I mean, the idea of stats and levels is a simple way to quantify the "character growth" that is so very important and some would say critical to the story telling tool/design of the "heroes journey" but...
Growth/progression is about power. Using numbers is just an easy way to show it.
Power is really about .. today the goblin kill me easy, tomorrow i can blow him up with my fire ball.
Given we're talking about a computer, numbers are the only way to quantify character growth.
Do you have to quantify it?
Wouldn't it be the same as "gaining power" because you have more skill at playing the game and that is why "yesterday the goblin could kill me but today I defeated him?"
And isn't making a friend to help you kill the goblin also a form of growth/progression and thusly power?
My point was more technical than abstract. To a computer it's all numbers. A computer does not understand terms like "power". Programmers give ideas like that concrete values.
Understandable. But wouldn't hiding the "behind the scenes" numbers give the same concrete effect with an increase in the abstract "feel" of the game?
I'm just arguing for the sake of discussion, I am a numbers person - I like stats and I like complex stat systems that require critical thinking, planning, etc.
Got an account just to post in thread and to say: nooooooooooo....
You shouldn't miss slow leveling, never, ever!!! We are throwing a pretty large amount of our lives through the windows with MMOs that people qualify as fast leveling, so I don't even want to imagine what it would be if leveling started to become slower.
Personally I just hate leveling. On WoW when I suddenly have the urge to play one of the high level dungeons with a caster, or try a new style for PvP all I have to do is sink 1 or 3 months of my life to satisfy this urge... GREAT!! Leveling is a wasted concept, a dividing one, I want to play with people, I want to try different style of play and not just get the kiddie version that low-level content is, when I roll an alt, I want to raid with him NOW, I want to do real PvP with him NOW, not in a week, not in a month, NOW.
You can like it or not, but this iis what MMORPG will tend to soon, not limiting the content the player can enjoy because of "levels". If the player want to get to the hardcore stuffs right away, let him, odds are he or she knows what he or she is going, and if not they learn the hard way.
Slow leveling is going the way of the dodo.
^ This is the opposite mindset of the OP. It becomes clear in your post that you think all the good stuff is at the end, so why slow it down even more? Simple: Stop making "end-game" a goal at all.
Somewhere along the way it changed from it being simply about the journey to it being about hitting a finish line. Aion, for example, didn't do extremely well because of this mindset. People kept trying to rush to the end-game where all the fun is, only to be stopped time and time again by slow exp gain. A lot of the people that jumped ship did it because they didn't think they could have as much fun at 18 as they would at cap. If all you're thinking about is end-game when you're used to the current generation of MMOs then Aion would have made you want to pull your hair out and bitch-slap your grandmother.
I think older gamers are the opposite. All we really knew was the journey. Once you hit cap, you were basically done. Reroll or roll out. What I enjoyed about that however was a few things.
It promoted long-term friendships: You were toughing it out side-by-side which made you really appreciate those around you doing the same.
Risk required backup: This required friends willing to give up precious exp (Or something else of value) if things went south when trying to explore a new area none of you had been to yet.
It is always faster with a group: This has been one of those things I miss the most. Grouping wasn't an option in older games, it was a requirement. In an MMO, if you can do everything by yourself, why bother doing it with others? This current generation of games has been the biggest culprits of this.
There are many many other things that could be listed but those are just a few that stick out to me. I think the only way a game can severely slow down leveling at this point is to somehow make it VERY clear from the start that there is no end-game, it's all about the journey. If you try pulling that now with what gamers are used to, it's going to be ugly at best. I am sure the biggest argument will be "I don't have time for that shit! Get a life!".
My point: If you don't have the time to waste, why are you playing games at all? Since when did gaming become serious business that you HAVE to fit in between changing diapers and shoveling the drive? All of it is a time-sink and the best ones take years.
As always, it's just my opinion, don't take it to heart. And yes, I am rockin' my rose colored glasses.
Comments
I think it'd be interesting to see "advancement" and "progression" in an RPG actually refer to context and content in the game rather than numbers on a spreadsheet.
Moving the front lines of a war, gaining/losing territory, long-term progression on an epic journey through the world (LOTR style) etc.
I mean, the idea of stats and levels is a simple way to quantify the "character growth" that is so very important and some would say critical to the story telling tool/design of the "heroes journey" but...
Growth/progression is about power. Using numbers is just an easy way to show it.
Power is really about .. today the goblin kill me easy, tomorrow i can blow him up with my fire ball.
I am with you OP. It took me 3 years to hit max level in WoW back in the day. I love the slow leveling myself.
Given we're talking about a computer, numbers are the only way to quantify character growth.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Do you have to quantify it?
Wouldn't it be the same as "gaining power" because you have more skill at playing the game and that is why "yesterday the goblin could kill me but today I defeated him?"
And isn't making a friend to help you kill the goblin also a form of growth/progression and thusly power?
Yes. Because people like quantification.
People want clear, unmistaken proof that their power has increased. If you friend help you kill the goblin, you really don't know if a) he is just humoring you, and won't help tomorrow (thus, your power is short live), or b) the goblin is weaker today and your friend is of no help. There may be out possibilities.
I miss spending a lot of time in one area, because it took so long to outlevel it. Even at low levels. I have a lot of fond memories of places like Unrest. MMOs these days, zones fly by so quickly, I feel like I have no time to really form much familiarity, or much of an attachment to them.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Isn't fear, uncertainty, and then the confidence from successive victories the very kind of emotional attachement many have been craving for their MMO experiences?
What's the fun if you know you are going to win every time because you got that broadsword of +1 goblin slaying yesterday?
MMO's should never use personal skill to measure progression. I think a lot of players are on this bandwagon due to GW2 but character progression should be about a lot more than how quickly you can kill something.
.
what i find 'odd' is that so many find themselves leveling too quickly. i don't. i never have really, except for once perhaps. i incessantly take my time, see the sights. follow the 'useless' side quests, craft, explore, etc.
for me i just always figured i sucked at leveling, but now i realize, its just how i play a game. slowly.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Interesting that no one has mentioned GW1 yet.
That game has actually only 20 levels, which you will usually hit at the end of the tutorial area (unless you are playing the original campaign, Prophecies, where the leveling was stretched out a bit).
After you hit 20, your stats, ie hp, number of attribute points, are fixed. Also! The gear had a max cap that was pretty easy to reach.
The only thing that changed after lvl20 were your skills on your hotbar, in that you still encountered skill trainers later in the game and had to capture elite skills from boss monsters. Atfter that, it just came down to what skills you put on your 8 slot hotbar and how well you used them.
Got an account just to post in thread and to say: nooooooooooo....
You shouldn't miss slow leveling, never, ever!!! We are throwing a pretty large amount of our lives through the windows with MMOs that people qualify as fast leveling, so I don't even want to imagine what it would be if leveling started to become slower.
Personally I just hate leveling. On WoW when I suddenly have the urge to play one of the high level dungeons with a caster, or try a new style for PvP all I have to do is sink 1 or 3 months of my life to satisfy this urge... GREAT!! Leveling is a wasted concept, a dividing one, I want to play with people, I want to try different style of play and not just get the kiddie version that low-level content is, when I roll an alt, I want to raid with him NOW, I want to do real PvP with him NOW, not in a week, not in a month, NOW.
You can like it or not, but this iis what MMORPG will tend to soon, not limiting the content the player can enjoy because of "levels". If the player want to get to the hardcore stuffs right away, let him, odds are he or she knows what he or she is going, and if not they learn the hard way.
Slow leveling is going the way of the dodo.
Slow leveling would be fine.
Empty gameplay (which characterized all the early MMORPGs I played) wasn't, and still isn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My point was more technical than abstract. To a computer it's all numbers. A computer does not understand terms like "power". Programmers give ideas like that concrete values.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
For me, it isnt just about my own personal levelling pace. It also has to do with the players around me, and getting to know people I group with. There was a time when I formed friendships with people, because we grouped together so often, because we were in the same areas so often. That just doesn't happen anymore, because of how quickly people speed through content.
I could slow down and just hang out twiddling my thumbs, but that won't bring back the sense of community that slower levelling can help support.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Bite your tongue.
Nah, seriously though....I only half agree with you, because see....I think the people that LIKE the leveling process need to be able to play the way THEY want to ALSO. Fair for all. I think games offering more and more and more CHOICES....are the way of the future.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I never did hit max level in Asheron's Call, though I had countless years of fun playing. Daoc It took me a while but I did get to 50. Then Darkness falls came and I had multiple 50's because on a MIdgard DF raid you could hit 50 in a day or so of the loop with help from a friend tagging everything. I loved both of those games, DAOC not so much after the Trials of Atlantis and New Frontiers, but when it was new and a few years out, it was fun as heck.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
MMORPGs should be part of adventuring and not the chaotic rush to the end game. That is my view and I didn't read through the entire discussion so I'm sure there are many more who beleive that like me. It use to take months to get to level 60 in Vanilla WoW and I miss that! I just starting Fallen Earth again. It is somewhat old school graphics but the game is very unforgiving in that there is no hand holding! I am enjoying the struggle to level!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I too like the slower strugle, i like the time you spent to get to know other players, and they knew who you were, you EARNED your place in the game, that ment something.
now days i doesnt matter with these MMO's
i kind of laugh and cry when i see people top out in a couple of days from launch, Devs and producers spend thousands of man hours to make the game, millions of dollars spent, some lifless yahoo with 60 bucks logs on and finnishes most of the game in 2 weeks,
oh well. maybe next game.
I think MMOs could progress a lot slower overall, to the enjoyment of most, but the fun things usually at the end of "max level themeparks" need to start at level 10 instead of 50, 60 or 80. It's not the players fault it's how the games are designed. I'd like to see about a 500% decrease in level speed but put things that matter from 1 to max.
Edit: The "sweet spot" IMO is when people don't really care how long it's taking them to level.
Just not worth my time anymore.
i personally think that slow leveling is just not fun anymore, but even so, if they brought it back the thing that needs to be done would be to add meaning to that leveling.
leveling to level, whether slow or fast is pointless if barely anything changes, if you slow the leveling down there better be skills and abilities to make up for the slog.
i suppose for me that was really the difference between everquest and say lineage 2, both had slow leveling but everquest had more stuff at the end of that leveling to make up for the slowness.
of course now i can't stand slow leveling really anymore, well as slow as everquest and lineage 2 anyway. i also don't really enjoy tor's leveling. there is no sense of accomplishment with tor, since you aren't doing anything but listening to people talk for a while.
i guess really i just want what i'm doing to mean something to my enjoyment of the game, it is part of the reason i couldn't stand doing AA, it never felt as concrete as leveling did, leveling was noticable.
I dont miss it, thats how Vanguard works.
I dont know how it compares to other games, but if you want to have remotely decent gear in Vanguard, you need to do dungeons, and those take quite some time.
There is a bit of rose coloured glasses involved in the nostalgia when it comes to MMOs, specially earlier ones, but even despite that, I agree, I miss the journey, and I know you can nowadays solo the whole game to max level and take your time, but that is not how it was before, hell even WoW in 2004 had an awesome leveling journey, there were people at all levels and in different areas you would always find something interesting somehwere, some pvp. People cared about things at all levels not just high level.
Then everyone got to 60 and it sort of went downhill from there till today, its not really specifically about slow leveling, its about allowing people to enjoy everything at their current level instead of being some sort of throw away content, you dont really care about. I remember when we had to farm low level instances to get lvl 20 or so Nature Resistance trinkets, that to me is fun.
Understandable. But wouldn't hiding the "behind the scenes" numbers give the same concrete effect with an increase in the abstract "feel" of the game?
I'm just arguing for the sake of discussion, I am a numbers person - I like stats and I like complex stat systems that require critical thinking, planning, etc.
^ This is the opposite mindset of the OP. It becomes clear in your post that you think all the good stuff is at the end, so why slow it down even more? Simple: Stop making "end-game" a goal at all.
Somewhere along the way it changed from it being simply about the journey to it being about hitting a finish line. Aion, for example, didn't do extremely well because of this mindset. People kept trying to rush to the end-game where all the fun is, only to be stopped time and time again by slow exp gain. A lot of the people that jumped ship did it because they didn't think they could have as much fun at 18 as they would at cap. If all you're thinking about is end-game when you're used to the current generation of MMOs then Aion would have made you want to pull your hair out and bitch-slap your grandmother.
I think older gamers are the opposite. All we really knew was the journey. Once you hit cap, you were basically done. Reroll or roll out. What I enjoyed about that however was a few things.
It promoted long-term friendships: You were toughing it out side-by-side which made you really appreciate those around you doing the same.
Risk required backup: This required friends willing to give up precious exp (Or something else of value) if things went south when trying to explore a new area none of you had been to yet.
It is always faster with a group: This has been one of those things I miss the most. Grouping wasn't an option in older games, it was a requirement. In an MMO, if you can do everything by yourself, why bother doing it with others? This current generation of games has been the biggest culprits of this.
There are many many other things that could be listed but those are just a few that stick out to me. I think the only way a game can severely slow down leveling at this point is to somehow make it VERY clear from the start that there is no end-game, it's all about the journey. If you try pulling that now with what gamers are used to, it's going to be ugly at best. I am sure the biggest argument will be "I don't have time for that shit! Get a life!".
My point: If you don't have the time to waste, why are you playing games at all? Since when did gaming become serious business that you HAVE to fit in between changing diapers and shoveling the drive? All of it is a time-sink and the best ones take years.
As always, it's just my opinion, don't take it to heart. And yes, I am rockin' my rose colored glasses.